The return of classic movement mechanics?

[tsassi]

> 2533274821339472;4995:
> h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
>
> show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.

Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint. That’s the point.

Map size happens to be the only easily quantifiable statement we can make about map design. By all means, if you have a precise, unambiguous claim about map design, state it, go research it, and report back. “Take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover” is ambiguous nonsense that’s not actionable.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274799966722;4999:
> Can this thread die thank you the old ways of halo are gone the new way will ever be accepted so what will be the ever ending debate , oh yes let’s take a forum and bicker like entitled children.
> Make the game caterer to how ever it wants if your not happy then leave. If I was the take a shot in the dark how many people in this thread wish for the old style of halo a few hundreds. Hundreds dont make bank nor does it keep the lights on so because some Youtuber with less than a million is not the arbitrator of what is expectation from a wider consumer market. I find Halo Infinite development a problem of bad development no thanks to covid but a dependence of spoon feeding to a fanatic sub group, nostalgia pandering, fan over expectations and blind imagination.
> What was shown was very lackluster the latest books where bland the quality of content from YouTube to here is for a lack of better word is something I leave to your imagination.
> Whatever Halo become in the next few years will be great but I will not care so bring on the hate. 343 make an first person shooter that isn’t micro managed by the blind petty people how cant evolve to the times because of nostalgia. From halo CE to Halo 5 I played them all love them all.

atleast 343 employees probably get a good laugh out of this thread.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274825830455;5002:
> > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> >
> > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
>
> Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint. That’s the point.
>
> Map size happens to be the only easily quantifiable statement we can make about map design. By all means, if you have a precise, unambiguous claim about map design, state it, go research it, and report back. “Take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover” is ambiguous nonsense that’s not actionable.

the main reason is, h3 heretic is a horrible sweaty map where you are constantly spawned killed. That might well just be the logical reason why 343 dont make heretic sized maps because they are terrible.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274825830455;5002:
> > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> >
> > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
>
> Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint. That’s the point.
>
> Map size happens to be the only easily quantifiable statement we can make about map design. By all means, if you have a precise, unambiguous claim about map design, state it, go research it, and report back. “Take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover” is ambiguous nonsense that’s not actionable.

its actionable but will require a power point presentation or something. Even then, it would still be argued, unless we see an actual similar sized remake with changed cover to account for sprint. if we get some remakes in infinite then we will see

[VinucciVadam]

> 2533274821339472;5001:
> > 2533274925072192;4997:
> > > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > > > 2533274825830455;4990:
> > > > > 2533274821339472;4978:
> > > > > please no heretic vs truth comparisons
> > > >
> > > > Why not? Both seem pretty standard sized for their respective games. Both are different executions of the same map concept, so a sensible comparison can actually be made. You’re basically rejecting the most apples-to-apples comparison because it doesn’t fit your agenda.
> > > >
> > > > Look, the notion that maps in a game with sprint are designed with the expectation that players are going to sprint is not “a point people have conjured up in their mind”. It’s just a basic principle of level design that levels should be designed with the movement abilities of the players in mind. Pick your battles. Don’t try to deny basic truths.
> > >
> > > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> > >
> > > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
> >
> > At this point you are gonna refuse to see any reason to defy your cognitive dissonance I think. But sure, lets take similar sized maps from each game even though in reality when accounting for the change in movement speed Truth and Midship are comparable. Lets take something like Standoff from H3 and Truth from H5. I would say if you ignore sprint those maps are pretty similar in size. Now lets try and play H5 Truth without sprint on. It would be horrendous. Not just because of hitscan weapons, but because there is almost no cover in between carbine tower, red base, blue base, mid, and pink tower. There are open expanses. I suppose you have bubble but that again is a very wide stretch of cover. Now compare that to standoff in H3 (which is literally a BTB map). It had to be balanced for vehicles so yes there are sections on the far left and right of the map that are more open, however, from any position on the map one can easily get to cover through the very dense midsection of the map which has plenty of rocks, boulders, etc. The red and blue base also have very tight CQC combat that you could never see in H5. There is a lot of room for out-maneuvering enemies on that map. You have very little room for that in Truth on H5, and that isnt even taking into account vehicle routes.
>
> truth was designed to be no mans land in the middle. sandtrap was designed to push players to go to the center. sandtrap has no mans lands on the sides while truth is designed to be played on the sides. youre confusing different styles of maps. what you should compare is how each map uses close quarters combat and long range combat. compare the close quarter designs to close quarter designs and the long range designs to long range designs.

Except that Truth in H5 has no mans land depending on whether you’re sprinting or not. Why is this a hard concept to grasp? If I am running between carbine tower and red base its not a big deal, but if I am engaging in a gunfight in that area, its no mans land. I have 0 cover available to me. What are my options? Thrust back towards red base or thrust out into mid. Neither offers any strategic advantage. In short, I am going to just get laser beamed because most of the map is no mans land. In Heretic, it was small enough to not actually be no mans land. You could actually turn around and duck into cover. H5 combat is begrudgingly slow it can be painful. Which is why you should not play it like past Halo’s.

So like I said you are just gonna keep running in circles. Because the reality is there is never going to be a one to one map from the games because of sprint, so even though truth and heretic are the same style of map, you say that one is much bigger so its not comparable. Then, when I point out one that is comparable in size you say it isnt the same style. The reality is that this magical map that has the exact same style and size as an H3 map does not exist because of Sprint.

