The return of classic movement mechanics?

> READ THE STUFF OUTSIDE THE QUOTE FIRST. I MESSED UP THE QUOTES AGAIN…

What is that supposed to mean?

> Not really. Striving for gameplay that has a similar flow and feel to whatever just released means that that game’s style still has room for improvement, whatever that may be.

Any idea can be improved, the whole debate on classic vs new Halo arose because the game didn’t follow a similar feel or flow. I don’t see what you’re trying to get at here.

> Even so, the designers purposefully designed the game to be that way. You can’t change that. Like you’re saying, the only thing you can do is criticize the in-game mechanics with what the developers have said they want out of the game.

I mean yea, same things applies to anything and everything that you don’t have a first-hand involvement in. That’s the point of a forum, to discuss, criticize, put forward and debate. A voice can be heard if there is a consensus, most of the changes applied to H4, MCC and the right stick problems in 5 were a response by 343 to fan complaints and criticisms. I’m making a case and spending effort so that the next game doesn’t get made with those intentions, in the same way I and many others argued against what was in 4 or others argue for games they dislike in other game series, they don’t like X for Y reason, i’m simply asking those that want A to give their reasoning as to why. I feel those wishing for a return to classic mechanics have given ample reasoning in relation to how it affects gameplay, i feel a misunderstanding at this point is in a lack of trying to understand, not the reasoning provided.

> Of course it isn’t vague, but when a debate starts, everyone is constantly thinking for themselves and their position, and not really clarifying what exactly they are talking about.

I’m stating if you read posts by the select people who have multiple anti-sprint replies in this thread you could come to a pretty clear conclusion as to what we’re talking about. Most of the discussion is anchored around sprint and clamber, i have read the thoughts and positions of people for sprint and i don’t see the same level of clarification of how it brings a positive contribution to gameplay. 343 Aimed to bring customizable loadouts, personal ordnance and global ordnance to Halo 4. Preference aside how do these additions affect the gameplay, are they a good inclusion? is the question. I think how they affect the gameplay is an objective reality and are they worth including is reliant on what you want out of the game, all players who are clearly anti-sprint state it creates evasive, stop / start, cat and mouse gameplay unlike any other halo game and that sprint and extensions of sprint are not worth having in future titles.

> This isn’t important, but that’s basically what I suggested to “evolve” Halo, whatever that means, while bridging both pro and anti-sprint together. AAs as top-tier map pickups instead of spawns.

The competitive community already did this though, we had jetpack and evade as pick-ups in reach after fighting for 15 months to get the option to choose no bloom, no armour abilities. In 4 until we could get rid of personal ordnance there was settings to choose from jetpack, hardlight shield and hologram. The fundamental issue i see is the anti side is not willing to budge on 1 BMS and would prefer a less is more approach, the pro side seems to want the antithesis of that.You and evilkeny mean well and can argue a point clearly, if what you suggested was a reality it would tick my box definitely, the argument arises when people who are staunchly for sprint and either AAs or spartan abilities off-spawn argue against the idea of 1 BMS and less off spawn. That is the main dichotomy with the fandom.

> I never intended for the post to be a start to another debate

I don’t think it’s about starting a debate as having the mentality and reasoning understood. Balanced force and RaginPagan make many claims about what sprint does without really giving clear idea on what the mechanic does to the game or the rationale for its inclusions or why the anti-sprint proposal wouldn’t solve any qualms they were having.I have read all posts and i am still unclear what they want out of the game or what advanced movement brings to the experience.
they say they don’t want slow -> raise BMS
they say it needs to be modern -> why are the most popular games 5-10 years old with few changes, what is modern with a mechanic older than halo
they say the old formula is boring -> likewise i find the new stuff boring since it’s so needlessly complex and evasive, what element is boring? it’s vague
they say they like a temporary speed boost -> why not put a speed gate or platform on map or a thruster / evade pickup?
1 BMS and less off spawn doesn’t have such easy alternatives.

> It would create Arena Shooter gameplay by default, which is what Halo is, but not the original trilogy’s gameplay specifically unless you further define other aspects of gameplay as well, which you have done earlier in the reply. Doom and Quake fit that questionable definition, but they wouldn’t classify as Halo-style games would they?

