> 2533274830420921;560:
> Same movement speed in halo infinite you must have.Classic gameplay is 100% a must like in halo 3,if they don’t bring classic gameplay it will be another -Yoink- halo 5 experience were in 6 months everybody sells there discs.
> BRING BACK CLASSIC HALO!!!
My thoughts exactly.
I make a pledge, I won’t buy Halo Infinite if sprint is in the game.
I am willing to put my money where my mouth is…
> 2535444702990491;550:
> > 2535416198868046;549:
> > > 2535444702990491;547:
> > > > 2535416198868046;544:
> > > > > 2535444702990491;532:
> > > > > > 2533274968707582;529:
> > > > > > > 2535444702990491;527:
> > > > > > > > 2535416198868046;526:
> > > > > > > > > 2727626560040591;525:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535444702990491;509:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
> > > >
> > > > I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.
>
> Sprint generates unique encounters that you’d otherwise not get when everyone moves around at the the same, solitary BMS.
>
> .
You’re talking as if these “unique encounters” are only made possible because of sprint, even though things like movement, positioning, and awareness have always been key aspects of Halo. I mean, it’s not like having one movement speed will forever lock players in an endless chase.
> 2533274830420921;560:
> Same movement speed in halo infinite you must have.Classic gameplay is 100% a must like in halo 3,if they don’t bring classic gameplay it will be another -Yoink- halo 5 experience were in 6 months everybody sells there discs.
> BRING BACK CLASSIC HALO!!!
Damn, I guess myself and loads of others didn’t get the memo to sell our game.
What is classic gameplay? Just Halo without sprint? If thats the case personally I’d like to play a game based of H2 rather than H3.
> 2533274885314026;563:
> > 2533274830420921;560:
> > Same movement speed in halo infinite you must have.Classic gameplay is 100% a must like in halo 3,if they don’t bring classic gameplay it will be another -Yoink- halo 5 experience were in 6 months everybody sells there discs.
> > BRING BACK CLASSIC HALO!!!
>
> What is classic gameplay? Just Halo without sprint? If thats the case personally I’d like to play a game based of H2 rather than H3.
Halo without any spartan abilities, including sprint.
> Literally what it says. What else is it supposed to mean?
Well you quoted it as if i said it, i only just realized that you were asking me to read the stuff outside of the quote first, oddly enough i did that anyway, either way it really wouldn’t matter if id did or not tbh.
> That’s such a no -Yoink- statement. What I was getting at was that there are still possibilities to mix-up and change the game while still feeling familiar, even if there isn’t as much room for different improvements and changes as before. You wrote “striving for halo 5 gameplay rules out the other possibilities” which is entirely false.
It isn’t false at all. Most things can, but the things that are making us butt heads namely sprint and clamber are not. You proposed a solution to split playlists to have 2 separate experiences happening simultaneously in another thread. No other popular game does this and based on what occurred in Reach, 4 and MCC i shouldn’t have to tell you how that will go down. The population is already paper thin compared to what we had in 2, 3 or even reach and i doubt it would of worked when Halo was at its most maximal population…Otherwise if the goal is to integrate both into 1 experience then it boils down to either 1 BMS or sprint which if sprint is chosen DOES rule out classic styled gameplay.
> What I meant was that, since the developers want their game to feel a certain way, you should criticize their game by comparing their statements with what the game actually provides, which we all have done at multiple points in time. Like I said, unless you clearly define what exactly you’re talking about when you say “Halo’s gameplay,” there will be misunderstanding.
Yet again i think i have at a basic level
the key statements 343 provided prior to the release of the game was a bigger push for competition and arena styled gameplay, if you look at any pre-release gameplay that was the biggest thing thrown around in regards to the multiplayer gameplay. You yourself agreed what constitutes arena styled play and i have provided in this thread how the game is not competitive or arena styled. Based on judging by what they said they wanted to achieve, i still believe they failed.
Also when i game design decision causes multiple youtubers with hundreds of thousands of views with high like ratios, twitch streamers making comments about how it’s not the same, population drops and weak retention, and dedicated forums for Halo being a place of constant divide i think it’s clear that it isn’t about defining old and new, it’s about recognizing that what is new, a notable chunk of people don’t consider Halo. ~7 years of divide, disdain and derision proves that point quite well.