How does truth handle CQC? Well you are either out in the open in mid, out in the open in the bases, out in the open between the bases, or maybe you have a little more evasive movement around pink and carbine tower. What about Long range combat? Well you can laser each other from base to base. How does Standoff handle CQC? You are either within the bases where the size is small enough to give value to strafe and melee or you are in mid, where there is enough rock cover to allow for some unique outplaying. How does standoff handle Long range gunfights? from base to base you can BR each other but not very effectively. This gives value to taking the mid route on foot, or around the sides using a vehicle. Even in the “no man’s land” of standoff (aka vehicle routes) one can easily jump to mid while still shooting since your movement speed is much higher, and you dont have to really worry about being lazerbeamed from the bases.

H5 combat is not bad by any means but it is a far cry from what Halo should be.

[tsassi]

> 2533274821339472;5004:
> the main reason is, h3 heretic is a horrible sweaty map where you are constantly spawned killed. That might well just be the logical reason why 343 dont make heretic sized maps because they are terrible.

This is your personal opinion on Heretic, not a reason. Unless you can find an instance of 343i corroborating it, it’s irrelevant.

> 2533274821339472;5005:
> its actionable but will require a power point presentation or something. Even then, it would still be argued, unless we see an actual similar sized remake with changed cover to account for sprint. if we get some remakes in infinite then we will see

Look, you’re talking to a guy who spent a couple of months combing through archived copies of Bungie.net and wrote thirty pages on the population history of Halo just because no one could get their facts straight. “I can’t be bothered” just isn’t an excuse that’s going to work on me.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274825830455;5007:
> > 2533274821339472;5004:
> > the main reason is, h3 heretic is a horrible sweaty map where you are constantly spawned killed. That might well just be the logical reason why 343 dont make heretic sized maps because they are terrible.
>
> This is your personal opinion on Heretic, not a reason. Unless you can find an instance of 343i corroborating it, it’s irrelevant.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274821339472;5005:
> > its actionable but will require a power point presentation or something. Even then, it would still be argued, unless we see an actual similar sized remake with changed cover to account for sprint. if we get some remakes in infinite then we will see
>
> Look, you’re talking to a guy who spent a couple of months combing through archived copies of Bungie.net and wrote thirty pages on the population history of Halo just because no one could get their facts straight. “I can’t be bothered” just isn’t an excuse that’s going to work on me.

ok, then i’ll spend 11 months waiting for a halo infinite dev remake which i am confident will happen due to no thruster. i’m not gonna point to pit stop in halo 4 as that didnt even try to achieve any sense of balance so i’ll keep things fair.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274925072192;5006:
> > 2533274821339472;5001:
> > > 2533274925072192;4997:
> > > > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > > > > 2533274825830455;4990:
> > > > > > 2533274821339472;4978:
> > > > > > please no heretic vs truth comparisons
> > > > >
> > > > > Why not? Both seem pretty standard sized for their respective games. Both are different executions of the same map concept, so a sensible comparison can actually be made. You’re basically rejecting the most apples-to-apples comparison because it doesn’t fit your agenda.
> > > > >
> > > > > Look, the notion that maps in a game with sprint are designed with the expectation that players are going to sprint is not “a point people have conjured up in their mind”. It’s just a basic principle of level design that levels should be designed with the movement abilities of the players in mind. Pick your battles. Don’t try to deny basic truths.
> > > >
> > > > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> > > >
> > > > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
> > >
> > > At this point you are gonna refuse to see any reason to defy your cognitive dissonance I think. But sure, lets take similar sized maps from each game even though in reality when accounting for the change in movement speed Truth and Midship are comparable. Lets take something like Standoff from H3 and Truth from H5. I would say if you ignore sprint those maps are pretty similar in size. Now lets try and play H5 Truth without sprint on. It would be horrendous. Not just because of hitscan weapons, but because there is almost no cover in between carbine tower, red base, blue base, mid, and pink tower. There are open expanses. I suppose you have bubble but that again is a very wide stretch of cover. Now compare that to standoff in H3 (which is literally a BTB map). It had to be balanced for vehicles so yes there are sections on the far left and right of the map that are more open, however, from any position on the map one can easily get to cover through the very dense midsection of the map which has plenty of rocks, boulders, etc. The red and blue base also have very tight CQC combat that you could never see in H5. There is a lot of room for out-maneuvering enemies on that map. You have very little room for that in Truth on H5, and that isnt even taking into account vehicle routes.
> >
> > truth was designed to be no mans land in the middle. sandtrap was designed to push players to go to the center. sandtrap has no mans lands on the sides while truth is designed to be played on the sides. youre confusing different styles of maps. what you should compare is how each map uses close quarters combat and long range combat. compare the close quarter designs to close quarter designs and the long range designs to long range designs.
>
> Except that Truth in H5 has no mans land depending on whether you’re sprinting or not. Why is this a hard concept to grasp? If I am running between carbine tower and red base its not a big deal, but if I am engaging in a gunfight in that area, its no mans land. I have 0 cover available to me. What are my options? Thrust back towards red base or thrust out into mid. Neither offers any strategic advantage. In short, I am going to just get laser beamed because most of the map is no mans land. In Heretic, it was small enough to not actually be no mans land. You could actually turn around and duck into cover. H5 combat is begrudgingly slow it can be painful. Which is why you should not play it like past Halo’s.
>
> So like I said you are just gonna keep running in circles. Because the reality is there is never going to be a one to one map from the games because of sprint, so even though truth and heretic are the same style of map, you say that one is much bigger so its not comparable. Then, when I point out one that is comparable in size you say it isnt the same style. The reality is that this magical map that has the exact same style and size as an H3 map does not exist because of Sprint.
>
> How does truth handle CQC? Well you are either out in the open in mid, out in the open in the bases, out in the open between the bases, or maybe you have a little more evasive movement around pink and carbine tower. What about Long range combat? Well you can laser each other from base to base. How does Standoff handle CQC? You are either within the bases where the size is small enough to give value to strafe and melee or you are in mid, where there is enough rock cover to allow for some unique outplaying. How does standoff handle Long range gunfights? from base to base you can BR each other but not very effectively. This gives value to taking the mid route on foot, or around the sides using a vehicle. Even in the “no man’s land” of standoff (aka vehicle routes) one can easily jump to mid while still shooting since your movement speed is much higher, and you dont have to really worry about being lazerbeamed from the bases.
>
> H5 combat is not bad by any means but it is a far cry from what Halo should be.

