The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> 2533274919593162;4812:
> Control. can be viewed as two things. one the ability to do something; the ability to achieve something consistently. I’m talking about the later…
> Being able to consistently achieve crouch. run and sprint. Is what i’m referring to control NOT ability to access some useless speed in-between inconsistently.

Why would you want to consistently access the same speeds? Isn’t it advantageous to use different speeds as it makes you more unpredictable?
Sarcasm aside, you’re acting as if the stick would just randomly shake and wobble unless you move it to the maximum displacement. You might not be able to hit 3.628m/s to the decimal point every single time, but you certainly can consistently hit a certain percentage (say, (50±5)%) of max movement speed by memorizing where the stick needs to be.

> 2533274919593162;4812:
> Like i said earlier and agreed upon in other posts. Consistency through streamlining available speeds is superior than having rarely used or unused options.

You’re contradicting yourself.

  1. Having the speeds being more easily accessted through the sole use of a stick is more streamlined that stick+button.
  2. All sprint (or any change in movement speed for that matter) does is shift which ones are used. You don’t get “one more consistently used speed”, you get one speed that is useless outside of combat and one that cannot be accessed within combat. By your very own nomenclature: BMS is “rarely used or unused” out of combat and sprint speed is “unused” within combat (because it literally can’t).
    As has already been explained countless times: No player will ever access a suboptimal movement speed just for -Yoink- n giggles. Crouch wasn’t used because it was slower, it was used despite it being slower.

> 2533274919593162;4812:
> Hell if they offered you the ability to toggle stutter step, crouch. run, and sprint at a consistent speeds vs giving you only the joysticks ability to vary your speed it would give you an advantage. The person with the streamlined functions could preform these exact movements consistently 100% without any effort.

They already do.
It’s called “joystick”.
Besides, you still haven’t made even the slightest effort to explain why moving at suboptimal speeds gives you an advantage. Your entire argument is based on an empty premise.

> 2533274919593162;4812:
> Allowing for easy consistent access leads to higher use percentage. Which would increase randomness/ entropy of players.

It doesn’t. As has already been explained, entropy/randomness only depends on the maximum possible speed, not how it is achieved or how many other different slower speeds exist in the game.
Halo wouldn’t be any less or more random if crouch were removed.

> 2533274919593162;4812:
> In a earlier post someone claimed that it was impossible to prove that players don’t use the variation of speeds often and i beg to differ there are plenty of UX case studies proving the claim that if you make something more available with clear use cases its used more.

If you have a stick-shift car, you can use any gear to go at any speed that the car is capable of. That doesn’t change the fact that there is an optimal gear for each situation that all drivers will use.
Also, citation needed.

> 2533274919593162;4812:
> This is funny cause I literally said covering long distances there is a disadvantage. And then you just repeat yourself

I obviously have to, because you continue repeating false statements.

> 2533274919593162;4812:
> Yes. in a situation where you need to move from cover to cover it is restrictive. However in the case i mentioned it is a benefit because it gives you options to move faster or slower than anticipated.

You still had this option if sprint was taken out of the game and BMS raised to former sprint speed. Extending the stick to variable positions already “gives you options to move faster or slower than anticipated”.

> 2533274919593162;4812:
> I love when people try and use things like this as a reason for something to be bad. There are game types similar to this. And it works great. Hell an entire game is built on a concept similar to this. its called CS:GO have you heard of it.
> You normally kill all opposing players but at anytime they can plant a bomb and end the game. Or how about neutral flag or many many other games and game types. LOL.

I think this is the most stupid rebuttal I have heard in a long time. (I would have said “this year” if there hadn’t been this guy in the Gen2-armor discussion.)
Adding a random game element that allows any player to win regardless of his previous game performance is not the same thing as one team achieving its goal that is specifically tied to a certain location and ingame object in an objective-themed title/gamemode.
Like, not even close.

> 2533274919593162;4812:
> Because of that comment this is the last time i’m answering you. I end it here.

Maybe you should, because it seems your “arguments” become increasingly embarassing…

4823

> 2533274825044752;4814:
> The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal.

I’m a bit skeptical about whether most sprint fans see it that way. Because it probably took five or six years after the introduction of sprint in Reach for anyone to even hint at that idea. Not to mention that the suggestion of removing the limitations on sprint (inability to shoot, strafe, etc.) usually get met with resistance. Then, of course, there are literally people who say some variation of “I don’t want to be slow”.

I’m receptive to the idea that speed variation is something that subconsciously makes sprinting satisfying, but I’m not convinced most sprint fans would agree that this is the primary value of sprint. I definitely wish it was that simple, because we could have a proper discussion about how this preference could be reconciled with the preferences of classic movement fans. Because if it turned out that it was in fact not the animation that sprint fans desired, there would surely exist a non-sprint compromise.

> 2533274825044752;4814:
> At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences.

It’s all about the perspective. You see it as the “decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences”. Someone else will see it as following 2013 trends for convincing a publisher.

