The return of classic movement mechanics?

C0RRuPTT · December 26, 2020, 2:04am

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> > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > >
> > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > >
> > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > >
> > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > >
> > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> >
> > Man, you need to read
> > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
>
> “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
>
> now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.

This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.

Ryan_lfc_92 · December 26, 2020, 2:47am

> 2533274866906624;5142:
> > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > >
> > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > >
> > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > >
> > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > >
> > > Man, you need to read
> > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> >
> > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> >
> > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
>
> This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.

i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.

being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.

C0RRuPTT · December 26, 2020, 11:54pm

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> > 2533274866906624;5142:
> > > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > > >
> > > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > > >
> > > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > > >
> > > > Man, you need to read
> > > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> > >
> > > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> > >
> > > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
> >
> > This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.
>
> i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.
>
> being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.

Did you try the thrust in the Mythic Arena playlist? It was much less powerful than the vanilla H5 thrust, and was much more useful for a quick change of direction and making unique jumps. Agree that the original H5 thrust is overpowering and can turn the tide of a battle with its single use.

Ryan_lfc_92 · December 27, 2020, 12:32am

> 2533274866906624;5144:
> > 2533274821339472;5143:
> > > 2533274866906624;5142:
> > > > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > > > >
> > > > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > > > >
> > > > > Man, you need to read
> > > > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> > > >
> > > > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> > > >
> > > > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
> > >
> > > This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.
> >
> > i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.
> >
> > being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.
>
> Did you try the thrust in the Mythic Arena playlist? It was much less powerful than the vanilla H5 thrust, and was much more useful for a quick change of direction and making unique jumps. Agree that the original H5 thrust is overpowering and can turn the tide of a battle with its single use.

yes , less powered thruster is much better but it still has the same problems i listed, but not as bad.

making unique jumps, changes the chess like nature of halos gameplay into something more random and unpredictable. thruster would be fine as a powerup to fight for so that only 1 guy has unique jumps with limited use in a match.

commando544 · December 27, 2020, 3:04pm

While we argue here about how to make a better Halo, people over in the community forums are defending H4 and saying we should continue with that style.
Makes sense why 343 never does anything right when half the community just wants COD-Halo.

> 2533274821339472;5145:
> > 2533274866906624;5144:
> > > 2533274821339472;5143:
> > > > 2533274866906624;5142:
> > > > > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > > > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Man, you need to read
> > > > > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > > > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> > > > >
> > > > > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> > > > >
> > > > > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
> > > >
> > > > This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.
> > >
> > > i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.
> > >
> > > being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.
> >
> > Did you try the thrust in the Mythic Arena playlist? It was much less powerful than the vanilla H5 thrust, and was much more useful for a quick change of direction and making unique jumps. Agree that the original H5 thrust is overpowering and can turn the tide of a battle with its single use.
>
> yes , less powered thruster is much better but it still has the same problems i listed, but not as bad.
>
> making unique jumps, changes the chess like nature of halos gameplay into something more random and unpredictable. thruster would be fine as a powerup to fight for so that only 1 guy has unique jumps with limited use in a match.

What’s wrong with player-bound RNG? in CE everything is on a timer and is set in stone but I can still move as randomly as I want, thruster is the same thing

Ryan_lfc_92 · December 28, 2020, 12:09pm

> 2535458188883243;5146:
> While we argue here about how to make a better Halo, people over in the community forums are defending H4 and saying we should continue with that style.
> Makes sense why 343 never does anything right when half the community just wants COD-Halo.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274821339472;5145:
> > > 2533274866906624;5144:
> > > > 2533274821339472;5143:
> > > > > 2533274866906624;5142:
> > > > > > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Man, you need to read
> > > > > > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > > > > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
> > > > >
> > > > > This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.
> > > >
> > > > i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.
> > > >
> > > > being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.
> > >
> > > Did you try the thrust in the Mythic Arena playlist? It was much less powerful than the vanilla H5 thrust, and was much more useful for a quick change of direction and making unique jumps. Agree that the original H5 thrust is overpowering and can turn the tide of a battle with its single use.
> >
> > yes , less powered thruster is much better but it still has the same problems i listed, but not as bad.
> >
> > making unique jumps, changes the chess like nature of halos gameplay into something more random and unpredictable. thruster would be fine as a powerup to fight for so that only 1 guy has unique jumps with limited use in a match.
>
> What’s wrong with player-bound RNG? in CE ev erything is on a timer and is set in stone but I can still move as randomly as I want, thruster is the same thing

ive already explained how thruster changes jumping. thruster makes probably 100 different routes possible on classic maps which would make them feel even smaller, unpredictable and create too much chaos. halo was great for its sense of control. you cant control a chaotic game. so in halo 5, map designs are more generic in order to balance when everyone has thruster.