when your playing on the sides on truth, you would be in similar amount of danger like when your in the center on standoff. combat is slow because people constantly jump thrust away from danger. if h5 does have less cover then thruster would be why but that doesnt solve anything because players hang near cover for escape.

I dont like halo 5. truth is garbage with or without sprint. Also youre overpraising heritic. that map is a constant death loop and i could consider that as worse than h5’s truth just for that reason

h5 does not need lazor weapons for sprint and thruster. they INCREASE bullet magnetism when players thrust. why do this if we already have reliable lazer weapons? 343 clearly just thought OP weapons at all times was the answer.

“Because the reality is there is never going to be a one to one map from the games because of sprint”

the reason h5 didnt get any remakes, is because jump+thrust breaks everything. i have a feeling infinite will remake one to one maps now that thruster is gone so that statement could bite you in the -Yoink-.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274825830455;5007:
> > 2533274821339472;5004:
> > the main reason is, h3 heretic is a horrible sweaty map where you are constantly spawned killed. That might well just be the logical reason why 343 dont make heretic sized maps because they are terrible.
>
> This is your personal opinion on Heretic, not a reason. Unless you can find an instance of 343i corroborating it, it’s irrelevant.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274821339472;5005:
> > its actionable but will require a power point presentation or something. Even then, it would still be argued, unless we see an actual similar sized remake with changed cover to account for sprint. if we get some remakes in infinite then we will see
>
> Look, you’re talking to a guy who spent a couple of months combing through archived copies of Bungie.net and wrote thirty pages on the population history of Halo just because no one could get their facts straight. “I can’t be bothered” just isn’t an excuse that’s going to work on me.

> 2533274825830455;5002:
> > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> >
> > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
>
> Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint. That’s the point.
>
> Map size happens to be the only easily quantifiable statement we can make about map design. By all means, if you have a precise, unambiguous claim about map design, state it, go research it, and report back. “Take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover” is ambiguous nonsense that’s not actionable.

“Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint.”

can 343 back that up? otherwise thats just your “opinion”.

[commando544]

> 2533274821339472;5010:
> > 2533274825830455;5007:
> > > 2533274821339472;5004:
> > > the main reason is, h3 heretic is a horrible sweaty map where you are constantly spawned killed. That might well just be the logical reason why 343 dont make heretic sized maps because they are terrible.
> >
> > This is your personal opinion on Heretic, not a reason. Unless you can find an instance of 343i corroborating it, it’s irrelevant.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274821339472;5005:
> > > its actionable but will require a power point presentation or something. Even then, it would still be argued, unless we see an actual similar sized remake with changed cover to account for sprint. if we get some remakes in infinite then we will see
> >
> > Look, you’re talking to a guy who spent a couple of months combing through archived copies of Bungie.net and wrote thirty pages on the population history of Halo just because no one could get their facts straight. “I can’t be bothered” just isn’t an excuse that’s going to work on me.
>
>
>
> > 2533274825830455;5002:
> > > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> > >
> > > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
> >
> > Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint. That’s the point.
> >
> > Map size happens to be the only easily quantifiable statement we can make about map design. By all means, if you have a precise, unambiguous claim about map design, state it, go research it, and report back. “Take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover” is ambiguous nonsense that’s not actionable.
>
> “Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint.”
>
> can 343 back that up? otherwise thats just your “opinion”.

343 doesn’t need to back that up, it’s just plain fact

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2535458188883243;5011:
> > 2533274821339472;5010:
> > > 2533274825830455;5007:
> > > > 2533274821339472;5004:
> > > > the main reason is, h3 heretic is a horrible sweaty map where you are constantly spawned killed. That might well just be the logical reason why 343 dont make heretic sized maps because they are terrible.
> > >
> > > This is your personal opinion on Heretic, not a reason. Unless you can find an instance of 343i corroborating it, it’s irrelevant.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274821339472;5005:
> > > > its actionable but will require a power point presentation or something. Even then, it would still be argued, unless we see an actual similar sized remake with changed cover to account for sprint. if we get some remakes in infinite then we will see
> > >
> > > Look, you’re talking to a guy who spent a couple of months combing through archived copies of Bungie.net and wrote thirty pages on the population history of Halo just because no one could get their facts straight. “I can’t be bothered” just isn’t an excuse that’s going to work on me.
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274825830455;5002:
> > > > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > > > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> > > >
> > > > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
> > >
> > > Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint. That’s the point.
> > >
> > > Map size happens to be the only easily quantifiable statement we can make about map design. By all means, if you have a precise, unambiguous claim about map design, state it, go research it, and report back. “Take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover” is ambiguous nonsense that’s not actionable.
> >
> > “Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint.”
> >
> > can 343 back that up? otherwise thats just your “opinion”.
>
> 343 doesn’t need to back that up, it’s just plain fact

its a fact that the sprint jumps were designed for sprint but what about the rest of the map using cover? why cant i play this proof game too?