Because really, it’s not that simple. Yes, 343i is a business. But the idea that businesses make decisions that will give them the most profit is an oversimplification. For one, because even in the abstract, a business isn’t so informed that they could actually make such decisions with certainty. The reality is that businesses operate on pretty limited information. In case of 343i, they were operating on the information of what other games at the time the development of Halo 5 started were doing, and what had and hadn’t worked for Halo in the past. And that’s exactly why I mentioned 2013 trends, because the games released in that time period would’ve been the information 343i was working with. But just to emphasize how limited that information was: in 2013 there was no battle royale, no hero shooters, game streaming was barely starting to become a thing.

What makes the most profit is unknowable. But trying out new ideas is extremely risky, because almost all new ideas don’t turn out to work. That is why the studio working on a multi-billion dollar franchise defaults on not what will make the most profit (unknowable), but something they believe at least probably won’t flop. Making a triple-A game isn’t about “most players will love this”, but about “well, most players probably won’t be scared away by this”.

But the other thing is that businesses aren’t some abstract entities making 100% rational data driven decisions. They’re made of people with their own views and preferences. And how businesses are structured means that their action will be heavily skewed by few individuals. Not to mention, in a creative work, these individuals actually do have goals other than making the most profit. So, at the level of micromanaging individual mechanics of a given game, it’s a mixture of what the individuals making the game want, balanced with what they believe they need to do advance their careers, and what they can get away with.

It’s obvious that 343i believed that Spartan Abilities would appeal to a wide audience, and in particular that sprint was something players expected, and the pros outweighed the cons. But one shouldn’t mistake this belief for a fact.

And just to be transparent, I have my own beliefs about that (which are almost certainly much more nuanced than you think they are), but I’m not mistaking my own beliefs for a fact either. Which is why I always find it kind of tiresome when people bring popularity into the conversation about movement mechanics. For me it’s just something we have so little information on that anyone can express the information in a way that it supports their own narrative, and everybody does.

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> 2533274919593162;4821:
> > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> >
> > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> >
> > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> >
> > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
>
> This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.

Who cares about simulating a real life person, go play ARMA for that
and you have vastly more variable movement without sprint as you have a whole left sticks worth of flexibility rather than a single button
The point is that Halo has a defined style of arena gameplay and every attempt at adding more gimmicks hasn’t worked ( Reach didn’t work and neither did H5 ) so why don’t we just stop trying to make Halo worse by changing what has always worked

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> 2535458188883243;4824:
> > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > >
> > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > >
> > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > >
> > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> >
> > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
>
> Who cares about simulating a real life person, go play ARMA for that
> and you have vastly more variable movement without sprint as you have a whole left sticks worth of flexibility rather than a single button
> The point is that Halo has a defined style of arena gameplay and every attempt at adding more gimmicks hasn’t worked ( Reach didn’t work and neither did H5 ) so why don’t we just stop trying to make Halo worse by changing what has always worked

if the left stick gives variable movement options
then left stick+stick click adds MORE options to movement

sprint CAN work in halo, it just needs retooling to fit the gameplay
I see in the trailer that 343 tones down the sprint speed, leaves the reticle visible and decreases time to raise weapon; which look like good changes

and yes I know Halo has a ‘defined’ style of gameplay
but the last time it was top dog was 13 years ago for a few months until modern warfare ate its lunch

so if halo wants to stay relevant then its combat needs to… evolve

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> 2533274825782531;4825:
> > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > >
> > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > >
> > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > >
> > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > >
> > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
> >
> > Who cares about simulating a real life person, go play ARMA for that
> > and you have vastly more variable movement without sprint as you have a whole left sticks worth of flexibility rather than a single button
> > The point is that Halo has a defined style of arena gameplay and every attempt at adding more gimmicks hasn’t worked ( Reach didn’t work and neither did H5 ) so why don’t we just stop trying to make Halo worse by changing what has always worked
>
> if the left stick gives variable movement options
> then left stick+stick click adds MORE options to movement
>
> sprint CAN work in halo, it just needs retooling to fit the gameplay
> I see in the trailer that 343 tones down the sprint speed, leaves the reticle visible and decreases time to raise weapon; which look like good changes
>
> and yes I know Halo has a ‘defined’ style of gameplay
> but the last time it was top dog was 13 years ago for a few months until modern warfare ate its lunch
>
> so if halo wants to stay relevant then its combat needs to… evolve

Want to clear some things up.
Sprint restricts player movement by forcing them to go faster in one direction. Your argument would hold more weight if you could sprint backward, sideways, or in any other direction. As is, you can only Sprint forward, restricting your freedom of movement to a single direction until you cancel the Sprint animation or slowly turn to either side whilst Sprinting. Those are the reasons that Sprint is more limiting than providing the freedom that pro-Sprint players want.

Sprint can work, but the easiest solution is to just up Base Movement Speed to Halo 5’s Sprint speed (which is admittedly fast) to give you that freedom of movement you want. You then lower weapon models so that they’re closer to the bottom of the screen and significantly smaller whilst increasing FOV. This helps in creating the perception that you have increased speed, and it’s something that DOOM 2016 uses to expert effect to make the game feel fast. This also allows the player to move at maximum speed and not sacrifice their combat capability.

