The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
4742

> 2533274919593162;4741:
> > 2533274801176260;4734:
> > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > Take any halo 3 game you rarely if ever see them partially peg there controller to access a specific movement speed. Which is what I explained.
> >
> > And what is the difference to H5G? Why would you ever use a speed that isn’t the max speed when you want to get towards / away from a certain location quickly?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > Having 3 movement toggles offers easier control over your character
> >
> > Uh… no. Having all speeds mapped to a single stick is by definition easier to control that having to access the same stick and a button.
> > (That is also precisely the reason why classic Halo had crouch mapped to that very same stick, even though it was a toggle.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > They are not arbitrary. And it’s not disempowering. you had everything you did before sprint was included. now you get an additional option.
> >
> > False.
> > I can no longer shoot while moving at max speed.
> > I can no longer throw grenades while moving at max speed.
> > I can no longer move at max speed in any direction other than forwards.
> > Those are just three things off the top of my head I no longer have since sprint was included.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > I’m pretty sure the BMS in H5 is higher than H3 so in every way you are empowered.
> >
> > And the maps are stretched to compensate, so moving at BMS is actually slower relative to the map geometry in H5G than in Halo 3.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > A huge player base will be on PC
> >
> > Correct. And PC players have been far less accepting of gimmicky movement mechanics than console gamers. The most played PC game to this day is still Counterstrike, which doesn’t have sprint. I would expect the Internet to go up in flames if Valve would ever try to add it. Dito, Team Fortress 2.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > how would mouse and keyboard players simulate gradual key press. I’ll tell you. It’s impossible!
> >
> > Not my problem if they choose to use an inferior control scheme, making them more predictable. /s
> > As was already said, the statement about “more speeds available” was already a farce in the first place, because nobody is ever going to use anything else than the fastest speed when going somewhere, sprint or not.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > Listen the whole point of sprint is to simulate an action. Not to increase speed. Speed is just the byproduct of the action. It also serves as a way to temper other actions like slide etc…
> > >
> > > You just can’t replace it with increase BMS. No matter how illogical you wanna be about it.
> >
> > I know.
> > That’s precisely the point: Having two movement speeds doesn’t make the game faster (if anything it makes it slower), it doesn’t add any more options (it rather takes them away), it just gimps the player with respect to movement when they’re fighting and with respect to combat while they’re moving. It’s a lose-lose mechanic.
> > I want to get rid of that action, as it’s detrimental to the game.
>
> LMAO. This no sprint discussion is hilarious.
> You still don’t get it. You keep saying the same thing after I mentioned sprint has nothing to do with increasing the speed of the game.
> Sprint simply adds more control over your players movement speed and simulates a “real life action”. The argument that it actually doesn’t make things faster has nothing to do with why sprint is good for a game so just stop.
>
> it’s not detrimental. it’s another mechanic you get to master. in old halo there are points where you are moving throughout a map and not shooting. Now in halo 5 that moment is replaced with sprinting. At no point is it detrimental to you as a player.
>
> keyboard mouse is by all means not more inferior to a controller. LOL.
> How do you accept the fact that people won’t use more than the fastest movement speed and then say that because keyboard mouse players can’t utilize a joystick to manipulate the speed of their character it’s inferior. We agree that any speed in between 0-100 (except for the crouch speed) is moot when sprint is not in a game
>
> the statement that PC players are less excepting of the sprint mechanic is simply ridiculous.
>
> Regardless of whether the maps are stretched it doesn’t change the fact that the BMS in H5 is faster therefore allowing you to place yourself further from cover then you would if you were playing H3.
>
> Having everything mapped to a single button is not what the definition of making things easy… if mapping everything to less buttons made things easier why not just have a controller with one or two button(s) where you could just use a combination of forces to accomplish different tasks LOL. There’s a reason people don’t utilize all speeds in a joystick as often as they do with a dedicated sprint button.
>
> BtW you can throw grenades while sprinting…
> The whole not being able to shoot while sprinting is a good thing. It tempers the pace of the game.
> Bottom line people who hate sprint just don’t get that speed of a game is not why people like sprint.

“real life action” has never been a good argument for adding bad mechanics, PC players are less accepting as PC games are wildly more varied and games like TF2 and CSGO are still popular despite not giving the ability to press the shift key for a locked animation.