[VinucciVadam]

> 2533274821339472;5009:
> > 2533274925072192;5006:
> > > 2533274821339472;5001:
> > > > 2533274925072192;4997:
> > > > > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > > > > > 2533274825830455;4990:
> > > > > > > 2533274821339472;4978:
> > > > > > > please no heretic vs truth comparisons
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why not? Both seem pretty standard sized for their respective games. Both are different executions of the same map concept, so a sensible comparison can actually be made. You’re basically rejecting the most apples-to-apples comparison because it doesn’t fit your agenda.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Look, the notion that maps in a game with sprint are designed with the expectation that players are going to sprint is not “a point people have conjured up in their mind”. It’s just a basic principle of level design that levels should be designed with the movement abilities of the players in mind. Pick your battles. Don’t try to deny basic truths.
> > > > >
> > > > > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> > > > >
> > > > > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
> > > >
> > > > At this point you are gonna refuse to see any reason to defy your cognitive dissonance I think. But sure, lets take similar sized maps from each game even though in reality when accounting for the change in movement speed Truth and Midship are comparable. Lets take something like Standoff from H3 and Truth from H5. I would say if you ignore sprint those maps are pretty similar in size. Now lets try and play H5 Truth without sprint on. It would be horrendous. Not just because of hitscan weapons, but because there is almost no cover in between carbine tower, red base, blue base, mid, and pink tower. There are open expanses. I suppose you have bubble but that again is a very wide stretch of cover. Now compare that to standoff in H3 (which is literally a BTB map). It had to be balanced for vehicles so yes there are sections on the far left and right of the map that are more open, however, from any position on the map one can easily get to cover through the very dense midsection of the map which has plenty of rocks, boulders, etc. The red and blue base also have very tight CQC combat that you could never see in H5. There is a lot of room for out-maneuvering enemies on that map. You have very little room for that in Truth on H5, and that isnt even taking into account vehicle routes.
> > >
> > > truth was designed to be no mans land in the middle. sandtrap was designed to push players to go to the center. sandtrap has no mans lands on the sides while truth is designed to be played on the sides. youre confusing different styles of maps. what you should compare is how each map uses close quarters combat and long range combat. compare the close quarter designs to close quarter designs and the long range designs to long range designs.
> >
> > Except that Truth in H5 has no mans land depending on whether you’re sprinting or not. Why is this a hard concept to grasp? If I am running between carbine tower and red base its not a big deal, but if I am engaging in a gunfight in that area, its no mans land. I have 0 cover available to me. What are my options? Thrust back towards red base or thrust out into mid. Neither offers any strategic advantage. In short, I am going to just get laser beamed because most of the map is no mans land. In Heretic, it was small enough to not actually be no mans land. You could actually turn around and duck into cover. H5 combat is begrudgingly slow it can be painful. Which is why you should not play it like past Halo’s.
> >
> > So like I said you are just gonna keep running in circles. Because the reality is there is never going to be a one to one map from the games because of sprint, so even though truth and heretic are the same style of map, you say that one is much bigger so its not comparable. Then, when I point out one that is comparable in size you say it isnt the same style. The reality is that this magical map that has the exact same style and size as an H3 map does not exist because of Sprint.
> >
> > How does truth handle CQC? Well you are either out in the open in mid, out in the open in the bases, out in the open between the bases, or maybe you have a little more evasive movement around pink and carbine tower. What about Long range combat? Well you can laser each other from base to base. How does Standoff handle CQC? You are either within the bases where the size is small enough to give value to strafe and melee or you are in mid, where there is enough rock cover to allow for some unique outplaying. How does standoff handle Long range gunfights? from base to base you can BR each other but not very effectively. This gives value to taking the mid route on foot, or around the sides using a vehicle. Even in the “no man’s land” of standoff (aka vehicle routes) one can easily jump to mid while still shooting since your movement speed is much higher, and you dont have to really worry about being lazerbeamed from the bases.
> >
> > H5 combat is not bad by any means but it is a far cry from what Halo should be.
>
> when your playing on the sides on truth, you would be in similar amount of danger like when your in the center on standoff. combat is slow because people constantly jump thrust away from danger. if h5 does have less cover then thruster would be why but that doesnt solve anything because players hang near cover for escape.
>
> I dont like halo 5. truth is garbage with or without sprint. Also youre overpraising heritic. that map is a constant death loop and i could consider that as worse than h5’s truth just for that reason
>
> h5 does not need lazor weapons for sprint and thruster. they INCREASE bullet magnetism when players thrust. why do this if we already have reliable lazer weapons? 343 clearly just thought OP weapons at all times was the answer.
>
> “Because the reality is there is never going to be a one to one map from the games because of sprint”
>
> the reason h5 didnt get any remakes, is because jump+thrust breaks everything. i have a feeling infinite will remake one to one maps now that thruster is gone so that statement could bite you in the -Yoink-.

I think you have this really weird desire to oversimplify how gameplay changes can impact maps. When did I ever even praise heretic? I am saying it has more cover than H5.

Its like you are grasping desperately at the thrust and bullet magnetism being the problems with H5. Those in reality are small problems. Look at H4 for how a simple sprint implementation stretches and changes maps.

You don’t like Halo 5? So which Halo game with sprint did you enjoy? Halo 4 or Halo Reach? Because both of those games saw similar map issues. Halo 5 is a pretty damn good modern shooter but its just not a halo game and thus doesn’t have the same kind of memorable maps design. I never said that Halo Infinite would have the same issues, but I am saying I am concerned it will based on that screenshot. As I said earlier, 343 is learning how to balance sprint, and I actually expected infinite to solve these issues. This will not be because there is no thruster, but because there is not a large gap between movement speed and sprint speed. It is really that simple.

