The return of classic movement mechanics?

> 2535418045865871;5501:
> Judging from the trailer the base movement speed is pretty fast and sprinting is a minor boost in speed, which looks nice and seems like the most appropriate way of doing it to me. Sliding looks good in the demo too, looks like you can fire immediately out of sprint and slide so there’s no actual downtime in gameplay whilst also giving enhanced movement. Thrusters and spartan charge do not look like they are returning which is great in my opinion as enhanced movement is one thing but spamming abilities and flying around the map in the middle of gunfights is another. Looks like the essence of classic movement with a little enhanced movement sprinkled on top. Also looks like clamber is coming back which is good as that makes jumping ledges a little easier and forgiving and crouch jumping is still an option. I think this will be the best iteration of Halo movement to date as it has all the best parts of modern upgrades whilst maintaining the feeling of Halo.

If sprinting only provides a minor increase in speed, what’s the point of including it at all? 343 isn’t gonna make anyone happy by trying to play ‘both sides’ here. Either it’s in, or it isnt. Nerfing the sprint is going to make mobility fans upset because it’s weak and they don’t feel like juiced super soldiers, and classic fans aren’t happy because sprint still is going to introduce the myriad of problems to the sandbox and maps that have been covered extensively in this thread

Let this topic never die.

> 2533274923428997;5502:
> > 2535418045865871;5501:
> > Judging from the trailer the base movement speed is pretty fast and sprinting is a minor boost in speed, which looks nice and seems like the most appropriate way of doing it to me. Sliding looks good in the demo too, looks like you can fire immediately out of sprint and slide so there’s no actual downtime in gameplay whilst also giving enhanced movement. Thrusters and spartan charge do not look like they are returning which is great in my opinion as enhanced movement is one thing but spamming abilities and flying around the map in the middle of gunfights is another. Looks like the essence of classic movement with a little enhanced movement sprinkled on top. Also looks like clamber is coming back which is good as that makes jumping ledges a little easier and forgiving and crouch jumping is still an option. I think this will be the best iteration of Halo movement to date as it has all the best parts of modern upgrades whilst maintaining the feeling of Halo.
>
> If sprinting only provides a minor increase in speed, what’s the point of including it at all? 343 isn’t gonna make anyone happy by trying to play ‘both sides’ here. Either it’s in, or it isnt. Nerfing the sprint is going to make mobility fans upset because it’s weak and they don’t feel like juiced super soldiers, and classic fans aren’t happy because sprint still is going to introduce the myriad of problems to the sandbox and maps that have been covered extensively in this thread

Was there enough in the demo to determine the top speed? It may just take a bit to wind up.

And some have proposed sprinting as a mechanism to initiate other movement options. Once you are sprinting you can then do a longer jump… or move into a slide.

Mobility fans aren’t just about the top speed. It’s about movement options.

> 2585548714655118;5504:
> > 2533274923428997;5502:
> > > 2535418045865871;5501:
> > > Judging from the trailer the base movement speed is pretty fast and sprinting is a minor boost in speed, which looks nice and seems like the most appropriate way of doing it to me. Sliding looks good in the demo too, looks like you can fire immediately out of sprint and slide so there’s no actual downtime in gameplay whilst also giving enhanced movement. Thrusters and spartan charge do not look like they are returning which is great in my opinion as enhanced movement is one thing but spamming abilities and flying around the map in the middle of gunfights is another. Looks like the essence of classic movement with a little enhanced movement sprinkled on top. Also looks like clamber is coming back which is good as that makes jumping ledges a little easier and forgiving and crouch jumping is still an option. I think this will be the best iteration of Halo movement to date as it has all the best parts of modern upgrades whilst maintaining the feeling of Halo.
> >
> > If sprinting only provides a minor increase in speed, what’s the point of including it at all? 343 isn’t gonna make anyone happy by trying to play ‘both sides’ here. Either it’s in, or it isnt. Nerfing the sprint is going to make mobility fans upset because it’s weak and they don’t feel like juiced super soldiers, and classic fans aren’t happy because sprint still is going to introduce the myriad of problems to the sandbox and maps that have been covered extensively in this thread
>
> Was there enough in the demo to determine the top speed? It may just take a bit to wind up.
>
> And some have proposed sprinting as a mechanism to initiate other movement options. Once you are sprinting you can then do a longer jump… or move into a slide.
>
> Mobility fans aren’t just about the top speed. It’s about movement options.

Unless it takes awhile to get to maximum speed, we’ve seen the top sprint speed in H:I at the beginning when the player sprints to the warthog.

My point still stands though. Nerf mobility and mobility fans aren’t pleased, include the mobility stuff and classic fans aren’t happy either

> 2533274833081329;5495:
> It’s not “X game did well because of not having sprint”, it’s “X game did well while not having sprint.”

That is a very thin distinction, especially when the crux of the argument is that Advanced Movement “ruined” Halo. Sprint tends to be the focal point, yet you also see quite a bit of mention for Spartan Abilities. To focus on one mechanic that another game omits (but not really; simply an appearance of omission due to class-based gameplay or the lack of a triggering mechanism) is the makings of a flawed argument.


> 2533274825830455;5497:
> I (me specifically) say that sprint doesn’t belong in Halo because because it is at best an uninteresting mechanic (and at worst detrimental), and it harms the interplay of movement and combat which I consider foundational to Halo.

Which really makes it an opinion, doesn’t it? Opinions are pointless to debate, difficult to quantify, and unsubstantial as evidence of any purported decline in the franchise; which while you, specifically, may never have said such a thing or voiced such an opinion it has been said, and is a claim that by rights should be supported by evidence.

> If you’re not addressing my concerns, please don’t draw me into the argument with faulty generalizations. Better not make generalizations unless you can be sure those generalizations are sound.

I didn’t draw you in, tsassi, you came in of your own accord. That you, tsassi, specifically as an individual haven’t made any of the above generalizations is completely and totally irrelevant. It is a common complaint brought against the use of Sprint in Halo that I’m sure if I cared enough I could find multiple utilizations in all 275 prior pages of this thread. If you don’t wish to be drawn into an argument that I make, then just pass by if it holds no relevance to you. But I will certainly continue to comment on a common theme that I’ve observed, brought forward as a generalized yet civilly stated critique.


