> 2533274804813082;5507:
> > 2533274815533909;5500:
> > Jumping from Red bridge to Blue bridge on coliseum
>
> Going from bridge to bridge is too far even with sprint. Did you mean blue yard to red yard? A short cut, and also possible without sprinting; I managed it with a simple jog and jump. Didn’t even clamber.
>
>
>
>
> > jumping from e2 to Tower 2 in the rig
>
> I haven’t a clue what you mean by “E2”, but the second level of Tower Two is able to be reached without sprint, and even without clamber. Not only have I play tested these just now to see what you’re on about, this one in particular I utilize all the time.
>
>
>
>
> > jumping from top mid to arch to rockets in coliseum…
>
> Top Mid to… the arch above either bridge? If that’s what you meant, it’s possible without sprinting. From that arch to rockets is also too far, even with sprint.
>
> You’re not providing examples of where Sprinting is necessary for these maps, only a function of tactics. Which more speaks in favor of applications of Sprint. And, again, if Sprint is necessary to reach a “Trick Area” or path, then it is akin to super-jump location on Halo 2 maps, or the areas of Headlong only reachable by Banshee, or getting on top of the rock spire in Blood Gulch via Banshee.
>
> Every map in Halo 5 can be played without using Sprint, in the same way that Headlong and Blood Gulch can be played without Banshees. Which isn’t to say that either are useless or shouldn’t be included, as they offer just one more experience to the sandbox.
>
>
>
>
> > When was I comparing anything? I was merely stating that the maps and Halo 5 are designed around using the sprint animation.
>
> Aside from when you brought up DOOM/Eternal, Overwatch and Valorant? Oh, no, no that was it. Also it’s more than an animation. It factually ads two to three mph to your speed.
>
>
>
>
> > We’re not talking about advanced movement. last time I checked this thread it was about the sprint animation not advanced movement.
>
> You might not be; I am. Also this thread was about a return to “Classic Movement”. Which involves Advanced Movement, and AM has cropped up quite frequently throughout. But again, comparing Halo to other games that operate completely different is a poor argument. That they’re FPS games is completely irrelevant; Skyrim is an FPS game, and I’m fairly certain you’d agree that Skyrim and Halo are nothing the same. Not to mention if we are to bring out every single FPS game on the modern market - comparable in the same timeframe to Halo 5 - the number of FPS games that utilize Sprint will far outweigh four that do not.
>
>
>
>
> > You implied that newer games all use the sprint animation and ones that don’t are “old”
>
> No, I’ve stated that Sprint as a movement mechanic has become a standard across the FPS genre, and even many Third Person Games. I’ve stated that Halo has progressed to keep up with a growing and fast-paced experience, and in my opinion wishing for bygone “Classic” days is a wasted endeavor. But nowhere have I said anything so ridiculous that the omission of a movement mechanic makes a game “old”. Time makes a game old, and even old games like Fable (2004) benefited from sprint.
>
>
>
>
> > If you weren’t aware, it’s the sprint ANIMATION that people have an issue with. As it does not allow you to move and shoot at the same time.
>
> Y’know, I’ve seen the inability to move and shoot more than I have the animation be an issue. But go ahead and tack on one more issue that boils down to opinion. And yes, Sprint removes your ability to move and shoot. Just like dual wielding removed your ability to use grenades. Yet both literally take less than a second to cancel or revert. The “problems” presented by Sprint as a mechanic are minimal at most, and opinion-based at least.
> 2533274824125565;5519:
> Also: What is the likelihood that 343 even cares/acknowledges this thread exists?
Nil.
Just like they didn’t care/acknowledge the sprint discussion in the previous 10+ years.
At least not enough to actually do something about it.
Afair they mentioned sprint being controversial in one of their H5G development videos (which were ironically titled “the sprint”, just to add insult to injury) but never said anything about actually addressing the community’s issues with it.
So yeah, their stance on this issue is and always has been: “We know, but we don’t care.”
it would be very interesting (and maybe enlightening) to see which people favor faster gameplay/advanced movement agewise
i would bet there would be a clear separation between younger and older players.
> 2533274793250636;5524:
> it would be very interesting (and maybe enlightening) to see which people favor faster gameplay/advanced movement agewise
> i would bet there would be a clear separation between younger and older players.
Well let’s see here. I’m young, grew up with the newer halos but also play lots of the older ones. But I’m a fan of older movement plus sprint. Reach did Sprint wrong, but get this, I think H4 did sprint perfectly. I wish Infinite had H4 movement. No clamber or slide, jus sprint and maybe H5’s thrusters idk. But not all younger players like the newer, advanced movement.
> 2535436557871072;5525:
> > 2533274793250636;5524:
> > it would be very interesting (and maybe enlightening) to see which people favor faster gameplay/advanced movement agewise
> > i would bet there would be a clear separation between younger and older players.
>
> Well let’s see here. I’m young, grew up with the newer halos but also play lots of the older ones. But I’m a fan of older movement plus sprint. Reach did Sprint wrong, but get this, I think H4 did sprint perfectly. I wish Infinite had H4 movement. No clamber or slide, jus sprint and maybe H5’s thrusters idk. But not all younger players like the newer, advanced movement.
I’m 51 (sigh). Halo player from nigh on day dot.
I love advanced movement in Halo (except Spartan charge).