You acknowledge that a thrust + jump breaks everything? Why is that though? Because it allows you to have a boost in jump distance compared to the standard jump distance. Hmm its almost like that is literally what happened in Halo Reach and H4 when they added Sprint + jumps. Denying the impact of a sprint mechanic on gameplay wont do anyone any good and is just naive.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274925072192;5013:
> > 2533274821339472;5009:
> > > 2533274925072192;5006:
> > > > 2533274821339472;5001:
> > > > > 2533274925072192;4997:
> > > > > > 2533274821339472;4995:
> > > > > > > 2533274825830455;4990:
> > > > > > > > 2533274821339472;4978:
> > > > > > > > please no heretic vs truth comparisons
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why not? Both seem pretty standard sized for their respective games. Both are different executions of the same map concept, so a sensible comparison can actually be made. You’re basically rejecting the most apples-to-apples comparison because it doesn’t fit your agenda.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Look, the notion that maps in a game with sprint are designed with the expectation that players are going to sprint is not “a point people have conjured up in their mind”. It’s just a basic principle of level design that levels should be designed with the movement abilities of the players in mind. Pick your battles. Don’t try to deny basic truths.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > h5 dev maps all have a standard map size. h3 maps vary and heretic is a really small map that requires lots of cover. it is far from a apples to apples comparison. a much fairer approach is to take 2 similar sized maps from each game and compare how they use cover.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > show me where maps have been adjusted for sprint besides sprint jumps. I dont see it.
> > > > >
> > > > > At this point you are gonna refuse to see any reason to defy your cognitive dissonance I think. But sure, lets take similar sized maps from each game even though in reality when accounting for the change in movement speed Truth and Midship are comparable. Lets take something like Standoff from H3 and Truth from H5. I would say if you ignore sprint those maps are pretty similar in size. Now lets try and play H5 Truth without sprint on. It would be horrendous. Not just because of hitscan weapons, but because there is almost no cover in between carbine tower, red base, blue base, mid, and pink tower. There are open expanses. I suppose you have bubble but that again is a very wide stretch of cover. Now compare that to standoff in H3 (which is literally a BTB map). It had to be balanced for vehicles so yes there are sections on the far left and right of the map that are more open, however, from any position on the map one can easily get to cover through the very dense midsection of the map which has plenty of rocks, boulders, etc. The red and blue base also have very tight CQC combat that you could never see in H5. There is a lot of room for out-maneuvering enemies on that map. You have very little room for that in Truth on H5, and that isnt even taking into account vehicle routes.
> > > >
> > > > truth was designed to be no mans land in the middle. sandtrap was designed to push players to go to the center. sandtrap has no mans lands on the sides while truth is designed to be played on the sides. youre confusing different styles of maps. what you should compare is how each map uses close quarters combat and long range combat. compare the close quarter designs to close quarter designs and the long range designs to long range designs.
> >
> > I dont like halo 5. truth is garbage with or without sprint. Also youre overpraising heritic. that map is a constant death loop and i could consider that as worse than h5’s truth just for that reason
> >
> > h5 does not need lazor weapons for sprint and thruster. they INCREASE bullet magnetism when players thrust. why do this if we already have reliable lazer weapons? 343 clearly just thought OP weapons at all times was the answer.
> >
> > “Because the reality is there is never going to be a one to one map from the games because of sprint”
> >
> > the reason h5 didnt get any remakes, is because jump+thrust breaks everything. i have a feeling infinite will remake one to one maps now that thruster is gone so that statement could bite you in the -Yoink-.
>
> I think you have this really weird desire to oversimplify how gameplay changes can impact maps. When did I ever even praise heretic? I am saying it has more cover than H5.
>
> Its like you are grasping desperately at the thrust and bullet magnetism being the problems with H5. Those in reality are small problems. Look at H4 for how a simple sprint implementation stretches and changes maps.
>
> You don’t like Halo 5? So which Halo game with sprint did you enjoy? Halo 4 or Halo Reach? Because both of those games saw similar map issues. Halo 5 is a pretty damn good modern shooter but its just not a halo game and thus doesn’t have the same kind of memorable maps design. I never said that Halo Infinite would have the same issues, but I am saying I am concerned it will based on that screenshot. As I said earlier, 343 is learning how to balance sprint, and I actually expected infinite to solve these issues. This will not be because there is no thruster, but because there is not a large gap between movement speed and sprint speed. It is really that simple.
>
> You acknowledge that a thrust + jump breaks everything? Why is that though? Because it allows you to have a boost in jump distance compared to the standard jump distance. Hmm its almost like that is literally what happened in Halo Reach and H4 when they added Sprint + jumps. Denying the impact of a sprint mechanic on gameplay wont do anyone any good and is just naive.