> Most misunderstandings on this forum, and other places where Spartan Abilities are debated, isn’t from a lack of trying to understand. It’s from a lack of mutual understanding of what both parties are talking about. They’re debating about “Halo’s gameplay,” yes, but their definitions of “Halo’s gameplay” are not even remotely close to each other.
The point of frustration comes from the people making the claims that Halo needs sprint HAVE NOT given their definition of what halo is or should be in their multiple posts, the replies of mine and others are arguing that unless they’re provided, that their vague claims of “it’s needed” “it’s modern” “it wont be popular unless” have no base at all let alone one that isn’t being mutually understood.
> Obviously. You’re talking about the removal of sprint in Halo and why it doesn’t benefit Halo. However, your definition of “Halo gameplay” is very different from their definition of “Halo gameplay.” Unless you keep specifying what you’re exactly talking about to them, or you all reach a mutual understanding of vague terminoligy, then you’re going to keep going in circles with each other.
I would say my walls of text are point enough that i am trying to reach a level of mutual understanding by being specific, things like mechanic benefit may be lost in translation but things like “overly evasive”, “no good way to punish escaping”, “rewards defensive play”, “creates run or gun gameplay”, “makes maps harder to design and balance” “is a 1 button solution to many problems” etc aren’t vague or ambiguous in any way, shape or form I, and others too have explained further the grounds around those claims to make sure they’re thorough, still those points are straightforward.
Yet again like the last point they haven’t defined what Halo gameplay is, only that the game needs sprint. I already mentioned what they claim, classic gameplay being “slow”, “boring” etc and the arguing boils down to this…IF those are the things you feel Halo is then WHY is sprint the needed solution? you yourself claim that it’s false to rule out other possibilities so what is wrong with solving a problem with a different solution?..when we have provided examples of how that solution ALSO brings in a wide array of problems.
Since i can’t fit a reply to the whole post in i’ll cut it of there and give a reply to the other half in an hour or so.
> 2535440283237581;552:
> > 2535416198868046;551:
> > > 2535444702990491;550:
> > > > 2535416198868046;549:
> > > > > 2535444702990491;547:
> > > > > > 2535416198868046;544:
> > > > > > > 2535444702990491;532:
> > > > > > > > 2533274968707582;529:
> > > > > > > > > 2535444702990491;527:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535416198868046;526:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2727626560040591;525:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2535444702990491;509:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.
> > > > >
> > > > > There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable.
> > >
> > > The “Golden triangle,” isn’t destroyed because of sprint.
> >
> > Nothing should prevent you from shooting your weapon, performing melees, and throwing grenades at any time while running around the map. Sprinting prevents you from shooting your weapon, throwing grenades, and performing melees. This breaks the golden triangle of Halo.
>
> Sorry, but this is just wrong (and I’m a firm dissenter of sprint).
>
> There should be and are mechanics that limit players’ ability to shoot, throw grenades, and melee. You can run out of ammo, you can need to reload/let your weapon cool, you can only perform one of the three actions at once. Heck, you can’t even justify saying that no movement mechanic should or did affect the “triangle”, because that’s a huge part of vehicles.
>
> Don’t hold the classic combat trifecta as sacred. Just sensibly draw the line and say it should be preserved unless the suggested mechanic provides more depth than would be lost. It’s really that simple and sprint (among other “enhanced mobility” options) just doesn’t meet the criteria.
I’d also argue that running out of ammo, reloading and the like are drawbacks, they are there to make you more vulnerable and conscious of your gameplay. sprint serves as a greater level of power only used to give you an out of a situation you shouldn’t.
Personally i also believe “the golden triangle” is a bunch of nonsense, in that it doesn’t take into account items or power-ups, also nading and meleeing are not as important as guns. However they serve a purpose and having a bunch of actions (spartan abilities) which prevent these from occurring to give the player more defensive power at the cost of making them not viable or inferior to movement is not the answer, the defensive movement enhancements don’t serve the tactical depth of the gameplay.
