The return of classic movement mechanics?

> 2533274804813082;5730:
> > 2535407747275549;5729:
> > Well the season 6 update for mcc just reinforces why halo doesn’t need sprint just increase the fov in video settings it feels soooo much better now
>
> FOV is good for field of view and the impression of moving faster, but it does not factually make you move faster. Sprint does, ergo a wider FOV doesn’t replace that function.

I don’t think anyone is arguing sprint does not make you move faster. As you can travel the same amount of distance, in terms of game units, in a shorter amount of time when sprinting, compared to when not. Additionally Sprint speed has consistently always been faster than the base movement speed of every Halo game. BUT how much does this factual statement even matter? We are talking about a virtual, simulated experience. There isn’t actually any physical distance being covered. All in game movement is being sold by animation and camera work. It’s all an impression.

To determine speed you first need a reference for scale, you could for example use Master Chiefs height for scale, in lore he is 7ft tall in armour. Ok so we have a reference. As a thought experiment say we shrink John’s character model, changing nothing else, keeping movement stats the same (in comparison to map scale), but in lore our reference height isn’t changed. Technically speaking john will be moving faster through the map. Simply lowering the camera position is all that would be needed to sell this perceived increase in speed. To take this further, if Master chiefs height was retconned in the lore to be 7.7ft tall, changing literally nothing else, technically speaking he would be moving faster through the same environment… because our reference dictates our translation of speed.

The crux of the whole ‘Sprint is an Illusion’ argument, is that Sprint being ‘faster’ doesn’t really matter. Maps are up scaled to accommodate sprint, combat isn’t any more frequent in games that include sprint… Sprint doesn’t necessarily make the game faster paced, pacing depends on many factors, and faster isn’t even necessarily better anyway. I do think a lot of sprint’s appeal is based on how it gives the impression of speed. Not the speed it’s self. The animation does a good job of selling the exertion of moving at speed, and the restrictions imposed by the mechanic do somewhat mimic the real life limitations of sprinting (helping sell the immersion of sprint).

A change in Field of View also can help sell the feeling of speed… so it isn’t really something that should be just outright dismissed in this discussion.

> 2533274797849057;5742:
> > 2533274804813082;5730:
> > > 2535407747275549;5729:
> > > Well the season 6 update for mcc just reinforces why halo doesn’t need sprint just increase the fov in video settings it feels soooo much better now
> >
> > FOV is good for field of view and the impression of moving faster, but it does not factually make you move faster. Sprint does, ergo a wider FOV doesn’t replace that function.
>
> I don’t think anyone is arguing sprint does not make you move faster. As you can travel the same amount of distance, in terms of game units, in a shorter amount of time when sprinting, compared to when not. Additionally Sprint speed has consistently always been faster than the base movement speed of every Halo game. BUT how much does this factual statement even matter? We are talking about a virtual, simulated experience. There isn’t actually any physical distance being covered. All in game movement is being sold by animation and camera work. It’s all an impression.
>
> To determine speed you first need a reference for scale, you could for example use Master Chiefs height for scale, in lore he is 7ft tall in armour. Ok so we have a reference. As a thought experiment say we shrink John’s character model, changing nothing else, keeping movement stats the same (in comparison to map scale), but in lore our reference height isn’t changed. Technically speaking john will be moving faster through the map. Simply lowering the camera position is all that would be needed to sell this perceived increase in speed. To take this further, if Master chiefs height was retconned in the lore to be 7.7ft tall, changing literally nothing else, technically speaking he would be moving faster through the same environment… because our reference dictates our translation of speed.
>
> The crux of the whole ‘Sprint is an Illusion’ argument, is that Sprint being ‘faster’ doesn’t really matter. Maps are up scaled to accommodate sprint, combat isn’t any more frequent in games that include sprint… Sprint doesn’t necessarily make the game faster paced, pacing depends on many factors, and faster isn’t even necessarily better anyway. I do think a lot of sprint’s appeal is based on how it gives the impression of speed. Not the speed it’s self. The animation does a good job of selling the exertion of moving at speed, and the restrictions imposed by the mechanic do somewhat mimic the real life limitations of sprinting (helping sell the immersion of sprint).
>
> A change in Field of View also can help sell the feeling of speed… so it isn’t really something that should be just outright dismissed in this discussion.

FOV is indeed a huge part of feeling fast. 105% base speed also works fine on halo maps (seeing as 110% mlg settings were also highly functional, but slightly too sweaty).
a slight weapons sway animation without recovery frames with the reticule staying up could be given to these last 5% speed when not firing the weapon, so it looks like sprinting. 105% speed and 90°+ FOV would then make for a pretty fast feeling game.
landing a crouch jump cpould be given a similar weapon bob without recovery frames when not firing, so it looks like climbing/ hard landing,

> 2535415744086631;5740:
> > 2535471015334583;5739:
> > > 2535449076192416;5734:
> > >
> >
> > Seriously, why are we all still talking about sprint and if it should be in the game or not. Sprint has already been confirmed almost a year ago now. That’s it
>
> Because a good portion of the population don’t want it in. Why are we still talking about playable elites?
>
> Generally speaking, most people who like sprint are casual players, and that’s fine. However they are more likely to jump to whatever the new flavor of the month is and drop Halo. That leaves the competitive/diehard fans having to deal with sprint even they’re not even the ones who wanted it in the first place.