“343 is learning how to balance sprint, and I actually expected infinite to solve these issues. This will not be because there is no thruster, but because there is not a large gap between movement speed and sprint speed. It is really that simple.”

youre gonna have to explain what you mean by skill gap when simply reducing sprint. i find it ironic that youre saying i’m over simplifying things when you say slower sprint will make the biggest difference. do you not see thruster cancels the fights you complain about being too scarce? by simply removing the ability to escape from battle, the game becomes a 100 times better. team shooting becomes challenging because you can no longer cowardly thrust away firing cheap shots while your teammate finishes the kill. projectile bullets make teamwork more challenging too. thruster and lazar weapons are exactly why halo 5 is a sweaty team shooter on steroids compared to halo 3.

i dont like any halo game with sprint but sprint isnt the main reason why. reach ruined how shields work and people spawned with armor lock. 4 had instant respawns and loadouts. 5 has a horrid aiming system, lazar weapons and thruster.

halo 4 remakes are not stretched but both remakes and original maps are equally meh because of everything else in the core gameplay.

heres an interesting quote from a h5 forger:

"Thanks to forge, I have played plenty of small maps with sprint. They work just fine. Actually, they play better than large maps do with sprint in many cases, because the smaller the map is and the shorter the space between cover, the less people actually use sprint. Playing on those smaller maps, if you abuse the sprint button you’re just going to die repeatedly because you’re constantly caught with your gun down.

This is the same argument I’ve seen regarding the effectiveness of the DMR at long distances. It was frequently argued that maps had to be made larger to combat this. The opposite is true. The best way to reduce the effectiveness of a long range weapon is to reduce the number of long range battles. The best way to do that is to make shorter lines of sight, not longer ones. The best way to reduce the negative impacts of sprint on maps is to reduce the amount of dead space."

sprint+jump+thrust is much worse than reaches, 4’s sprint+jump.

[Wild_Vegetable]

> 2533274821339472;5014:
> heres an interesting quote from a h5 forger:
>
> "Thanks to forge, I have played plenty of small maps with sprint. They work just fine. Actually, they play better than large maps do with sprint in many cases, because the smaller the map is and the shorter the space between cover, the less people actually use sprint. Playing on those smaller maps, if you abuse the sprint button you’re just going to die repeatedly because you’re constantly caught with your gun down.

You do realize this is essentially saying “small maps play better because people use sprint less,” right?

And if you’re using sprint so infrequently, why have it? Everyone is just going to take that to the conclusion “remove sprint and you can create small maps that still play well, and large maps that doesn’t need as much dead space - win-win!”
That quote also says nothing about the whole jump thrust thing or whatever, so I’m assuming they are still doing that in the small map, where it would be broken?

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274833081329;5015:
> > 2533274821339472;5014:
> > heres an interesting quote from a h5 forger:
> >
> > "Thanks to forge, I have played plenty of small maps with sprint. They work just fine. Actually, they play better than large maps do with sprint in many cases, because the smaller the map is and the shorter the space between cover, the less people actually use sprint. Playing on those smaller maps, if you abuse the sprint button you’re just going to die repeatedly because you’re constantly caught with your gun down.
>
> You do realize this is essentially saying “small maps play better because people use sprint less,” right?
>
> And if you’re using sprint so infrequently, why have it? Everyone is just going to take that to the conclusion “remove sprint and you can create small maps that still play well, and large maps that doesn’t need as much dead space - win-win!”
> That quote also says nothing about the whole jump thrust thing or whatever, so I’m assuming they are still doing that in the small map, where it would be broken?

well, the forge maps would most likely design keeping in mind blocking off jumping to unintentional parts of the map. in a perfect world thruster shouldnt exist.

anyway i think small maps is referring to maps like pit stop(medium sized) and original halo 4 maps (large sized)which were much bigger. halo 4 didnt need bigger maps, it just needed a balanced slower sprint like 5. h4 mcc cant make their sprint slower because then their already designed large maps will feel even worse.

I imagine in infinite people will be using sprint+slide as the start of their attack regularly like in the demo that uses slide instantly. People wont be sprinting around the map aimlessly, now that they have no safety net that the thruster provides, plus sprint will be slower than 5. every move could mean life or death, the way halo should be. sprint sliding should add a lot more risk vs reward by reading your radar and reacting faster than the enemy. it should feel like, who can draw their gun faster to get the advantage for the start of a fight. halo 3 always had that aspect but sprint slide will make it much more effective especially since enemies cant easily get away as you disable their sprint slide function by simply dealing them damage. what would make halo even more unforgiving would be nerfing how fast you jog backwards. You now have to make bigger choices. do you stay and fight or turn and jog away to cover. you cant do both when walking backwards is slower. this makes every move you decide, vital. moving is now more important than aiming.

[Wild_Vegetable]

> 2533274821339472;5016:
> > 2533274833081329;5015:
> > > 2533274821339472;5014:
> > > heres an interesting quote from a h5 forger:
> > >
> > > "Thanks to forge, I have played plenty of small maps with sprint. They work just fine. Actually, they play better than large maps do with sprint in many cases, because the smaller the map is and the shorter the space between cover, the less people actually use sprint. Playing on those smaller maps, if you abuse the sprint button you’re just going to die repeatedly because you’re constantly caught with your gun down.
> >
> > You do realize this is essentially saying “small maps play better because people use sprint less,” right?
> >
> > And if you’re using sprint so infrequently, why have it? Everyone is just going to take that to the conclusion “remove sprint and you can create small maps that still play well, and large maps that doesn’t need as much dead space - win-win!”
> > That quote also says nothing about the whole jump thrust thing or whatever, so I’m assuming they are still doing that in the small map, where it would be broken?
>
> well, the forge maps would most likely design keeping in mind blocking off jumping to unintentional parts of the map. in a perfect world thruster shouldnt exist.
>
> anyway i think small maps is referring to maps like pit stop(medium sized) and original halo 4 maps (large sized)which were much bigger. halo 4 didnt need bigger maps, it just needed a balanced slower sprint like 5. h4 mcc cant make their sprint slower because then their already designed large maps will feel even worse.
>
> I imagine in infinite people will be using sprint+slide as the start of their attack regularly like in the demo that uses slide instantly. People wont be sprinting around the map aimlessly, now that they have no safety net that the thruster provides, plus sprint will be slower than 5. every move could mean life or death, the way halo should be. sprint sliding should add a lot more risk vs reward by reading your radar and reacting faster than the enemy. it should feel like, who can draw their gun faster to get the advantage for the start of a fight. halo 3 always had that aspect but sprint slide will make it much more effective especially since enemies cant easily get away as you disable their sprint slide function by simply dealing them damage. what would make halo even more unforgiving would be nerfing how fast you jog backwards. You now have to make bigger choices. do you stay and fight or turn and jog away to cover. you cant do both when walking backwards is slower. this makes every move you decide, vital. moving is now more important than aiming.