> 2533274795123910;5499:
> Because?

Plainly because those games aren’t Halo. They have distinctly different themes, playstyles, and combat ideologies. Were the argument about Halo becoming something else, they would be apt. But that’s not the argument, so how DOOM or Overwatch does things is largely irrelevant.

> You think it’s a double-standard to dislike sprint in Halo, and use Doom as an example of a succesful sprint-less game?

I think it’s a double standard to vie for a return to “Classic Movement”, criticize and shun “Advanced Movement” in Halo, and then use games that have Advanced Movement out the gills as a comparison to how a game can “succeed” without a single mechanic of said Advanced Movement. You’re free, of course, to like and dislike whatever you want, but that doesn’t justify comparing a Doritos Locos taco to a three-layer nacho supreme just because one doesn’t have Cool Ranch tortilla.

> you ditched sprint, and moved to complete advanced movement.

While it’s been a while, I do remember clambering, thrusters, and the various Spartan Abilities also being argued against in this thread. The inclusion of Advanced Movement in total is not a new angle, it’s one you’ve simply bypassed to focus on Sprint.

> I’d gladly use OG Doom’s “sprint” in Halo, as it was back then.

So you’d be in favor of pressing a button to move faster than BMS? A worse mechanic, actually, as you had to hold down the SHIFT key to do so, rather than have it toggle.

> Any mission which is “long and tedious” are subject to two, or three different, aspects.
> 1: Conveying an emotion;

And if this is the case then one of the arguments against Sprint (that it only makes players “feel” like they’re going faster) utilizes the exact same function. Conveying an emotion and sense of urgency and rapid movement, both intrinsic to a Spartan experience.

> 2: Over committing to the design;

A design error that is mitigated by the inclusion of a circumstantial and brief Sprint mechanic, to be utilized in such instances while retaining a more consistent BMS in better structured or close-quarters areas. Which would be a problem if the BMS was increased to, say, 125%.

> 3: Player skill, or decisions;

And others don’t. Perhaps the player’s vehicle was destroyed. Either way, having a baseline ability to briefly increase movement allows for such circumstantial situations to not be as tedious, which can at worst-case completely spoil the feel and flow of a game. It’s all fun until you have to trudge 500 meters to the next objective with absolutely no vehicle made available to you.

> But when you sit down and think about it, is it missed because it has a big enough impact?

Yes.

> Halo does not require sprint, it doesn’t need it.

Halo doesn’t require a lot of things that it has; this isn’t an argument. Halo didn’t need a grapplehook, but there it is. It didn’t need bubble shields, gravity lifts, or Sentinel turrets, but there they were in Halo 3. Saying what Halo requires or needs adds just one more unnecessary layer to what is increasingly becoming an argument centered on Opinions.

If you want to hold to the hope that in some future game Sprint will be removed then you do you. But with a majority of Halo games having Sprint, and with it being a constant core function since 2010, I’d say chances of that are slim.

(1/2)

> 2533274815533909;5500:
> Jumping from Red bridge to Blue bridge on coliseum

Going from bridge to bridge is too far even with sprint. Did you mean blue yard to red yard? A short cut, and also possible without sprinting; I managed it with a simple jog and jump. Didn’t even clamber.

> jumping from e2 to Tower 2 in the rig

I haven’t a clue what you mean by “E2”, but the second level of Tower Two is able to be reached without sprint, and even without clamber. Not only have I play tested these just now to see what you’re on about, this one in particular I utilize all the time.

> jumping from top mid to arch to rockets in coliseum…

Top Mid to… the arch above either bridge? If that’s what you meant, it’s possible without sprinting. From that arch to rockets is also too far, even with sprint.

You’re not providing examples of where Sprinting is necessary for these maps, only a function of tactics. Which more speaks in favor of applications of Sprint. And, again, if Sprint is necessary to reach a “Trick Area” or path, then it is akin to super-jump location on Halo 2 maps, or the areas of Headlong only reachable by Banshee, or getting on top of the rock spire in Blood Gulch via Banshee.

Every map in Halo 5 can be played without using Sprint, in the same way that Headlong and Blood Gulch can be played without Banshees. Which isn’t to say that either are useless or shouldn’t be included, as they offer just one more experience to the sandbox.

> When was I comparing anything? I was merely stating that the maps and Halo 5 are designed around using the sprint animation.

Aside from when you brought up DOOM/Eternal, Overwatch and Valorant? Oh, no, no that was it. Also it’s more than an animation. It factually ads two to three mph to your speed.

> We’re not talking about advanced movement. last time I checked this thread it was about the sprint animation not advanced movement.

You might not be; I am. Also this thread was about a return to “Classic Movement”. Which involves Advanced Movement, and AM has cropped up quite frequently throughout. But again, comparing Halo to other games that operate completely different is a poor argument. That they’re FPS games is completely irrelevant; Skyrim is an FPS game, and I’m fairly certain you’d agree that Skyrim and Halo are nothing the same. Not to mention if we are to bring out every single FPS game on the modern market - comparable in the same timeframe to Halo 5 - the number of FPS games that utilize Sprint will far outweigh four that do not.

> You implied that newer games all use the sprint animation and ones that don’t are “old”

No, I’ve stated that Sprint as a movement mechanic has become a standard across the FPS genre, and even many Third Person Games. I’ve stated that Halo has progressed to keep up with a growing and fast-paced experience, and in my opinion wishing for bygone “Classic” days is a wasted endeavor. But nowhere have I said anything so ridiculous that the omission of a movement mechanic makes a game “old”. Time makes a game old, and even old games like Fable (2004) benefited from sprint.

> If you weren’t aware, it’s the sprint ANIMATION that people have an issue with. As it does not allow you to move and shoot at the same time.

Y’know, I’ve seen the inability to move and shoot more than I have the animation be an issue. But go ahead and tack on one more issue that boils down to opinion. And yes, Sprint removes your ability to move and shoot. Just like dual wielding removed your ability to use grenades. Yet both literally take less than a second to cancel or revert. The “problems” presented by Sprint as a mechanic are minimal at most, and opinion-based at least.

(2/2)

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> Which really makes it an opinion, doesn’t it? Opinions are pointless to debate, difficult to quantify, and unsubstantial as evidence of any purported decline in the franchise; which while you, specifically, may never have said such a thing or voiced such an opinion it has been said, and is a claim that by rights should be supported by evidence.