when it comes to fights, thruster ruins classic halo’s most consistent mechanics, the melee and the grenade. I could always punish players when i got close to someone or they get too close to me. thruster made the melee and grenade unreliable for quick close range kills and so players stuck to medium long range combat when possible. close range ttk in halo 5 is a chaotic mess that should be avoided if you want any sense of control. thruster basically helps bad positioning and is most effective at close range when it completely ruins the classic close range ttk. All of this resulted in a generic sweaty teamshooting focused game.

sprint creates some chaos too but it would be fine if damage knocks people out of sprint

Ryan_lfc_92 · December 28, 2020, 11:49pm

i just had a quick look at halo 3 maps with sprint and clamber. i think we will see popular maps like the pit, narrows and high ground remade for halo infinite. i think any of the btb maps could be remade too. i think they will try to fit in as many classic maps as possible as its highly likely they are also including a halo 1 map death island judging from some screenshots.

Darwi · December 29, 2020, 12:55am

> 2533274821339472;5148:
> i just had a quick look at halo 3 maps with sprint and clamber. i think we will see popular maps like the pit, narrows and high ground remade for halo infinite. i think any of the btb maps could be remade too. i think they will try to fit in as many classic maps as possible as its highly likely they are also including a halo 1 map death island judging from some screenshots.

Isn’t there an inherent danger of going too nostalgic too early?

The last thing they want is for the forums to be flooded with complaints from people who remember who they used to dominate from a certain position with a certain weapon and find they now struggle because x, y, and z have changed.

QtoCool · December 29, 2020, 8:31am

I know I sound like a broken record but I’m convinced that if 343i took some notes out of the doom/doom eternal book the halo community would be happy

Ryan_lfc_92 · December 29, 2020, 8:59am

> 2585548714655118;5149:
> > 2533274821339472;5148:
> > i just had a quick look at halo 3 maps with sprint and clamber. i think we will see popular maps like the pit, narrows and high ground remade for halo infinite. i think any of the btb maps could be remade too. i think they will try to fit in as many classic maps as possible as its highly likely they are also including a halo 1 map death island judging from some screenshots.
>
> Isn’t there an inherent danger of going too nostalgic too early?
>
> The last thing they want is for the forums to be flooded with complaints from people who remember who they used to dominate from a certain position with a certain weapon and find they now struggle because x, y, and z have changed.

I think infinite is trying to go back to the classic gun play so it should work familiar enough. I think there will be about 10 remakes and 15 original maps with most of the remakes being btb.

commando544 · December 29, 2020, 5:35pm

> 2533274821339472;5147:
> > 2535458188883243;5146:
> > While we argue here about how to make a better Halo, people over in the community forums are defending H4 and saying we should continue with that style.
> > Makes sense why 343 never does anything right when half the community just wants COD-Halo.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274821339472;5145:
> > > > 2533274866906624;5144:
> > > > > 2533274821339472;5143:
> > > > > > 2533274866906624;5142:
> > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Man, you need to read
> > > > > > > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > > > > > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.
> > > > >
> > > > > i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.
> > > > >
> > > > > being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.
> > > >
> > > > Did you try the thrust in the Mythic Arena playlist? It was much less powerful than the vanilla H5 thrust, and was much more useful for a quick change of direction and making unique jumps. Agree that the original H5 thrust is overpowering and can turn the tide of a battle with its single use.
> > >
> > > yes , less powered thruster is much better but it still has the same problems i listed, but not as bad.
> > >
> > > making unique jumps, changes the chess like nature of halos gameplay into something more random and unpredictable. thruster would be fine as a powerup to fight for so that only 1 guy has unique jumps with limited use in a match.
> >
> > What’s wrong with player-bound RNG? in CE ev erything is on a timer and is set in stone but I can still move as randomly as I want, thruster is the same thing
>
> ive already explained how thruster changes jumping. thruster makes probably 100 different routes possible on classic maps which would make them feel even smaller, unpredictable and create too much chaos. halo was great for its sense of control. you cant control a chaotic game. so in halo 5, map designs are more generic in order to balance when everyone has thruster.
>
> when it comes to fights, thruster ruins classic halo’s most consistent mechanics, the melee and the grenade. I could always punish players when i got close to someone or they get too close to me. thruster made the melee and grenade unreliable for quick close range kills and so players stuck to medium long range combat when possible. close range ttk in halo 5 is a chaotic mess that should be avoided if you want any sense of control. thruster basically helps bad positioning and is most effective at close range when it completely ruins the classic close range ttk. All of this resulted in a generic sweaty teamshooting focused game.
>
> sprint creates some chaos too but it would be fine if damage knocks people out of sprint