The majority of the players who play Halo will not care. To say the “casual” halo players don’t care about sprint is completely false. I’ve been playing halo since Halo 2 and I personally love sprint. If Infinite doesn’t have sprint (which it already does and won’t be changing) I would never play it. Only the diehard fans like you said care about sprint. It’s a done deal, if you don’t like sprint don’t play the game because 343 will never remove sprint from Infinite.

> 2535471015334583;5744:
> If Infinite doesn’t have sprint (which it already does and won’t be changing) I would never play it.

This is such an odd thing to read. It seems extremely silly to me, to pin your entire enjoyment of Halo on a single mechanic. It just doesn’t feel sincere.

> 2533274804813082;5730:
> > 2535407747275549;5729:
> > Well the season 6 update for mcc just reinforces why halo doesn’t need sprint just increase the fov in video settings it feels soooo much better now
>
> FOV is good for field of view and the impression of moving faster, but it does not factually make you move faster. Sprint does, ergo a wider FOV doesn’t replace that function.

Sprint speed depends on how fast the devs make just like movement speed depends on how fast the devs make it. Are really saying this right now What logic is this ?. If what you just said is the case then by your logic doom is slower than cod or battlefield because those games have a sprint mechanic even though the sprint in those games isn’t actually all that fast.

> 2533274797849057;5742:
> > 2533274804813082;5730:
> > > 2535407747275549;5729:
> > > Well the season 6 update for mcc just reinforces why halo doesn’t need sprint just increase the fov in video settings it feels soooo much better now
> >
> > FOV is good for field of view and the impression of moving faster, but it does not factually make you move faster. Sprint does, ergo a wider FOV doesn’t replace that function.
>
> I don’t think anyone is arguing sprint does not make you move faster. As you can travel the same amount of distance, in terms of game units, in a shorter amount of time when sprinting, compared to when not. Additionally Sprint speed has consistently always been faster than the base movement speed of every Halo game. BUT how much does this factual statement even matter? We are talking about a virtual, simulated experience. There isn’t actually any physical distance being covered. All in game movement is being sold by animation and camera work. It’s all an impression.
>
> To determine speed you first need a reference for scale, you could for example use Master Chiefs height for scale, in lore he is 7ft tall in armour. Ok so we have a reference. As a thought experiment say we shrink John’s character model, changing nothing else, keeping movement stats the same (in comparison to map scale), but in lore our reference height isn’t changed. Technically speaking john will be moving faster through the map. Simply lowering the camera position is all that would be needed to sell this perceived increase in speed. To take this further, if Master chiefs height was retconned in the lore to be 7.7ft tall, changing literally nothing else, technically speaking he would be moving faster through the same environment… because our reference dictates our translation of speed.
>
> The crux of the whole ‘Sprint is an Illusion’ argument, is that Sprint being ‘faster’ doesn’t really matter. Maps are up scaled to accommodate sprint, combat isn’t any more frequent in games that include sprint… Sprint doesn’t necessarily make the game faster paced, pacing depends on many factors, and faster isn’t even necessarily better anyway. I do think a lot of sprint’s appeal is based on how it gives the impression of speed. Not the speed it’s self. The animation does a good job of selling the exertion of moving at speed, and the restrictions imposed by the mechanic do somewhat mimic the real life limitations of sprinting (helping sell the immersion of sprint).
>
> A change in Field of View also can help sell the feeling of speed… so it isn’t really something that should be just outright dismissed in this discussion.

Remember fov can also make the game feel way slower than it actually is as well so what he said cuts both ways.

> 2533274804813082;5730:
> > 2535407747275549;5729:
> > Well the season 6 update for mcc just reinforces why halo doesn’t need sprint just increase the fov in video settings it feels soooo much better now
>
> FOV is good for field of view and the impression of moving faster, but it does not factually make you move faster. Sprint does, ergo a wider FOV doesn’t replace that function.

Fov is also good at making the game feel slow what’s your point ? Sprint is also good at making people think they are moving fast when they probably aren’t.
"ship have you quarantined this invasive intelligence ?..yes…then prepare to terminate it im tired of this debate.

> 2533274801176260;5728:
> Time delay is still an ignoratio elenchi.

Ah, and we’ve entered this stage of online debate.

No, it is not an “irrelevant conclusion” fallacy, celestis. Namely in that I have not ignored - to the contrary, I have acknowledged - that there is this “separation” between going as fast as possible and firing your weapon.

My point with the “time delay” (actually the complete lack thereof, but small potatoes), is and was to address the complaint that Sprinting affects combat through this separation of movement modes. Which, as frequently pointed out, is completely mitigated by the immediate firing of your weapon. There is no 1-1.5 second delay where you are caught completely at a disadvantage, you are able to immediately return fire. The only difference is that you cannot return fire while also moving at max speed possible - a desire, not a need - which does not affect combat as has been claimed.