Well, of course, if you don’t believe gameplay mechanics should have some meaningful depth, or that the interplay of movement and combat is an important part of Halo, that’s fine. I’m not trying to convince you to dislike sprint, just trying to explain my views so that they don’t get misrepresented.

I wasn’t aware that you wanted to discuss the reasons behind the decline of Halo’s popularity.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> I didn’t draw you in, tsassi, you came in of your own accord. That you, tsassi, specifically as an individual haven’t made any of the above generalizations is completely and totally irrelevant. It is a common complaint brought against the use of Sprint in Halo that I’m sure if I cared enough I could find multiple utilizations in all 275 prior pages of this thread. If you don’t wish to be drawn into an argument that I make, then just pass by if it holds no relevance to you. But I will certainly continue to comment on a common theme that I’ve observed, brought forward as a generalized yet civilly stated critique.

It’s not that simple. When you said “You (general)” referring to opponents of sprint, you implicitly included me in that. It wouldn’t have been so bad if you hadn’t put words into our collective mouths. What was I supposed to do? Let you portray me by association as someone who can’t make a coherent argument? See, it is relevant to me if you say something that makes me look bad, even just by association.

Focusing on the least convincing arguments from individuals having some position, and presenting those arguments as the main defense of that position is a way of poisoning the well, because it makes it look like everybody sharing that position has no better arguments to offer. There are better ways of addressing common arguments than telling someone “You (general) say [something]” and proceeding to present a corrupted interpretation of a common argument.

You know, the reason you should quote arguments explicitly instead of paraphrasing versions of them from your head is that direct quotation minimizes the chances of misrepresentation. I didn’t go into detail about the argument you attributed to opponents of sprint, but I’m fairly sure that almost no one believes that “Sprint doesn’t belong in Halo […] because the maps aren’t built for Sprint”. Maybe you can find somebody who chose their words poorly using that exact phrasing, but I doubt you would find someone to explicitly agree with you on the exact implication “maps not build for sprint → sprint doesn’t belong in Halo”.

> 2533274804813082;5507:
> > 2533274815533909;5500:
> >
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>
> > We’re not talking about advanced movement. last time I checked this thread it was about the sprint animation not advanced movement.
>
> You might not be; I am. Also this thread was about a return to “Classic Movement”. Which involves Advanced Movement, and AM has cropped up quite frequently throughout. But again, comparing Halo to other games that operate completely different is a poor argument. That they’re FPS games is completely irrelevant; Skyrim is an FPS game, and I’m fairly certain you’d agree that Skyrim and Halo are nothing the same. Not to mention if we are to bring out every single FPS game on the modern market - comparable in the same timeframe to Halo 5 - the number of FPS games that utilize Sprint will far outweigh four that do not.
>
>
>
>
> > You implied that newer games all use the sprint animation and ones that don’t are “old”
>
> No, I’ve stated that Sprint as a movement mechanic has become a standard across the FPS genre, and even many Third Person Games. I’ve stated that Halo has progressed to keep up with a growing and fast-paced experience, and in my opinion wishing for bygone “Classic” days is a wasted endeavor. But nowhere have I said anything so ridiculous that the omission of a movement mechanic makes a game “old”. Time makes a game old, and even old games like Fable (2004) benefited from sprint.
>
>
>
>
> > If you weren’t aware, it’s the sprint ANIMATION that people have an issue with. As it does not allow you to move and shoot at the same time.
>
> Y’know, I’ve seen the inability to move and shoot more than I have the animation be an issue. But go ahead and tack on one more issue that boils down to opinion. And yes, Sprint removes your ability to move and shoot. Just like dual wielding removed your ability to use grenades. Yet both literally take less than a second to cancel or revert. The “problems” presented by Sprint as a mechanic are minimal at most, and opinion-based at least.
>
> (2/2)

I was actually thinking of flag root for the first example, So ignore that, that’s my bad. But if you want another one on coliseum, there going from bridge to top mid you have to sprint jump clamber. E2 is Engine 2. And you absolutely can go from the top of arch to rockets in coliseum. Start watching from 2:40 https://youtu.be/aZheji8KtPM he shows how to do that.

So can you play every map in Halo 5 and not sprint? Sure you TECHNICALLY can, I’ll give you that… but you won’t be able to utilize shortcuts in maps which massively increases your chances to win. Using shortcuts in maps is vital to success. Again if you don’t think so watch pro games or you don’t play at a decent level of competition. As I stated, if you don’t use sprint, the odds of you winning a match are extremely, extremely low in Halo 5. So low in fact that I will argue there’s no point of you even playing. So using the sprint mechanic is absolutely essential in gameplay to win. To think otherwise in a game that has been designed around sprint is kind of ridiculous don’t you think.

Well, you might be talking about advanced movement but I’m not. I am talking 100% purely about the sprint animation mechanic. Advanced movement is another whole topic in my opinion. If you wish to discuss advanced movement as a whole I’ll gladly do that in another thread but I’m sticking to just talking about the sprint mechanic here. Yes I would agree that Skyrim is not a first-person shooter, It’s a FP RPG. Just as old dungeon crawler games are in the FP or If you want a new example Operencia: The Stolen Sun. So no, I wouldn’t compare Skyrim to Halo as they are completely different types of games. Whereas the four games I mentioned are in the FPS category. Different types of first-person shooters (arena based, loadout based, etc) but nonetheless they are all FPS that don’t have a sprint animation and have done extremely well.

So you’re implying that games that don’t use the sprint animation won’t do as well as they will be considered “old” feeling… And I just gave you four examples of newer games that have done extremely well that have a no sprint animation. Do a lot of games utilize a sprint animation? Sure they do, I agree…but that doesn’t make it necessary for a game to succeed, far from it. So in my opinion, It doesn’t matter if a game uses a sprint animation or not. As long as the game is fun it can and will sell, case in point, the four games I mentioned. So in your opinion you think it’s a waste of time for people to hope halo goes back in that style but a lot of people don’t agree with you, and why do you care if these people want that?? Doesn’t affect you, the world or anything else in anyway… Anyways, Halo could easy go back to that style and do extremely well. There’s no reason to say that it can’t. I also wouldn’t be so sure that Halo will never go back to that style. Never is a long time… If Halo Infinite for example doesn’t do great, Then it’s very possible that they may consider going back to that style just as they changed Halo from going loadout style in Halo 4 back to not having loadouts at all and Halo 5.

