The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
4782

> The only hope sprint haters have is a spin off.

And that spin off will garner wildly better results lol.

You call us sprint haters when we pull completely valid reasons for it’s removal while you offer slim excuses to keep it.
Why does Halo need sprint, why has every Halo game with sprint been less popular than those without? why does the competitive community always disable or nerf sprint? Why does Halo need to mimic every other shooter? Why can’t Halo be like Doom and return to it’s roots?
answer these questions and provide an actual defense for the mechanic, stop attacking player skill or dancing around the subject.
Lastly, why defend a mechanic that brings more harm than good? you can clearly see that it has more negatives than positives so why bother?

4783

> 2533274919593162;4781:
> > 2535450211205501;4779:
> > Guys and girls what would you do or how would you feel if the master chief die in halo infinite?
>
> I would be happy To be honest. make for a good story and opens up the idea of a game with spartans being of our making and no longer will I have to play as someone else I could play as myself.

Yeah actually be honest it would be a great story and a great storys end.

4784

> 2535458188883243;4782:
> > The only hope sprint haters have is a spin off.
>
> And that spin off will garner wildly better results lol.
>
> You call us sprint haters when we pull completely valid reasons for it’s removal while you offer slim excuses to keep it.
> Why does Halo need sprint, why has every Halo game with sprint been less popular than those without? why does the competitive community always disable or nerf sprint? Why does Halo need to mimic every other shooter? Why can’t Halo be like Doom and return to it’s roots?
> answer these questions and provide an actual defense for the mechanic, stop attacking player skill or dancing around the subject.
> Lastly, why defend a mechanic that brings more harm than good? you can clearly see that it has more negatives than positives so why bother?

Lol :joy:

4785

> 2535458188883243;4782:
> > The only hope sprint haters have is a spin off.
>
> And that spin off will garner wildly better results lol.
>
> You call us sprint haters when we pull completely valid reasons for it’s removal while you offer slim excuses to keep it.
> Why does Halo need sprint, why has every Halo game with sprint been less popular than those without? why does the competitive community always disable or nerf sprint? Why does Halo need to mimic every other shooter? Why can’t Halo be like Doom and return to it’s roots?
> answer these questions and provide an actual defense for the mechanic, stop attacking player skill or dancing around the subject.
> Lastly, why defend a mechanic that brings more harm than good? you can clearly see that it has more negatives than positives so why bother?

Personally I think Halos lack of sales has several issues that don’t necessarily have anything to do with sprint.

  1. I think they did a poor job with the semi pro scene and tourneys.
  2. They did a poor job with the release of the game.
  3. They did a poor job with the development of the game (bugs, etc…).
  4. The time it came out.
  5. They changed too much too fast.
  6. The community is very stubborn.
4786

> 2535458188883243;4782:
> > The only hope sprint haters have is a spin off.
>
> And that spin off will garner wildly better results lol.
>
> You call us sprint haters when we pull completely valid reasons for it’s removal while you offer slim excuses to keep it.
> Why does Halo need sprint, why has every Halo game with sprint been less popular than those without? why does the competitive community always disable or nerf sprint? Why does Halo need to mimic every other shooter? Why can’t Halo be like Doom and return to it’s roots?
> answer these questions and provide an actual defense for the mechanic, stop attacking player skill or dancing around the subject.
> Lastly, why defend a mechanic that brings more harm than good? you can clearly see that it has more negatives than positives so why bother?

LMAO. I would feel like somethings missing but i’d might still play it. Depends on how much time I have and if I’m still stuck in my house lol.

4787

I just hope that for infinite have more maps where the power ups/weapons aren’t close to power positions and are in places where you have to give positions up for whatever. I think it would help with moving the game around. Could be wrong but i don’t know.