No because those games further deviate to differentiate themselves, if 1 BMS and barebones spawns are like halo, then 5 deviates before it ticks that box, unlike quake and doom.Also i do read everything before i break it apart line by line, i just choose to isolate it that way.

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> > > > > > > > As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chaos is why. If the abilities are all that matters to you then Minecraft should naturally give you X-Ray vision to help you get that extra ore.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Clamber is ok…
> > > > > > > Sprint is ehh, better if it’s slowed right down.
> > > > > > > Ground pound is wtf is this a fighting game.
> > > > > > > Spartan Charge is no. Sumo wrestling insta-AR kill please no.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Halo isn’t Super Smash Bros or Crisis. Let it be Halo.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If it’s all these abilities that is what makes Halo good enough for you then you obviously don’t enjoy any other aspects of the game enough to satisfy playing it which means you’re sold on “what hot new ability” will make it in first person shooters next rather then the game for what it is. You may of played every Halo game and been a vet. But I doubt you have that much of an idea about what you’re talking about.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your highest CSR ever is a diamond 1.
> > > > > > > Your rank is 75/152 3 years in.
> > > > > > > You’ve only played 2 days of Arena and warzone 3 years in.
> > > > > > > You have lower game time then 90% of the players I still see online.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’m pretty tired of people who self proclaim to be vets of Halo when they hardly play the game but profess their love for the way it is and believe that they know the direction it should go. I still play this game every day and I still have problems with it. If your argument has anything to offer substantially other than the fact that these abilities increase the “fun” or “immersion” you have then you’ve already lost the argument because that’s not what makes Halo great. It’s so much more than this and its depth is so misunderstood.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).
> > > > >
> > > > > I love it when idiots resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.
> > > >
> > > > It doesn’t necessarily invalidate any points/opinions he gave, it just doesn’t help anything and is generally unbecoming.
> > >
> > > It does. He is one of the people who thinks developers should only listen to pro players aka the 1%. Developers have to take into account that the majority is a casual gamer and they want to have fun. That isn’t to say they should completely ignore the competitive player base but rather find a balance that
> >
> > The stat-flaming isn’t what makes that belief problematic is it? That’s what I’m saying.
> >
> > Argumentative points stand or fall of their own accord. Demeaning others (including stat-flaming and calling others “idiots”) doesn’t change how good or bad a point is.
>
> No but believing the game should revolve and evolve around the opinions of the 1% is a pretty piss poor argument to stand on to begin with.

The points gone way over your head. First off if you read my initial post you would understand that there’s multiple arguments; not just one. Two what is offensive and not offensive is manipulatable and depends on what someone would regard as offensive to themselves. Three I’m not supporting the ideals of the 1% rather the simple fact that the direction of the mechanics and “evolution” of them has become unecessary and I would say has alienated a significant portion of the population and has done a lot of other negative things too.

More complexity to the mechanics doesn’t = fun, otherwise games like Arma 3 would be the most popular game today.

You’ve got to remember that the mastery of the mechanics in Halo are dependent on the skill of the average player. And if an average player can’t wrap their head around ground pound and spartan charge of which increase the situational chaos in gameplay then they will despise it, especially if the prior games were simple and effective.

Short sight.

If you cannot play the game without ground pound and spartan charge then you full stop, whoever you are obviously do not support Halo for it’s own unique arena experience but rather which gimmicky mechanic or feature persuades you to buy the game next. Which is literally every sales ploy performed by marketing teams and game studios in the last 5-6 years. But you know what studios like this keep doing; copying each other. So this style of development will keep up as long as this short sightedness, instant-gratification seeking short attention spaned players buy games simply for their gimmicks insteand of their story and depth of strategy.

People in this generation are fed up with mediocrity, microtransactions and the lack of an a realistic “evolution” to a lot of games Call Of Duty included. The animosity in the community is obvious. And you shouldn’t be as stubborn as to ignore a potential improvement for your own ideals. Even I played Halo 4 and 5 to death, even MCC with all their flaws but I still wanted them to improve and change. So yeah you might call me the 1% in that regard.

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> > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.

I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.