The BMS is faster than in H3 but maps are upsized by a factor large enough for this point to mean nothing, you still can traverse the map faster in old school Halo.

Your last whole section is just wrong, You can not throw grenades while sprinting and tempering the pace of the game is a bad thing in this case as classic Halo found the balance between movement speed and map design. Wow look I have to slow down to actually fight people, almost like the mechanic does nothing to enhance the sandbox since I have to slow to the base combat speed to actually do things against other players.

You realize Halo is an arena-style shooter? you know where combat and movement take place at the same time? guess we should dumb it down for the sake of “realism” and the such.

4743

> 2533274919593162;4741:
> Sprint simply adds more control over your players movement speed and simulates a “real life action”.

Moving at “full speed forward” (sprinting) disable strafing and reduce turn speed.
Which prohibit full utilisation of actively looking around effectively.

That is less controll, less freedom of movement.
Not to mention.
As long as sprint speed is regarded as 100% move speed, there’s a gap between normal base movement speed, and the sprint speed. A Speed gap which is inaccesible to the player.

Real life action, so?

> 2533274919593162;4741:
> it’s not detrimental. it’s another mechanic you get to master. in old halo there are points where you are moving throughout a map and not shooting. Now in halo 5 that moment is replaced with sprinting. At no point is it detrimental to you as a player.

What is there to master with sprint if it’s “replaced” the “non-shooty” part of older Halos? Getting better at not shooting?

Not detrimental?
It removes your combat capabilities, reduce a lot of your movement functionalities, lock your view in a specific direction if you wish to continue using it. Additionally, in Halo 5 your shield does not recharge if you use it before the recharge starts, and that it also increase the chances of an enemy succesfully disengaging from an encounter the deem lost, because every choice you do is beneficial for them, provided they choose to disengage at the right time.

> 2533274919593162;4741:
> Regardless of whether the maps are stretched it doesn’t change the fact that the BMS in H5 is faster therefore allowing you to place yourself further from cover then you would if you were playing H3.

So?
A higher BMS does not place all those limitations on the player wishing to move at the fastest speed.

> 2533274919593162;4741:
> The whole not being able to shoot while sprinting is a good thing. It tempers the pace of the game.

In the grand things of “tempering the pace of the game”, it is but a fraction of everything which affect the game pace, even from map to map.
i343 did not implement sprint in its current form to dictate the pace of the game.

> 2533274919593162;4741:
> Bottom line people who hate sprint just don’t get that speed of a game is not why people like sprint.

Pretty worthless assumption, there have been numerous instances over the years of people saying why they like sprint, ranging from immersion, to balancing and being used to it.

4744

I’m fascinated by the years old argument that sprinting lowers your weapon, removes strafing, reduces look, reduces movement freedom…

When the freedom was between choosing to sprint or not.

Most fps games have the simple dynamic of burst of forward speed vs ‘ready’ combat mechanics. If you don’t wanna sprint, don’t. Shoot people who do with your 100% always ready vigilant self but know that there are a bunch of players who are groomed on balancing the dynamic.

While ago I’d argue back and forth but this is really tired tbh and everything that could be said is said. I’ll leave the thread on this: You don’t have to sprint if you don’t want to.

4745

> 2533274797640604;4744:
> I’m fascinated by the years old argument that sprinting lowers your weapon, removes strafing, reduces look, reduces movement freedom…
>
> When the freedom was between choosing to sprint or not.
>
> Most fps games have the simple dynamic of burst of forward speed vs ‘ready’ combat mechanics. If you don’t wanna sprint, don’t. Shoot people who do with your 100% always ready vigilant self but know that there are a bunch of players who are groomed on balancing the dynamic.
>
> While ago I’d argue back and forth but this is really tired tbh and everything that could be said is said. I’ll leave the thread on this: You don’t have to sprint if you don’t want to.

…and there you have it!

4746

I’ve been watching people argue the pros and cons of sprinting in Halo.

The one I don’t really get is the need for ‘guns up’ at all times.

In Halo 5 your ability to shoot out of sprint is nigh on instantaneous, at least with the magnum. Sure, it’s a bit slower for the heavier guns… but meh, it’s trivial.

So really, your gun may not be ‘up’, but you are free to shoot at will.