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> > > 2533274919593162;4769:
> > > but It’s in halo it won’t ever leave I suggest you try and learn how to implement it within your game play to the best of your ability.
> >
> > I have been told something along these lines, at some point, about more or less every mechanic in Halo that has since then been removed. That’s some food for thought. Oh, I’ve also been told sprint doesn’t need to be nerfed, twice. Coincidentally, I have also seen sprint get nerfed, twice.
> >
> > So, forgive my skepticism, but you guys don’t have the best track record at predicting the future of Halo.
>
> That’s a good point. But i can say For sure that Halo infinite is gonna be the halo for 10 years. And it has sprint. So with that being said there is 10 yrs with sprint minimum. The only hope sprint haters have is a spin off. Which is very possible but unlikely.

To be honest, I have very little faith in that ten year plan lasting more than five years tops. I could very well be wrong, but I’m not used to that level of stability from 343i.

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> 2533274919593162;4780:
> That’s a good point. But i can say For sure that Halo infinite is gonna be the halo for 10 years.

You base that trust on a ten year promise on a developer which have shown 8 minutes of gameplay and some information on Skins
Destiny 1 was said to last ten years, that didn’t happen.
Anthem was promised to be a ten year product, was that game even on anyone’s “good radar” a month after release?

i343 botched up five years of development so bad, that less than a half year before its launch as a console launch title, the game got delayed. Five years.
I seriously doubt i343 even have five years ahead planned, even less a constructed management plan to get all that “stuff” done in the time-frame it is planned.

Just as with your statement that sprint won’t leave, but the same thing have been said about other mechanics and features that have been removed, a ten year support is as baseless as it gets.

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> 2533274919593162;4785:
> > 2535458188883243;4782:
> > > The only hope sprint haters have is a spin off.
> >
> > And that spin off will garner wildly better results lol.
> >
> > You call us sprint haters when we pull completely valid reasons for it’s removal while you offer slim excuses to keep it.
> > Why does Halo need sprint, why has every Halo game with sprint been less popular than those without? why does the competitive community always disable or nerf sprint? Why does Halo need to mimic every other shooter? Why can’t Halo be like Doom and return to it’s roots?
> > answer these questions and provide an actual defense for the mechanic, stop attacking player skill or dancing around the subject.
> > Lastly, why defend a mechanic that brings more harm than good? you can clearly see that it has more negatives than positives so why bother?
>
> Personally I think Halos lack of sales has several issues that don’t necessarily have anything to do with sprint.
> 1. I think they did a poor job with the semi pro scene and tourneys.
> 2. They did a poor job with the release of the game.
> 3. They did a poor job with the development of the game (bugs, etc…).
> 4. The time it came out.
> 5. They changed too much too fast.
> 6. The community is very stubborn.

Those may explain sales, but what of my other questions

4791

> 2533274919593162;4769:
> > 2533274819446242;4747:
> > Whether or trying to sprint less is advantageous isn’t the point. That being said radar shouldn’t be in competitive play at all but I digress. My point was that sprint is an unavoidable part of the game regardless of whether you sprint a lot or only a little. “Just don’t sprint if you don’t like it” is a ridiculous suggestion when there is a not insignificant number of situations that could arise that would force you to sprint in order to do what you want to do.
>
> I’m not saying just don’t sprint I said you can have successful games without sprinting everywhere.

Which is not relevant to the point I was making. I was specifically pointing out that the fairly common suggestion of “Well if you don’t like sprint, just don’t use it” is a absurd suggestion in a game designed around sprint as some degree of sprinting is unavoidable.

> > 2533274819446242;4747:
> > This slows the pace of the game as more kills go unfinished which coincidentally doesn’t help the argument that sprint speeds up the pace of the game, but again that wasn’t really main point of my post.
>
> LMAO how can you state that i’m making the argument that it speeds up the game, when i specifically said it tempers things.
> I just can’t, i’m dead. LOL.
> Finishing kills isn’t only up to you. You have teammates. I suggest using them.

Good thing I didn’t say your were making the pacing argument, just another one of my digressions for the sake of anyone else who might be interested similar to my radar comment.

The fact that you can rely on your teammates to help finish your kills doesn’t actually negate the fact that sprint allows you to escape situations you otherwise couldn’t if there was no sprint.