There is half a dozen or so guys the same age in my Tuesday night Halo group with similar thoughts.
Engagements are much more interesting with two different speeds (at least initially), thrusters, and slide. Clamber is a much more satisfying mechanic than crouch jumping etc. And I really, really, really don’t want to go back to the plodding and monotonous static map control dominated games of Haloes 2 and 3 (especially with 3’s feeling of running through treacle).
> 2585548714655118;5526:
> > 2535436557871072;5525:
> > > 2533274793250636;5524:
> > > it would be very interesting (and maybe enlightening) to see which people favor faster gameplay/advanced movement agewise
> > > i would bet there would be a clear separation between younger and older players.
> >
> > Well let’s see here. I’m young, grew up with the newer halos but also play lots of the older ones. But I’m a fan of older movement plus sprint. Reach did Sprint wrong, but get this, I think H4 did sprint perfectly. I wish Infinite had H4 movement. No clamber or slide, jus sprint and maybe H5’s thrusters idk. But not all younger players like the newer, advanced movement.
>
> I’m 51 (sigh). Halo player from nigh on day dot.
>
> I love advanced movement in Halo (except Spartan charge).
>
> There is half a dozen or so guys the same age in my Tuesday night Halo group with similar thoughts.
>
> Engagements are much more interesting with two different speeds (at least initially), thrusters, and slide. Clamber is a much more satisfying mechanic than crouch jumping etc. And I really, really, really don’t want to go back to the plodding and monotonous static map control dominated games of Haloes 2 and 3 (especially with 3’s feeling of running through treacle).
Even if it isn’t fundamentally Halo?
> 2535458188883243;5527:
> > 2585548714655118;5526:
> > > 2535436557871072;5525:
> > > > 2533274793250636;5524:
> > > > it would be very interesting (and maybe enlightening) to see which people favor faster gameplay/advanced movement agewise
> > > > i would bet there would be a clear separation between younger and older players.
> > >
> > > Well let’s see here. I’m young, grew up with the newer halos but also play lots of the older ones. But I’m a fan of older movement plus sprint. Reach did Sprint wrong, but get this, I think H4 did sprint perfectly. I wish Infinite had H4 movement. No clamber or slide, jus sprint and maybe H5’s thrusters idk. But not all younger players like the newer, advanced movement.
> >
> > I’m 51 (sigh). Halo player from nigh on day dot.
> >
> > I love advanced movement in Halo (except Spartan charge).
> >
> > There is half a dozen or so guys the same age in my Tuesday night Halo group with similar thoughts.
> >
> > Engagements are much more interesting with two different speeds (at least initially), thrusters, and slide. Clamber is a much more satisfying mechanic than crouch jumping etc. And I really, really, really don’t want to go back to the plodding and monotonous static map control dominated games of Haloes 2 and 3 (especially with 3’s feeling of running through treacle).
>
> Even if it isn’t fundamentally Halo?
It’s true to my (subjective) definition of what is Halo.
> 2533274801176260;5523:
> > 2533274824125565;5519:
> > Also: What is the likelihood that 343 even cares/acknowledges this thread exists?
>
> Nil.
> Just like they didn’t care/acknowledge the sprint discussion in the previous 10+ years.
> At least not enough to actually do something about it.
> Afair they mentioned sprint being controversial in one of their H5G development videos (which were ironically titled “the sprint”, just to add insult to injury) but never said anything about actually addressing the community’s issues with it.
> So yeah, their stance on this issue is and always has been: “We know, but we don’t care.”
ah yes, lets all jump on the "we dont care stance. Everything is considered in development. Sprint has been in halo for the majority of its life. You can not like it, but removing doesn’t fulfill a purpose outside of making older fans happy when it comes to their view on gameplay flow (I share a lot of these views by the way). Concessions need to be made, and they have done so in a variety of ways (art, removal of abilities, adjustment of equipment etc). Lets not assume everything is about them not caring cause what you want isnt the route they are going
> 2533274840624875;5529:
> > 2533274801176260;5523:
> > > 2533274824125565;5519:
> > > Also: What is the likelihood that 343 even cares/acknowledges this thread exists?
> >
> > Nil.
> > Just like they didn’t care/acknowledge the sprint discussion in the previous 10+ years.
> > At least not enough to actually do something about it.
> > Afair they mentioned sprint being controversial in one of their H5G development videos (which were ironically titled “the sprint”, just to add insult to injury) but never said anything about actually addressing the community’s issues with it.
> > So yeah, their stance on this issue is and always has been: “We know, but we don’t care.”
>
> ah yes, lets all jump on the "we dont care stance. Everything is considered in development. Sprint has been in halo for the majority of its life. You can not like it, but removing doesn’t fulfill a purpose outside of making older fans happy when it comes to their view on gameplay flow (I share a lot of these views by the way). Concessions need to be made, and they have done so in a variety of ways (art, removal of abilities, adjustment of equipment etc). Lets not assume everything is about them not caring cause what you want isnt the route they are going
I don’t think he’s saying “343 never even considered removing sprint because they don’t care”, it’s more the fact that there is clearly something beyond its gameplay value that keeps sprint as a higher priority than other similar mechanics that got the axe. What that something is is never fully explained so a lot of it is left to guesswork or assumptions.