4747

“Just don’t sprint if you don’t want to” has never been a serious point worth considering. The maps are designed around sprint and “choosing” not to sprint at all isn’t a serious tactic, it is an inherently suboptimal way to play. There are simply too many scenarios that will require you to sprint across a map designed around the ability to in order accomplish whatever goal you have in mind. And because sprint is necessary to some degree to navigate the map, it is always going to be something of a crapshoot as to whether you are going to you are going to be punished or rewarded for that “choice.” The “choice” might be yours whether or not you may sprint in a particular circumstance, but whether or not you are punished for that “decision” is entirely out of your hands barring some perfect map awareness from both you and/or your team.

As far as ‘guns up’ point is concerned the issue is that you cannot maintain max speed in multiple directions while being combat ready. One of the big appeals of Halo, at least for me, is the possibility of turning around a bad situation with your own skill. I don’t find shooting at targets who can’t shoot back to be very engaging whether they got caught with their pants down or whether they are simply running away. Halo 5’s “balance” mechanic of tying shield recharge to does very little to mitigate escape potential and because it harms both the runner and the chaser to an equal degree. Sure it might help in a situation where you already have an overwhelming advantage(IE taking no damage from your opponent), but otherwise in order to keep up with a sprinting target you are forced to sprint yourself and you are left vulnerable with your shields being unable to recharge, your weapon is down, and you are limited to a single direction.

4748

> 2585548714655118;4705:
> It’s not as false as people make out.
>
> Not when you take on the full gamut of enhanced mobility.
>
> Sprinting is the gateway mechanic to slide… and when you take in the full array of jump / slide / thrust combinations - there is a mesmerising amount of choice.
>
> And I’m amazed at how the good players can make me look foolish in my own choices.
>
> It’s taken me a while to work it out, but I think that is the difference between sprint (which you do end up doing most of the time) and simply having a faster base speed. It’s how sprint feeds into the other options. Could you keep these other options and just do away with sprint? - possibly… but by bridging them with sprint you have a mechanism to temper their use within the sandbox.
>
> And you most definitely can use sprint to engage in combat. Your gun may not be up but it really doesn’t take long to start shooting when you need to.
>
> Often, in the heat of a firefight, there is even opportunity to sprint and slide/thrust again.
>
> In Halo 5 you can move around a map in a way that denies your opponent’s control of the map. I guess that is the essence of Classic vs Current Halo, and sprint is a core part of that mechanic.

slide could easily be bound to crouch+ thrusters insted of sprinting. a slightly faster bms would do the rest.

4749

> 2533274919593162;4717:
> > 2533274825830455;4715:
> > > 2533274919593162;4711:
> > > Is this your main account…
> > > Because i’m done having this discussion with you if you’ve never played halo 5.
> >
> > Well, that turned hostile fast.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274919593162;4711:
> > > I’m gonna end it there. Cause there’s no point in discussing this with you cause you don’t even have a rank in halo 5
> >
> > Look, if you want to participate in this thread, you keep to the topic at hand and be nice to others. Ranks have nothing to do with movement mechanics, nor do they change the words written on the page. If you don’t have a response to those words, it’s more pleasant for everyone if you say nothing at all.
> >
> > This forum has rules against stat-flaming. Now, I’m not going to do anything unless you start telling me I suck at Halo because you can’t tell my skill level, or that I don’t know what I’m talking about because of it. But I’m just pointing that out so things don’t get worse.
> >
> > So, it would be best if you just forgot about my non-existent rank. Of course, whether you want to continue this discussion is up to you. Just that if you do, you will keep it to the topic at hand.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274919593162;4711:
> > > Sprint definitely does bring more randomness to the movement whether you want to believe it or not.
> >
> > I mean, at this point you’re just insisting without evidence. I don’t suppose you have thought how you would even go about quantifying randomness?
>
> For everyone in the forum sure I can specify exactly what randomness means and how it can be quantified.
>
> Randomness: the qualities or state of lack of pattern within a situation.
>
> So because You don’t have much experience with the game or probably a lot of people that would be in this forum won’t either i’ll reference something more simple.
>
> Take a coin there are two sides two it so if you flip it you have a 50/50 chance to predict what will happen. Now take a 6 sided dice and try to predict the out come of the roll. You’ll have a 1 in 6 chance in choosing the right out come.
>
> This is an increase in randomness by like 33%.
>
> Now let’s apply this to halo.
>
> in ancient halo you had 4 speeds
>
> 1. walking,
> 2. full speed (when pegging the stick)
> 3. crouch walking
> 4. stationary
>
> You can only chose one at a time. therefore you have 1/4 options of movement so there is a 25% quote/ unquote randomness in movement.
>
> Now let’s take Halo 5, you have all from before
>
> 1. walking,
> 2. full speed (when pegging the stick)
> 3. crouch walking
> 4. stationary
>
> plus sprint, and everything else that sprint enables so
>
> 5. sprint
> 6. sprint slide
>
> now we can add thrusting another major unpredictably amazing mechanic added to the game which brings amazing dept it.
>
> 7. sprint thrust slide
> 8. jump thrust
> 9. knee capping
> 10. sprint jump thrust slide
> 11. sprint thrust
> 12. sprint jump thrust
>
> this brings it to a 1/12 vs 1/4
> which surprisingly is the same increase in randomness as the dice vs the coin.
>
> Satisfied.
>
> Even if we were to remove sprint and only have thrust you would only get 2 of the additional which would drop it to a increase of around 20%; still a meaningful increase.
>
> Hence Undeniably more unpredictable movement than previous halos.
>
> BTW. it’s not hostility it’s smart not to discuss something with someone that has no experience in the matter. It’s a simple question. If it’s not your main account you could just state that it’s not and the discussion will continue.