That didn’t answer my question though.

If you’re now using sprint for a shorter duration, less often, and for a smaller boost in speed, why are you keeping it? The entirety of your last paragraph is all about slide being good, and you’re only using sprint to get to slide so slide can do its job. That’s like saying “the sprint+spartan charge combo deals damage to the opponent.”

Also why would you need to nerf movement speed even more when you just said you’ve eliminated their escape options by removing sprint?

> 2533274821339472;5016:
> this makes every move you decide, vital. moving is now more important than aiming.

People told me almost this exact phrase towards Halo 5, almost exclusively because of sprint and thruster.

Technically Halo Reach and 4 as well because the Jetpack exists.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274833081329;5017:
> > 2533274821339472;5016:
> > > 2533274833081329;5015:
> > > > 2533274821339472;5014:
> > > > heres an interesting quote from a h5 forger:
> > > >
> > > > "Thanks to forge, I have played plenty of small maps with sprint. They work just fine. Actually, they play better than large maps do with sprint in many cases, because the smaller the map is and the shorter the space between cover, the less people actually use sprint. Playing on those smaller maps, if you abuse the sprint button you’re just going to die repeatedly because you’re constantly caught with your gun down.
> > >
> > > You do realize this is essentially saying “small maps play better because people use sprint less,” right?
> > >
> > > And if you’re using sprint so infrequently, why have it? Everyone is just going to take that to the conclusion “remove sprint and you can create small maps that still play well, and large maps that doesn’t need as much dead space - win-win!”
> > > That quote also says nothing about the whole jump thrust thing or whatever, so I’m assuming they are still doing that in the small map, where it would be broken?
> >
> > well, the forge maps would most likely design keeping in mind blocking off jumping to unintentional parts of the map. in a perfect world thruster shouldnt exist.
> >
> > anyway i think small maps is referring to maps like pit stop(medium sized) and original halo 4 maps (large sized)which were much bigger. halo 4 didnt need bigger maps, it just needed a balanced slower sprint like 5. h4 mcc cant make their sprint slower because then their already designed large maps will feel even worse.
> >
> > I imagine in infinite people will be using sprint+slide as the start of their attack regularly like in the demo that uses slide instantly. People wont be sprinting around the map aimlessly, now that they have no safety net that the thruster provides, plus sprint will be slower than 5. every move could mean life or death, the way halo should be. sprint sliding should add a lot more risk vs reward by reading your radar and reacting faster than the enemy. it should feel like, who can draw their gun faster to get the advantage for the start of a fight. halo 3 always had that aspect but sprint slide will make it much more effective especially since enemies cant easily get away as you disable their sprint slide function by simply dealing them damage. what would make halo even more unforgiving would be nerfing how fast you jog backwards. You now have to make bigger choices. do you stay and fight or turn and jog away to cover. you cant do both when walking backwards is slower. this makes every move you decide, vital. moving is now more important than aiming.
>
> That didn’t answer my question though.
>
> If you’re now using sprint for a shorter duration, less often, and for a smaller boost in speed, why are you keeping it? The entirety of your last paragraph is all about slide being good, and you’re only using sprint to get to slide so slide can do its job. That’s like saying “the sprint+spartan charge combo deals damage to the opponent.”
>
> Also why would you need to nerf movement speed even more when you just said you’ve eliminated their escape options by removing sprint?
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274821339472;5016:
> > this makes every move you decide, vital. moving is now more important than aiming.
>
> People told me almost this exact phrase towards Halo 5, almost exclusively because of sprint and thruster.
>
> Technically Halo Reach and 4 as well because the Jetpack exists.

because youre still using sprint to gain an advantage in map position and it has the potential to raise your effectiveness by quite a bit if you manage to use it better than then the enemy. it adds more risk vs reward i was talking about. sprint could get you killed rushing into dangerous areas but it could also win you the match if used well. bms has risk vs reward but sprint takes it up a notch. you have a choice of playing safer or riskier.

nerfing movement even more in that situation with walking backwards makes team shooting even more challenging. for example, an enemy losing a battle now has to decide, does he throw away his life and weaken you for his teammate or turn and run(potentially die). you can no longer do both effectively at the same time which makes teamshooting challenging where as in halo 5 team shooting is easy since you can do things like thrust out of danger from a mistake you made, still return fire as you run away and then have your teammate save your life.

in a 1v1, thruster, jetpack etc can also be vital in a fight. The problem is how they affect team based play. theyre basically get out of jail cards so the enemy can disappear from danger and then a different enemy hops in the fight and kills you. Ive never found any game like that fair or fun. i like that tactic in a game but it has to work well with everything else.

[Wild_Vegetable]

> 2533274821339472;5018:
> it adds more risk vs reward i was talking about. sprint could get you killed rushing into dangerous areas but it could also win you the match if used well. bms has risk vs reward but sprint takes it up a notch. you have a choice of playing safer or riskier.