Halo 3 didn’t get its “lunch eaten” by Call of Duty 4. Halo 3 maintained the top position on the Xbox Live Player Numbers for 2 years post-launch and was only dethroned by Modern Warfare 2. That said, it maintained a position in the Top 10 for 5 years post-launch, and survived both Reach and Halo 4 coming out during its life cycle. Halo Reach and Halo 4 both died quickly after launch. On Halo 5’s fifth anniversary, it isn’t even in the Top 20 most played games on Xbox One. Fallout 76 actually has more people playing the game right now than there are people playing Halo 5. It’s obvious that the player base for this so-called modernized Halo doesn’t exist, and if they do exist, they’re not exactly loyal to the Halo brand the same way that Halo 3’s fans were.

How is implementing a mechanic that’s been in Video Games since 1993, with DOOM 1 having the first instance of Sprint in FPS gaming, “evolution”? How is homogenizing Halo alongside other games “evolving”? I don’t think it’s unfair to say that 343’s insistence on chasing trends is why Halo 5 has fewer players than either the MCC or Fallout 76. Why on earth would I stick with Halo 5 if I can get the same experience from the most recent Call of Duty game? Halo has lost its uniqueness in the industry and has become just another bland military FPS, this time with a science fiction painting.

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> 2533275031935123;4826:
> > 2533274825782531;4825:
> > > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > > >
> > > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > > >
> > > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > > >
> > > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
> > >
> > > Who cares about simulating a real life person, go play ARMA for that
> > > and you have vastly more variable movement without sprint as you have a whole left sticks worth of flexibility rather than a single button
> > > The point is that Halo has a defined style of arena gameplay and every attempt at adding more gimmicks hasn’t worked ( Reach didn’t work and neither did H5 ) so why don’t we just stop trying to make Halo worse by changing what has always worked
> >
> > if the left stick gives variable movement options
> > then left stick+stick click adds MORE options to movement
> >
> > sprint CAN work in halo, it just needs retooling to fit the gameplay
> > I see in the trailer that 343 tones down the sprint speed, leaves the reticle visible and decreases time to raise weapon; which look like good changes
> >
> > and yes I know Halo has a ‘defined’ style of gameplay
> > but the last time it was top dog was 13 years ago for a few months until modern warfare ate its lunch
> >
> > so if halo wants to stay relevant then its combat needs to… evolve
>
> Want to clear some things up.
> Sprint restricts player movement by forcing them to go faster in one direction. Your argument would hold more weight if you could sprint backward, sideways, or in any other direction. As is, you can only Sprint forward, restricting your freedom of movement to a single direction until you cancel the Sprint animation or slowly turn to either side whilst Sprinting. Those are the reasons that Sprint is more limiting than providing the freedom that pro-Sprint players want.
>
> Sprint can work, but the easiest solution is to just up Base Movement Speed to Halo 5’s Sprint speed (which is admittedly fast) to give you that freedom of movement you want. You then lower weapon models so that they’re closer to the bottom of the screen and significantly smaller whilst increasing FOV. This helps in creating the perception that you have increased speed, and it’s something that DOOM 2016 uses to expert effect to make the game feel fast. This also allows the player to move at maximum speed and not sacrifice their combat capability.
>
> Halo 3 didn’t get its “lunch eaten” by Call of Duty 4. Halo 3 maintained the top position on the Xbox Live Player Numbers for 2 years post-launch and was only dethroned by Modern Warfare 2. That said, it maintained a position in the Top 10 for 5 years post-launch, and survived both Reach and Halo 4 coming out during its life cycle. Halo Reach and Halo 4 both died quickly after launch. On Halo 5’s fifth anniversary, it isn’t even in the Top 20 most played games on Xbox One. Fallout 76 actually has more people playing the game right now than there are people playing Halo 5. It’s obvious that the player base for this so-called modernized Halo doesn’t exist, and if they do exist, they’re not exactly loyal to the Halo brand the same way that Halo 3’s fans were.
>
> How is implementing a mechanic that’s been in Video Games since 1993, with DOOM 1 having the first instance of Sprint in FPS gaming, “evolution”? How is homogenizing Halo alongside other games “evolving”? I don’t think it’s unfair to say that 343’s insistence on chasing trends is why Halo 5 has fewer players than either the MCC or Fallout 76. Why on earth would I stick with Halo 5 if I can get the same experience from the most recent Call of Duty game? Halo has lost its uniqueness in the industry and has become just another bland military FPS, this time with a science fiction painting.