the map stretrching and aim assist increasde needed to balance sprint remove the benefit of faster movenment options in practice. it makes them speed locked versions of faster bms.

4750

> 2535467341363106;4724:
> I think ‘enhanced movement’ is a must. The 1st 3 Quake games had insane possibilities (circle jumping, plasma scaling, B2R, half beat strafe jumping,…) and an even crazier skill ceiling to master these.
>
> Look up some Quake Defrag movies. It is insane!
>
> Putting this enhanced movement stuff (dash, double jump, grappling hook,…) on simple inputs, enables the core gameplay to be built around these abilities. There are some games that show how enriching these are if properly implemented. I find it very hard to go back after you played a bit with these.
>
> Examples:
> - Doom Eternal vs Doom 2016 - Sekiro vs Dark Souls (or Bloodborne)

dash, double jump and such like all are omnidirectional, which better suits halo than sprint or clamber.

4751

scaling down thrusters and making them momentum based, linking slide to the thrusters, slightly increasing bms and the crouch jump height bonus and removing sprint and clamber would greatly improve the sandbox.
forward movement while not shooting could have a 2-5% faster top speed and slight gun sway animation to give the feeling of sprint.
managing a crouch jump could trigger a short weapon lowering animation when not shooting to give the feeling of clamber.

4752

> 2533274819446242;4747:
> As far as ‘guns up’ point is concerned the issue is that you cannot maintain max speed in multiple directions while being combat ready. One of the big appeals of Halo, at least for me, is the possibility of turning around a bad situation with your own skill. I don’t find shooting at targets who can’t shoot back to be very engaging whether they got caught with their pants down or whether they are simply running away. Halo 5’s “balance” mechanic of tying shield recharge to does very little to mitigate escape potential and because it harms both the runner and the chaser to an equal degree. Sure it might help in a situation where you already have an overwhelming advantage(IE taking no damage from your opponent), but otherwise in order to keep up with a sprinting target you are forced to sprint yourself and you are left vulnerable with your shields being unable to recharge, your weapon is down, and you are limited to a single direction.

I’m still pondering…

I feel that the near instantaneous draw and fire of the magnum (at least) means that you are essentially guns up.

I don’t find people using sprint defensively any more. Being shot out breaks you out of sprint and keeps you out. You pretty much can’t run away unless you are close enough to cover to get there at base speed (which means you positioned yourself safely) or your opponent is a bad shot (lucky for you).

If your opponent is that far away that you can’t pin them down and force a contest then you just let them go. The onus is then on you to predict which way they are heading and try and head them off at the pass (individually or as a team). Chasing them tends to be more trouble than it’s worth (unless you know for sure they are there, alone, and minimal health). Cat and mouse if you like.

It’s a mindset that enhanced mobility fans tend to embrace - and I guess diametrically opposed to the classical ideas of map control.

Stepping out of cover, testing the waters, and then thrusting back is a different kettle of fish… and well suited to defensive mindsets.