I Do not think that 343i remove all mechanics of Halo 5, but im happy if they keep Sprint, thruster and climbing, and if think about it those mechanics will be useful for exploring (well without the 10 sec countdown)

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> I Do not think that 343i remove all mechanics of Halo 5, but im happy if they keep Sprint, thruster and climbing, and if think about it those mechanics will be useful for exploring (well without the 10 sec countdown)

Yeah but sprint breaks the golden triangle of Halo which on one side of the triangle represents weapons and on the side grenades and the other side melee. This triangle represents that each side synergize and work together in symmetry and nothing should prevent players from performing these 3 things. Sprint breaks the golden triangle of Halo because when you sprint, you have to lower you weapon and that prevents you from shooting your weapon. It also prevents you from throwing grenades, performing melees, and stops your shield from recharging. Climbing would also break the triangle because you would have to put your weapon away so you wouldn’t be able to shoot, throw grenades, or melee. Unless you mean climbing the way you could on Battle Creek in Halo:CE where climbing has no animation and you can still shoot, melee, and throw grenades while climbing, I guess that could work or you could just use grenade jumps to get higher or they could add grav lifts from Halo 3 into the game. The golden triangle of Halo is what makes Halo a Halo game and when you break it you don’t have a Halo game. This is most of the recent Halo games don’t feel like Halo. If 343i wants to make a true Halo game that feels truely like Halo, they need to get rid of spartan abilities and sprint. Thrusters are used mainly to throw your opponent’s aim off which you could easily do by jumping from side to side so thrusters aren’t really needed.

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> > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
>
> I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.

There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Avalanche was an example of a massive map from Halo 3 which was so boring to be stuck walking across (and being reliant on vehicles, teleporters, and grav lifts are not the answer. Players routinely camp the other side lifts and teleporters, which expose and funnel you in one fixed direction. Map design shouldn’t be reliant on vehicles either, because they either 1) spawn too infrequently and/or 2) are OP, especially when there are too many of them)

Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable. Sprint blossomed unique combat encounters which support and enhance gameplay in Halo.

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> > > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
> >
> > I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.
>
> There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable.

Sprint isn’t RNG, valuable or otherwise.

That aside, “valuable” RNG in a skill-based FPS? Do you find knowing how many shots will kill you/your opponent to be “boring and repetitive”? Do you think it’d be better if there was RNG at play to determine each shot’s damage?

Players could move at varying speeds (or not at all) in the OT. You could predict the fastest speed and route players could take and react accordingly (throwing an anticipatory grenade, as you said) but that can be done with sprint as well.

Sprinting doesn’t necessarily make the game less predictable (players are going to sprint unless they’re in the middle of or anticipating a fight), but less engaging. You have to disengage from combat to sprint.

I’m still waiting for an answer to why/how you prefer or think the game benefits from having to lower your weapon and become restricted to forward movement just to traverse the map optimally.

Also, really? Using terms like “suffered”, “liberated”, and “freed” after telling me I was being too dramatic (and not saying how)?

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> > > >
> > > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
> >
> > I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.
>
> There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable.

I don’t remember anybody tossing grenades across the map to kill you in Halo 3. People used to do that in COD but not Halo. Sprinting makes Halo unbalanced because in Halo multiplayer, everyone is equal, we all have the same amount of grenades, ammo, movement speed, etc. Throw sprint into the mix then you have some spartans moving really fast and some moving slow while shooting. This creates two different styles of gameplay when movement is supposed to the be same in Halo but in Halo 5 you have the running around part of Halo and the shooting part which makes the game inconsistent in scenarios of who sees who first. Let’s say one player is sprinting and one isn’t, the one who isn’t sprinting can put the first shot into the other player who is sprinting and clearly has the advantage because the player who is sprinting is going to have to slow down to start shooting. This is not the way Halo is meant to be played. Believe it or not, Bungie was actually planning on adding sprint into Halo 2 but scrapped it because it made the game unbalanced and tampered with the golden triangle of Halo.