You say that removing sprint doesn’t fulfill a purpose, other people will just say adding it as a base ability didn’t fulfill a purpose either. Sprint is here for the majority of Halo’s lifespan, but there were talks to remove sprint when it was a “new” ability, and the response was “let it grow on you!” It’s a grandfathered in ability where attempts to remove it is somehow harder than any other mechanic to date in this series, good or bad.
We’re going into Halo Infinite and some of the suite of abilities are left on the chopping block for unexplained (and most likely won’t be explained) reasons. What made one concession (keep sprint, remove thrust) better than another concession (remove sprint, keep thrust)?
Individual 343 employees (current and former) had differing opinions on sprint, and the company as a whole was only “contentious” nearly a decade ago. Neighbor said the game plays perfectly fine without sprint. Sketch believes those advocating against sprint are “exhausting.” Josh Holmes I believe likes the faster pace.
> 2533274833081329;5530:
> > 2533274840624875;5529:
> > > 2533274801176260;5523:
> > >
>
> You say that removing sprint doesn’t fulfill a purpose, other people will just say adding it as a base ability didn’t fulfill a purpose either. Sprint is here for the majority of Halo’s lifespan, but there were talks to remove sprint when it was a “new” ability, and the response was “let it grow on you!” It’s a grandfathered in ability where attempts to remove it is somehow harder than any other mechanic to date in this series, good or bad.
>
> We’re going into Halo Infinite and some of the suite of abilities are left on the chopping block for unexplained (and most likely won’t be explained) reasons. What made one concession (keep sprint, remove thrust) better than another concession (remove sprint, keep thrust)?
>
> Individual 343 employees (current and former) had differing opinions on sprint, and the company as a whole was only “contentious” nearly a decade ago. Neighbor said the game plays perfectly fine without sprint. Sketch believes those advocating against sprint are “exhausting.” Josh Holmes I believe likes the faster pace.
Kind of my point in many ways. The opinion on sprint is always gonna vary. As you mentioned, it does have some form of priority in the current development mindset (mainly being it allows for additional movement systems that can only exist cause of sprint ie sliding). You are correct that we don’t know what their mentality is currently with sprint and I do think it would be better for them to come out and explain it. Who knows, maybe they will.
From my perspective, they removed various abilities that seem to be either over-tuned and or can exist outside of the player (thrust can be moved to an equipment piece) and kept sprint giving it gave players ways to initiate various other movement systems (slide, spring jump etc). I don’t like sprint as a whole but I think much of the argument of sprint becomes focused on the movement itself and not how it’s used as a tool to initiate other combat systems (some of which are not intentional).
343 at the end of the day found themselves stuck between 2 massive rocks (which in a way, they placed themselves between). Much of the player population liked sprint, just like much did not. They had to find a way to dial back the advanced movement systems implemented while also allowing some form of it to still exist. People are just going to need to accept that what infinite currently has is probably how it’s going to remain. Will they add settings and stuff for more customization of modes? I sure hope so, but expecting something massively different is just uinrealistic. I am actually shocked this thread is even still going.
> 2533274825830455;5508:
> It’s not that simple. When you said “You (general)” referring to opponents of sprint, you implicitly included me in that.
It is that simple, and no, I did not. “Implicitly” implies that I had you specifically in mind, when in fact I had no one specific in mind. For claiming that I’m putting words in mouths, you’re doing much the same with my intentions. Simply enough, that is how generalizations work. Regardless if the view is simplified or “corrupted” as you put it; though it is absolutely common in this thread alone to see the sentiment stated that Sprint doesn’t belong in Halo because it’s not built for it. How many times has it been said since I made that not-entirely-inaccurate generalization? When someone says “men are so rude” or “Americans are so dumb”, I don’t leap to and barge in claiming that they’re slandering me with their generalization. So why do you feel the need to act as though I called you out specifically with that statement?
If I wanted to address something that you specifically had said, or refute an argument you made, I would have quoted you.
> 2533274825830455;5515:
> If I recall correctly, one of the reasons behind the eventual demise of dual wielding was that it discouraged players from using grenades.
So far as I know, dual wielding was removed because Frank O’Connor didn’t like it. It was omitted from Halo Reach because it didn’t mesh well with the sandbox, according to Halopedia.
As well the various drawbacks were commonly known, even among developers. As you point out, dual wielding in Halo 3 reduced the damage of weapons. It removed the ability to melee and throw grenades, and doing so would disengage dual wielding. It doubled reload times. And for weapons like the SMG and Plasma Rifle, it decreased accuracy. In regards to dual wield as a mechanic experiment, the disadvantages far outweighed the advantages. In my opinion and experience, not so with Sprint.
> 2533274815533909;5509:
> But if you want another one on coliseum, there going from bridge to top mid you have to sprint jump clamber.
Nope, just managed it with a jump-clamber.
> E2 is Engine 2.
Engine Platform (off Engine Two) to Tower Two requires nothing more than a jump-clamber.
> And you absolutely can go from the top of arch to rockets in coliseum.
With a Sprint-Thruster-Clamber “Trick Jump”. Contradicting what you insinuated earlier that it’s attainable through Sprint alone. Which, as mentioned earlier, is not common “routine” gameplay, and is akin to the various Super Jumps in Halo 2. So, still, Sprint is not necessary for map traversal, but remains a useful tool to be skillfully implemented and allow for a quicker traversal of the Trick Jump shortcuts, as are Banshees and Super Jumps.