4753

> 2533274945422049;4749:
> the map stretrching and aim assist increasde needed to balance sprint remove the benefit of faster movenment options in practice. it makes them speed locked versions of faster bms.

I don’t feel map stretching is a bad thing.

It’s only when people expect old maps to play the same way as days of yore. They don’t.

Maps specifically designed for the inherent mobility of the game should play well.

The increased aim assist is an issue though.

4754

> 2533274945422049;4750:
> > 2535467341363106;4724:
> > I think ‘enhanced movement’ is a must. The 1st 3 Quake games had insane possibilities (circle jumping, plasma scaling, B2R, half beat strafe jumping,…) and an even crazier skill ceiling to master these.
> >
> > Look up some Quake Defrag movies. It is insane!
> >
> > Putting this enhanced movement stuff (dash, double jump, grappling hook,…) on simple inputs, enables the core gameplay to be built around these abilities. There are some games that show how enriching these are if properly implemented. I find it very hard to go back after you played a bit with these.
> >
> > Examples:
> > - Doom Eternal vs Doom 2016 - Sekiro vs Dark Souls (or Bloodborne)
>
> dash, double jump and such like all are omnidirectional, which better suits halo than sprint or clamber.

Yes, the omnidirectional nature really helps but clamber is more like a logical choice, I think. No more crashing into walls because you jumped 1 mm too low.

Regarding sprint, I don’t really care much tbh. Currently, there are bigger problems than this topic :frowning:

4755

> 2535467341363106;4754:
> > 2533274945422049;4750:
> > > 2535467341363106;4724:
> > > I think ‘enhanced movement’ is a must. The 1st 3 Quake games had insane possibilities (circle jumping, plasma scaling, B2R, half beat strafe jumping,…) and an even crazier skill ceiling to master these.
> > >
> > > Look up some Quake Defrag movies. It is insane!
> > >
> > > Putting this enhanced movement stuff (dash, double jump, grappling hook,…) on simple inputs, enables the core gameplay to be built around these abilities. There are some games that show how enriching these are if properly implemented. I find it very hard to go back after you played a bit with these.
> > >
> > > Examples:
> > > - Doom Eternal vs Doom 2016 - Sekiro vs Dark Souls (or Bloodborne)
> >
> > dash, double jump and such like all are omnidirectional, which better suits halo than sprint or clamber.
>
> Yes, the omnidirectional nature really helps but clamber is more like a logical choice, I think. No more crashing into walls because you jumped 1 mm too low.
>
> Regarding sprint, I don’t really care much tbh. Currently, there are bigger problems than this topic :frowning:

I have never had this issue in classic Halo. Not once. I think its pretty clear when its a jump you can make versus one you can’t, and if its a jump you can’t make, you wont make it by a lot more than a couple of millimeters.

Plus people forget crouch jumping exists.

4756

> 2533275031935123;4755:
> > 2535467341363106;4754:
> > > 2533274945422049;4750:
> > > > 2535467341363106;4724:
> > > > I think ‘enhanced movement’ is a must. The 1st 3 Quake games had insane possibilities (circle jumping, plasma scaling, B2R, half beat strafe jumping,…) and an even crazier skill ceiling to master these.
> > > >
> > > > Look up some Quake Defrag movies. It is insane!
> > > >
> > > > Putting this enhanced movement stuff (dash, double jump, grappling hook,…) on simple inputs, enables the core gameplay to be built around these abilities. There are some games that show how enriching these are if properly implemented. I find it very hard to go back after you played a bit with these.
> > > >
> > > > Examples:
> > > > - Doom Eternal vs Doom 2016 - Sekiro vs Dark Souls (or Bloodborne)
> > >
> > > dash, double jump and such like all are omnidirectional, which better suits halo than sprint or clamber.
> >
> > Yes, the omnidirectional nature really helps but clamber is more like a logical choice, I think. No more crashing into walls because you jumped 1 mm too low.
> >
> > Regarding sprint, I don’t really care much tbh. Currently, there are bigger problems than this topic :frowning:
>
> I have never had this issue in classic Halo. Not once. I think its pretty clear when its a jump you can make versus one you can’t, and if its a jump you can’t make, you wont make it by a lot more than a couple of millimeters.
>
> Plus people forget crouch jumping exists.

I had this issue way too often than I’d like to admit but it gets better when you start to know the maps and routes etc. It makes it a bit more easier and natural to get around the geometry though.