Every single issue you bring up with thruster can be applied to sprint, and if you’re solution is to be knocked out of sprint whenever taking any form of damage then you might as well not include it.

Ryan_lfc_92 · December 29, 2020, 6:15pm

> 2535458188883243;5152:
> > 2533274821339472;5147:
> > > 2535458188883243;5146:
> > > While we argue here about how to make a better Halo, people over in the community forums are defending H4 and saying we should continue with that style.
> > > Makes sense why 343 never does anything right when half the community just wants COD-Halo.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274821339472;5145:
> > > > > 2533274866906624;5144:
> > > > > > 2533274821339472;5143:
> > > > > > > 2533274866906624;5142:
> > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Man, you need to read
> > > > > > > > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > > > > > > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.
> > > > >
> > > > > Did you try the thrust in the Mythic Arena playlist? It was much less powerful than the vanilla H5 thrust, and was much more useful for a quick change of direction and making unique jumps. Agree that the original H5 thrust is overpowering and can turn the tide of a battle with its single use.
> > > >
> > > > yes , less powered thruster is much better but it still has the same problems i listed, but not as bad.
> > > >
> > > > making unique jumps, changes the chess like nature of halos gameplay into something more random and unpredictable. thruster would be fine as a powerup to fight for so that only 1 guy has unique jumps with limited use in a match.
> > >
> > > What’s wrong with player-bound RNG? in CE ev erything is on a timer and is set in stone but I can still move as randomly as I want, thruster is the same thing
> >
> > ive already explained how thruster changes jumping. thruster makes probably 100 different routes possible on classic maps which would make them feel even smaller, unpredictable and create too much chaos. halo was great for its sense of control. you cant control a chaotic game. so in halo 5, map designs are more generic in order to balance when everyone has thruster.
> >
> > when it comes to fights, thruster ruins classic halo’s most consistent mechanics, the melee and the grenade. I could always punish players when i got close to someone or they get too close to me. thruster made the melee and grenade unreliable for quick close range kills and so players stuck to medium long range combat when possible. close range ttk in halo 5 is a chaotic mess that should be avoided if you want any sense of control. thruster basically helps bad positioning and is most effective at close range when it completely ruins the classic close range ttk. All of this resulted in a generic sweaty teamshooting focused game.
> >
> > sprint creates some chaos too but it would be fine if damage knocks people out of sprint
>
> Every single issue you bring up with thruster can be applied to sprint, and if you’re solution is to be knocked out of sprint whenever taking any form of damage then you might as well not include it.

some of it can be applied to sprint. thruster could be disabled when shot. however, thruster still breaks map design far more than sprint and leads to generic maps to keep routes balanced or chaotic unpredictable classic maps with too many routes