If anything, dismissing this with “Yeah, well, I can’t move as fast as I want to,” is an example of ignoratio elenchi, which as the article provides literally means “ignoring refutation”. My pointing out the absence of a time delay is refutation to the claim that Sprint affects combat by dividing the two movement modes. Your dismissal via the desire to move max speed at all times ignores this.

> I never said it did. On the contrary, I wanted to point out how it doesn’t provoke an emotional response, so you can stop wasting your time trying to force one out of me.

Your continued assertion that such is my motivation is a prime example of an invalid ad hominem argument. If this back-and-forth is to continue, you need to focus on my arguments (however much you disagree with them), not imagined and false assumptions about my motivation to p*** people off.

> My personal preference is irrelvant to this discussion. You refuse to accept that sprint changes the gameplay

No, your personal preference is entirely the point, as that is all that can be concluded there is. I have repeatedly acknowledged that Sprint changes gameplay. How many times have I identified it as a boost to base movement? That is a change. What I object to - and what still has yet to be proven - is that Sprint directly affects combat in a purely negative way.

Firing your gun in and of itself is not combat. If you just fire wildly into open air or at a wall, that’s not combat. Combat is an interaction between two-or-more players (or player-versus-AI). Sprint does not inherently damage this interaction any more than any other mechanic or exterior additive (such as Equipment). Thus far the only thing that can be conclusively said is that you cannot move at maximum speed possible while engaged in combat, which as explored is an issue of desire not detriment to combat itself. Because just as you can’t sprint and shoot, neither can your opponent.

> you keep on claiming that having sprint without a time delay is allegedly the same as not having sprint. Which is plain false.

And a plain Strawman argument. Nowhere have I made that claim, much less persistently.

> For the record, we haven’t even started talking about advantages or detriments to the overall gameplay,

I have, however, repeatedly asked for this. Don’t try and pin the inability to “discuss” these on me, celestis. If you have examples, put them forward. Because until you do I’m going to continue to assume that you have no argument outside your personal dislike of the Sprint mechanic. Others have been able to bring out examples (both specific and hypothetical) that we have been going over. You can do the same.

> Name one.

I have. Repeatedly. I’ve also outlined and given specific examples as to how having a temporary boost to movement is useful. I have also explained how and why saying that Sprint is a restriction in the manner that you are doing in this segment is inaccurate, and at worst knowingly misinformation. And demonstrated how pretty much anything can be spun so negatively. Point-by-point:

  • This is still a misrepresentation. 100% speed remains at 7.9 m/s (roughly 1 m/s faster than previous BMS). At 100% speed, Sprint is a 30% increase to that speed. What’s more, I increased my BMS to 200% in Halo Reach, Halo 4, and Halo 5, and in all three games Sprint was still an increase of that speed. Indicating that it is a boost to whatever the BMS is set to. Sprinting speed is not 100% speed locked away from you. - Yes, it does. That’s a part of the function of the mechanic, though you are able to turn. What’s more, you are still able to move omnidirectionally, only not at Sprinting speed - which again, is an incremental boost to BMS, and should be treated as separate. As such, saying that you are “locked” out of anything is a misrepresentation. To contrast this, a mechanic that does truly lock you in a single direction and doesn’t give you the option to end it whenever you want is Evade. - Incorrect and covered above; 100% BMS is 100% speed.

> Objectively pointing out the inherent nonsense of “just stop using it” is not the same as actively ridiculing it.

Say you’re driving a warthog. But then you want to use your weapon, or even switch to the gunner seat. Do you sit there and complain that the warthog has locked you out of omnidirectional movement and the use of your weapons, or do you get out of the warthog? It is the exact same thing, celestis. Countering this with a suggestion to “just manage the LS tilt” is ridiculing a viable and sensible solution that is readily applied elsewhere with an asinine and unreasonable parody.

> 2533274825830455;5741:
> Think of all the sections in Halo games that don’t have sprint that aren’t tedious. They’re not tedious not because you run any faster, but because they’ve been designed with less downtime.

Sometimes. Other levels and areas, such as the Library and Cortana, are packed with enemies. For myself, if I could have sprinted between cover in the multi-leveled room of Cortana that had tons of Pure Forms, I would have. Dealing with that room became tedious not through an overabundance of downtime, but because BMS isn’t optimal for running in between covers while getting barraged with shots from an out-of-range enemy.

> To repeat myself a bit more clearly: a movement mechanic should have an active role in combat, and it must not interfere with combat abilities. A movement mechanic whose use interferes combat abilities goes against the complementarity of movement and combat.

Only they all have. As we went over, Evade is incredibly limiting on player ability during its duration. Jet-packs limit direction and player speed, and in some control schemes can even make actions like aiming and reloading arduous. Over the games, the impact of these interferences with combat (when and if a player chooses to use them during combat) has been minimized in many ways that I have pointed out. With Halo 5, they are now able to compliment combat far easier; thruster packs can be quickly deployed to evade grenades, or to “backwards leapfrog” over an enemy trying to assassinate you from behind. Sprint cannot be activated while in active combat, either from taking or engaging fire.