I think that it’s a base mechanic in shooters nowadays like aim down sight and whatnot. I would be very puzzled if clamber and sprint are not in the game but it’s not a deal breaker for me. It all depends on how the rest of the game works but so far we heard nothing :(.

4757

> 2585548714655118;4752:
> > 2533274819446242;4747:
> > As far as ‘guns up’ point is concerned the issue is that you cannot maintain max speed in multiple directions while being combat ready. One of the big appeals of Halo, at least for me, is the possibility of turning around a bad situation with your own skill. I don’t find shooting at targets who can’t shoot back to be very engaging whether they got caught with their pants down or whether they are simply running away. Halo 5’s “balance” mechanic of tying shield recharge to does very little to mitigate escape potential and because it harms both the runner and the chaser to an equal degree. Sure it might help in a situation where you already have an overwhelming advantage(IE taking no damage from your opponent), but otherwise in order to keep up with a sprinting target you are forced to sprint yourself and you are left vulnerable with your shields being unable to recharge, your weapon is down, and you are limited to a single direction.
>
> I’m still pondering…
>
> I feel that the near instantaneous draw and fire of the magnum (at least) means that you are essentially guns up.
>
> I don’t find people using sprint defensively any more. Being shot out breaks you out of sprint and keeps you out. You pretty much can’t run away unless you are close enough to cover to get there at base speed (which means you positioned yourself safely) or your opponent is a bad shot (lucky for you).
>
> If your opponent is that far away that you can’t pin them down and force a contest then you just let them go. The onus is then on you to predict which way they are heading and try and head them off at the pass (individually or as a team). Chasing them tends to be more trouble than it’s worth (unless you know for sure they are there, alone, and minimal health). Cat and mouse if you like.
>
> It’s a mindset that enhanced mobility fans tend to embrace - and I guess diametrically opposed to the classical ideas of map control.
>
> Stepping out of cover, testing the waters, and then thrusting back is a different kettle of fish… and well suited to defensive mindsets.

Oh of course I forgot you can sprint sideways and backwards, silly me. Oh wait you can’t… The point that you can shoot immediately out of sprint when the mechanic only allows you to move at max speed in one direction.

The escape ability of sprint is an inherent issue with sprint in a game like Halo with a longer TTK. If you “don’t find people using sprint defensively any more” you simply do not pay attention to your surroundings. You are not maintaining max speed if you are trying shoot a fleeing player which is always going to be advantageous to the fleeing player.

“Cat and mouse games” are not unique to games with sprint mechanics, players can and always will try to turn around a bad situation if they can, and they should. The issue that with sprint those escapes quite simply do not require as much effort on the part of the fleeing player. You don’t need to be especially clever or tricky to escape when you can move at max speed without harming your overall goal(to escape) whereas the pursuing player can’t achieve max speed while trying to accomplish their goal(to finish the kill).

Folks love to try and frame sprint and friends as creating some unique new gameplay opportunities, but the reality is that players mostly end doing the same types of things they would in a sprintless Halo game. Sprint or no Sprint you are always going to try to move across the map as efficiently as possible while maintain map control, attempting to corner weakened enemies and poking out of cover to assess the situation. The only real difference with sprint and friends is that you have more easy to use defensive tools that slow the pace of the game and when you factor in the stretched maps, you don’t end up with a faster paced game.