commando544 · December 29, 2020, 6:24pm

> 2533274821339472;5153:
> > 2535458188883243;5152:
> > > 2533274821339472;5147:
> > > > 2535458188883243;5146:
> > > > While we argue here about how to make a better Halo, people over in the community forums are defending H4 and saying we should continue with that style.
> > > > Makes sense why 343 never does anything right when half the community just wants COD-Halo.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2533274821339472;5145:
> > > > > > 2533274866906624;5144:
> > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5143:
> > > > > > > > 2533274866906624;5142:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Man, you need to read
> > > > > > > > > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > > > > > > > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did you try the thrust in the Mythic Arena playlist? It was much less powerful than the vanilla H5 thrust, and was much more useful for a quick change of direction and making unique jumps. Agree that the original H5 thrust is overpowering and can turn the tide of a battle with its single use.
> > > > >
> > > > > yes , less powered thruster is much better but it still has the same problems i listed, but not as bad.
> > > > >
> > > > > making unique jumps, changes the chess like nature of halos gameplay into something more random and unpredictable. thruster would be fine as a powerup to fight for so that only 1 guy has unique jumps with limited use in a match.
> > > >
> > > > What’s wrong with player-bound RNG? in CE ev erything is on a timer and is set in stone but I can still move as randomly as I want, thruster is the same thing
> > >
> > > i
> >
> > Every single issue you bring up with thruster can be applied to sprint, and if you’re solution is to be knocked out of sprint whenever taking any form of damage then you might as well not include it.
>
> some of it can be applied to sprint. thruster could be disabled when shot. however, thruster still breaks map design far more than sprint and leads to generic maps to keep routes balanced or chaotic unpredictable classic maps with too many routes

I mean, you’re wrong

Sprint has a much bigger impact on map design because it can be used at all times for a speed boost, thrust is limited to a short momentum increase with a long cooldown.