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> > > > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
> > >
> > > I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.
> >
> > There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable.
>
> I don’t remember anybody tossing grenades across the map to kill you in Halo 3. People used to do that in COD but not Halo.Sprinting makes Halo unbalanced because in Halo multiplayer, everyone is equal, we all have the same amount of grenades, ammo, movement speed, etc. Throw sprint into the mix then you have some spartans moving really fast and some moving slow while shooting. This creates two different styles of gameplay when movement is supposed to the same in Halo but in Halo 5 you have the running around part of Halo and the shooting part which makes the game inconsistent in scenarios of who sees who first. Let’s say one player is sprint and one isn’t, the one who isn’t sprint can put the first shot into the other player who is sprinting and clearly have the advantage because the player who is sprinting is going to have to slow down to start shooting. This is not the way Halo is meant to be played. Believe it or not, Bungie was actually planning on adding sprint into Halo 2 but scrapped it because it made the game unbalanced and tampered with the golden triangle of Halo.

The “Golden triangle,” isn’t destroyed because of sprint. Sprint is a temporary boost to movement and everyone gets those same exact movement abilities so it balances itself out. Dropping your weapon to move faster for a little bit is a risk/reward decision that can either help you get from point a to point b faster (possibly to gain an advantageous position before your opponents and/or power weapons) or sprinting might end up working against you if you leave yourself exposed. Sprint generates unique encounters that you’d otherwise not get when everyone moves around at the the same, solitary BMS.

Also from a map design perspective, it would be better for Halo if they increase the map sizes and player count. To do this, they really can’t be hampered down with creating shortcuts, grav lifts, and teleporters on every single map just to support slower and repetitive basic movement mechanics. The answer is simple- sprinting helps make larger maps work without being hampered into forcing one single BMS to work with cheap substitutes.

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> > > > > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
> > > >
> > > > I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.
> > >
> > > There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable.
> >
> > I don’t remember anybody tossing grenades across the map to kill you in Halo 3. People used to do that in COD but not Halo.Sprinting makes Halo unbalanced because in Halo multiplayer, everyone is equal, we all have the same amount of grenades, ammo, movement speed, etc. Throw sprint into the mix then you have some spartans moving really fast and some moving slow while shooting. This creates two different styles of gameplay when movement is supposed to the same in Halo but in Halo 5 you have the running around part of Halo and the shooting part which makes the game inconsistent in scenarios of who sees who first. Let’s say one player is sprint and one isn’t, the one who isn’t sprint can put the first shot into the other player who is sprinting and clearly have the advantage because the player who is sprinting is going to have to slow down to start shooting. This is not the way Halo is meant to be played. Believe it or not, Bungie was actually planning on adding sprint into Halo 2 but scrapped it because it made the game unbalanced and tampered with the golden triangle of Halo.
>
> The “Golden triangle,” isn’t destroyed because of sprint. Sprint is a temporary boost to movement and everyone gets those same exact movement abilities so it balances itself out. Dropping your weapon to move faster for a little bit is a risk/reward decision that can either help you get from point a to point b faster (possibly to gain an advantageous position before your opponents and/or power weapons) or sprinting might end up working against you if you leave yourself exposed. Sprint just generates unique encounters that you’d otherwise not get when everyone moves around at the the same, solitary BMS.

Nothing should prevent you from shooting your weapon, performing melees, and throwing grenades at any time while running around the map unless you run out of ammo or grenades. Sprinting prevents you from shooting your weapon, throwing grenades, and performing melees. This breaks the golden triangle of Halo.

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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don’t remember anybody complaining about not being able to sprint back during Halo 3. I do remember a lot of people who were pissed off that sprint was added into Halo during Halo Reach. You act like not having sprint in Halo was so horrible and that you were being tortured because you didn’t have sprint.
> > > >
> > > > There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable.
> >
> > The “Golden triangle,” isn’t destroyed because of sprint.
>
> Nothing should prevent you from shooting your weapon, performing melees, and throwing grenades at any time while running around the map. Sprinting prevents you from shooting your weapon, throwing grenades, and performing melees. This breaks the golden triangle of Halo.

Sorry, but this is just wrong (and I’m a firm dissenter of sprint).

There should be and are mechanics that limit players’ ability to shoot, throw grenades, and melee. You can run out of ammo, you can need to reload/let your weapon cool, you can only perform one of the three actions at once. Heck, you can’t even justify saying that no movement mechanic should or did affect the “triangle”, because that’s a huge part of vehicles.

Don’t hold the classic combat trifecta as sacred. Just sensibly draw the line and say it should be preserved unless the suggested mechanic provides more depth than would be lost. It’s really that simple and sprint (among other “enhanced mobility” options) just doesn’t meet the criteria.