4758

> 2535467341363106;4756:
> > 2533275031935123;4755:
> > > 2535467341363106;4754:
> > > > 2533274945422049;4750:
> > > > > 2535467341363106;4724:
> > > > > I think ‘enhanced movement’ is a must. The 1st 3 Quake games had insane possibilities (circle jumping, plasma scaling, B2R, half beat strafe jumping,…) and an even crazier skill ceiling to master these.
> > > > >
> > > > > Look up some Quake Defrag movies. It is insane!
> > > > >
> > > > > Putting this enhanced movement stuff (dash, double jump, grappling hook,…) on simple inputs, enables the core gameplay to be built around these abilities. There are some games that show how enriching these are if properly implemented. I find it very hard to go back after you played a bit with these.
> > > > >
> > > > > Examples:
> > > > > - Doom Eternal vs Doom 2016 - Sekiro vs Dark Souls (or Bloodborne)
> > > >
> > > > dash, double jump and such like all are omnidirectional, which better suits halo than sprint or clamber.
> > >
> > > Yes, the omnidirectional nature really helps but clamber is more like a logical choice, I think. No more crashing into walls because you jumped 1 mm too low.
> > >
> > > Regarding sprint, I don’t really care much tbh. Currently, there are bigger problems than this topic :frowning:
> >
> > I have never had this issue in classic Halo. Not once. I think its pretty clear when its a jump you can make versus one you can’t, and if its a jump you can’t make, you wont make it by a lot more than a couple of millimeters.
> >
> > Plus people forget crouch jumping exists.
>
> I had this issue way too often than I’d like to admit but it gets better when you start to know the maps and routes etc. It makes it a bit more easier and natural to get around the geometry though.
>
> I think that it’s a base mechanic in shooters nowadays like aim down sight and whatnot. I would be very puzzled if clamber and sprint are not in the game but it’s not a deal breaker for me. It all depends on how the rest of the game works but so far we heard nothing :(.

I mean, I can see it helping for a little while, but I’m thinking back to Halo 3 maps in the base game, and I’m struggling to think of a single map where you would need clamber to reach a jump. I always thought that it was very clear as to whether you could make it or not, and if it was intended for you to reach the jump, there would be some form of man cannon there to help you along (Guardian does this).

I always hate the idea of “it’s a base mechanic, therefore in the game” because it seems like a lazy argument at best. Just because all the popular games are doing something, doesn’t mean that everyone else should too. Homogenization and chasing trends is part of the reason why Fallout 76 has more players on Xbox One than Halo 5 does.

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> I mean, I can see it helping for a little while, but I’m thinking back to Halo 3 maps in the base game, and I’m struggling to think of a single map where you would need clamber to reach a jump. I always thought that it was very clear as to whether you could make it or not, and if it was intended for you to reach the jump, there would be some form of man cannon there to help you along (Guardian does this).

Since you mentioned Guardian, the jump from gold to blue comes to mind. It isn’t immediately obvious to a player who doesn’t know it, and for the average player who hasn’t spent a great deal of time practicing it, the situation often described by Clamber fans is fairly likely. That’s probably the most impactful and most obvious jump in Halo 3 where it can happen that I can think of.

Generally, you can find a lot of jumps in Halo 3 that are not very obvious, and also not as impactful. But my view has always been that that’s strictly a good thing. The basic jumps should of course be clear and fairly simple to the player, but there should be jumps at various skill levels, and that also includes not just jumps that are difficult to execute, but also not so obvious.