I feel your dual wielding example is a poor one as dual wielding does not affect something major like map design as sprint does. Even if the problems with the sprint animation are as minimal as you say, which I don’t agree that they are, why even have minimal problems when you can have none!! That doesn’t make sense to me. The main reason why people don’t like the sprint animation is because they can’t shoot and move at the same time. This has been said countless, countless times. So maybe in your opinion it’s not a big deal that you can’t shoot for that one or two seconds but apparently a lot of other people don’t agree, hence threads like this.

The point of my initial post was that you pretty much implied that games that don’t use a sprint animation won’t do well as they will feel “old” I gave you four examples of games that are first-person shooters that have. You are right that there is a good chunk of things that are opinionated. That goes both ways by the way… So every time you say the sprint animation only affects gameplay minimally, well that’s your opinion right… Lots of people don’t agree with you and lots of people have gone into a lot of depth explaining why. You say the sprint animation is tied into advanced movement and it’s one in the same. I don’t agree with this and lots of other people don’t either and apparently some game developers don’t either, case in point the four games I mentioned.

Look, the way I see things here we can go back and forth all day. You said your piece, I have said mine and it’s pretty apparent that we’re speaking two different languages a lot of the times. It’s hard to have discussions on things when you feel something like the sprint animation mechanic is tied into advanced movement as a whole when I do not for example. To me it is a separate mechanic from say something like double jumping, thrusting, climbing etc We can’t even get our bases covered so to speak…lol If your one of these people that need the last word and want to respond to this, go ahead but I won’t be bothering anymore as I don’t see the point in continuing this as stated above. Good chat though, maybe see you out there.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> Plainly because those games aren’t Halo. They have distinctly different themes, playstyles, and combat ideologies. Were the argument about Halo becoming something else, they would be apt. But that’s not the argument, so how DOOM or Overwatch does things is largely irrelevant.

I have a memory of you saying Halo gameplay has changed.
Changing is altering something in order to turn it into something else.
Using Doom, Overwatch and whatnot as games finding success without sprint, is perdectly fine. Because it’s not an argument in turning Halo into any of those.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> I think it’s a double standard to vie for a return to “Classic Movement”, criticize and shun “Advanced Movement” in Halo, and then use games that have Advanced Movement out the gills as a comparison to how a game can “succeed” without a single mechanic of said Advanced Movement. You’re free, of course, to like and dislike whatever you want, but that doesn’t justify comparing a Doritos Locos taco to a three-layer nacho supreme just because one doesn’t have Cool Ranch tortilla.

Quite the over-simplification, and assumption, that shunning sprint, means shunning every single part of Advanced Movement.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> While it’s been a while, I do remember clambering, thrusters, and the various Spartan Abilities also being argued against in this thread. The inclusion of Advanced Movement in total is not a new angle, it’s one you’ve simply bypassed to focus on Sprint.

You came back into this thread, and the focus you took was sprint.
Overall Advanced Movement didn’t come into the picture until you brought it up, when you didn’t feel like including any games at all into the discussion.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> So you’d be in favor of pressing a button to move faster than BMS? A worse mechanic, actually, as you had to hold down the SHIFT key to do so, rather than have it toggle.

Later releases of OG Doom had it toggable, even early on if I’m not mistaken.
Quality of life update, but the mechanic remains the same.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> And if this is the case then one of the arguments against Sprint (that it only makes players “feel” like they’re going faster) utilizes the exact same function. Conveying an emotion and sense of urgency and rapid movement, both intrinsic to a Spartan experience.

Easily substituted through other means.
Poor way of avoiding the point of vast open spaces and their emotional impact though.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> A design error that is mitigated by the inclusion of a circumstantial and brief Sprint mechanic, to be utilized in such instances while retaining a more consistent BMS in better structured or close-quarters areas. Which would be a problem if the BMS was increased to, say, 125%.

You don’t bandage the entire body if you cut your hand.
Neither do you do it before you’ve been cut.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> And others don’t. Perhaps the player’s vehicle was destroyed. Either way, having a baseline ability to briefly increase movement allows for such circumstantial situations to not be as tedious, which can at worst-case completely spoil the feel and flow of a game. It’s all fun until you have to trudge 500 meters to the next objective with absolutely no vehicle made available to you.

Yes, minesweeper would indeed be a far better game with an undo button.
You mess up, you mess up.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> Yes.

So, what you get out of sprint at this point is:
The emotion of speed and urgency. That’s basically it.

-Escapability is reduced due to stopping power and shield-recharge stop.
-Omni-manouverability reduced.
-Delta between BMS and Sprint was reduced after the beta, meaning the difference between BMS and Sprint is lower than it was before.
-Map scaling and map design choices take sprint speed into account, resulting in a net travel time as seen in previous sprint-less games.
-Combat abilities severely reduced, I’d say eliminated entirely but some do like to count Spartan Charge in, even though it’s arbitrarily just tacked onto sprint, as it’d be entirely possible to have Spartan Charge with no sprint.

And all of those, are “totally worth it”.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> Halo doesn’t require a lot of things that it has; this isn’t an argument. Halo didn’t need a grapplehook, but there it is. It didn’t need bubble shields, gravity lifts, or Sentinel turrets, but there they were in Halo 3. Saying what Halo requires or needs adds just one more unnecessary layer to what is increasingly becoming an argument centered on Opinions.

Exactly, yet.

> 2533274804813082;5492:
> I know for certain that we have had this discussion in the far past. Since then, I cannot tell you how many times while playing Halo: CE through Halo 3: ODST I and people I’m gaming with wish that we could Sprint toward our destination while on foot, even to shave off an extra five seconds. Without Sprint, many areas in those games become tedious and drawn out. I realize this is a matter of perspective and preference, but clearly there is an impact on gameplay enough to where the mechanic can be and is missed in its absence.