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> > So all i ask, like the people who staunchly defended infinity settings and the additions of 4, is 1 reason where it mechanically benefits the gameplay, that couldn’t benefit more without it being there.
>
> I think the bold part is most likely where we get issues when discussing the topic of sprint. Everyone knows that Spartan Abilities benefits Halo 5’s gameplay, based on what 343 was going for in their interviews and ViDocs, but we also have an intuition that these new abilities would never work in most of the maps in the original games. When two people on differing sides discuss gameplay, they’re coming from completely different angles, because no one ever defined what “gameplay” both parties wanted to talk about. One may assume they are talking about Halo 5’s gameplay, or gameplay in general, while the other is talking about the OG trilogy’s gameplay. Anti-sprinters usually always imply that they are speaking about the original trilogy’s gameplay rather than stating that they are talking about the original trilogy’s gameplay. Everyone should probably make that clear in the future. I don’t know if this is the right analysis, though.
> I’m also waiting, xBalancedForcex, for your response. I figure I won’t push for it anymore, apart from this last time. It’s fine if you don’t have any answers or responses to my reply.

I would’ve thought that there’s no problem with the word “gameplay”. I mean, I thought everyone would be on the same page that it just means the way the game plays in the abstract. That is, “gameplay” is the collection of tactics and strategies that arise from the mechanics of the game. And when we talk about gameplay, unless otherwise specified in context, we mean it in the abstract, not the gameplay of any particular Halo game.

With that said, I guess “mechanically benefits the gameplay” can be a confusing phrase without the sufficient context. It’s certainly not self-explanatory, and I would say the issue is with it not being clear what it means to “mechanically benefit” gameplay. I’m obviously not TheCelticDragon, but I think what he uses the phrase synonymously with “increase the tactical depth of gameplay”, or “increase the skill gap”. In any case, that’s what at least a large subset of the opponents of advanced movement are usually interested in: the effect of mechanics on the skill content of the game.

> 2535464451695009;539:
> Yes, the main topic of this thread is Classic Halo, but when any debate starts, we really need to start to define what we mean when using vague terms, like gameplay and map flow, so neither debater becomes confused or “dense” to any arguments presented. Also, no one should reply line-by-line to a statement unless the deeper message of that statement is clear.

I agree, but it’s always easier said than done. You won’t even know what the confusing terms are, until someone brings up their own confusion. You won’t know before-hand what terms come up. This is a strange situation where the subject hasn’t been formalized in anyway or form, but it would be incredibly helpful if it was.

> 2535444702990491;547:
> There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable.

Just FYI: the initialism RNG stands for “random number generator”, and means an algorithm that generates a sequence of random numbers. In the recent years more and more people in the gaming community have mistaken it as a synonym for “randomness”. If you want to talk about randomness, just use the word “randomness”. Save RNG for discussion about actual algorithms for generating random numbers.

With that out of the way, I like to make an additional distinction between game generated randomness , and player generated randomness. The first is any randomness that arises from an actual RNG somewhere deep in the game’s coding. The second is randomness that arises purely from the actions of players. (Also note that by “randomness” here I mean events that no one can in practice predict with 100% certainty.) The reason to make this distinction is that many people fall into two categories: they either shudder at any mention of randomness, or (less often) think that all kinds of randomness is good. However, the reality is that player generated randomness is, to some extent, necessary in any competitive game, because the depth of games relies on players trying to make moves that won’t be predicted by their opponents. Game generated randomness, on the other hand, is always harmful, because it’s practically impossible for one player to predict it better than another player, so it contributes nothing but annoyance to players trying to compete.

However, with that said, player generated randomness is only good up to a point. Too much of it and it becomes too easy for players to behave so unpredictably that no one can predict their actions better than anyone else, at which point it becomes detrimental just like game generated randomness. There is a Goldilocks zone for player generated randomness, where gameplay depth is maximized, and allowing players to behave any less predictably, or making their behavior any more predictable will both decrease the amount of depth.

At any rate, the claim that sprint allows players to behave less predictably than having a single maximum speed is false. The reason for that is that, as far as player movement is considered, the only mechanic-dependent thing that affects its unpredictability is how far the player can move in a given amount of time. This, in turn, only depends on the maximum speed at which the player can move. Therefore, if you replace sprint with an equally fast BMS, player movement will be no less predictable.