> > 2533274819446242;4747:
> > I also never said you couldn’t get caught with your pants down in Halo 3 or H2 or CE for that matter. Only that a player is basically always going to have a chance to fight back since they are always in a combat ready state while moving at max speed.
>
> People reversing other players happens constantly in H5 (They have a medal for it lmao) so i don’t know why you are claiming otherwise.
> It is also ridiculous to state that someone can’t finish a kill because sprint alone people escape situations in H3. Happens all the time…

Who said that reversals can’t happen in H5? The issue is that you can’t move at max speed and fight. You have to choose between naviagting the maps designed around sprint in a timely matter, or being able to participate in combat, you can’t do both at the same time. In CE-H3 the basic act of moving around the map does not inhibit your ability to fight.

> > 2533274819446242;4747:
> > The bottom line is that sprint by its nature(especially when combined with other movement abilities) allows players to escape situations they wouldn’t otherwise in a sprintless Halo game with relative ease.
>
> Ok so first, it’s not easy to efficiently use skill jumps and others to escape a situation.
> Second, skill jump exists in older halos that allow people to either escape or get the jump on someone else so… don’t get what you’re are getting at.
> Most of the time if you are aware of the jump and are better or equally as good as them they are not escaping without help.

Why are you bringing up skill jumps? The point is that the player who is sprinting is going to have a fundamentally easier time escaping from an opponent who cannot move at the same speed if they want to actually continue to land shots, that goes for both single player and their teammates. I bring up other movement abilities that take away the ability to shoot(however brief) because they exacerbate sprints issues, but make no mistake sprint alone is a problem.

> > 2533274819446242;4747:
> > Like I said I don’t enjoy shooting at targets who can’t shoot back in Halo.
>
> Again Your last point is moot. Happens in H3 too.
> Not exclusive to games with sprint. goes for CSGO and all the others sprint haters love to talk about.
>
> But You are right you would be handicapping yourself by not using it and i sympathize with the fact that you guys can’t seem to get use to the mechanic but It’s in halo it won’t ever leave I suggest you try and learn how to implement it within your game play to the best of your ability.

Seeing as the simple act of navigating the map in H3 or H2 or CE, doesn’t inhibit your ability to participate in combat I don’t see how my point was “moot” in any meaningful sense.

Gotta love the implication that anyone who doesn’t enjoy having sprint in Halo just can’t handle the mechanic. The truth is that most of us can “get used” to the mechanic, because it isn’t a difficult mechanic to grasp and that is exactly the problem. When I am talking about players escaping, I’m not saying “oh woe is me I just can’t finish a kill because of sprint” I talking about some of my own experience using sprint to escape situations I know I wouldn’t otherwise, because again it really isn’t that difficult.

4792

> 2533274819446242;4757:
> Oh of course I forgot you can sprint sideways and backwards, silly me. Oh wait you can’t… The point that you can shoot immediately out of sprint when the mechanic only allows you to move at max speed in one direction.

I don’t get why that is an issue. It makes sense in a real world context. People run forwards.

> 2533274819446242;4757:
> You don’t need to be especially clever or tricky to escape when you can move at max speed without harming your overall goal(to escape) whereas the pursuing player can’t achieve max speed while trying to accomplish their goal(to finish the kill).

But if I’m shooting you - neither of us are sprinting.

I don’t profess to being anything but an average player… but if I’m caught from behind in the open I don’t bother trying to run. Sprinting is not going to help me. Best to turn and fight and hope that I can use thrusters to even the battle.

> 2533274819446242;4757:
> Folks love to try and frame sprint and friends as creating some unique new gameplay opportunities, but the reality is that players mostly end doing the same types of things they would in a sprintless Halo game. Sprint or no Sprint you are always going to try to move across the map as efficiently as possible while maintain map control, attempting to corner weakened enemies and poking out of cover to assess the situation. The only real difference with sprint and friends is that you have more easy to use defensive tools that slow the pace of the game and when you factor in the stretched maps, you don’t end up with a faster paced game.

I still think you need to frame sprint as the stepping stone to slide and other manouvers. It is when these combinations are used to push offensively that the nature of the game is changed. It’s not about the pace of the game per se. And the stretching of the maps is a non issue (unless you are trying to play old maps with new mechanics).