if sprint’s penalties are that off-putting for you then just don’t use it so you can wreck players who sacrifice their own combat abilities
this game’s still a shooter at its core so the best marksman should come out on top

and yeah ok halo 3 was top dog on xbl until mw2 came out but mw1 was top 3 on xbl in that same timeframe
and if you combine xbl, psn and pc player counts then modern warfare easily crushes halo

and judging by those same xbo metrics, the mcc has a lower concurrent playcount than fallout 76 as well, where are those loyal halo fans at?
yet I’m seeing every shooter in the top 20 has a sprint mechanic except for overwatch which has some characters with sprint or a type of movement boost

and halo’s always been chasing trends, it started out as a quake/unreal tournament clone with a 2 weapon limit and dedicated actions for grenades and melee

if you don’t see what sets halo apart from other shooters then go play calladoody with its pop n’ stop gameplay and dumb equipment like c4, claymores, concussion grenades and throwing axes

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> > 2533275031935123;4826:
> > > 2533274825782531;4825:
> > > > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > > > >
> > > > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
> > > >
> > > > Who cares about simulating a real life person, go play ARMA for that
> > > > and you have vastly more variable movement without sprint as you have a whole left sticks worth of flexibility rather than a single button
> > > > The point is that Halo has a defined style of arena gameplay and every attempt at adding more gimmicks hasn’t worked ( Reach didn’t work and neither did H5 ) so why don’t we just stop trying to make Halo worse by changing what has always worked
> > >
> > > snip
> >
> > snip
>
> if sprint’s penalties are that off-putting for you then just don’t use it so you can wreck players who sacrifice their own combat abilities
> this game’s still a shooter at its core so the best marksman should come out on top
>
> and yeah ok halo 3 was top dog on xbl until mw2 came out but mw1 was top 3 on xbl in that same timeframe
> and if you combine xbl, psn and pc player counts then modern warfare easily crushes halo
>
> and judging by those same xbo metrics, the mcc has a lower concurrent playcount than fallout 76 as well, where are those loyal halo fans at?
> yet I’m seeing every shooter in the top 20 has a sprint mechanic except for overwatch which has some characters with sprint or a type of movement boost
>
> and halo’s always been chasing trends, it started out as a quake/unreal tournament clone with a 2 weapon limit and dedicated actions for grenades and melee
>
> if you don’t see what sets halo apart from other shooters then go play calladoody with its pop n’ stop gameplay and dumb equipment like c4, claymores, concussion grenades and throwing axes

But the map design is such that if you don’t use it, you are heavily penalized for doing so. Right, but the game has systems in play that make it so getting around is more difficult without using Sprint. Sprint sacrifices your combat capability. So if you round a corner while sprinting and the enemy gets the first shots off on you, then you get smacked. Hard

And? Halo 3 still held the top position on Xbox Live. What relevance does Call of Duty on PSN and PC have to Halo 3 which released exclusively for the 360 at the time? Of course, the total player count would be larger for Call of Duty 4, Halo 3 was only on the Xbox 360. PlayStation players and PC players didn’t even have the option to try Halo 3 because it wasn’t on PC. That entire section of your comment is wholly irrelevant to the discussion. What matters, is where players were going on the Xbox 360, not any other system that Halo 3 did not release on.

Because Halo MCC also released in a downright broken state and was left like that for years post-launch. It’s burned a lot of bridges with classic fans and even new fans get put off by lingering technical issues with the game.
Just because all the lemmings are jumping off a bridge, doesn’t mean you have to go too. Different games have different styles of gameplay.

Not entirely. Quake/Unreal didn’t have a two-weapon limit, and the two-weapon limit was highly controversial for an Arena FPS in the style of Quake at the time. People did not like that Halo was going for a two-weapon limit. Besides that, Halo was still a unique product in relation to that of Quake and Unreal even though it borrowed some of its DNA, because of aspects like the two-weapon limit and the integration of vehicles into multiplayer gameplay. Lifting mechanics wholesale from Call of Duty Advanced Warfare to put into Halo 5 makes that game homogenous to Call of Duty Advanced Warfare and other military shooters released at the time.

But Halo has moved in the direction of its gameplay being like Call of Duty games released in the era of 2015 (Halo 5’s release date). Halo 5 became almost homogenous to Call of Duty, the only thing really separating them was a longer TTK and a science fiction coating. Everything that 343 has done to Halo, has been to bring it closer to its competition rather than create meaningful points of difference and reasons as to why I should go pick up Halo over the most recent Call of Duty. Halo’s long-term playerbase is all but dead as a result.

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> 2533274825782531;4827:
> if sprint’s penalties are that off-putting for you then just don’t use it so you can wreck players who sacrifice their own combat abilities
> this game’s still a shooter at its core so the best marksman should come out on top

Instead of going on this parade, which several others have done, and been told otherwise plenty of times already.
How about providing some examples of these new movement options sprint provide? Because there was a severe lack of them in your initial post, and there still is a significant lack of them now. By going the “don’t use it then” path you’re just derailing the entire thing and fail to defend your initial statement.

> 2533274825782531;4827:
> yet I’m seeing every shooter in the top 20 has a sprint mechanic except for overwatch which has some characters with sprint or a type of movement boost

And you think they’re in the top 20 because they have sprint?

> 2533274825782531;4827:
> and halo’s always been chasing trends, it started out as a quake/unreal tournament clone with a 2 weapon limit and dedicated actions for grenades and melee

Oh, and you know, Vehicle gameplay, regenerating health, lower tier precision weapon having headshot capability, reloading.