And, just so we’re clear, that you’re putting forward Trick Jumps that require Thrusters and Clambering does mean you’re talking about Advanced Movement, and not just Sprint.
> Yes I would agree that Skyrim is not a first-person shooter, It’s a FP RPG.
And yet it has many of the exact same mechanics as an FPS, when you get down to it. Movement mechanics on the physical level are the same, and you even shoot various ranged weapons and attacks. It’s splitting hairs that it’s a Staff of Fireball and not a SPNKr Rocket Launcher; it has the same function and combat application.
But now, if you wouldn’t compare Skyrim to Halo because of an arbitrary line of game style, why would you think that comparing Halo to games that have significantly different playstyles makes for a good argument?
> So you’re implying that games that don’t use the sprint animation won’t do as well as they will be considered “old” feeling
No. I’ve implied no such thing, and I try not to “imply”. I have stated my observation based opinion that Sprint has become a standard and expected core movement mechanic in modern gaming across many game genres. That there are four outliers does not significantly alter this observation.
> I feel your dual wielding example is a poor one as dual wielding does not affect something major like map design as sprint does.
Thus far you haven’t really shown how Sprint has majorly affected map design. The examples you’ve given are all Trick Jumps, and most are possible without Sprint. So, on both hands, we have mechanics that introduce alternative playstyles for players to utilize, one for movement and the other for combat approach. And, just as with everything in the Halo sandbox, there are drawbacks. That’s balance.
And what’s truly funny to me about the countlessly stated complaint that you can’t sprint and fire, is that when you pull the trigger you begin firing, and you stop sprinting while still moving forward. The process is instantaneous, and there truly is no functional problem. Sprint along, see an enemy, fire. No, despite what is stated (hold on to your torches, this is an opinionated assumption) I think it simply boils down to not liking what new, wishing to retain the “Classic”, and trying to come up with a solid, functional reason as to why it’s “bad”.
> 2533274795123910;5510:
> I have a memory of you saying Halo gameplay has changed.
It has, and it has remained Halo. A game who’s ideology is a diverse sandbox where every player is a “Hyper Lethal Vector” able to utilize the sandbox to achieve victory. “Two men enter, the better man leaves, the lesser man is respawning. And that’s Halo.” ~Luke Smith
In terms of the FPS games, Halo is not a rapid-pace slaughter fest designed to make the player feel like a demon-slaying God on the battlefield. Halo is not a class-based MOBA with a cast of varied and diverse characters. It is not a cover-based grit-and-gore shooter. So using those games and their niche of success to try and argue how Halo has failed and can succeed again (already a tenuous argument) is a flawed comparison. It is judging NASCAR by the standards of the NFL.
> You came back into this thread, and the focus you took was sprint.
Yes, I came back. Are you pleased now? Do you need to mention it another time in another post, or are you settled now that I’ve acknowledged my sojourn? The fact remains that Advanced Movement as a whole has been brought up many times in the near 300 pages of this thread. Even recently. I am completely unconcerned with what arguments I put forward months ago - though my view has not changed - and it does not set a limit for what arguments I can and will bring forward now. Or so long as I remain in this… discussion.
> Yes, minesweeper would indeed be a far better game with an undo button. You mess up, you mess up.
An all too common flaw, it seems, is thinking that discussion of this mechanic is isolated to Multiplayer alone. Mistakes are costly in matchmaking, but it’s a poor game (and thus, will lose popularity) to punish a player so much so that they have no alternative in other gamemodes. And if Multiplayer is the only thing you care for, and the only area you’d wish to see “balanced” better, then it’s been argued how Sprint doesn’t really affect the layout and overall flow of various maps. You can really play without it, if such is your preference.
> So, what you get out of sprint at this point is: The emotion of speed and urgency. That’s basically it.
No, and it’s ridiculous that you’re simplifying it so drastically.
> Here we are, with that justification for its inclusion.
> It’s “needed” for tedious parts of the game.
> It’s “needed” to shave of seconds.
> It’s “needed” to convey some emotions.
> It’s “needed” to bandaid earlier game specific issues.
No, here we are with justifications for the desire to be able to use Sprint. I even stated that it’s a matter of preference and perspective. I want it to trim tedious sections. Those areas of past games where I think ”boy, this’d be useful” do not require Sprint in the same way areas of the game don’t require a bubbleshield.
> Interesting thought though, because it’s been a “core functions” for 10 years, and longer with Infinite, that’d it’d be safe from removal, when the gameplay undoubtedly change at some point again, depending on what kind of gameplay the developers are aiming for.
Frankly, I doubt it. Games adopted dual analog control in 2001, popularized with Halo: CE, and even in VR games the layout is the same to where movement is on the left by default. That became a core standard and has remained, as I am certain that sprint will be for a majority of FPS and other games.
> 2533274797849057;5512:
> Even a half second delay, in a game where you can be potentially killed in less than a second, is quite significant, and will inevitably play an effect on the overall combat puzzle. Particularly when talking about an ever-present mechanic that is so frequently used.
As mentioned above to Dead End, it is literally an instantaneous shift from sprinting to firing when the trigger is pulled. No different whatsoever than if you were not sprinting and came upon an enemy.