4793

> 2585548714655118;4792:
> I don’t get why that is an issue. It makes sense in a real world context. People run forwards.

My question is why are we adhering to real-world context in a “fantasy” world setting? Once you put this real world context to anything else, it falls apart, but it’s accepted because it’s a game.

I’m not him, but I’m going to assume from my own experience that the movement options you have while facing forwards will not necesarially be something you can do while facing any other direction. If there’s a gap you can only make while sprinting, that means you cannot make that same jump backwards or sideways. And since both older games and Halo 5 heavily discourage you from turning around to run away from a fight, your options become limited you can’t activate sprint to clear that gap while shooting at someone else. Same thing also applies to clamber really.

> 2585548714655118;4792:
> I don’t profess to being anything but an average player… but if I’m caught from behind in the open I don’t bother trying to run. Sprinting is not going to help me. Best to turn and fight and hope that I can use thrusters to even the battle.

I mean it would - 343i had to create a whole mechanic in Halo 5 to discourage/prevent sprinting from helping you in that situation, because sprinting would have helped you otherwise.

Basically sprint created a problem, and then they had to create a solution on top of the problem they created.

4794

> 2585548714655118;4792:
> > 2533274819446242;4757:
> > Oh of course I forgot you can sprint sideways and backwards, silly me. Oh wait you can’t… The point that you can shoot immediately out of sprint when the mechanic only allows you to move at max speed in one direction.
>
> I don’t get why that is an issue. It makes sense in a real world context. People run forwards.

Who cares about “real world context?” Its a video game series that carries a certain set of expectations from certain fans. One of those expectations being that you can move at or close to max speed while moving in any direction and be combat ready. Whether or not you can immediately shoot out of sprint is irrelevant when you can only move at max speed in one direction. The “guns up” philosophy from my perspective is about maintaining full mobility in all directions without sacrificing combat readiness.

> > 2533274819446242;4757:
> > The escape ability of sprint is an inherent issue with sprint in a game like Halo with a longer TTK. If you “don’t find people using sprint defensively any more” you simply do not pay attention to your surroundings. You are not maintaining max speed if you are trying shoot a fleeing player which is always going to be advantageous to the fleeing player.
>
> People escape because they are far enough away that they can get to cover while being shot at.

You say that like cover can’t be only a few feet away. The distance is irrelevant when you jet out of a bad situation the moment you break line of sight. In a game without sprint I might be able to break line of sight for a moment but I can’t then activate a speedboost that gets me out of a bad situation faster than the hunting player can chase me down while maintaining their ability to shoot.

> > 2533274819446242;4757:
> > You don’t need to be especially clever or tricky to escape when you can move at max speed without harming your overall goal(to escape) whereas the pursuing player can’t achieve max speed while trying to accomplish their goal(to finish the kill).
>
> But if I’m shooting you - neither of us are sprinting.

What on Earth are you talking about? The point I am making is that it is easier to escape a bad situation where you can move at max speed but the player hunting you can’t if they want to actually finish the kill.

> > 2533274819446242;4757:
> > Folks love to try and frame sprint and friends as creating some unique new gameplay opportunities, but the reality is that players mostly end doing the same types of things they would in a sprintless Halo game. Sprint or no Sprint you are always going to try to move across the map as efficiently as possible while maintain map control, attempting to corner weakened enemies and poking out of cover to assess the situation. The only real difference with sprint and friends is that you have more easy to use defensive tools that slow the pace of the game and when you factor in the stretched maps, you don’t end up with a faster paced game.
>
> I still think you need to frame sprint as the stepping stone to slide and other manouvers. It is when these combinations are used to push offensively that the nature of the game is changed. It’s not about the pace of the game per se. And the stretching of the maps is a non issue (unless you are trying to play old maps with new mechanics).

There is no reason we actually need to other movement mechanics to sprint. Shoot something like Unreal tournament has a sprint, dodge, wall dodge, slides, all sorts of movement mechanics without the need to tie any of them to a canned animation. To be fair I’m not that familiar with the particular franchise, so it may very well be you cannot shoot while performing some of those moves(though at the speed of that game it looks like it would hardly matter), but the overall point stands is that you do not in fact need an arm waving guns down sprint mechanic in order to have a broader range of movement mechanics.