Here we are, with that justification for its inclusion.
It’s “needed” for tedious parts of the game.
It’s “needed” to shave of seconds.
It’s “needed” to convey some emotions.
It’s “needed” to bandaid earlier game specific issues.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> If you want to hold to the hope that in some future game Sprint will be removed then you do you. But with a majority of Halo games having Sprint, and with it being a constant core function since 2010, I’d say chances of that are slim.

Oh you.
I do not count on i343, or whatever studio may at some point continue with Halo, to ever remove sprint, I sure hope it’s removed, but I don’t count on it.

Interesting thought though, because it’s been a “core functions” for 10 years, and longer with Infinite, that’d it’d be safe from removal, when the gameplay undoubtedly change at some point again, depending on what kind of gameplay the developers are aiming for.

> 2585548714655118;5504:
> Was there enough in the demo to determine the top speed? It may just take a bit to wind up.
>
> And some have proposed sprinting as a mechanism to initiate other movement options. Once you are sprinting you can then do a longer jump… or move into a slide.
>
> Mobility fans aren’t just about the top speed. It’s about movement options.

I don’t think the use of sprint to initiate other movement is a good reason to keep sprint. Sprint is a mechanism to initiate some movement options, but it is not the only mechanism to initiate those options. If we want to restrict to the existing mechanics of Halo Infinite: if sprint was removed, the sprint activation button could be made a separate slide button. Sliding into a jump could then give you a bit of speed enabling a long jump. That’s both slide and long jump without sprint. This approach is also more extensible, because now you’re not limited to slide in a forward direction, and you can consider allowing players to slide and long jump sideways as a possibility.

I find it a bit unfortunate that sprint is associated with mobility, because it is really bad as a mobility mechanic. Heck, I would argue that sprint is fundamentally anti-mobility, because it is built on restrictions. Even neglecting restrictions not related to movement, its defining movement characteristic is that it restricts maximum movement speed to be strictly in a forward direction. Because of this it restricts the ways players can interact with their environment, since making certain jumps now requires the player to face forward, making movement more about getting to places while out of combat and less about being intertwined with combat.

Even if we don’t focus on the fact that sprint restricts movement, it’s ultimately just a speed boost. It’s functionally no more “mobility oriented” than just having a faster base movement speed to begin with. The properties of sprint that distinguish it from other mechanics have nothing to do with its speed, or the mechanics it can initiate. The unique defining properties of sprint are the restrictions it imposes on the player.

The other thing is: I would identify as a “mobility fan”. I don’t agree with the design of Halo 5 Spartan Abilities. I don’t agree with the way triple-A shooters tend to approach mobility in the form of canned animations. But movement is the lens through which I view much of game design. I wouldn’t hesitate to characterize Halo as a platformer, because I believe its movement is at least as important as the shooting. If we could magically just end this silly debate about sprint and Halo 5’s brand of advanced movement, you could even see me advocating some kind of advanced movement mechanics.

I want Halo to have interesting movement with meaningful movement options. What falls within “interesting” and “meaningful” for me is just more complex than “Spartan go zoooom!” Sprint comes in the way of all of that.

> 2533274804813082;5507:
> Y’know, I’ve seen the inability to move and shoot more than I have the animation be an issue. But go ahead and tack on one more issue that boils down to opinion. And yes, Sprint removes your ability to move and shoot. Just like dual wielding removed your ability to use grenades. Yet both literally take less than a second to cancel or revert. The “problems” presented by Sprint as a mechanic are minimal at most, and opinion-based at least.

Even a half second delay, in a game where you can be potentially killed in less than a second, is quite significant, and will inevitably play an effect on the overall combat puzzle. Particularly when talking about an ever-present mechanic that is so frequently used.

> 2535418045865871;5501:
> Judging from the trailer the base movement speed is pretty fast and sprinting is a minor boost in speed, which looks nice and seems like the most appropriate way of doing it to me. Sliding looks good in the demo too, looks like you can fire immediately out of sprint and slide so there’s no actual downtime in gameplay whilst also giving enhanced movement. Thrusters and spartan charge do not look like they are returning which is great in my opinion as enhanced movement is one thing but spamming abilities and flying around the map in the middle of gunfights is another. Looks like the essence of classic movement with a little enhanced movement sprinkled on top. Also looks like clamber is coming back which is good as that makes jumping ledges a little easier and forgiving and crouch jumping is still an option. I think this will be the best iteration of Halo movement to date as it has all the best parts of modern upgrades whilst maintaining the feeling of Halo.

I made some similar observations. In the demo the Mangler seems to be shot immediately out of sprint without a noticeable delay. The Pistol in Halo 5 could do this, and a few other weapons, but the majority still have a delay. It will be interesting if this is universal. The gap between sprint speed and base movement doesn’t seem large. It looks to me like base movement speed has been increased but sprint speed has stayed about the same, but it’s hard to say. But then the speed difference between Running and Sprinting isn’t as big as the difference between jogging and Sprinting. And base movement IS running speed! Not jogging! Like many have asserted. So to me that works. And Speaking as a forger a smaller speed gap will be helpful for map design.

Chief also melees straight out of sprint which suggests spartan charge is gone. Thank the Guardians. He also seems to shoot immediately after sliding, which is great in my books. It also looks like you don’t need to sprint for very long at all to slide, if at all, it appeared almost instant. Makes me wonder if slide is even directly connected to sprint, it could just me connected to momentum/ ground speed and Sprint isn’t the awkward middle man. I would like that if it is the case. And it looked like you can slide at an off angle, which again I think is good. No evidence of thrusters or ground pound too.

It appears some steps have been made towards a more classic inspired movement system. Even if true ‘Classic movement’ has not returned. I think the removal of time delays will have some positive effect of restoring the ‘Halo dance’. To me a big part of Halo was the ability ‘come back’/ shoot and strafe out of a bad situation even if the other player got the first shot. I don’t think there should be such a punishment for basic map traversal as the delays to shooting. Just as an example, what if jumping delayed you from shooting? It would make sense canonically, it would even create a risk vs reward dynamic when deciding when to jump. But would it be good? Guardians No. How much would you loose in combat if jumping was punished?
…Yeah I’m not a fan of the time delays.