Halo CE sure took inspiration from plenty of games of that age, but it managed to differentiate itself enough to be different. Which brings me to the next point.

> 2533274825782531;4827:
> if you don’t see what sets halo apart from other shooters then go play calladoody with its pop n’ stop gameplay and dumb equipment like c4, claymores, concussion grenades and throwing axes

How has Halo 4 faired?
Halo did set itself apart from other shooters, and it managed to maintain a quality other mimicers couldn’t. Henche why many shooters in the Halo era took a lot of pages from the Halo book.
Issue now is that i343 hasn’t really managed to set itself apart, and, it has been of lower quality.
Halo 4’s additions and changes can find equals or close to equals in CoD, and then I mean everything. Flinch, Custom loadouts, grenade indicators and so forth.
Resembling your “calladoody” stuff.
Halo 5 doesn’t know what it wants to be.
Campaign is what it is, Arena suffers because of Warzone, and Warzone is far far from its full potential. Gameplay is what it is, and having played a couple of other games pre-dating it with Advanced Movement, the gameplay is not that special.

4830

> 2533274825782531;4825:
> > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > >
> > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > >
> > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > >
> > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > >
> > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
> >
> > Who cares about simulating a real life person, go play ARMA for that
> > and you have vastly more variable movement without sprint as you have a whole left sticks worth of flexibility rather than a single button
> > The point is that Halo has a defined style of arena gameplay and every attempt at adding more gimmicks hasn’t worked ( Reach didn’t work and neither did H5 ) so why don’t we just stop trying to make Halo worse by changing what has always worked
>
> if the left stick gives variable movement options
> then left stick+stick click adds MORE options to movement
>
> sprint CAN work in halo, it just needs retooling to fit the gameplay
> I see in the trailer that 343 tones down the sprint speed, leaves the reticle visible and decreases time to raise weapon; which look like good changes
>
> and yes I know Halo has a ‘defined’ style of gameplay
> but the last time it was top dog was 13 years ago for a few months until modern warfare ate its lunch
>
> so if halo wants to stay relevant then its combat needs to… evolve

Evolution is good, but Halo has tried sprint and has grown less popular because of it. There are many other ways to innovate, move fast, and evolve then copying the current trends.

4831

> 2533274825830455;4823:
> > 2533274825044752;4814:
> >
>
>
>
> > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences.
>
> It’s all about the perspective. You see it as the “decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences”. Someone else will see it as following 2013 trends for convincing a publisher.

I believe I’m speaking much more generally on this topic than you are. I certainly never meant to imply I have a bunch of facts supporting my post and I don’t expect anyone in this thread to have factual evidence of the reasons behind 343’s decision.

I read your post, I get what you are saying, and I disagree with most of it. Luckily, it’s a very low stakes debate neither of us truly know what’s up. You may be right.

Just wanted to point out the quote above. “Convincing a publisher” of what exactly? And whose job is it to convince them? GENERALLY a dev has to convince a publisher that they can create a game fun enough a lot of people will want to play it and it’ll sell like gangbusters. Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s going to be quite a challenge to convince a publisher that ignoring popular gaming trends within the industry and turning the clock back to 2008 is going to drive sales through the roof. Seems to me it’s much more likely that they’d make the “decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences.” Again, not saying it’s impossible, but in the absence of any insider information I’m just going to stick with the whole Occam’s Razor thing. And for the record, I haven’t been following things too closely, I may very well have missed some info that could completely change my opinion which would mean that I am speaking out of turn. Haven’t been around in a while and I’m checking in for any new info.

> For one, because even in the abstract, a business isn’t so informed that they could actually make such decisions with certainty.

Well, yeah, not sure where I implied that but it was not my intention.

> The reality is that businesses operate on pretty limited information. In case of 343i, they were operating on the information of what other games at the time the development of Halo 5 started were doing, and what had and hadn’t worked for Halo in the past.

Of course they’re going to look at current market trends, they’d be fools not too. But you make it sound like they just stopped there. They also had playtesting, focus groups, etc… There’s all those videos of 343 working with all those Halo pros to update the competitive experience… Just seems pretty glib to say they looked around at all the games of 2013 and stopped there.

My point is, I think it’s safe to assume they they gathered as much information as they could (or as much as budget would allow) to make an informed decision of what they could do to move as many units as possible. Whether or not it was the right call is your choice to make, but it seems pretty obvious why the call was made. (Again, if 343 has made some comment that contradicts this, I haven’t read it, please share.)

4832

> 2533274866906624;4830:
> > 2533274825782531;4825:
> > > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > > >
> > > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > > >
> > > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > > >
> > > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
>
> Evolution is good, but Halo has tried sprint and has grown less popular because of it. There are many other ways to innovate, move fast, and evolve then copying the current trends.