I hear “risk/reward” really often, and honestly I never see it create such a system and rarely “add more” of it. Sprint itself isn’t a choice to decide on, it’s a took you use once you already made your choice.

If your decision is “get to X location”, you’re going to get there at your fastest speed because going slower adds more risk (getting in a fight before you have your advantage), and sprint happens to be your fastest speed. If you choose to attack/defend a location, you’d use the fastest speed available to you to do such, which is your base movement speed.

Even if the situation was all reward and no risk, you’d still probably sprint there by virtue of getting the reward as fast as possible.

> 2533274821339472;5018:
> for example, an enemy losing a battle now has to decide, does he throw away his life and weaken you for his teammate or turn and run(potentially die).

With only these two solutions, the obvious answer is going to be the first one. The time it takes you to turn around and run away is enough for almost 2 shots from the Pistol or BR, making a disadvantageous battle nearly lost already.

But the ideal answer would be neither, it would be to out-strafe your opponent (hence making the opponent miss) while hitting your own shots (thus pressuring the opponent). Then with both of you at low health, it becomes a real choice to stick the battle out or use the environment to your advantage.

> 2533274821339472;5018:
> where as in halo 5 team shooting is easy since you can do things like thrust out of danger from a mistake you made, still return fire as you run away and then have your teammate save your life.

I mean that is what I expect from a team based game that is supposedly using sprint effectively to gain map advantage. If the attackers can’t sprint (because they’re shooting), then the defenders can sprint in, turning the attacker into the victim. Thrust doesn’t necessarially have to be involved here.

And even then, that doesn’t stop thrust from still being “moving is more important than aiming” - if anything it represents that the most of any ability in Halo 5.

> 2533274821339472;5018:
> i like that tactic in a game but it has to work well with everything else.

Unfortunately that’s exactly how people feel towards sprint. It only works well when used in button combos, or only on “small” maps that apparently aren’t small but actually “medium” maps, and everything else is putting yourself in a disadvantage to try and gain the same advantage you used to have before its implementation.

[tsassi]

> 2533274821339472;5010:
> “Truth is based on Heretic. You can ask yourself: why is Heretic small, but its Halo 5 remake medium sized? Why does Halo 5 have no small maps? The map size is one of the adjustments for sprint.”
>
> can 343 back that up? otherwise thats just your “opinion”.

What? That map size if one of the adjustments for sprint? Here is a quote from an interview with the lead multiplayer level designer of Halo 4:

> Similarly, Halo 4’s designers keep a watchful eye on distance. “We definitely have standards for the size than something can be and the time it takes from one corner of a map to the other, or one objective sight to the other,” says Pearson. “It’s to make sure we’re tuning the experience to keep the time-to-death down, or making sure that your time-to-engagement is enough to give you a breather between dying, but not so long that you’re hunting through the map and not finding people.” Again, game mechanics have a direct bearing. In Halo 3, sprinting was impossible. In Halo: Reach, sprinting was a selectable armor ability. In Halo 4, everyone’s at it, and the maps have grown to compensate.

Yes, 343i does in fact understand level design.

[Ryan_lfc_92]

> 2533274833081329;5019:
> > 2533274821339472;5018:
> > it adds more risk vs reward i was talking about. sprint could get you killed rushing into dangerous areas but it could also win you the match if used well. bms has risk vs reward but sprint takes it up a notch. you have a choice of playing safer or riskier.
>
> I hear “risk/reward” really often, and honestly I never see it create such a system and rarely “add more” of it. Sprint itself isn’t a choice to decide on, it’s a took you use once you already made your choice.
>
> If your decision is “get to X location”, you’re going to get there at your fastest speed because going slower adds more risk (getting in a fight before you have your advantage), and sprint happens to be your fastest speed. If you choose to attack/defend a location, you’d use the fastest speed available to you to do such, which is your base movement speed.
>
> Even if the situation was all reward and no risk, you’d still probably sprint there by virtue of getting the reward as fast as possible.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274821339472;5018:
> > for example, an enemy losing a battle now has to decide, does he throw away his life and weaken you for his teammate or turn and run(potentially die).
>
> With only these two solutions, the obvious answer is going to be the first one. The time it takes you to turn around and run away is enough for almost 2 shots from the Pistol or BR, making a disadvantageous battle nearly lost already.
>
> But the ideal answer would be neither, it would be to out-strafe your opponent (hence making the opponent miss) while hitting your own shots (thus pressuring the opponent). Then with both of you at low health, it becomes a real choice to stick the battle out or use the environment to your advantage.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274821339472;5018:
> > where as in halo 5 team shooting is easy since you can do things like thrust out of danger from a mistake you made, still return fire as you run away and then have your teammate save your life.
>
> I mean that is what I expect from a team based game that is supposedly using sprint effectively to gain map advantage. If the attackers can’t sprint (because they’re shooting), then the defenders can sprint in, turning the attacker into the victim. Thrust doesn’t necessarially have to be involved here.
>
> And even then, that doesn’t stop thrust from still being “moving is more important than aiming” - if anything it represents that the most of any ability in Halo 5.
>
>
>
>
> > 2533274821339472;5018:
> > i like that tactic in a game but it has to work well with everything else.
>
> Unfortunately that’s exactly how people feel towards sprint. It only works well when used in button combos, or only on “small” maps that apparently aren’t small but actually “medium” maps, and everything else is putting yourself in a disadvantage to try and gain the same advantage you used to have before its implementation.

youre gonna have to play infinite to understand the effects of a balanced sprint/slide with no thruster.