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> > > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > > Take any halo 3 game you rarely if ever see them partially peg there controller to access a specific movement speed. Which is what I explained.
> > >
> > > And what is the difference to H5G? Why would you ever use a speed that isn’t the max speed when you want to get towards / away from a certain location quickly?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > > Having 3 movement toggles offers easier control over your character
> > >
> > > Uh… no. Having all speeds mapped to a single stick is by definition easier to control that having to access the same stick and a button.
> > > (That is also precisely the reason why classic Halo had crouch mapped to that very same stick, even though it was a toggle.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > > They are not arbitrary. And it’s not disempowering. you had everything you did before sprint was included. now you get an additional option.
> > >
> > > False.
> > > I can no longer shoot while moving at max speed.
> > > I can no longer throw grenades while moving at max speed.
> > > I can no longer move at max speed in any direction other than forwards.
> > > Those are just three things off the top of my head I no longer have since sprint was included.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > > I’m pretty sure the BMS in H5 is higher than H3 so in every way you are empowered.
> > >
> > > And the maps are stretched to compensate, so moving at BMS is actually slower relative to the map geometry in H5G than in Halo 3.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > > A huge player base will be on PC
> > >
> > > Correct. And PC players have been far less accepting of gimmicky movement mechanics than console gamers. The most played PC game to this day is still Counterstrike, which doesn’t have sprint. I would expect the Internet to go up in flames if Valve would ever try to add it. Dito, Team Fortress 2.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > > how would mouse and keyboard players simulate gradual key press. I’ll tell you. It’s impossible!
> > >
> > > Not my problem if they choose to use an inferior control scheme, making them more predictable. /s
> > > As was already said, the statement about “more speeds available” was already a farce in the first place, because nobody is ever going to use anything else than the fastest speed when going somewhere, sprint or not.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2533274919593162;4732:
> > > > Listen the whole point of sprint is to simulate an action. Not to increase speed. Speed is just the byproduct of the action. It also serves as a way to temper other actions like slide etc…
> > > >
> > > > You just can’t replace it with increase BMS. No matter how illogical you wanna be about it.
> > >
> > > I know.
> > > That’s precisely the point: Having two movement speeds doesn’t make the game faster (if anything it makes it slower), it doesn’t add any more options (it rather takes them away), it just gimps the player with respect to movement when they’re fighting and with respect to combat while they’re moving. It’s a lose-lose mechanic.
> > > I want to get rid of that action, as it’s detrimental to the game.
> >
> > LMAO. This no sprint discussion is hilarious.
> > You still don’t get it. You keep saying the same thing after I mentioned sprint has nothing to do with increasing the speed of the game.
> > Sprint simply adds more control over your players movement speed and simulates a “real life action”. The argument that it actually doesn’t make things faster has nothing to do with why sprint is good for a game so just stop.
> >
> > it’s not detrimental. it’s another mechanic you get to master. in old halo there are points where you are moving throughout a map and not shooting. Now in halo 5 that moment is replaced with sprinting. At no point is it detrimental to you as a player.
> >
> > keyboard mouse is by all means not more inferior to a controller. LOL.
> > How do you accept the fact that people won’t use more than the fastest movement speed and then say that because keyboard mouse players can’t utilize a joystick to manipulate the speed of their character it’s inferior. We agree that any speed in between 0-100 (except for the crouch speed) is moot when sprint is not in a game
> >
> > the statement that PC players are less excepting of the sprint mechanic is simply ridiculous.
> >
> > Regardless of whether the maps are stretched it doesn’t change the fact that the BMS in H5 is faster therefore allowing you to place yourself further from cover then you would if you were playing H3.
> >
> > Having everything mapped to a single button is not what the definition of making things easy… if mapping everything to less buttons made things easier why not just have a controller with one or two button(s) where you could just use a combination of forces to accomplish different tasks LOL. There’s a reason people don’t utilize all speeds in a joystick as often as they do with a dedicated sprint button.
> >
> > BtW you can throw grenades while sprinting…
> > The whole not being able to shoot while sprinting is a good thing. It tempers the pace of the game.
> > Bottom line people who hate sprint just don’t get that speed of a game is not why people like sprint.
>
> “real life action” has never been a good argument for adding bad mechanics, PC players are less accepting as PC games are wildly more varied and games like TF2 and CSGO are still popular despite not giving the ability to press the shift key for a locked animation.
>
> The BMS is faster than in H3 but maps are upsized by a factor large enough for this point to mean nothing, you still can traverse the map faster in old school Halo.
>
> Your last whole section is just wrong, You can not throw grenades while sprinting and tempering the pace of the game is a bad thing in this case as classic Halo found the balance between movement speed and map design. Wow look I have to slow down to actually fight people, almost like the mechanic does nothing to enhance the sandbox since I have to slow to the base combat speed to actually do things against other players.
>
> You realize Halo is an arena-style shooter? you know where combat and movement take place at the same time? guess we should dumb it down for the sake of “realism” and the such.

LOL. You literally did exactly what i said all sprint haters say after I stated what sprint accomplishes.
Just because you want to brainlessly shoot and move doesn’t mean it’s a bad mechanic.
CSGO and TF2 players do not define what all PC players want in a game LMAO.
I literally said that in a scenario where you are near cover H5s faster BMS gives you an advantage read it again.
There are plenty of arena style games that have sprint what’s your point. Silly statement.
This is how i know you really haven’t spent much or any time at all playing the game. If you YY you can sprint and throw grenades at the same time.

You can’t by all means traverse a map faster in H3 then you can in H5 that’s completely false.

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> > > 2533274825830455;4715:
> > > > 2533274919593162;4711:
> > > > Is this your main account…
> > > > Because i’m done having this discussion with you if you’ve never played halo 5.
>
> the map stretrching and aim assist increasde needed to balance sprint remove the benefit of faster movenment options in practice. it makes them speed locked versions of faster bms.

Yes the Devs balance things, it’s their job… what’s your point. Doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be in the game…
There are points throughout the match where sprint regardless of map size comes handy. That’s irrefutable.