Ryan_lfc_92 · December 29, 2020, 6:42pm

> 2535458188883243;5154:
> > 2533274821339472;5153:
> > > 2535458188883243;5152:
> > > > 2533274821339472;5147:
> > > > > 2535458188883243;5146:
> > > > > While we argue here about how to make a better Halo, people over in the community forums are defending H4 and saying we should continue with that style.
> > > > > Makes sense why 343 never does anything right when half the community just wants COD-Halo.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 2533274821339472;5145:
> > > > > > > 2533274866906624;5144:
> > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5143:
> > > > > > > > > 2533274866906624;5142:
> > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5141:
> > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5139:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5135:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5134:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5133:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2535458188883243;5132:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;5131:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2533274825830455;5108:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days I’ve been taking precision measurements of map perimeters in Halo 3 and 5 in order to compute the areas of the maps. I now have the results, which I’ve summarized in this map size graphic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The bottom line is that no matter which way you cut it, the median area of non-BTB Halo 5 maps is about 30% larger than that of the corresponding Halo 3 maps. However, if one looks further into how the map sizes actually distribute, there are a number of things one can notice:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Whereas Halo 5 maps are very much bunched around the median size, Halo 3 maps are much more evenly spread in size. - Consequently, there are six maps in Halo 3 (Blackout, Cold Storage, Construct, Epitaph, Guardian, Heretic) that are smaller than the smallest map in Halo 5 (Molten). - The tail end of the Halo 3 map distribution is dominated by four maps that in their default configuration contain a Ghost as a vehicle, and are designed with that in mind (High Ground, Isolation, Longshore, Snowbound). Halo 5 with its strict arena mindset has no corresponding maps. - If we only consider strictly pure arena maps (not forged) in both games (maps optimized for infantry play with no consideration for vehicles; Breakout maps in Halo 5 excluded), the median area of Halo 5 arena maps is about 80% larger than the median area of Halo 3 arena maps. (If we include forged maps, the discrepancy becomes larger.)With these statistics, we can’t conclusively say that movement mechanics are the culprit, but this is very consistent with the principle that map size is mostly influenced by the fastest transit method available on the map, i.e., pure infantry map sizes are primarily guided by maximum movement speed, while sizes of maps containing vehicles are primarily driven by decisions revolving around vehicular play.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Sprint: Episode 1 "Balance" - YouTube
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from this clip, we can see thruster and clamber had a big influence on h5 map size. It also kinda explains why we got no same sized classic remakes regardless of them being big or small. i played the pit with halo 5 settings and it was completely different with clamber and thrust. I believe thruster makes clamber too powerful and breaks maps which could make small maps difficult to design.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sprint breaks maps even more, this is a fact and a proven reason as to why every sprint game has bigger maps than the classics
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > debatable. sprint definitely adds its own layer of difficulty in designing maps, however classic halo maps with sprint doesnt change much compared to clamber and thruster when playing the pit. the pit isnt a small map so the smaller maps probably got more issues.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Not debatable, a time restricted limited boost in momentum in any direction while being able to shoot is vastly different from a locked animation focused in one direction without the player being able to do anything else
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > you are not talking about map design anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > either way, i can cancel sprint immediately and shoot. i can’t cancel thruster plus it stops me shooting for a second with the the way h5 works…
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Man, you need to read
> > > > > > > > > > > Sprint impacts map design, not debatable and easily proven by leagues of evidence. It also impacts weapon balance and the overall sandbox, not debatable.
> > > > > > > > > > > Being able to shoot out of sprint isn’t the issue, cease your hate -Yoink!- for thrust and actually think about how the game works. Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > “Thrust is less intrusive and was a positive ripple in the wave of trash that was H5 as it was limited and didn’t impact map design too much”
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > now youre back on the right track, but debatable. think about all the different ways thruster and clamber would change classic maps. you can basically thrust and clamber around corners which will make those maps feel a lot smaller when suddenly every area is a thrust and clamber away.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This leads me to the Mythic Arena playlist from H5. No sprint, nerfed thruster, no clamber, and well-designed maps imho. Not saying it’s perfect, but it was a fun playlist and an interesting H5 spin on the original Halo formula.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i think people will be surprised how well the new instant slide acts like a thruster. Fast change of direction is a great mechanic in halo as long as it doesnt work while jumping to break classic maps. thrusting in the air also made jumping in halo 5 completely overpowered. you could change your fall to dodge a grenade whereas in classic halo, a wrong jump will end your life.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > being able to activate thruster while taking damage was also bad as people could thrust behind cover just as you were about to kill them. as you can see, thruster needs a lot of the same balances as h5’s sprint in order to keep classic play intact. shooting someone should disable all fast mobility, unless its a pickup.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Did you try the thrust in the Mythic Arena playlist? It was much less powerful than the vanilla H5 thrust, and was much more useful for a quick change of direction and making unique jumps. Agree that the original H5 thrust is overpowering and can turn the tide of a battle with its single use.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yes , less powered thruster is much better but it still has the same problems i listed, but not as bad.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > making unique jumps, changes the chess like nature of halos gameplay into something more random and unpredictable. thruster would be fine as a powerup to fight for so that only 1 guy has unique jumps with limited use in a match.
> > > > >
> > > > > What’s wrong with player-bound RNG? in CE ev erything is on a timer and is set in stone but I can still move as randomly as I want, thruster is the same thing
> > > >
> > > > i
> > >
> > > Every single issue you bring up with thruster can be applied to sprint, and if you’re solution is to be knocked out of sprint whenever taking any form of damage then you might as well not include it.
> >
> > some of it can be applied to sprint. thruster could be disabled when shot. however, thruster still breaks map design far more than sprint and leads to generic maps to keep routes balanced or chaotic unpredictable classic maps with too many routes
>
> I mean, you’re wrong
>
> Sprint has a much bigger impact on map design because it can be used at all times for a speed boost, thrust is limited to a short momentum increase with a long cooldown.

shooting people out of sprint would easily balance that. we already cant activate sprint in battle unlike thruster.

thruster allows you to thrust mid air and change direction onto different parts of a map which is not possible with sprint.

there is one way to make thruster work with classic halo maps. Only make thruster work on ground and only when not taking damage. However, if sprint is going to be in the game, the new instant slide will act like that thruster.

Celestis · December 31, 2020, 9:54pm

> 2533274821339472;5128:
> I’m sick of arguing with celeste. my reply was about more than just celeste and i dont plan on engaging with that dude anymore.

Doesn’t look that way as you constantly keep replying to my posts…

Btw, you spelled my name wrong.

Celestis · December 31, 2020, 10:09pm

> 2614366390849210;5123:
> I wasn’t being antagonistic good sir. I was just pointing out a fun fact that (completely made up figure) 99.9% of the population doesn’t know, (edit) as well as pointing out the precedent that some degree of sprint has always been Halo since the very beginning.