To be clear I am also not saying that Halo should Unreal Tournament, I think OG Halo’s slower pace and simplicity was part of its appeal. Again, I only bring it up to point out that we in fact do not need mechanics like slide to be chained to sprint in order to have those other movement mechanics. That all being said, I’m not a big fan of slide or any abilities that deform the players hitbox, I’d sooner keep a slower thrust than something like slide or Reach’s Evade.

4795

The skill argument can be put to rest. I played Reach mlg, where most of the time sprint was default, same goes for the first 6 months of H4. I played a lot of quake live also which is a far more mechanical game than any Halo ever will be. Halo has established gametypes, maps, pacing and weapons, the games it tries to ape are all either insta killtimes or 1 life only. There are many ways to have movement complexity, sprint isn’t complex and the combos only exist in H5 due to the 6-7 options available.

Sprint in Reach and H4 had no major benefit, you tapped a button and got to leave a situation, if you wanted to play aggressive you were stuck in the mud, if you “choose not to use it” then they run away or around you, it’s necessary. It’s of convenience that the pro-sprint crowd gets to fall back to movement combos as an excuse. This will not be in Infinite and was only in H5. You don’t need sprint to accomplish this either, quake had momentum conservation with its jumps.

As others have pointed out only when sprint is gimped like in H5 is it more inconvenient to play cat and mouse. In reach and H4 you could just run. Why implement a mechanic to then strip all benefits it carries with it, yet keep the negative consequences the mechanic brings when a better thrust mechanic or introducing movement oriented items and weapons would accomplish what it does without forcing the player to be in an animation half the game and make the play very cat and mouse as a result.

Most of the competitive community has already voted what it wants, we got rid of bloom and sprint in Reach, we got rid of infinity settings in H4, we tried to play around with H5 then ditched it altogether to play throwback tournaments via the MCC. This is the equivalent of arguing why items are bad in smash, or why CSGO shouldn’t have sprint. The game is better off with a different approach. When we got rid of sprint in Reach the game sped up, it became less loose, pressure was more pivotal. If the game is too basic expand the sandbox, allow the players to be more playful and experimental and develop more complex maps & gametypes, don’t change the style of the game.

Halo has not evolved it has changed, it’s like wanting another crash game and getting crash of the titans instead. If Infinite is of the same calibre as H4 and H5 it won’t be a 10 year game, it will be in the bargain bin in less than 6 months.

4796

> 2533274819446242;4794:
> Shoot something like Unreal tournament has a sprint, dodge, wall dodge, slides, all sorts of movement mechanics without the need to tie any of them to a canned animation. To be fair I’m not that familiar with the particular franchise, so it may very well be you cannot shoot while performing some of those moves(though at the speed of that game it looks like it would hardly matter), but the overall point stands is that you do not in fact need an arm waving guns down sprint mechanic in order to have a broader range of movement mechanics.

The now abandoned Unreal Tournament?
It did have “sprint”, basically you’d speed up a little after moving forward uninterrupted. They removed that mechanic.

As far as I recall, you could use your weapons at all times. Atleast there’s no instance where I remember not being able to shoot when zipping across the map.

4797

I love ODST’S❤️

4798

> 2533274825830455;4788:
> > 2533274919593162;4780:
> > > 2533274825830455;4775:
> > > > 2533274919593162;4769:
> > > > but It’s in halo it won’t ever leave I suggest you try and learn how to implement it within your game play to the best of your ability.
> > >
> > > I have been told something along these lines, at some point, about more or less every mechanic in Halo that has since then been removed. That’s some food for thought. Oh, I’ve also been told sprint doesn’t need to be nerfed, twice. Coincidentally, I have also seen sprint get nerfed, twice.
> > >
> > > So, forgive my skepticism, but you guys don’t have the best track record at predicting the future of Halo.
> >
> > That’s a good point. But i can say For sure that Halo infinite is gonna be the halo for 10 years. And it has sprint. So with that being said there is 10 yrs with sprint minimum. The only hope sprint haters have is a spin off. Which is very possible but unlikely.
>
> To be honest, I have very little faith in that ten year plan lasting more than five years tops. I could very well be wrong, but I’m not used to that level of stability from 343i.