> 2533274836395701;5518:
> The reply was provided due to your claim that sprint is mandatory in a modern shooter.
I said it is, in general, expected and standard. Not mandatory.
> when modern examples appear you then pivot to advanced movement
No, the argument against the Big Four modern examples of Star Studded Sprintless Successes is and has been that their gameplay ideology is completely different to Halo. For as much as you all gaslight me for “putting words in your mouths”, several sure put words in my mouth.
Advanced Movement is brought up because it has been used as an argument to how the flow of maps has been “broken” because of them. I very specifically remember going around in regards to the map Truth, and how some areas are supposedly only reachable with the aid of Spartan Abilities. Even Dead End can’t help but bring in Thrusters and clambering with his examples of various Trick Jumps.
> you could most likely categorize most of 343s negative gameplay changes into 3 categories.
> - Forcing the player to choose between movement or combat (combat in this sense being any non-movement action - shooting, reloading, throwing, punching) where it didn’t exist prior to Reach.
[/quote]
Well, here we go with the comparison to old games. Irrelevant, as I’ve pointed out the choice between movement and combat is as instantaneous as your reflexes and pulling the trigger. That stops you sprinting, while still moving forward provided you don’t panic and let off the left analog, and you immediately open fire with whatever rate-of-fire your weapon has. There is no “forced choice” that is not immediately rectifiable. Similar to dual wielding and melee, and better than dual wielding and throwing grenades.
>
>
>
> > 3. Introduction of a lot of randomness (more of the issue with H4, loadouts and ordnance etc)
>
> Yes, I skipped #2. There was very little “randomness” in the loadouts of Halo 4, as they were all restricted to a specific set of loadout weapons. It’s not like it was a game of Fiesta. And the various tactical packages and support upgrades (if that’s what you mean by ordinance) didn’t offer any enormous advantage to players. Neither did armor ability loadouts, as every single set had drawbacks and shortcomings.
>
>
>
> > So why are your comparisons to other games, and why Halo needs a sprint mechanic relevant?
>
> I don’t compare Halo to other games to support my opinion that Sprint belongs in Halo.
>
>
>
> > The sprinting player has all the power, if they want to escape would they cancel? no. Where does it leave the player shooting? Once line of sight is broken they either run to see again or disengage. Even during advantage with the shooter being full shields and the other player being weak, in many / most cases once the sprinter gets away it is now the shooter in the weak position. If they chase they can get collapsed on, if they don’t they lose out and possibly jumped from being distracted with a kill they can’t get. The mechanic punishes aggression, pressure and control, the staple of why Halo plays like Halo and not a stop’n’pop game.
>
> You’re forgetting teamwork. I know that’s often on the sidelines, and today’s population tends to be more selfish in their scramble for Top Score and all the glory. But teamwork has always been a huge part of Halo’s multiplayer. It’s why you’re in a Four Spartan fireteam.
>
> Shields don’t recharge while you’re sprinting. So assuming that your target is at half-shields and for some reason decides to turn and flee, they’re already at a disadvantage. And while you’re peppering them with chasing fire, it would be best if you coordinated a squadmate to cut them off, and take advantage of their significantly weakened and off-balance position. Or is map control also forgotten in your scenario? A scenario which is also pretty much isolated to standard Slayer. Move that to SWAT, and you’ve got an entirely different situation.
>
>
>
> > If Halo was permanently in sprint speed with the ability to shoot i’m sure there would be criticism, i wouldn’t be overly joyed with it, but it would be a far better solution than sprint in Halo.
>
> No, it really wouldn’t, because that’s not Halo’s gameplay ideology. And, to point, the whole idea of Sprint as a tactical tool is not to be going as fast as possible all the time.
TheKiltdHeathen
> And yet it has many of the exact same mechanics as an FPS.
Out of the three main combat styles in Skyrim, one of them involves shooting a bow, and if I’m being exceedingly generous we could also count casting spells as shooting, that means that a sizeable amount of the Skyrim player base who choose to make a melee build spent virtually no time during their playthrough doing any kind of shooting. A game that presents you with an option to completely ignore ranged combat as one of the main options is not an FPS.
> Movement mechanics on the physical level are the same
This seems to imply that there is some sort of standard for FPS games which there is not, different FPS games have presented players with an insane amount of different movement mechanics, and if you’re trying to compare Skyrim to Halo directly, then the comparison is different depending on which Halo game you’re looking at, and in no case is it the same.
> and you even shoot various ranged weapons and attacks. It’s splitting hairs that it’s a Staff of Fireball and not a SPNKr Rocket Launcher; it has the same function and combat application.
By this standard the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time must be a third Person Shooter because you get a slingshot and a bow that you shoot bats and other enemies with, and you can actually fire them in first person so maybe it is an FPS. Bottom line, it takes more than ranged combat for a game to be an FPS.
> I have stated my observation based opinion that Sprint has become a standard and expected core movement mechanic in modern gaming across many game genres. That there are four outliers does not significantly alter this observation.
There are far more than 4 outliers, the four presented merely represent some of the most recent and popular examples, and even if there were only four examples that still wouldn’t mean that sprint is a good mechanic to have as a standard inherently.
> Thus far you haven’t really shown how Sprint has majorly affected map design.
You may not have found his examples to be convincing, but others throughout this thread have done some very thorough work with map and speed measurements to show how maps have grown in size and how combat encounters are more rare in the newer Halo games.