> 2533274797849057;5512:
> > 2533274804813082;5507:
> > Y’know, I’ve seen the inability to move and shoot more than I have the animation be an issue. But go ahead and tack on one more issue that boils down to opinion. And yes, Sprint removes your ability to move and shoot. Just like dual wielding removed your ability to use grenades. Yet both literally take less than a second to cancel or revert. The “problems” presented by Sprint as a mechanic are minimal at most, and opinion-based at least.
>
> Even a half second delay, in a game where you can be potentially killed in less than a second, is quite significant, and will inevitably play an effect on the overall combat puzzle. Particularly when talking about an ever-present mechanic that is so frequently used.
>
>
> > 2535418045865871;5501:
> > Judging from the trailer the base movement speed is pretty fast and sprinting is a minor boost in speed, which looks nice and seems like the most appropriate way of doing it to me. Sliding looks good in the demo too, looks like you can fire immediately out of sprint and slide so there’s no actual downtime in gameplay whilst also giving enhanced movement. Thrusters and spartan charge do not look like they are returning which is great in my opinion as enhanced movement is one thing but spamming abilities and flying around the map in the middle of gunfights is another. Looks like the essence of classic movement with a little enhanced movement sprinkled on top. Also looks like clamber is coming back which is good as that makes jumping ledges a little easier and forgiving and crouch jumping is still an option. I think this will be the best iteration of Halo movement to date as it has all the best parts of modern upgrades whilst maintaining the feeling of Halo.
>
> I made some similar observations. In the demo the Mangler seems to be shot immediately out of sprint without a noticeable delay. The Pistol in Halo 5 could do this, and a few other weapons, but the majority still have a delay. It will be interesting if this is universal. The gap between sprint speed and base movement doesn’t seem large. It looks to me like base movement speed has been increased but sprint speed has stayed about the same, but it’s hard to say. But then the speed difference between Running and Sprinting isn’t as big as the difference between jogging and Sprinting. And base movement IS running speed! Not jogging! Like many have asserted. So to me that works. And Speaking as a forger a smaller speed gap will be helpful for map design.
>
> Chief also melees straight out of sprint which suggests spartan charge is gone. Thank the Guardians. He also seems to shoot immediately after sliding, which is great in my books. It also looks like you don’t need to sprint for very long at all to slide, if at all, it appeared almost instant. Makes me wonder if slide is even directly connected to sprint, it could just me connected to momentum/ ground speed and Sprint isn’t the awkward middle man. I would like that if it is the case. And it looked like you can slide at an off angle, which again I think is good. No evidence of thrusters or ground pound to.
>
> It appears some steps have been made towards a more classic inspired movement system. Even if true ‘Classic movement’ has not returned. I think the removal of time delays will have some positive effect of restoring the ‘Halo dance’. To me a big part of Halo was the ability ‘come back’/ shoot and strafe out of a bad situation even if the other player got the first shot. I don’t think there should be such a punishment for basic map traversal as the delays to shooting. Just as an example, what if jumping delayed you from shooting? It would make sense canonically, it would even create a risk vs reward dynamic when deciding when to jump. But would it be good? Guardians No. How much would you loose in combat if jumping was punished?
> …Yeah I’m not a fan of the time delays.

It doesn’t matter how slow sprint is compared to BMS, it’s still there and effects the game and makes Halo feel generic. Classic fans will never be satisfied with a half-solution and 343 took the worst road possible, pleasing neither the classic fans or the H5 fans.

> 2535458188883243;5513:
> It doesn’t matter how slow sprint is compared to BMS, it’s still there and effects the game and makes Halo feel generic. Classic fans will never be satisfied with a half-solution and 343 took the worst road possible, pleasing neither the classic fans or the H5 fans.

I agree with you to an extent. Halo would do better trying to stand out rather than blend in. But at this point Sprint has been around for 3 straight games, the latest game pushed ‘advanced mobility’ hard. It would probably be quite jarring for newer fans to just go all the way back to classic movement. There would probably be quite a back lash.

I would personally prefer a no sprint Halo. Slide I would keep… even without Sprint. But I digress. At the most basic level I judge new gameplay additions on 2 things: Is it fun/engaging to use? Is it fun/engaging to fight against? I think Sprint could be argued to tick the first point (though I dont feel it myself), but I can’t see how any compelling argument for it ticking the second. On that ground alone I would get rid of it.

> 2533274804813082;5507:
> Just like dual wielding removed your ability to use grenades. Yet both literally take less than a second to cancel or revert.

If I recall correctly, one of the reasons behind the eventual demise of dual wielding was that it discouraged players from using grenades. This is of course secondary to the fact that by Halo 3 dual wielding was so impotent that one could safely neglect its existence: it didn’t force players to give up anything because it offered no real advantage. Not to mention of course that players never spawned dual wielding weapons. I can assure you that we wouldn’t be having this discussion if sprint was an equally useless map pick-up.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> > 2533274833081329;5495:
> > It’s not “X game did well because of not having sprint”, it’s “X game did well while not having sprint.”
>
> That is a very thin distinction, especially when the crux of the argument is that Advanced Movement “ruined” Halo. Sprint tends to be the focal point, yet you also see quite a bit of mention for Spartan Abilities. To focus on one mechanic that another game omits (but not really; simply an appearance of omission due to class-based gameplay or the lack of a triggering mechanism) is the makings of a flawed argument.

Your conversation was never under the impression of “Advanced Movement ‘ruined’ Halo.” Sprint is the focal point because that’s what you guys were talking about. Judge a mechanic as a mechanic, not a package of mechanics.

Just because one may say “Sprint bad” doesn’t mean they also automatically believe “Thruster bad” by association. Just like just because one person says “Sprint good” doesn’t mean they have to automatically believe “Spartan Charge good” by association.

You don’t have the room to expand “Sprint” to “all advanced movement”, because that’s not only the making of a flawed argument, that just is a strawman. You’re purposely misrepresenting their argument and debating what they didn’t say.

As far as you should be concerned, I like every single Spartan Ability except for sprint and would not want them removed.