Yup Agreed. But lets be frank. It would be very difficult for any set of devs to keep a game live for 10yrs. regardless of how good they are.

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> > > > > > > > 2533274919593162;4711:
> > > > > > > > Is this your main account…
> > > > > > > > Because i’m done having this discussion with you if you’ve never played halo 5.
> > > > >
> > > > > the map stretrching and aim assist increasde needed to balance sprint remove the benefit of faster movenment options in practice. it makes them speed locked versions of faster bms.
> > > >
> > > > Yes the Devs balance things, it’s their job… what’s your point. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the game…
> > > > There are points throughout the match where sprint regardless of map size comes handy. That’s irrefutable.
> > >
> > > His point is that because the devs have to balance around this inconsistent mechanic that can at any point drastically up your movement speed, the maps and weapon design need to be changed so that they work better against sprinting players, but this in turn makes combat at BMS janky and weird as aim assist is too high and maps have tons of deadzones with little cover.
> >
> > But shooting in halo 2 and 3 when close is easier than Halo 5 so I don’t understand your point. No one misses at high lvl. Kinda boring if you ask me.
>
> H5 is boring if you ask me as it just becomes a game of running to wherever people spawn. Plus in H2 your weapons actually work, the maps are better and the game overall is more fun. Lockout and Midship are better than any map in H5 and that’s a fact and people do miss at high levels while the gameplay is further compounded by the button combos.

H3 is the same thing…
You try and control where they spawn and you collapse…
no different.
It just feels different because people are able to collapse faster.

4800

> 2533274795123910;4796:
> > 2533274819446242;4794:
> > Shoot something like Unreal tournament has a sprint, dodge, wall dodge, slides, all sorts of movement mechanics without the need to tie any of them to a canned animation. To be fair I’m not that familiar with the particular franchise, so it may very well be you cannot shoot while performing some of those moves(though at the speed of that game it looks like it would hardly matter), but the overall point stands is that you do not in fact need an arm waving guns down sprint mechanic in order to have a broader range of movement mechanics.
>
> The now abandoned Unreal Tournament?
> It did have “sprint”, basically you’d speed up a little after moving forward uninterrupted. They removed that mechanic.
>
> As far as I recall, you could use your weapons at all times. Atleast there’s no instance where I remember not being able to shoot when zipping across the map.

What happened to unreal tournament?

4801

> 2533274919593162;4800:
> > 2533274795123910;4796:
> > > 2533274819446242;4794:
> > > Shoot something like Unreal tournament has a sprint, dodge, wall dodge, slides, all sorts of movement mechanics without the need to tie any of them to a canned animation. To be fair I’m not that familiar with the particular franchise, so it may very well be you cannot shoot while performing some of those moves(though at the speed of that game it looks like it would hardly matter), but the overall point stands is that you do not in fact need an arm waving guns down sprint mechanic in order to have a broader range of movement mechanics.
> >
> > The now abandoned Unreal Tournament?
> > It did have “sprint”, basically you’d speed up a little after moving forward uninterrupted. They removed that mechanic.
> >
> > As far as I recall, you could use your weapons at all times. Atleast there’s no instance where I remember not being able to shoot when zipping across the map.
>
> What happened to unreal tournament?

When Epic launched the Unreal Engine 4 they started working on a reboot for Unreal Tournament.
Their approach was that a rather small part of the development team focused on the game, and it was very open to community input. A large part of the development for that game was done by the community.

Epic then made a Moba Card game with Paragon.
Then they made the Fortnite game, and furthermore the Fortnite Battle Royal, which blew up huge.

After seeing the success of Fortnite’s BR, Epic completely dropped Paragon, shutting down servers, refunding mtx purchases done in a specific time period backwards, and dismantling the game, releasing all game assets on the Epic store for people to use in game development.

Shortly after Epic dropped the development Paragon, they did the same for UT. Though it was more a formal drop as the development for that game had been very slow for a long time.