Lol. Correlation=/=causation. There are countless things about Halo that have changed over the years but your saying it’s not as popular as it once was all because of sprint. It could be any combination of factors, or none of them–Halo is a very old game, the longer it’s around the harder it is to stay relevant. You can’t lay it all at the feet of sprint.

4833

> 2533274825044752;4832:
> > 2533274866906624;4830:
> > > 2533274825782531;4825:
> > > > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > > > >
> > > > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
>
> Lol. Correlation=/=causation. There are countless things about Halo that have changed over the years but your saying it’s not as popular as it once was all because of sprint. It could be any combination of factors, or none of them–Halo is a very old game, the longer it’s around the harder it is to stay relevant. You can’t lay it all at the feet of sprint.

You are correct, however Reach did not get too much wrong. Grey maps / lack of maps, bloom, AAs, lack of ranked were the big criticisms. What can be argued is that in the past 10 years sprint has very easily been the most complained about feature in Halo, not just in this forum but in reddit, twitter, other Halo forums, youtube comments, passing comments by some youtubers, pro players and twitch personalities.

Halo didn’t sink because of 1 issue, however it has been the biggest gameplay issue it has faced. Poor launches and bad campaigns is most likely the biggest problem overall.

In regards to the competition what do all games that have universal sprint (aka not soldier 76) have in common? Either
A: quick kill times and a run n gun style - CoD, titanfall, battlefield etc
B: a 1 life only mode - gears, R6, BR games
Halo is neither, the only other game that doesn’t fall into those categories is Destiny which has a trash multiplayer and is offset by supers and a multitude of power weapons and armour effects, more akin to what we had in H4 (and scrapped).

Going the CSGO / Valorant route of having a button to slow down would be more appropriate for a game like Halo.

I keep hearing Halo needs to evolve and i’ve made the same argument every single time. Aside from sprint, a mechanic which entered Halo prior to 343 jumping on board what have they evolved? The sandbox has just added more junk, very few weapons or items which functionally add a new dimension to the game, just clone weapons with slightly different stats. The maps have become more simple and less vertical, the gametypes have shrunk, the vehicular combat has worsened since Reach. What has evolved_?_If we upped the FOV, raised the BMS and made halo movement very clean and fluid instead of so stop/start and janky it would be a massive step towards evolution, not chasing the gameplay style of a game released in 2007 (MW1) and variations of that game. We the classic crowd made large noises about a spectator mode, in-game tournament mode, return of clans/groups etc things that have shaped the experience of games that have succeeded in the 2010s, we did that during H3 and Reach, it fell on deaf ears and now look at all the big games and their focus?

Look at all other big games, their evolution doesn’t come in the form of pulling the rug from the fundamental gameplay, it has come by adding more user-oriented features which support the base game or adding alternate modes of play. In that department Halo has regressed since H3 / Reach.

4834

> 2533274836395701;4833:
> > 2533274825044752;4832:
> > > 2533274866906624;4830:
> > > > 2533274825782531;4825:
> > > > > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > > > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
> >
> > Lol. Correlation=/=causation. There are countless things about Halo that have changed over the years but your saying it’s not as popular as it once was all because of sprint. It could be any combination of factors, or none of them–Halo is a very old game, the longer it’s around the harder it is to stay relevant. You can’t lay it all at the feet of sprint.
>
> -snip-

This is the best counterpoint I’ve heard on this topic. I may not agree with it, but it’s rational and makes sense. Like, I disagree that Halo would be top of the heap if it were more in line with with gameplay from from H3 and earlier (and for the record, I didn’t like sprint in Halo until H5) but you do a great job of expressing why this topic is so uniquely divisive to the Halo community.

I like what you have to say about all the other problems Halo has developed since it’s glory days. Too many people wanna say that Halo isn’t king of the hill and it’s all sprint’s fault, blah, blah, blah. But we can’t overlook all the missteps made by the current leadership (sorry 343, not trying to be a jerk but you’ve really stepped in it time and time again). However, I think 343 nailed MP in H5 (groundpound and shoulderbash excluded). It still felt like Halo to me (ymmv) and brought in people looking for something more current. Of course some people are going to feel alienated, but there’s going to be casualties no matter which path they choose.

I’m just hoping this is the game that has BOTH a good campaign and multiplier. 343’s last two games were either/or.

4835

> 2533274825044752;4834:
> > 2533274836395701;4833:
> > > 2533274825044752;4832:
> > > > 2533274866906624;4830:
> > > > > 2533274825782531;4825:
> > > > > > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > > > > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > > > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > > > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > > > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.
> > >
> > > Lol. Correlation=/=causation. There are countless things about Halo that have changed over the years but your saying it’s not as popular as it once was all because of sprint. It could be any combination of factors, or none of them–Halo is a very old game, the longer it’s around the harder it is to stay relevant. You can’t lay it all at the feet of sprint.
> >
> > -snip-
>
> This is the best counterpoint I’ve heard on this topic. I may not agree with it, but it’s rational and makes sense. Like, I disagree that Halo would be top of the heap if it were more in line with with gameplay from from H3 and earlier (and for the record, I didn’t like sprint in Halo until H5) but you do a great job of expressing why this topic is so uniquely divisive to the Halo community.
>
> I like what you have to say about all the other problems Halo has developed since it’s glory days. Too many people wanna say that Halo isn’t king of the hill and it’s all sprint’s fault, blah, blah, blah. But we can’t overlook all the missteps made by the current leadership (sorry 343, not trying to be a jerk but you’ve really stepped in it time and time again). However, I think 343 nailed MP in H5 (groundpound and shoulderbash excluded). It still felt like Halo to me (ymmv) and brought in people looking for something more current. Of course some people are going to feel alienated, but there’s going to be casualties no matter which path they choose.
>
> I’m just hoping this is the game that has BOTH a good campaign and multiplier. 343’s last two games were either/or.