As I am fairly certain I’ve said before, I understand your varying views as well they have been expressed. I disagree with them. Some things I have and will dismiss as easily as the numerous combat-adjacent uses for Sprint that I provided are dismissed with the absolute claim that Sprint isn’t compatible no matter how hard I try. That is, essentially, how a difference in preference is going to go. Factual issues that can be directly refuted with evidence is quite another, and for my part I have admitted when I was wrong, inaccurate, or mistaken. However I’m not going to just yield to fact-based and absolute claims unless they can be proven.

> > 2535441307847473;5725:
> >
>
> To cut to it, the reason I think the “impact on combat” is not a big a deal as it is being made is that the strongest factor is that you can’t move at the fastest speed possible and shoot. Only projectile weapons (moving at the speed they are) aren’t truly affected by this in any great and impacting way. Melee weapons are affected (either positively or negatively, your mileage may vary) as you’re able to get closer much faster, and catch players who aren’t aware of their surroundings off-guard far easier.

The buffs that melee weapons often receive through sprint are indeed concerning, but I never took much issue with them because even without sprint melee weapons can already give you a higher BMS, plus lunge distance plays a big role. When it comes to melee my bigger problem is with regular melee attacks which are at times more encouraged with sprint if you get found whilst reloading or are simply close enough that you can sprint forward and get two melee hits in before your opponent can shoot you to death. As for combat in general, you’re right, not being able to move at max speed and shoot at the same time is the biggest problem, especially given how readily and frequently available sprint is.

> > I’ve already stated that these examples are meant to show what the players abilities and tools are in a specific level or part of a level, and how the player can only engage with the tools that they have been given,
>
> This is what you’re saying now, yet persistently prior to this you’ve been attempting to discredit the usefulness of Sprint by saying that if The Devs want a level to take a certain amount of time to complete, then there is nothing a player can do to change it.
>
> Which really also doesn’t touch on the application of Sprint.

Yes and this is a part of that greater point, the player can only engage with the mechanics which have been given to them by the developers, they can choose to do a great many things with those mechanics, but those are the mechanics that they have been given. If the devs want something to take a certain amount of time, all they need to do is consider the tools and mechanics that the players have and build accordingly.

> > The key difference that I brought up with reloading was that it is always punishing, it doesn’t sometimes reward the player like sprint can.
>
> No, this is inaccurate still. If it takes two to three 114mm to drop a Field Marshall, and I’ve only got two in my magazine, if I reload my Sniper Rifle before taking my shot I have a better chance of taking that Sangheili down. I have been rewarded with combat readiness and improved odds for a kill.

No, reloading is still a downside here, you’ve simply given an example of how choosing when to reload can be beneficial in the sense that you are avoiding the inherent downside of reloading. If you reload your sniper rifle, you’ll be forced to make yourself unable to fire for a few seconds, both making yourself vulnerable, and taking your time (and possibly allowing the Field Marshal to get out of your sights), this is a consequence. If you instead had a beam rifle, you could similarly be punished by firing too fast and causing the rifle to overheat, pacing your shots with the beam rifle to avoid an overheat would not be a reward, but rather simply be the avoidance of the downside of an overheat, just like how landing those last two shots without missing would reward your shooting skills and avoid the downside of a preemptive reload.

> > I specifically explained the differences between jetpack and the grav lift already,
>
> Which boiled down to them not working exactly the same. Okay. And yet, the relationship between the two is clearly present in the function of upward mobility. As are the relationships between the other Equipment and Abilities that I pointed out. They do not have to function exactly the same to be a derivative, and evidence that those perks were brought over into later games and reimplemented.

Except Jetpack doesn’t just provide upward mobility, it also extends your horizontal “jump” distance significantly, allows you to slow your decent, and it allows you to essentially hover. Jetpack also only effects the player wearing it while the grav lift could lift almost anything. Even with similarities, the difference in implementation of these things make them function different enough to consider them different mechanics.

> > 2535441307847473;5726:
> > Indeed, you’ve attempted to downplay every negative aspect of sprint,
>
> And given that I’ve provided direct and specific examples to counter “what if” scenarios, I’d say that I have. Like “harping” on how you’re physically unable to just sprint out of combat to counter the “what if” that players can just “escape”. And again, if a player is able to take advantage of cover available to do that, chances are good you weren’t going to be able to kill them anyways.

And again, you haven’t even countered the escape problem by once again saying that “chances are good” that the player will get away, meaning that they sometimes will. You’ve made similar omissions with the other problems of sprint as well. Again, a good piece of cover doesn’t mean you’re safe, neither does a couple seconds where you haven’t been hit.

> The downsides of Sprint have been recognized, and this is not a measure to demean the disliking of Sprint. It is to illustrate how the issues are derived from personal enjoyment or lack thereof, not a symptom of a broken mechanic.

A flawed mechanic, one that brings with it specific downsides that do not need to be tied to speed inherently.