It hasn’t.
12.5% higher movement speed in forward direction isn’t sprint.
It doesn’t make you lower your gun when you want to move at full speed.
It doesn’t change the gameplay at the push of a button.
Hell, it’s not even mapped to a button.
This is just a semantic diversion tactic, trying to trick people into accepting sprint by gaslighting them into thinking “it has always been there”.
I’ve seen the same thing before with people claiming that bloom had always been in Halo because the CE pistol had different spread in its alternate fire mode, which isn’t what “bloom” means.

WhoLikesChicken · January 2, 2021, 3:55am

> 2533274801176260;5157:
> > 2614366390849210;5123:
> > I wasn’t being antagonistic good sir. I was just pointing out a fun fact that (completely made up figure) 99.9% of the population doesn’t know, (edit) as well as pointing out the precedent that some degree of sprint has always been Halo since the very beginning.
>
> It hasn’t.
> 12.5% higher movement speed in forward direction isn’t sprint.
> It doesn’t make you lower your gun when you want to move at full speed.
> It doesn’t change the gameplay at the push of a button.
> Hell, it’s not even mapped to a button.
> This is just a semantic diversion tactic, trying to trick people into accepting sprint by gaslighting them into thinking “it has always been there”.
> I’ve seen the same thing before with people claiming that bloom had always been in Halo because the CE pistol had different spread in its alternate fire mode, which isn’t what “bloom” means.

It hasn’t.
12.5% higher movement speed in forward direction isn’t sprint.
-I guess it’s a jog. Chief must not have a great sense of urgency I suppose. Makes sense, I mean why would a bionic super soldier ever need to move faster than Kevin making a run to the copier?

It doesn’t make you lower your gun when you want to move at full speed.
-Ok…? It delays your aim to a target. Unless you regularly try to run directly at your enemy I suppose. And your definition of sprint didn’t exist in 2001, all mainstream games had sprint function differently than what we know today.

It doesn’t change the gameplay at the push of a button.

I always think this reasoning sounds so dumb. So we can’t add any feature that has a button push and does something besides grenade, shoot, or melee? That just sounds like crappy game design, and doesn’t provide any room for gameplay expansion.

Hell, it’s not even mapped to a button.
-90° straight up on the joystick. Not 91°, not 89° (I guess technically it depends on the sensitivity of the joystick sensors, but I think you get the point) . Sorry if you didn’t understand the clear instruction in the original fun fact…

This is just a semantic diversion tactic, trying to trick people into accepting sprint by gaslighting them into thinking “it has always been there”.

Nope, it’s a fun fact for the day . Since most people don’t even know CE has some kind of sprint. It’s actually vital to the best speed run times even . And now that you know, it’ll help you out a lot in CTF if you take advantage of it.

I’ve seen the same thing before with people claiming that bloom had always been in Halo because the CE pistol had different spread in its alternate fire mode, which isn’t what “bloom” means.

You’re correct, and I think bloom sucks. I personally think recoil is a better solution. Players have direct visual indication of where their next shot can land, and there is still an opportunity for devs to have something to tweak for balance adjustments besides damage.

Second fun fact, just because I know it will annoy you. Ground pound was in H2, it was just a super basic version of the concept.

Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist

QtoCool · January 2, 2021, 4:40am

> 2614366390849210;5158:
> > 2533274801176260;5157:
> > > 2614366390849210;5123:
> > > I wasn’t being antagonistic good sir. I was just pointing out a fun fact that (completely made up figure) 99.9% of the population doesn’t know, (edit) as well as pointing out the precedent that some degree of sprint has always been Halo since the very beginning.
> >
> > It hasn’t.
> > 12.5% higher movement speed in forward direction isn’t sprint.
> > It doesn’t make you lower your gun when you want to move at full speed.
> > It doesn’t change the gameplay at the push of a button.
> > Hell, it’s not even mapped to a button.
> > This is just a semantic diversion tactic, trying to trick people into accepting sprint by gaslighting them into thinking “it has always been there”.
> > I’ve seen the same thing before with people claiming that bloom had always been in Halo because the CE pistol had different spread in its alternate fire mode, which isn’t what “bloom” means.
>
> It hasn’t.
> 12.5% higher movement speed in forward direction isn’t sprint.
> -I guess it’s a jog. Chief must not have a great sense of urgency I suppose. Makes sense, I mean why would a bionic super soldier ever need to move faster than Kevin making a run to the copier?
>
> It doesn’t make you lower your gun when you want to move at full speed.
> -Ok…? It delays your aim to a target. Unless you regularly try to run directly at your enemy I suppose. And your definition of sprint didn’t exist in 2001, all mainstream games had sprint function differently than what we know today.
>
> It doesn’t change the gameplay at the push of a button.
> - I always think this reasoning sounds so dumb. So we can’t add any feature that has a button push and does something besides grenade, shoot, or melee? That just sounds like crappy game design, and doesn’t provide any room for gameplay expansion.
>
> Hell, it’s not even mapped to a button.
> -90° straight up on the joystick. Not 91°, not 89° (I guess technically it depends on the sensitivity of the joystick sensors, but I think you get the point) . Sorry if you didn’t understand the clear instruction in the original fun fact…
>
> This is just a semantic diversion tactic, trying to trick people into accepting sprint by gaslighting them into thinking “it has always been there”.
> - Nope, it’s a fun fact for the day . Since most people don’t even know CE has some kind of sprint. It’s actually vital to the best speed run times even . And now that you know, it’ll help you out a lot in CTF if you take advantage of it.
>
> I’ve seen the same thing before with people claiming that bloom had always been in Halo because the CE pistol had different spread in its alternate fire mode, which isn’t what “bloom” means.
> - You’re correct, and I think bloom sucks. I personally think recoil is a better solution. Players have direct visual indication of where their next shot can land, and there is still an opportunity for devs to have something to tweak for balance adjustments besides damage.
>
> Second fun fact, just because I know it will annoy you. Ground pound was in H2, it was just a super basic version of the concept.
>
> Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist

So your basically wanting halo to feel like every other game on the market because that’s exactly what your “solution” will do is software innovated and evolved doom with out changing its formula so why are you people so opposed to not having sprint?. And stop using lore as a basis for your argument it’s an unbearably bad argument.

QtoCool · January 2, 2021, 4:42am

> 2614366390849210;5158:
> > 2533274801176260;5157:
> > > 2614366390849210;5123:
> > > I wasn’t being antagonistic good sir. I was just pointing out a fun fact that (completely made up figure) 99.9% of the population doesn’t know, (edit) as well as pointing out the precedent that some degree of sprint has always been Halo since the very beginning.
> >
> > It hasn’t.
> > 12.5% higher movement speed in forward direction isn’t sprint.
> > It doesn’t make you lower your gun when you want to move at full speed.
> > It doesn’t change the gameplay at the push of a button.
> > Hell, it’s not even mapped to a button.
> > This is just a semantic diversion tactic, trying to trick people into accepting sprint by gaslighting them into thinking “it has always been there”.
> > I’ve seen the same thing before with people claiming that bloom had always been in Halo because the CE pistol had different spread in its alternate fire mode, which isn’t what “bloom” means.
>
> It hasn’t.
> 12.5% higher movement speed in forward direction isn’t sprint.
> -I guess it’s a jog. Chief must not have a great sense of urgency I suppose. Makes sense, I mean why would a bionic super soldier ever need to move faster than Kevin making a run to the copier?
>
> It doesn’t make you lower your gun when you want to move at full speed.
> -Ok…? It delays your aim to a target. Unless you regularly try to run directly at your enemy I suppose. And your definition of sprint didn’t exist in 2001, all mainstream games had sprint function differently than what we know today.
>
> It doesn’t change the gameplay at the push of a button.
> - I always think this reasoning sounds so dumb. So we can’t add any feature that has a button push and does something besides grenade, shoot, or melee? That just sounds like crappy game design, and doesn’t provide any room for gameplay expansion.
>
> Hell, it’s not even mapped to a button.
> -90° straight up on the joystick. Not 91°, not 89° (I guess technically it depends on the sensitivity of the joystick sensors, but I think you get the point) . Sorry if you didn’t understand the clear instruction in the original fun fact…
>
> This is just a semantic diversion tactic, trying to trick people into accepting sprint by gaslighting them into thinking “it has always been there”.
> - Nope, it’s a fun fact for the day . Since most people don’t even know CE has some kind of sprint. It’s actually vital to the best speed run times even . And now that you know, it’ll help you out a lot in CTF if you take advantage of it.
>
> I’ve seen the same thing before with people claiming that bloom had always been in Halo because the CE pistol had different spread in its alternate fire mode, which isn’t what “bloom” means.
> - You’re correct, and I think bloom sucks. I personally think recoil is a better solution. Players have direct visual indication of where their next shot can land, and there is still an opportunity for devs to have something to tweak for balance adjustments besides damage.
>
> Second fun fact, just because I know it will annoy you. Ground pound was in H2, it was just a super basic version of the concept.
>
> Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist

And at this point your being delusional because you have been beaten so badly in this debate. ground pound in halo 2? you have to be trolling lol.

TheCelticDragon · January 2, 2021, 7:59am

> 2614366390849210;5158:
> > 2533274801176260;5157:
> > > 2614366390849210;5123:
> > >
>
> It hasn’t.
> 12.5% higher movement speed in forward direction isn’t sprint.
> -I guess it’s a jog. Chief must not have a great sense of urgency I suppose. Makes sense, I mean why would a bionic super soldier ever need to move faster than Kevin making a run to the copier?
>
> It doesn’t make you lower your gun when you want to move at full speed.
> -Ok…? It delays your aim to a target. Unless you regularly try to run directly at your enemy I suppose. And your definition of sprint didn’t exist in 2001, all mainstream games had sprint function differently than what we know today.
>
> It doesn’t change the gameplay at the push of a button.
> - I always think this reasoning sounds so dumb. So we can’t add any feature that has a button push and does something besides grenade, shoot, or melee? That just sounds like crappy game design, and doesn’t provide any room for gameplay expansion.
>
> Hell, it’s not even mapped to a button.
> -90° straight up on the joystick. Not 91°, not 89° (I guess technically it depends on the sensitivity of the joystick sensors, but I think you get the point) . Sorry if you didn’t understand the clear instruction in the original fun fact…
>
> This is just a semantic diversion tactic, trying to trick people into accepting sprint by gaslighting them into thinking “it has always been there”.
> - Nope, it’s a fun fact for the day . Since most people don’t even know CE has some kind of sprint. It’s actually vital to the best speed run times even . And now that you know, it’ll help you out a lot in CTF if you take advantage of it.
>
> I’ve seen the same thing before with people claiming that bloom had always been in Halo because the CE pistol had different spread in its alternate fire mode, which isn’t what “bloom” means.
> - You’re correct, and I think bloom sucks. I personally think recoil is a better solution. Players have direct visual indication of where their next shot can land, and there is still an opportunity for devs to have something to tweak for balance adjustments besides damage.
>
> Second fun fact, just because I know it will annoy you. Ground pound was in H2, it was just a super basic version of the concept.
>
> Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist

Not to sound too antagonistic, but whatever direction Halo does go in, I feel it’s comments like this that make Halo deserve the poor quality it has found itself in. We’ve both posted for a long time, so I know you aren’t a troll or always like this, though the flippant attitude isn’t valuable for either side of the fence.

Most of your replies are of no real worth to the sprint discussion, though i found the reply to “it doesn’t change the gameplay at a push of a button” to be serious. The discussion is how much value an action gives, risk and reward. A punch can only damage at point blank range, 2 are required which isn’t quick, unless it is a backsmack. Grenades also require 2 to kill, unless a player has taken damage, then it’s 1. Limited drops, 2 on spawn, requires accuracy most of the time, has a limited range, can be dodged if seen, or reacted to due to timed explosion. Both melee and grenade are very limited in usage and don’t offer much reward. Lets look at gameplay expansion in Reach, jetpack was a broken mess when an on-spawn ability due to the characteristics it had “at the press of a button”, like sprint. When it was shifted to a pick-up it could be balanced appropriately for gameplay and it enriched the experience instead of being a generic, tedious cheese mechanic that warped the gameplay to play around the thorn it had created. Most of the pro-sprint side want an exploration of movement (the 25+ crowd likely played quake and UT), but not in the cod style (all power on spawn) it’s taken on. All sprint as a spawn trait decisions or suggestions have big flaws, and like thruster bend the game around the 1 mechanic, unlike melee, grenade or jetpack as a pick-up which all found a nice frequency and importance in the gameplay.