> So, on both hands, we have mechanics that introduce alternative playstyles for players to utilize, one for movement and the other for combat approach. And, just as with everything in the Halo sandbox, there are drawbacks. That’s balance.
The big difference here between dual wield and sprint is that dual wield was both optional and never really that powerful, meaning that no player was ever at any disadvantage for not using it outside of very specific situations, sprint on the other hand is mandatory for optimal play, not just for making trick jumps, but for keeping pace with the game itself. There is no alternative “just don’t sprint playstyle” its a total non-solution in a game with sprint as a core mechanic.
> And what’s truly funny to me about the countlessly stated complaint that you can’t sprint and fire, is that when you pull the trigger you begin firing, and you stop sprinting while still moving forward. The process is instantaneous, and there truly is no functional problem. Sprint along, see an enemy, fire.
Even if sprint instantly ended upon pulling the trigger, it would still put you at a disadvantage because as you mentioned you would still be moving forward, which means that you wouldn’t be able to respond right away unless an enemy is directly in front of you. In all other cases, you’ll have to stop sprinting, and then aim at your enemy before you can return fire. With the old system, where you were always moving at full speed without an animation that forced you to look forward, you could prepare to fire early by looking in the most likely spots for enemies to emerge from, and you had better situational awareness in general because of your ability to always be looking around instead of having to look forward. This also meant that you could make all jumps whilst looking in other directions rather than having to turn towards the jump.
So to sum it up, as you’re “sprinting along,” you’re less likely to see the enemy (and other things) in the first place, and even when you do you’ll often have to turn towards them to fire instead of being able to pre aim.
> I think it simply boils down to not liking what new, wishing to retain the “Classic”, and trying to come up with a solid, functional reason as to why it’s “bad”.
Each game in the original trilogy plays differently from the other two, this is because Halo 2 and 3 both introduced plenty of their own new ideas and mechanics that changed the game, and yet despite introducing many new things Halo 2 and 3 were both insanely popular and maintained their populations for years, unlike Halo 4 and 5 which preformed much worse in terms of sales and abysmally in terms of player retention.
> 2533274804813082;5532:
> It is that simple, and no, I did not. “Implicitly” implies that I had you specifically in mind, when in fact I had no one specific in mind. For claiming that I’m putting words in mouths, you’re doing much the same with my intentions.
No, it doesn’t have to involve a specific intention, just a clear logical connection by logical implication, hence “implicit”. I’m sure you didn’t intend to target me specifically. I’m not blaming you for doing so, and I’m not upset with your comment because I believe you hold some grudge against me (I don’t, and I hope you don’t).
> 2533274804813082;5532:
> So why do you feel the need to act as though I called you out specifically with that statement?
I don’t. I’m just concerned because you’re painting a bad, possibly straw man, argument as the argument against sprint. This is a common thing people do in debates when their intention isn’t to understand the topic at hand, but to convince themselves (and possibly others) that their opponents have no legitimate concerns. I hope you can understand why presenting the anti-sprint crowd in this way concerns me.
To be clear, by “intention” I don’t mean you consciously thought “today I’m going to make anti-sprinters look worse than they are”. We’re all in the same boat with brains that try to rationalize our own views as right and conflicting views as wrong. It’s all too easy to take the worst, possibly made up, argument against your position you can think of and try to refute that. None of us is immune to this. It’s helpful to remind yourself of this, and also to decide what you’re here for.
> 2533274840624875;5529:
> > 2533274801176260;5523:
> > > 2533274824125565;5519:
> > > Also: What is the likelihood that 343 even cares/acknowledges this thread exists?
> >
> > Nil.
> > Just like they didn’t care/acknowledge the sprint discussion in the previous 10+ years.
> > At least not enough to actually do something about it.
> > Afair they mentioned sprint being controversial in one of their H5G development videos (which were ironically titled “the sprint”, just to add insult to injury) but never said anything about actually addressing the community’s issues with it.
> > So yeah, their stance on this issue is and always has been: “We know, but we don’t care.”
>
> ah yes, lets all jump on the "we dont care stance. Everything is considered in development. Sprint has been in halo for the majority of its life. You can not like it, but removing doesn’t fulfill a purpose outside of making older fans happy when it comes to their view on gameplay flow (I share a lot of these views by the way). Concessions need to be made, and they have done so in a variety of ways (art, removal of abilities, adjustment of equipment etc). Lets not assume everything is about them not caring cause what you want isnt the route they are going
This isn’t even about “removing” sprint. If you noticed my exact wording, I said they didn’t “address” the issues, as in, there was never even an official response to the criticism in an online article or anything, much less a change to the mechanics in order to fix them. The best we got is that one talk at the GDC where one developer said “sprint didn’t help with the escapability problem either, but it’s a staple of modern games”, and that one wasn’t even directed at the community. At least from that statement we can infer that they know about some of sprint’s issues, but don’t consider them to be as big of a problem as to go against mainstream expectations of how FPS movement should work.
Or, in other words: “We know, but we don’t care.”
Sprint is cool man
> 2535441307847473;5535:
> A game that presents you with an option to completely ignore ranged combat as one of the main options is not an FPS.