> 2533274797849057;5514:
> > 2535458188883243;5513:
> > It doesn’t matter how slow sprint is compared to BMS, it’s still there and effects the game and makes Halo feel generic. Classic fans will never be satisfied with a half-solution and 343 took the worst road possible, pleasing neither the classic fans or the H5 fans.
>
> I agree with you to an extent. Halo would do better trying to stand out rather than blend in. But at this point Sprint has been around for 3 straight games, the latest game pushed ‘advanced mobility’ hard. It would probably be quite jarring for newer fans to just go all the way back to classic movement. There would probably be quite a back lash.
>
> I would personally prefer a no sprint Halo. Slide I would keep… even without Sprint. But I digress. At the most basic level I judge new gameplay additions on 2 things: Is it fun/engaging to use? Is it fun/engaging to fight against? I think Sprint could be argued to tick the first point (though I dont feel it myself), but I can’t see how any compelling argument for it ticking the second. On that ground alone I would get rid of it.

Screw the new fans, they will only stick around for a month and either A: switch to whatever new trendy game is going on or B: go back to fornite or COD as it’s closer to what they prefer. Halo needs to stop trying to attract newer fans when the market is so saturated and younger players are so hostile to maintaining a consistent playerbase that’s it’s not worth ruining Halo’s legacy so some zoomers can run fast.

Aside from that it, fun is very important factor but it shouldn’t dictate how the game is made. Personally I would remove slide too, it serves no purpose without sprint and really has no place in Halo anyhow ( what purpose does it serve other than filling the AAA-redundancy checklist? ) It probably barley lowers your hitbox and lowers your weapon for a frame or 2 so why have it.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> > 2533274833081329;5495:
> > It’s not “X game did well because of not having sprint”, it’s “X game did well while not having sprint.”
>
> That is a very thin distinction, especially when the crux of the argument is that Advanced Movement “ruined” Halo. Sprint tends to be the focal point, yet you also see quite a bit of mention for Spartan Abilities. To focus on one mechanic that another game omits (but not really; simply an appearance of omission due to class-based gameplay or the lack of a triggering mechanism) is the makings of a flawed argument.

The reply was provided due to your claim that sprint is mandatory in a modern shooter. The focus was already placed on one mechanic in particular with your input, does this make your argument flawed? Your re-entry into this thread was to specifically mention sprint and how comparison to older (I assume Halo) games is futile, when modern examples appear you then pivot to advanced movement in your reply to Dead End 24. The crux of the argument is that sprint doesn’t belong in Halo, the ‘sprint’ thread existed 2 games prior to Halo 5’s existence, prior to ‘advanced movement’ existing as a concept. Having movement options isn’t a bad thing, others may disagree with me but you could most likely categorize most of 343s negative gameplay changes into 3 categories.

  1. Forcing the player to choose between movement or combat (combat in this sense being any non-movement action - shooting, reloading, throwing, punching) where it didn’t exist prior to Reach.
  2. Placing all the power on spawn instead of on the map (which is what i would argue is the majority of criticism toward advanced movement, Reach mlg had jetpack and evade pick-ups and it worked great, barely any criticism or negativity)
  3. Introduction of a lot of randomness (more of the issue with H4, loadouts and ordnance etc)

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> Plainly because those games aren’t Halo. They have distinctly different themes, playstyles, and combat ideologies. Were the argument about Halo becoming something else, they would be apt. But that’s not the argument, so how DOOM or Overwatch does things is largely irrelevant.

So why are your comparisons to other games, and why Halo needs a sprint mechanic relevant? If those games aren’t Halo why is it a worthy comparison? They have distinctly different themes, playstyles and combat ideologies. The argument since the introduction of sprint is that Halo has become something else with the inclusion of sprint, because of the popularity of another game that has different themes, playstyles and combat ideologies.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> I think it’s a double standard to vie for a return to “Classic Movement”, criticize and shun “Advanced Movement” in Halo, and then use games that have Advanced Movement out the gills as a comparison to how a game can “succeed” without a single mechanic of said Advanced Movement. You’re free, of course, to like and dislike whatever you want, but that doesn’t justify comparing a Doritos Locos taco to a three-layer nacho supreme just because one doesn’t have Cool Ranch tortilla.

CSGO and Valorant are examples (that have been given) that both shoot down sprint AND advanced movement however, and are the most popular shooters. While the thread is named classic movement mechanics this is one of roughly 5 mega-sprint threads since Reach. In the 275 pages in question there are many ideas thrown about on how to involve more movement options without the inclusion of sprint or the dumb ways Halo 5 did it (ground pound, and sprint related movement combos) and as above how we have already had acceptance of movement options as map pick-ups rather than all power on spawn. What the examples do show is that sprint isn’t necessary.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> While it’s been a while, I do remember clambering, thrusters, and the various Spartan Abilities also being argued against in this thread. The inclusion of Advanced Movement in total is not a new angle, it’s one you’ve simply bypassed to focus on Sprint.
>
>
> “Every map can be played without Sprint. Even in Halo 4 and 5.
> But it’s pretty clear at this point that Sprint is here to stay, so continuing to argue against it using old games as metric for comparison is really just wailing in futility. I get that people have their own opinions, but clearly Halo gameplay has changed.”

You focused on sprint and the replies are rebutting the point you made, instead of facing them head on you pivoted to advanced movement. Advanced movement wasn’t in Reach or 4 and aside from a grapple hook it looks like it isn’t in Infinite. Sprint is the crux of the issue, always has been.

> 2533274804813082;5506:
> So you’d be in favor of pressing a button to move faster than BMS? A worse mechanic, actually, as you had to hold down the SHIFT key to do so, rather than have it toggle.

There was an autorun toggle. Also in doom you didn’t have to sacrifice movement for combat. DOOM was also more claustrophobic and the levels were short, you wouldn’t need to hold it down for long. Apples to Oranges, comparisons to other games wouldn’t be needed if pro-sprint arguments didn’t devolve into " x game has this so Halo needs to ‘modernise’ " and failing to engage in mechanics discussions which don’t reference outside material.

> Y’know, I’ve seen the inability to move and shoot more than I have the animation be an issue. But go ahead and tack on one more issue that boils down to opinion. And yes, Sprint removes your ability to move and shoot. Just like dual wielding removed your ability to use grenades. Yet both literally take less than a second to cancel or revert. The “problems” presented by Sprint as a mechanic are minimal at most, and opinion-based at least.

The sprinting player has all the power, if they want to escape would they cancel? no. Where does it leave the player shooting? Once line of sight is broken they either run to see again or disengage. Even during advantage with the shooter being full shields and the other player being weak, in many / most cases once the sprinter gets away it is now the shooter in the weak position. If they chase they can get collapsed on, if they don’t they lose out and possibly jumped from being distracted with a kill they can’t get. The mechanic punishes aggression, pressure and control, the staple of why Halo plays like Halo and not a stop’n’pop game.