Of course, in reality we would not replace sprint by an equally fast BMS, but would resort to something lower. However, it’s still not true that the faster speed of sprint implies less predictable player movement, because the predictability is also dependent on map geometry. Many paths that can’t be simultaneously observed from a single location will generally make player movement less predictable than many paths that can be observed from a single location, or just a few paths. For this reason, predictability of player movement is not decided by mechanics, but is a parameter that can be tuned by the map designer, and varies for any given map.

> 2535444702990491;547:
> > 2535416198868046;544:
> > > 2535444702990491;532:
> > > > 2533274968707582;529:
> > > > > 2535444702990491;527:
> > > > > > 2535416198868046;526:
> > > > > > > 2727626560040591;525:
> > > > > > > > 2535444702990491;509:
> > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > As I’ve stated before, the classic Halos were good because of a multitude of other factors to include character development, good story telling, better MP maps, etc. Sprint was a long awaited mechanic that finally liberated us from that same old pace. Simply put, we didn’t really know what we were missing out on until sprint finally made its debut in Halo with Reach.
>
> There were plenty of us who found that one walking pace was slow, repetitive, and boring. Avalanche was an example of a massive map from Halo 3 which was so boring to be stuck walking across (and being reliant on vehicles, teleporters, and grav lifts are not the answer. Players routinely camp the other side lifts and teleporters, which expose and funnel you in one fixed direction. Map design shouldn’t be reliant on vehicles either, because they either 1) spawn too infrequently and/or 2) are OP, especially when there are too many of them)
>
> Sprint set us free from one BMS, along with adding (valuable) RNG in the way of no longer being able predict exactly how long it takes for your opponents to be able to move from their spawn locations. In the old Halos people used to even toss grenades across the map to kill you as you were moving out of your spawn without being able to see you! That’s because one BMS is too predictable. Sprint blossomed unique combat encounters which support and enhance gameplay in Halo.

Regarding the first paragraph: how does sprint resolve the issues you mentioned? If players are funneling you towards a specific direction, it’s to their own advantage. How does sprint resolve that advantage? To me their simply making you take the longer route and kill you once you get there, with sorint you’re just “speeding” up the process. If people are controlling the other ways of transportation, get them off it, if you can’t sprint isn’t going to fix that and you’re still going to be funneled towards one direction.

regarding the second paragraph: RNG is fine if one cares little for competitive play, unpredictability is not something that fits competitive play. Furthermore what I’m not getting is how 1. How people dislike the lack of sprint 2. Which would then make me assume you’d sprint off spawn if you dislike going slow and 3. The opposing player simply needs to learn the distances traveled when sprinting off spawn to spawn kill cause spawn kill is definitely still a thing in halo. Movement speed won’t resolve that, all it takes is a team that can control your spawn to force you to spawn in a specific area, once that’s down they can accurately assume you’re spawning where they want you to and get the easy kill, that’s how spawn killing works, it’s based on map knowledge and how well you can team work to force it. You’re only avoiding this issue if the another team quite simply isn’t good enough to force it.

I mean, wasn’t the point of sprint to go fast and get back in the action faster? So why would one then use BMS off spawn to do what they disliked about the lack of sorint? You could sprint or not sprint, but if someone KNOWS how the map spawns work, you’re not getting out of that aside from killing them and taking away their control of the map. Halo 5s maps are small enough that a spawn killer can actually watch you as you spawn and kill you (I’ve done it, I’ve been on the receiving end and I’ve seen it), they don’t need to be in a scenario where they can’t see you to do it so what good would unpredictability be in that case?

spawn killing itself won’t be resolved based off any movement be it sprint or BMS, it’s more resolved by map design, team composition and how the teams play it out. Smaller the map and the more you get your -Yoink- kicked, the easier it is to do, the bigger it is, the harder it is to do but it’s still possible if you’re getting your -Yoink- kicked.

> 2533274923562209;554:
> unpredictability is not something that fits competitive play.