I would debate that last point, H4’s story was good not the campaign.
H5 was a decent shooter but a pisspoor Halo game that wasted 3 years of my life in anger

4836

> 2533274825782531;4827:
> yet I’m seeing every shooter in the top 20 has a sprint mechanic except for overwatch which has some characters with sprint or a type of movement boost

He says in an era where Rainbow Six Siege is extremely popular, and you aren’t allowed to freely jump - a mechanic that’s even more basic than sprint.

4837

> 2533274825044752;4834:
> > 2533274836395701;4833:
> > > 2533274825044752;4832:
> > > > 2533274866906624;4830:
> > > > > 2533274825782531;4825:
> > > > > > 2535458188883243;4824:
> > > > > > > 2533274919593162;4821:
> > > > > > > > 2533274825044752;4814:
> > > > > > > > Just want to throw in my 2 cents:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The argument that maps are expanded to accommodate sprint, and therefore, don’t get you across the map any quicker misses the point. For most players, the value of sprint isn’t quicker traversal, but having variable speeds at one’s disposal. But even this is secondary to the fact that sprint is just more satisfying to the majority of fps players.
> > > > > > > > And (this is my personal opinion) super fast base speeds with no weapon lowering isn’t much fun.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At the end of the day 343 is a business, not our friends. They’ll make the most profit by appealing to a broader consensus of what gamers want while trying to walk the fine line of retaining that Halo-feel. Nothing wrong with debating whether or not they succeed in doing so, and no doubt that is a purely subjective matter, but I think it’s easy to understand the decision to update these game mechanics for modern audiences. I myself never cared for updated movement mechanics until Halo 5 (if they get rid of ground pound and shoulder bash it would be much better).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I still dip into MCC from time to time when I need my nostalgia fix, though. Very thankful for MCC.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This was always my point Variable movement is the WAY TO GO. Whether its sprint or something else don’t think it matters. The only reason why some people might say Sprint might be best option is because it gives a sense of give and take for more speed, and a lot of people want more immersion and the way to do this is to simulate the RL functions of an actual person ie sprinting. But a lot of frustration would be handled with just having a button change the speed of the character whether it’s to make it faster or slower.

While spicy made the point of everyone having sprint and no-one having sprint not being much different in how the game plays i disagree on that one. Simply put to participate in the combat of sprint Halo you need to use the slow speed. Aside from flanking which is a far smaller portion of how sprint is utilised, sprint favours the player escaping. No matter the move speed if it is uniform then the level of disengage would be far less, other games combat this by fast kill times or a heavy penalty (1 life only).

This is the argument of the compromise, from what i’ve witnessed in the forums the desire to have multiple modes of speed as the crux of the argument is quite niche, in comparison to it being sluggish, like Halo 3 with low FOV, slowish strafe accel, bad netcode and spread BR. H3 was a slow game. The base argument of pro classic is to have a uniform move speed and to create creative ways to engage (hence why grenade launcher from Reach, jetpack as pick-up or concussion jumps get praised) and to de-emphasise the level of disengage that has been brought to the table. For the game to always be in ‘engage’ mode rather stuck in an animation, a stop/start downtime that only serves to make the game play far more cat and mouse.

Halo has shields, longer kill times, 2 weapon limit, objective modes and compact maps, we could have a play style better suited to squeeze out fun gameplay than lifting the run’n’gun blueprint and placing it over the features that aren’t going to change.

Those who simply want the game to be quicker can have that without the need of a sprint mechanic, the newer case of multiple modes of movement really are at a crossroads with the classic pov. In an ideal circumstance a wider sandbox not filled with clones that offer more aggressive, skillful and creative ways to move, pick people off or even disengage on maps that are more complex (asymmetric) and vertical would be ideal. Sprint doesn’t dash this but acts counter-intuitively against it, it is a press of a button and covers a lot of distance, those who run know they don’t want to shoot, those who shoot are ousted by those who run.

Of the h5 mechanics thrust, slide and hover could work well, same if ground pound was simply a fast fall button for variability and not damage potential. None of these mechanics are major disengage tools and can just help to vary engagements. same why i praise jetpack and evade as map pick-ups in Reach but loathed them as starting abilities, too much reward with no risk, no limitations and too available. It warped the game around them rather than added to the game. ZBNS played far better by comparison, just the Reach DMR became a laser, scope range was too long.