> > > as long as you acknowledge that they exist than it is dishonest to say that I and others simply have preferences.
> >
> > No, it is not. It is realistic, and this is why I brought in to compare several other mechanics that have equally impacting (sometimes more so) downsides to player agency and gameplay. To illustrate that everything in Halo has a tradeoff. It doesn’t matter that players spawn with sprint, because the downsides do not exist immediately and inherently. They exist circumstantially, and without specific examples they exist hypothetically, nothing more.
> >
> > More to the point, the only downside that I have stated is little more than a preference is the desire to be going “max speed” while firing. Which, as illustrated a little ways down, doesn’t offer any great benefit or advantage, even when everyone else is moving at full BMS.

The existence of other limitations in the game do not mean that additional limitations introduced through sprint or any other new mechanic are non-issues. The addition of more limitations should be tied to positive aspects which cannot be accomplished through other methods. When it comes to sprint, the two main benefits that it provides are a speed increase and an extra resource that can be tactically used by the player(which is not even inherently good). The thing is though, we know that there are other methods of both increasing speed and making map traversal easier that do not require the limitations of sprint, we also already have thrusters/evade that function as tactical choices for quick evasion and movement, although they do have similar issues as well, but not as severe. As it stands there are better ways of acquiring the positive aspects of sprint without having to deal with its limitations.
1/2

> > You’ve made some semantical arguments about sprint merely being a speed boost
>
> No. You and Celestis have tried to relegate it to semantics, if you want to bring up dishonesty in debate. Yet I have provided factual evidence[i/i] that the BMS has remained relatively the same, and Sprint has been added as an additional boost to that BMS. Viewing this as “locking away” max speed “unlike the classic games” is your perception, as the BMS was not dropped significantly below what Sprint would provide.

In my discussion with you I haven’t even argued about how BMS has changed over time, the only substantial comment on BMS that I can recall making was about how increasing BMS would be a better solution than sprint, but that any increase would have to be well tested and that I didn’t want it to reach DOOM levels. As for locking away max speed, this has nothing to do with perception, in a game with sprint, sprint represents the fastest speed (max speed) that the player can move at on foot, the fact that so many actions are not doable while sprinting shows how sprint locks max speed away from combat actions.

> > If there was a similar speed boost that allowed you to keep your gun up and move in all directions
>
> Like this? While the Speed Boost has temporary downsides of it’s own, it offers everything you’re wanting and then some.

For the most part yes, this is what I would rather see in Halo, although I would only want the player’s actual movement speed to be increased and not their reload speed, or weapon swap speed, and the speed increase itself would need to be less extreme, although how much it should be exactly I’m not sure of. I’m hoping that this can finally clear up some of our disagreements.

> > 2535441307847473;5726:
> > You also called this problem “hyperbolic” earlier, meaning that you know that it is an issue, just not one that you think matters much apparently.
>
> No, it means that I think it’s a hyperbolic issue. Meaning that you’re making more of it than is there. Nothing in Halo Matchmaking is ever guaranteed. Not a single thing. I could spawn a tank and be immediately hijacked and destroyed by an enemy who has nothing but a Plasma Pistol and one solitary grenade. Having the tank doesn’t guarantee me victory, and it would be just as hyperbolic to rail and wail that the Plasma Pistol is overpowered against vehicles and a cheap tactic that ruins the flow of vehicular combat.In equal measure it’s making a mountain out of a molehill to argue that Sprint negatively affects combat because people can run away. This has been shown to be quite difficult to pull off through stagger and shield freeze. Now we hear about the use of covers and corners, and then sprinting away. Yet cover and corners exist as obstacles for BMS as well, so it’s not Sprint that is letting players get away from you now, it’s the map itself.These things happen, and Sprint cannot logically be a scapegoat for that event.

“No, it means that I think it’s a hyperbolic issue.”
Which mean that you know its an issue.

“Meaning that you’re making more of it than is there.”
Meaning that you admit that there is something there.

“It would be just as hyperbolic to rail and wail that the Plasma Pistol is overpowered against vehicles and a cheap tactic that ruins the flow of vehicular combat”
This is an awful comparison, these are not base mechanics that affect the entire game, its not as if the plasma pistol is a standard sidearm on maps with vehicles (although the ability to choose the plasma pistol as a sidearm in Halo 4 did actually create this issue to some degree, which is why there was a vehicle perk which made EMPs wear off faster and one of the reasons for why loadouts were removed).
“This has been shown to be quite difficult to pull off”
Meaning that it can be pulled off, and simply being close to a piece of cover or a corner is not difficult at all. You could also have just started sprinting as you were attacked so you wouldn’t even need to be as close to any cover. We’re going in circles with this issue at this point.

> > You could easily drive a warthog around High Ground,
>
> Easily? Then why doesn’t it spawn? The Mongoose is slower than the Ghost, why didn’t they put a Warthog on the beach?

Yes easily, there may not be as much room as other maps but its enough. As for why it doesn’t spawn I’m not an ex Bungie developer but I’m pretty sure it has to do with balancing. You see High Ground is an interesting map in that instead of having both sides spawn with the same vehicles and equipment like normal, High ground instead gives each team a distinctly different starting setup. The team that spawns in the base gets a distinct defensive advantage with the wall and several weapons, the attacking team on the beach get more equipment and their own weapons to compensate for having to attack a fortified position. Given the asymmetrical balance of High Ground, I think its likely that giving a warthog to either side would have created a balancing issue, especially since the defending team are discouraged from using their vehicles because of the closed gate.