This scenario doesn’t exist in the shooters halo needs to ‘modernise’ with, like CoD, Battlefield etc because they have near instant kill times. Because of Halos longer kill times and higher requirement of accuracy, not being able to move at top speed and engage in combat has fundamentally altered the game. If Halo was permanently in sprint speed with the ability to shoot i’m sure there would be criticism, i wouldn’t be overly joyed with it, but it would be a far better solution than sprint in Halo. Even at quake speeds uniform movespeed is better than what sprint imposes onto Halo gameplay. We tried it in Reach, no sprint with movement pick-ups plays great.

As one of the more vocal anti-sprint posters i’m not opposed to movement options in the game, as a weapon, pick-up or map design it’s great, but when all of the power is at spawn then it isn’t Halo. The high action per minute requirement that Halo 5 forced the player to deal with isn’t indicative of movement options as a whole, just that Halo 5’s movement system sucks. It is too mechanical for new players to enter the game and too different for fans of the series to enjoy. It’s more of a fringe enjoyment than Halo 4 was, and 4 was a storm of random gameplay.

This thread is absolutely amazing.

Btw, sprint ruined map design. Compare Midship in H2 to the remake in H5. H5 Midship is like Blood Gulch compared to H2/H3… prove me wrong.

Also: What is the likelihood that 343 even cares/acknowledges this thread exists?

Someone earlier mentioned they would have loved to sprint past certain enounters in H3 ODST. Doesnt that prove every point the anti-sprinters are making? Sprint ruins the formula that the game is supposed to follow. If you can sprint out of every encounter, campaign and MP, are you even playing the game the way it was meant to be played?

Doesn’t seem like it.

Close quarters combat of the Halo sandbox was defined by small maps like Lockout, Warlock, Midship, Etc. These maps were easily traversed without sprint. Big maps in classic sandbox were traversed by vehicles, teleporters, mancannons, etc. It made sense.

Now we have these elongated monstrosities like H5 midship that make no damn sense to the point that you MUST sprint to get anywhere. But if the time to get to the other teams side of the map is the same with the additon of sprint with the combination of elongated maps, what was the point of adding sprint at all? Nothing. It was added to please and attract COD players because 343 = lazy during the H4-H5 days. Halo Infinite? Yet to be seen.

> 2533274824125565;5519:
> This thread is absolutely amazing.

That it is. Very interesting seeing the debate from all sides.

> 2533274824125565;5519:
> Btw, sprint ruined map design. Compare Midship in H2 to the remake in H5. H5 Midship is like Blood Gulch compared to H2/H3… prove me wrong.

It definitely changed map design. Ruined is a bit subjective though.

You’re not wrong though with the remakes. It’s foolish to expect them to play the same.

> 2533274824125565;5519:
> Also: What is the likelihood that 343 even cares/acknowledges this thread exists?

I have no doubt they care. How much will depend on their internal projections about populations - what are the numbers, which has the most growth potential, who are more likely to spend on microtransactions… and so on.

> 2533274824125565;5519:
> Someone earlier mentioned they would have loved to sprint past certain enounters in H3 ODST. Doesnt that prove every point the anti-sprinters are making? Sprint ruins the formula that the game is supposed to follow. If you can sprint out of every encounter, campaign and MP, are you even playing the game the way it was meant to be played?

But in that case, they would have designed the game differently?

> 2533274824125565;5519:
> Close quarters combat of the Halo sandbox was defined by small maps like Lockout, Warlock, Midship, Etc. These maps were easily traversed without sprint. Big maps in classic sandbox were traversed by vehicles, teleporters, mancannons, etc. It made sense.

It does. And still is. The arena maps are bigger - but not vehicle big. And the vehicles on BTB maps are not superceded by sprint. The scales have only changed a bit.

> 2533274824125565;5519:
> Now we have these elongated monstrosities like H5 midship that make no damn sense to the point that you MUST sprint to get anywhere. But if the time to get to the other teams side of the map is the same with the additon of sprint with the combination of elongated maps, what was the point of adding sprint at all? Nothing. It was added to please and attract COD players because 343 = lazy during the H4-H5 days. Halo Infinite? Yet to be seen.

H5 maps make sense when you sprint. So sprint. You sprint for mobility and then slow down for engagements. The combat system has changed. Some actually think for the better.

I love H5 multiplayer. Watching good players / teams swarm around the map is a thing of beauty. I just wish I could do it.

> 2585548714655118;5504:
> > 2533274923428997;5502:
> > > 2535418045865871;5501:
> > > Judging from the trailer the base movement speed is pretty fast and sprinting is a minor boost in speed, which looks nice and seems like the most appropriate way of doing it to me. Sliding looks good in the demo too, looks like you can fire immediately out of sprint and slide so there’s no actual downtime in gameplay whilst also giving enhanced movement. Thrusters and spartan charge do not look like they are returning which is great in my opinion as enhanced movement is one thing but spamming abilities and flying around the map in the middle of gunfights is another. Looks like the essence of classic movement with a little enhanced movement sprinkled on top. Also looks like clamber is coming back which is good as that makes jumping ledges a little easier and forgiving and crouch jumping is still an option. I think this will be the best iteration of Halo movement to date as it has all the best parts of modern upgrades whilst maintaining the feeling of Halo.
> >
> > If sprinting only provides a minor increase in speed, what’s the point of including it at all? 343 isn’t gonna make anyone happy by trying to play ‘both sides’ here. Either it’s in, or it isnt. Nerfing the sprint is going to make mobility fans upset because it’s weak and they don’t feel like juiced super soldiers, and classic fans aren’t happy because sprint still is going to introduce the myriad of problems to the sandbox and maps that have been covered extensively in this thread
>
> Was there enough in the demo to determine the top speed? It may just take a bit to wind up.
>
> And some have proposed sprinting as a mechanism to initiate other movement options. Once you are sprinting you can then do a longer jump… or move into a slide.
>
> Mobility fans aren’t just about the top speed. It’s about movement options.

Once again doom eternal proves this argument wrong