But it absolutely is. Or what do you think players are trying to accomplish by strafing? Or why getting inside the opponent’s head is so important? Trying to behave unpredictably is a significant part of any competitive game, and thus facilitating unpredictable behavior to some extent is absolutely essential. A game where every player always knows the other player’s moves is not a competitive game at all. The role of unpredictability in competitive play is not that it should have no role at all, but that unpredictable behavior should be a skill that separates players from each other.

For more on the role of randomness in games and the impact of sprint on it, and also for the meaning of “RNG”, see my previous post.

> 2533274825830455;555:
> > 2533274923562209;554:
> > unpredictability is not something that fits competitive play.
>
> But it absolutely is. Or what do you think players are trying to accomplish by strafing? Or why getting inside the opponent’s head is so important? Trying to behave unpredictably is a significant part of any competitive game, and thus facilitating unpredictable behavior to some extent is absolutely essential. A game where every player always knows the other player’s moves is not a competitive game at all. The role of unpredictability in competitive play is not that it should have no role at all, but that unpredictable behavior should be a skill that separates players from each other.
>
> For more on the role of randomness in games and the impact of sprint on it, and also for the meaning of “RNG”, see my previous post.

:woman_shrugging:t2: Maybe I could’ve said there can be to much randomness. My point was adding things for the sake of being random isn’t really good for competitive play as you’re adding more elements a player has to take into consideration, hence how there can be to much randomness. Where that line of “to much” is can be debated.

lets pretend they add jet packs back into halo, would you think that’d contribute to more unpredictability? Not only can players strafe, thruster, bash the crouch button or bunny hop, now they can have more verticality to their movements when it comes to avoiding fire.

Then for movement around a map you have your normal way of moving via sprint or BMS, vehicles, jet packs, teleporters, lifts/man cannons, wall runnng, and lets add hooks to latch to ceilings and swing across a map. Would that be to much to you? To me there’d be to much crap going on to account for, especially if there’s a lot of players.

Of course if competitive play isn’t the goal then it won’t matter much.

as for my misuse of RNG, I tend to stick to it if another poster does simply to keep it simple as I get what they’re meaning. I’m aware of what RNG is as I’ve played grinders before.

> 2533274923562209;556:
> > 2533274825830455;555:
> > > 2533274923562209;554:
> > > unpredictability is not something that fits competitive play.
> >
> > But it absolutely is. Or what do you think players are trying to accomplish by strafing? Or why getting inside the opponent’s head is so important? Trying to behave unpredictably is a significant part of any competitive game, and thus facilitating unpredictable behavior to some extent is absolutely essential. A game where every player always knows the other player’s moves is not a competitive game at all. The role of unpredictability in competitive play is not that it should have no role at all, but that unpredictable behavior should be a skill that separates players from each other.
> >
> > For more on the role of randomness in games and the impact of sprint on it, and also for the meaning of “RNG”, see my previous post.
>
> :woman_shrugging:t2: Maybe I could’ve said there can be to much randomness. My point was adding things for the sake of being random isn’t really good for competitive play as you’re adding more elements a player has to take into consideration, hence how there can be to much randomness. Where that line of “to much” is can be debated.
>
> lets pretend they add jet packs back into halo, would you think that’d contribute to more unpredictability? Not only can players strafe, thruster, bash the crouch button or bunny hop, now they can have more verticality to their movements when it comes to avoiding fire.
>
> Then for movement around a map you have your normal way of moving via sprint or BMS, vehicles, jet packs, teleporters, lifts/man cannons, wall runnng, and lets add hooks to latch to ceilings and swing across a map. Would that be to much to you? To me there’d be to much crap going on to account for, especially if there’s a lot of players.
>
> Of course if competitive play isn’t the goal then it won’t matter much.
>
> as for my misuse of RNG, I tend to stick to it if another poster does simply to keep it simple as I get what they’re meaning. I’m aware of what RNG is as I’ve played grinders before.

Maybe what you’re trying to point out is a depth vs complexity issue… or at least that’s what it seems like to me. I’ve felt that H5 pushed that envelope too far, despite having a hard time explaining why I feel that way.

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Same movement speed in halo infinite you must have.Classic gameplay is 100% a must like in halo 3,if they don’t bring classic gameplay it will be another -Yoink- halo 5 experience were in 6 months everybody sells there discs.
BRING BACK CLASSIC HALO!!!