Oof, guess Halo’s not an FPS then. Because in every single Halo I can completely ignore ranged combat and run through the maps with nothing but melee. Hell, Halo 2 onward even gives us a melee weapon to use. Halo Reach onward devoted a neat little animation for it.
> This seems to imply that there is some sort of standard for FPS games which there is not,
Only there is. By standard default* for modern console FPS games, movement and strafe is on the left analog stick, aiming and turning on the right analog stick. Firing your weapon is on the right trigger, crouch (and prone) is B, jumping is A, action and reload is X. Increasingly, aiming is achieved by pulling the left trigger, be it scoped or ADS. Melee has migrated to clicking down on the right stick, and sprint by clicking down on the left stick.
*By “standard default” a majority of games is meant. Four examples of outliers does not negate or disprove a common standard.
> if you’re trying to compare Skyrim to Halo directly, then the comparison is different depending on which Halo game you’re looking at, and in no case is it the same.
I’m not comparing Halo to Skyrim, and had made that clear by stating that it’s foolish to compare games that differ in such fashions just because of shared mechanics. Skyrim is considered an FPS RPG; that you have a “melee class” doesn’t change this. Yet comparing Skyrim to Halo is just as foolish as comparing Halo to another FPS game like Call of Duty or DOOM, as the playstyles and ideologies of the games are completely different.
And no, it doesn’t take more than ranged combat to make an FPS. By definition: “First-person shooter (FPS) is a video game genre centered on gun and other weapon-based combat in a first-person perspective” That can include swords, spells, knives, hammers, Mantis Blades and even unarmed combat.
> There are far more than 4 outliers,
Then name some. Do keep in mind were talking about modern gaming. And, preemptively, CS:GO is well over a decade old; it’s not an example of modern gaming, regardless of enduring popularity with a demographic.
What makes for a “good” standard mechanic is largely up to opinion, though I’m curious as to just why you think it’s not a good thing to have. In general, not even for Halo alone.
> You may not have found his examples to be convincing
I thought I had made that pretty clear. They weren’t only not convincing, they were false and misleading. Many of the given examples can be done without Sprint, and one was a Trick Jumps that required more than Sprint. It has not impacted map layout so much so that Sprinting is required to traverse the map, and this is even true in maps that have grown compared to their predecessors, like Truth.
> The big difference here between dual wield and sprint is that dual wield was both optional and never really that powerful
Sprint is optional. And the second is flatly wrong. A player dual wielding Needlers or Plasma Rifles was at a significant advantage. Or, worse still, Plasma Rifle/SMG, Plasma Pistol/Magnum, and other combinations that quickly shredded shields and allowed for quicker kills without swapping weapons.
And while you may feel the need to Sprint to “keep up” (you don’t, I’ve encountered just as many campers and the like in Halo 5 as I did in Halo 2), the point is that had your side wanted a game type that did not include Sprint - similar to how there were gametypes removing Armor Abilities and Assassinations - it could have been done. Theoretically still can. The issue there being that several hold the viewpoint against being “segregated”, and opt rather to remove what they don’t like across the board rather than compromise.
> Even if sprint instantly ended upon pulling the trigger,
Not if, it does. Go on and try it. If you’re at a disadvantage from that, then you’re always at a disadvantage while moving and you might as well camp.
You also break from Sprint at the same instantaneous rate when you strafe or turn too drastically. So in no situation is it like you have to stop for a full second before you can resume BMS. And realistically, if you’re entering an area that you expect enemies you’re going to be sweeping the room, not sprinting in like Leeroy Jenkins. Again, Sprint is not about going fast all the time.
> …unlike Halo 4 and 5 which preformed much worse in terms of sales and abysmally in terms of player retention.
False. As has been gone over many times in the past, sales have only ever gone up. Comparisons have tried to frame it with Halo 3 sales up to current, which is a massively uneven timeframe comparison that skews the presented data with an obvious bias. “Player Retention” has also never been shown conclusively, and population numbers given are incomplete and fractional, mostly gotten from websites that only track their registered players, not the total population.
Sometimes I find myself confused with the strands of discussion that happen in this thread. I had to go and check how it is relevant whether or not Skyrim is an FPS. Given the original context in which TheKiltdHeathen brought it up, I don’t think it is relevant, and I think it’s distracting us from the more important question: how does one claim that “comparing Halo to other games that operate completely different is a poor argument” but then go on to state that “Sprint as a movement mechanic has become a standard across the FPS genre” in favor of Halo having sprint? There appears to be a very clear comparison to other games that operate completely differently here.
TheKiltdHeathen
> > 2535441307847473;5535:
> > A game that presents you with an option to completely ignore ranged combat as one of the main options is not an FPS.
>
> Oof, guess Halo’s not an FPS then. Because in every single Halo I can completely ignore ranged combat and run through the maps with nothing but melee. Hell, Halo 2 onward even gives us a melee weapon to use.
Running around the map and refusing to use your guns or grenades to melee people to death is neither a sound option, nor a fair comparison, its a complete meme strategy that requires you to actively ignore the gun that you’re holding which is almost always a more effective weapon. In Skyrim by contrast, melee is a combat style that is balanced to be of a similar power level to magic and marksmanship and it completely removes you’re ability to attack at range, in addition to being an effective option, it’s also far more fleshed out than melee in Halo is. The energy sword and gravity hammer are both power weapons that do not even appear on many maps and are only acquirable by 1 or maybe 2 people at a time. The only exception is Griffball which is a meme mode that has tons of other differences with the main game.