> > I will once again point out that BTB maps are huge and that they are far too large for foot travel alone and that vehicles make them playable.
>
> BTB maps are also very wide-open, allowing for a wider range of vehicles to take advantage of the playspace. As opposed to a Warthog or Scorpion being rendered ineffective to the point of detriment on a fully populated “High Ground” (more people than you alone in a Forge map driving around), BTB maps accommodate the size of the vehicles, not their speed. If speed was the issue, Warthogs and Scorpions would be on “High Ground”.

What exactly do you mean by “take advantage of the playspace” if not allowing vehicles to take advantage of their speeds? Vehicles wouldn’t need much space at all if they were slow, imagine how much the playstyle of BTB maps would be affected if the speeds of all vehicles were reduced to spartan speed, they would still take up and have the same amount of space, but they and the maps would suck because it would take forever to go anywhere. If speed wasn’t an issue, we would see lots of BTB sized maps without vehicles that didn’t suffer severe pacing issues.
2/2

> 2533274804813082;5750:
> Sometimes. Other levels and areas, such as the Library and Cortana, are packed with enemies. For myself, if I could have sprinted between cover in the multi-leveled room of Cortana that had tons of Pure Forms, I would have. Dealing with that room became tedious not through an overabundance of downtime, but because BMS isn’t optimal for running in between covers while getting barraged with shots from an out-of-range enemy.

See, herein lies the point you’re not seeing. What you’re really saying (that is; what you ought to be saying if you were thinking more broadly) is “the Halo 3 BMS isn’t optimal for the cover spacing and enemy layout on Cortana”. Because BMS, or movement speed in general, in a vacuum, is just a number. It only becomes meaningful when you put it into a level design context. If Halo 3 had a faster BMS, or if Cortana had a different level design with different geometry or different enemies, then this problem you’re describing wouldn’t exist.

As long as you criticize individual levels, you’re just criticizing level design. The argument you’re making actually has nothing else to do with sprint than your fixation on addressing the perceived issues by adding sprint.

> 2533274804813082;5750:
> Only they all have. As we went over, Evade is incredibly limiting on player ability during its duration. Jet-packs limit direction and player speed, and in some control schemes can even make actions like aiming and reloading arduous.

Your point being? I haven’t suggested Jetpacks anywhere. I haven’t said Evade dooesn’t interfere with combat abilities. I’ve merely hinted at it being a preferred alternative to sprint because it interferes less with combat abilities than sprint, and that brief pause could actually be done away with entirely.

You’re not saying anything of use by bringing up things that interfere with combat abilities, because I’ve already made my stance clear: movement mechanics should not interfere with combat abilities. If you manage to think of a movement mechanic that does, good for you. You can rest assured that I wouldn’t want it in a Halo game, at least not without modifications to address that issue.

> 2533274804813082;5750:
> As I am fairly certain I’ve said before, I understand your varying views as well they have been expressed. I disagree with them. Some things I have and will dismiss as easily as the numerous combat-adjacent uses for Sprint that I provided are dismissed with the absolute claim that Sprint isn’t compatible no matter how hard I try. That is, essentially, how a difference in preference is going to go. Factual issues that can be directly refuted with evidence is quite another, and for my part I have admitted when I was wrong, inaccurate, or mistaken. However I’m not going to just yield to fact-based and absolute claims unless they can be proven.

No. See, you think you understand, but you’re actually just happy to take a version that’s in your head and run with it, instead of wanting to understand how we see things. You’re not genuinely interested. How do I know? Because you’re not asking questions about our views. When we say something, your response is never a further question clarifying our perspective, an “Oh, I see now”, or “I’m not sure I understand”. It’s always just a very confident attempt at a rebuttal—regardless of what we say, regardless of whether there is anything to rebut—if you don’t already agree with it.

It has its consequence. You end up wasting time on some absurd positions. Like, did you ever stop to consider why you were so adamant about sprint covering more distance than Evade? If you were less adamant that we must be wrong about everything we say, you might have have picked up on it a bit faster.

Or right now, I’ve given you two things:

  • a definition: a movement mechanic whose use interferes with combat abilities does not complement combat - a verifiable fact: when a player starts sprinting, they lose their ability to shoot. Shooting being a combat ability (by definition), the use of sprint interferes with combat abilities.There is nothing to prove wrong here: 1 is just a definition, a bunch of words dressed up as some other words, and 2 is a well known fact that I hope doesn’t need demonstration. I’m sure you don’t disagree with 2, which leaves just 1. Of course, you don’t have to like my definition, but the fact that you can’t even see that it’s just a matter of definition, even when I explicitly told you so, is the problem here.

If you took a more open, interested, understanding approach, you wouldn’t need to waste so much energy on disagreeing with basic facts, trying to disprove definitions, or getting into weird semantic arguments about naval terminology with people.