I don’t think Halo would be top dog instantly if it just reverted, however i do think that if the base game was coherent and didn’t need an overhaul or a majorly divided community it would be the start of building it back to glory. Contrary to some stats mentioned earlier, Halo Reach was in the top 5 xbl for roughly 18 months, i don’t think either H4 or H5 even lasted 6, i’ll have to check. I believe Halo has 5 major issues since 343 taken the reins.

It can’t deliver a base game that doesn’t divide the community
it can’t launch a game that isn’t broken for 6+ months
most non-additions are worse or very different than before (UI, soundFX, armours, medals, lighting, AI, vehicle control, texture design, animations, artstyle changes)
A lack of clarity for fixes or direction, which most other big devs do better
weak single player experience

343 has a lot to clean up, my view is that sprint is the biggest culprit for the first of the 5 points mentioned, it won’t be what launches Halo back into popularity, but something which will swing it back in the right direction, not a certainty but a belief. Like star wars i don’t think a re-hash is what is wanted but something that fits the style and personality of the series, a dislike of the new movies (343s efforts) but a want of what we got out of the games or comics (the desired outcome). Something that doesn’t try to contest or alter what’s been established but something that expands upon or brings new light to.

I don’t expect or believe Halo will cater to me, i’d just really love to love Halo again, but I just don’t.

edit: just to add i think it was the reach behind the scenes or H3. One of the devs said it’s all about the dance, 2 men enter and one man leaves. It’s overly simple but a game that focuses on the quality and complexity of its engagements rather than a disengage heavy experience, something it has skirted around, would make for a better experience.

Also sorry for the wall of text, a good chunk isn’t directly addressing you, i tend to speak into the void rather than directly, bad habit, most times i’m not conversing so i just give my 2c.

4838

> 2533274825044752;4831:
> “Convincing a publisher” of what exactly? And whose job is it to convince them? GENERALLY a dev has to convince a publisher that they can create a game fun enough a lot of people will want to play it and it’ll sell like gangbusters.

That’s one way to phrase it, although I’d argue that the developer doesn’t need to convince that the game will “sell like gangbusters”, because I’m sure publisher generally aren’t expecting huge returns on their investment.

Anyway, the key word here is “convince”. Conviction doesn’t have to be well informed.

> 2533274825044752;4831:
> Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s going to be quite a challenge to convince a publisher that ignoring popular gaming trends within the industry and turning the clock back to 2008 is going to drive sales through the roof.

You know, no one has said anything about “turning the clock back to 2008”. This “classic fans just want Halo 3” fiction needs to die. We’re not talking about making a halo 3 copy. We’re also not talking about “driv[ing] sales through the roof”, because that’s not realistic under any circumstances.

Anyway, yes, convincing a publisher of ignoring trends is difficult. That was kind of my point about businesses operating on limited information. That’s why we have everybody jumping in the battle royale bandwagon. That doesn’t mean it’s going to work out for everyone. Following trends doesn’t automatically guarantee success. One can even make the argument that following trends impedes success, because everybody’s trying to compete for the same niche. Success stories rarely begin with “So, we did exactly what everybody else was doing…”.

> 2533274825044752;4831:
> My point is, I think it’s safe to assume they they gathered as much information as they could (or as much as budget would allow) to make an informed decision of what they could do to move as many units as possible.

Of course they did. But any realistic amount of information is going to leave you with a huge uncertainty. Again, 343i may have made Halo 5 under the belief that it was what the “modern audience” wants to play. It wasn’t certain, and given what we know today, whether Halo 5 was the right thing for the “modern audience” is debatable.

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> 2533274825044752;4831:
> Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s going to be quite a challenge to convince a publisher that ignoring popular gaming trends within the industry and turning the clock back to 2008 is going to drive sales through the roof.

This is generally the kind of line that gets me to believe that people are purposely being disingenuous.

Unless Halo 5 is so shallow that the only difference between it and a game like Halo 3 is the existence of sprint and some other ability, then there must be more to it to make a game “modern.”

Especially when we’re currently in timeline where what we’ve seen of the next Halo game is 343 removing some of those very mechanics that people claimed were modern in the first place. For all what people tell me that Halo has “evolved”, people sure aren’t despising Halo Infinite for turning the clock back to 2008 and regressing back to Halo 3.

The only difference between removing something like Ground Pound and removing something like sprint is that people don’t have an almost fanatical infatuation over Ground Pound.

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The one thing I can say I like about Halo Infinite’s sprint is how it seems slower than the last 3 games. Maybe people are finally going to realize there’s no real point in having it.

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> 2535470151368935;4840:
> The one thing I can say I like about Halo Infinite’s sprint is how it seems slower than the last 3 games. Maybe people are finally going to realize there’s no real point in having it.

As long as it doesn’t result in upscaled maps like in Halo 5, but honestly I would rather it wasn’t present at all. I don’t use sprint, so I’m actually at a disadvantage when crossing the maps…and let’s not forget places that could normally be reached with a jump being elevated to force the use of clamber…