> 2533274885314026;563:
> What is classic gameplay? Just Halo without sprint? If thats the case personally I’d like to play a game based of H2 rather than H3.
Generally speaking, it’s Halo where you spawn with the minimal set of abilities (i.e., like you spawn in the original trilogy), and any items that give you more power are found on the map. Beyond that, you probably get a lot of differing views on what items should spawn on the maps aside from the standard weapons and power-ups.
In any case, I think the important point is that the gameplay doesn’t need to be based on any particular game. Just like Halo CE and 2 (and Halo 3 slightly less), actually feel significantly different, so could any new game with classic gameplay. These games do many things a bit differently. I think some do some things better, and others do other things better, and there are some things I don’t think any game does in perfectly satisfactory way. That’s why I’d rather see a game that takes the best parts of each game, and improves on them, rather than being distinguishable as being based on any single game.
> 2533274836395701;566:
> I’d also argue that running out of ammo, reloading and the like are drawbacks, they are there to make you more vulnerable and conscious of your gameplay. sprint serves as a greater level of power only used to give you an out of a situation you shouldn’t.
To be honest, I think I could make the argument that reloading is not a necessary mechanic, and we think it is solely because we’re so used to it. It’s a fairly easy mechanic to learn when to use. For example, I think the “knowing when it’s safe to reload” is the same skill as “knowing when it’s safe to sprint”. Both rely on awareness. If we don’t care about the latter as an important part of gameplay, I don’t see why we should care about the former. Reloading also has drawbacks to gameplay, like artificially hindering a player who’s performing exceptionally and is up to some high multikill. Of course, I’d never expect it to resonate with any Halo fan.
> 2533274825830455;568:
> > 2533274836395701;566:
> > I’d also argue that running out of ammo, reloading and the like are drawbacks, they are there to make you more vulnerable and conscious of your gameplay. sprint serves as a greater level of power only used to give you an out of a situation you shouldn’t.
>
> To be honest, I think I could make the argument that reloading is not a necessary mechanic, and we think it is solely because we’re so used to it. It’s a fairly easy mechanic to learn when to use. For example, I think the “knowing when it’s safe to reload” is the same skill as “knowing when it’s safe to sprint”. Both rely on awareness. If we don’t care about the latter as an important part of gameplay, I don’t see why we should care about the former. Reloading also has drawbacks to gameplay, like artificially hindering a player who’s performing exceptionally and is up to some high multikill. Of course, I’d never expect it to resonate with any Halo fan.
Because of the killtime i think i could make the argument it’s always safe to sprint. In reach jetpack and evade especially really exposed sprint. Like in BTB sprint is nothing if used entirely in the open… by ascending high above cover or in evades case, catching up to sprint and able to kill the weak player by giving a quick burst of movement, many of the evasive tactics are kept in check.
In 4 i would say the overpowering of players through personal ordnance and always having SAWs, speedboosts, promethean weapons or damage boosts kept sprinting in check (by being broken)
In 5 i would argue all the spartan abilities aid sprint and are a catalyst to further allow the things it shouldn’t be doing, better. All players wanting to fight this just have to play by those same restrictions and chase using the same mechanics and be more vulnerable than the person who first initiated running away. Aside from sniper and explosive weapons nothing does well at keeping it in line, especially in 4v4 maps.
While you could remove reloading from utility weapons just fine i think, i feel the mechanic is a well awarded reprieve from power weapons. If reloading wasn’t a thing then what would you set the ammo capacity at? just the clip or higher? i think limiting a power weapon to just the clip or uncapping the ammo on things like rocket launcher or sniper or any power weapon could be bad for gameplay. Sword could work in Halo 2 with infinite ammo due to the close range restriction, even then i feel it’s better suited to an ammo capacity.
Players usually rotate into power weapons, go out of their way, cease playing against a team sometimes to pick it up. If a sniper only gave you 4 shots before replacing either there will be less sniping (if spawn time is kept the same) or more dead time picking up ammo (if it spawns quicker).