> 2535471015334583;5744:
> > 2535415744086631;5740:
> > > 2535471015334583;5739:
> > > > 2535449076192416;5734:
> > > >
> > >
> > > Seriously, why are we all still talking about sprint and if it should be in the game or not. Sprint has already been confirmed almost a year ago now. That’s it
> >
> > Because a good portion of the population don’t want it in. Why are we still talking about playable elites?
> >
> > Generally speaking, most people who like sprint are casual players, and that’s fine. However they are more likely to jump to whatever the new flavor of the month is and drop Halo. That leaves the competitive/diehard fans having to deal with sprint even they’re not even the ones who wanted it in the first place.
>
> The majority of the players who play Halo will not care. To say the “casual” halo players don’t care about sprint is completely false. I’ve been playing halo since Halo 2 and I personally love sprint. If Infinite doesn’t have sprint (which it already does and won’t be changing) I would never play it. Only the diehard fans like you said care about sprint. It’s a done deal, if you don’t like sprint don’t play the game because 343 will never remove sprint from Infinite.

How are you so sure about what the majority wants? I never said casuals didn’t care about sprint. I said some of them would want it. I just don’t think you should focus your game solely around what the casuals want because they will drop your game as soon as something else gets their attention.

In the diehard/competitive/whatever crowd there isn’t as much of a split. They don’t want sprint. My point is that they are the ones who will be playing the game for years after release. They are also the ones who understand the game much better than most casual players. Why should they be stuck with mechanics that were not designed with them in mind?

I also never said that sprint would be removed from infinite. If 343 wants to go 3 for 3 with failed halo games that’s their prerogative. You asked why we are still talking about it and I answered you.

The only way I see infinite making sprint work is if everything else is solid. Halo 3 had god awful netcode/hit det/spread and it still worked because everything else was solid.

> 2535415744086631;5754:
> > 2535471015334583;5744:
> > > 2535415744086631;5740:
> > > > 2535471015334583;5739:
> > > > > 2535449076192416;5734:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Seriously, why are we all still talking about sprint and if it should be in the game or not. Sprint has already been confirmed almost a year ago now. That
> >
> > I also never said that sprint would be removed from infinite. If 343 wants to go 3 for 3 with failed halo games that’s their prerogative. You asked why we are still talking about it and I answered you.
> >
> > The only way I see infinite making sprint work is if everything else is solid. Halo 3 had god awful netcode/hit det/spread and it still worked because everything else was solid.

Sprint is the sole reason the games ‘failed’? That’s hilarious. As if it wasn’t a plethora of other issues. But if what you’re saying is true, 343 should remove it for the dwindling low-pop of diehard fans? Here’s a very rough approximation: do you think 343 wants to remove a feature to appease 1000 concurrent players, or leave the feature to appease 10000 concurrent players? Which one makes sense to you?

I’m not fussed either way if it stays or goes, but unfortunately a lot of casual and non-competitive players want their modern FPS to feel modern. Sprint is one of those mechanics.

Player retention will last longer with mechanics the average player enjoys which means more money spent on the game via mtx or word of mouth. This is also going to be the first Halo game for a lot of people and they cannot alienate by missing out on what the average FPS player expects.

Perhaps 343 could make non-sprint lobbies/playlists/MM for the diehard fans.

> 2533274802257936;5755:
> Here’s a very rough approximation: do you think 343 wants to remove a feature to appease 1000 concurrent players, or leave the feature to appease 10000 concurrent players? Which one makes sense to you?

This is a really bold assumption that there are more people who explicitly want sprint than don’t want sprint when we have nothing that shows in either direction.

> 2533274802257936;5755:
> I’m not fussed either way if it stays or goes, but unfortunately a lot of casual and non-competitive players want their modern FPS to feel modern. Sprint is one of those mechanics.

That giant argument up there that I’m a bit afraid to participate in would kinda show that it wouldn’t be based on a simple number to be the difference between “modern” and “not modern.” Especially since most people struggle to explain what “modern” is, when they use a 20 year old mechanic as a shining example.

I bet if I were to say that Spartan Charge felt more modern than sprint to me, their tune changes.

> 2533274802257936;5755:
> > 2535415744086631;5754:
> > > 2535471015334583;5744:
> > > > 2535415744086631;5740:
> > > > > 2535471015334583;5739:
> > > > > > 2535449076192416;5734:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Seriously, why are we all still talking about sprint and if it should be in the game or not. Sprint has already been confirmed almost a year ago now. That
> > >
> > > I also never said that sprint would be removed from infinite. If 343 wants to go 3 for 3 with failed halo games that’s their prerogative. You asked why we are still talking about it and I answered you.
> > >
> > > The only way I see infinite making sprint work is if everything else is solid. Halo 3 had god awful netcode/hit det/spread and it still worked because everything else was solid.
>
> Sprint is the sole reason the games ‘failed’? That’s hilarious. As if it wasn’t a plethora of other issues. But if what you’re saying is true, 343 should remove it for the dwindling low-pop of diehard fans? Here’s a very rough approximation: do you think 343 wants to remove a feature to appease 1000 concurrent players, or leave the feature to appease 10000 concurrent players? Which one makes sense to you?
>
> I’m not fussed either way if it stays or goes, but unfortunately a lot of casual and non-competitive players want their modern FPS to feel modern. Sprint is one of those mechanics.
>
> Player retention will last longer with mechanics the average player enjoys which means more money spent on the game via mtx or word of mouth. This is also going to be the first Halo game for a lot of people and they cannot alienate by missing out on what the average FPS player expects.
>
> Perhaps 343 could make non-sprint lobbies/playlists/MM for the diehard fans.