> > This seems to imply that there is some sort of standard for FPS games which there is not,
>
> Only there is. By standard default* for modern console FPS games, movement and strafe is on the left analog stick, aiming and turning on the right analog stick. Firing your weapon is on the right trigger, crouch (and prone) is B, jumping is A, action and reload is X. Increasingly, aiming is achieved by pulling the left trigger, be it scoped or ADS. Melee has migrated to clicking down on the right stick, and sprint by clicking down on the left stick.
>
> *By “standard default” a majority of games is meant. Four examples of outliers does not negate or disprove a common standard.
Why are we pivoting to consoles? Halo is on PC now and so are tons of other FPS games. I wasn’t even referring to buttons anyway, I was referring to movement mechanics themselves.
> > if you’re trying to compare Skyrim to Halo directly, then the comparison is different depending on which Halo game you’re looking at, and in no case is it the same.
>
> I’m not comparing Halo to Skyrim, and had made that clear by stating that it’s foolish to compare games that differ in such fashions just because of shared mechanics. Yet comparing Skyrim to Halo is just as foolish as comparing Halo to another FPS game like Call of Duty or DOOM, as the playstyles and ideologies of the games are completely different.
And yet as Tsassi has pointed out you want to have it both ways when it comes to comparisons, you avoid comparisons that make sprintless games look good whilst appealing to other modern FPS games that have sprint to emphasis the supposed importance of sprint as a standard modern mechanic despite them being very different from Halo.
> And no, it doesn’t take more than ranged combat to make an FPS. By definition: “First-person shooter (FPS) is a video game genre centered on gun and other weapon-based combat in a first-person perspective” That can include swords, spells, knives, hammers, Mantis Blades and even unarmed combat.
Alright, so from this ultra broad definition I guess Ocarina of Time is indeed an FPS because you can shoot the slingshot and bow in first person, the broadness of this definition is ridiculous, literally any game with combat which even briefly asks the player to use a ranged weapon is therefore an FPS. By this definition the term FPS isn’t even useful in any way and completely ignores the extreme importance of shooting in an FPS compared to other mechanics.
> Then name some. Do keep in mind were talking about modern gaming. And, preemptively, CS:GO is well over a decade old; it’s not an example of modern gaming, regardless of enduring popularity with a demographic.
CS:GO may not be a product of the modern gaming industry, but it is 100% a part of modern gaming because of its immense popularity and prominence, if publication date is really all that matters than Halo 5 isn’t really even modern anyway because its over 5 years old. How many titles would I even need to bring you for them to matter? I don’t think that the number of examples is truly relevant, it simply shows that sprint is included in many games, not that its needed. I have no interest in this appeal to novelty.
> It has not impacted map layout so much so that Sprinting is required to traverse the map, and this is even true in maps that have grown compared to their predecessors, like Truth.
Obviously you can walk around the map without sprint, but you’re putting yourself at a major disadvantage by not being able to keep up with your team, or escape a bad engagement quickly, or make it to weapon/vehicle spawns and objectives as fast as everybody else.
> Sprint is optional. And the second is flatly wrong. A player dual wielding Needlers or Plasma Rifles was at a significant advantage. Or, worse still, Plasma Rifle/SMG, Plasma Pistol/Magnum, and other combinations that quickly shredded shields and allowed for quicker kills without swapping weapons.
>
> And while you may feel the need to Sprint to “keep up” (you don’t, I’ve encountered just as many campers and the like in Halo 5 as I did in Halo 2),
Duel wielding did give players very good DPS and some good combos, but the drawbacks it came with meant that precision weapons and even the AR were almost always better options, which is to say nothing of power weapons.
Sprint is only optional if you like to be at a distinct disadvantage, the existence of campers is not a counterargument as they literally aren’t moving at all.
> the point is that had your side wanted a game type that did not include Sprint - similar to how there were gametypes removing Armor Abilities and Assassinations - it could have been done. Theoretically still can. The issue there being that several hold the viewpoint against being “segregated”, and opt rather to remove what they don’t like across the board rather than compromise.
The desire to remove sprint across the board is a product of the reality of map design, not personal animosity. You can’t design maps to function around both movement styles, and although I would be more than happy for there to be twice as many maps in the game to allow for two playlists with their own properly balanced maps to exist, I can’t see any game developer putting in that much work.
> > Even if sprint instantly ended upon pulling the trigger,
>
> Not if, it does.
The reason I said if is because it can and does in some games, assuming that 343 will not screw that up is somewhat optimistic in my opinion.
> You also break from Sprint at the same instantaneous rate when you strafe or turn too drastically. So in no situation is it like you have to stop for a full second before you can resume BMS. And realistically, if you’re entering an area that you expect enemies you’re going to be sweeping the room, not sprinting in like Leeroy Jenkins. Again, Sprint is not about going fast all the time.
You may not have to stop to look around but you do have to slow down which is still bad, and as for sweeping, you may still be attacked from a room/area that you think is safe so being able to look around even in a supposedly safe situation is beneficial, and there still exists the directional jump problem. I agree that sprint is not about going fast all the time, and that’s the point, in the older games you could always keep moving fast instead of slowing down to do basic things like looking. 1/2