While you could do away with reloading i don’t think it would serve to benefit the gameplay established in Halo. Halo plays well with those little moments of vulnerability like switching weapons, picking up weapons, reloading or throwing a grenade, as it better -Yoink!- outplay and prioritization; like rock paper scissors. I don’t think an escape mechanic like sprint no matter how it is split, -Yoink!- in the nuance of confrontation or interaction with the opposing team like small pockets of vulnerability do.
@tsassi and @TheCelticDragon, I am working on replies to the posts that you two addressed to me, however it’s the beginning of my work week. I just want you to know I haven’t forgotten them, it just might take me a little bit.
The only thing in terms of abilities they should keep from Halo 5 is the clamber. I know that Halo has had a certain skill in getting to hard to reach places, but you could make a lot of really creative areas for hiding secrets, easter eggs, skulls and weapons with the clamber system.
And come on, a genetically enhanced super solider who can’t jump up a ledge…
> 2533274876601129;571:
> And come on, a genetically enhanced super solider who can’t jump up a ledge…
Yeah and come on, a genetically enhanced super soldier who can’t sprint…
> 2533274825830455;568:
> > 2533274836395701;566:
> > I’d also argue that running out of ammo, reloading and the like are drawbacks, they are there to make you more vulnerable and conscious of your gameplay. sprint serves as a greater level of power only used to give you an out of a situation you shouldn’t.
>
> To be honest, I think I could make the argument that reloading is not a necessary mechanic, and we think it is solely because we’re so used to it. It’s a fairly easy mechanic to learn when to use. For example, I think the “knowing when it’s safe to reload” is the same skill as “knowing when it’s safe to sprint”. Both rely on awareness. If we don’t care about the latter as an important part of gameplay, I don’t see why we should care about the former. Reloading also has drawbacks to gameplay, like artificially hindering a player who’s performing exceptionally and is up to some high multikill. Of course, I’d never expect it to resonate with any Halo fan.
I’d be interested in reading that argument. It’s something I’m rather on the fence about and probably have overlooked some aspects of the mechanic/it’s effects.
> 2533274876601129;571:
> The only thing in terms of abilities they should keep from Halo 5 is the clamber. I know that Halo has had a certain skill in getting to hard to reach places, but you could make a lot of really creative areas for hiding secrets, easter eggs, skulls and weapons with the clamber system.
>
> And come on, a genetically enhanced super solider who can’t jump up a ledge…
And the armor is a thousand pounds. You know how hard it would be to climb a ledge with a thousand pounds on your back?
> 2533274876601129;571:
> The only thing in terms of abilities they should keep from Halo 5 is the clamber. I know that Halo has had a certain skill in getting to hard to reach places, but you could make a lot of really creative areas for hiding secrets, easter eggs, skulls and weapons with the clamber system.
What creative areas/methods for hiding Easter eggs/collectibles would clamber allow that wouldn’t be possible without it? And do you really think collecting Easter eggs is a good justification to implement a mechanic that you admit detracts from skill-based movement?
> 2535444702990491;572:
> > 2533274876601129;571:
> > And come on, a genetically enhanced super solider who can’t jump up a ledge…
>
> Yeah and come on, a genetically enhanced super soldier who can’t sprint…
Terrible argument for both mechanics. One could just as easily say: “Come on, a genetically enhanced supersoldier who can’t climb walls/jump the height of those ledges or move at full speed while using their weapon…”
> 2535416198868046;574:
> > 2533274876601129;571:
> > The only thing in terms of abilities they should keep from Halo 5 is the clamber. I know that Halo has had a certain skill in getting to hard to reach places, but you could make a lot of really creative areas for hiding secrets, easter eggs, skulls and weapons with the clamber system.
> >
> > And come on, a genetically enhanced super solider who can’t jump up a ledge…
>
> And the armor is a thousand pounds. You know how hard it would be to climb a ledge with a thousand pounds on your back?
It makes you wonder how they are able to jump so high with a thousand pounds on their back, or carry the extra weight of a rocket launcher and a shotgun, along with the ammo.
Not to support advanced movement, but I don’t think this argument was ever really about how much a spartan can carry.