I literally said that if they leave in sprint, but nail everything else infinite could still be successful. Every Halo that has forced “modern” mechanics (aka gimmicks) has been a huge flop.

Of course the competitive community is dwindling. They are being given games with mechanics they don’t enjoy. Why is Halo so unpopular now then? Shouldn’t it be number 1 seeing as how it has slowly but surely been injected with these “modern” mechanics?

Point is these other games that 343 keeps trying to copy use these mechanics better. Spint by itself isn’t terrible. It works in other games. We have seen now though that it simply does not work in relation to Halo’s other mechanics and gameplay.

Those 10000 players you asked about? Yeah they dropped H5 the minute something else came out. If 343 could make a Halo game that actually feels like a Halo game then you would see a lot more than the initial 1000 players.

Halo is different. You’re not going to attract new players by trying to forcefully inject mechanics that aren’t conducive to the gameplay people already enjoyed and played Halo for.

And no you can’t just make a playlist for the old fans. Reach tried that and look how that turned out. Ideally you want a game that is both fun and competitively viable at the same time. The original trilogy was able to do this because those games were fun at any skill level without sacrificing gameplay.

> 2533274794648158;5745:
> > 2535471015334583;5744:
> > If Infinite doesn’t have sprint (which it already does and won’t be changing) I would never play it.
>
> This is such an odd thing to read. It seems extremely silly to me, to pin your entire enjoyment of Halo on a single mechanic. It just doesn’t feel sincere.

Sorry but I don’t feel like walking throughout Infinites huge open world. In games like Halo 2 and 3 it’s okay but with this new vast open world I’m not putting up with it

> 2535415744086631;5754:
> > 2535471015334583;5744:
> > > 2535415744086631;5740:
> > > > 2535471015334583;5739:
> > > > > 2535449076192416;5734:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Seriously, why are we all still talking about sprint and if it should be in the game or not. Sprint has already been confirmed almost a year ago now. That’s it
> >
> > I also never said that sprint would be removed from infinite. If 343 wants to go 3 for 3 with failed halo games that’s their prerogative. You asked why we are still talking about it and I answered you.

So sprint is the reason the last two games failed and why Infinite will fail? You’re hilarious.

> 2535471015334583;5758:
> > 2533274794648158;5745:
> > > 2535471015334583;5744:
> > > If Infinite doesn’t have sprint (which it already does and won’t be changing) I would never play it.
> >
> > This is such an odd thing to read. It seems extremely silly to me, to pin your entire enjoyment of Halo on a single mechanic. It just doesn’t feel sincere.
>
> Sorry but I don’t feel like walking throughout Infinites huge open world. In games like Halo 2 and 3 it’s okay but with this new vast open world I’m not putting up with it

I’m fairly certain Infinite’s open world design philosophy won’t mean walking massive distances on foot, that’s just bad level design. There’s always gonna be a vehicle or something to get you to the next fight in a satisfactory amount of time.

If you consider 343’s apparent inspiration for the open world design, CE’s Halo and Silent Cartographer missions, you’d see that most of the ‘open’ parts of those levels are always traversed by warthog, while the on-foot segments are sized according to your base movement speed and play more like ‘regular’ missions. It worked perfectly fine without sprint, as map size didn’t affect the pacing.

‘Open world’ does not mean every single area you encounter is some massive plane you have to slowly trod across to reach your objective. Even if sprint is present, it wouldn’t make those kinds of sections any more tolerable, because they’re still long periods of walking in a straight line. If the game is to be enjoyed, those sections should simply not be there.

> 2535471015334583;5759:
> > 2535415744086631;5754:
> > > 2535471015334583;5744:
> > > > 2535415744086631;5740:
> > > > > 2535471015334583;5739:
> > > > > > 2535449076192416;5734:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Seriously, why are we all still talking about sprint and if it should be in the game or not. Sprint has already been confirmed almost a year ago now. That’s it
> > >
> > > I also never said that sprint would be removed from infinite. If 343 wants to go 3 for 3 with failed halo games that’s their prerogative. You asked why we are still talking about it and I answered you.
>
> So sprint is the reason the last two games failed and why Infinite will fail? You’re hilarious.

No, but it had a hand in it.
Like I said sprint alone is fine. It just doesn’t work in Halo. Having it changes important aspects of the game like map design and gunplay.

It’s also super disingenuous to call the base movement speed walking. We aren’t asking for a slower game. By having a fast base movement speed and a higher fov you can achieve the same outcome without changing critical components of the game.

You asked why people are still talking about sprint, but don’t seem at all interested in actually taking the time to understand why.