> 2535444702990491;572:
> > 2533274876601129;571:
> > And come on, a genetically enhanced super solider who can’t jump up a ledge…
>
> Yeah and come on, a genetically enhanced super soldier who can’t sprint…
-Halo gameplay follows lore
-i343 creates lore
Suddenly, a small lore implementation allows Spartans in their armor to move as fast as they can without ending up injured, and maintain full combat effectiveness ( not an actual quote );
"The Mjolnir MK7 has built in mechanical weights which move around the waist and chest along with leg algorithms, all of which allow the user to maintain top possible speed and have the upper torso free for other use, mainly combat.
Users have succesfully held consistent top speed without harm for the user, while the the same time been able to accurately hit all targets presented to them during multiple test runs."
On another note, a super advanced exoskeleton power armor with AI docking and controll which doesn’t have aim correction and auto targeting…
> 2535449076192416;576:
> > 2535416198868046;574:
> > > 2533274876601129;571:
> > > The only thing in terms of abilities they should keep from Halo 5 is the clamber. I know that Halo has had a certain skill in getting to hard to reach places, but you could make a lot of really creative areas for hiding secrets, easter eggs, skulls and weapons with the clamber system.
> > >
> > > And come on, a genetically enhanced super solider who can’t jump up a ledge…
> >
> > And the armor is a thousand pounds. You know how hard it would be to climb a ledge with a thousand pounds on your back?
>
> It makes you wonder how they are able to jump so high with a thousand pounds on their back, or carry the extra weight of a rocket launcher and a shotgun, along with the ammo.
>
> Not to support advanced movement, but I don’t think this argument was ever really about how much a spartan can carry.
Well, the “Spartans should be able to sprint” argument is about how they should be able to move, without regard for how that affects gameplay. It’s an appeal to “realism” when talking about a science-fiction video game and those that use this argument usually aren’t willing to fully commit it (for what I can only assume are gameplay-related concerns, which makes their position self-defeating).
However, I recently came across a user on Reddit who used this argument that broke this mold. After I offered a counter-point about how Spartans can walk over weapons/grenades and automatically pick them up without crouching, looking at them, or removing mags from duplicate weapons; they said they wished you did have to manually pick them up and that “realism is something to strive for”.
> 2533274795123910;577:
> “The Mjolnir MK7 has built in mechanical weights which move around the waist and chest along with leg algorithms, all of which allow the user to maintain top possible speed and have the upper torso free for other use, mainly combat.
>
> Users have succesfully held consistent top speed without harm for the user, while the the same time been able to accurately hit all targets presented to them during multiple test runs.”
>
> On another note, a super advanced exoskeleton power armor with AI docking and controll which doesn’t have aim correction and auto targeting…
Just goes to show that even for people who really want to justify sprint with superficial lore arguments, they don’t know much about the Halo universe to properly use them.
> 2535440283237581;578:
> > 2535449076192416;576:
> > > 2535416198868046;574:
> > > > 2533274876601129;571:
> > > > The only thing in terms of abilities they should keep from Halo 5 is the clamber. I know that Halo has had a certain skill in getting to hard to reach places, but you could make a lot of really creative areas for hiding secrets, easter eggs, skulls and weapons with the clamber system.
> > > >
> > > > And come on, a genetically enhanced super solider who can’t jump up a ledge…
>
> Well, the “Spartans should be able to sprint” argument is about how they should be able to move, without regard for how that affects gameplay. It’s an appeal to “realism” when talking about a science-fiction video game and those that use this argument usually aren’t willing to fully commit it (for what I can only assume are gameplay-related concerns, which makes their position self-defeating).
>
> However, I recently came across a user on Reddit who used this argument that broke this mold. After I offered a counter-point about how Spartans can walk over weapons/grenades and automatically pick them up without crouching, looking at them, or removing mags from duplicate weapons; they said they wished you did have to manually pick them up and that “realism is something to strive for”.
Well, following that logic, there shouldn’t be regenerating health and players should have to limp or crawl if they were shot in the legs without shields. You would eventually die if you ‘bleed out’ and treating those wounds would require a combat medic to perform a surgical operation on the field that would take several minutes, then send you to the hospital, where you’d eventually be sent home as a war veteran, and you’d never set foot in a warzone again. Sounds like a fun multiplayer experience 