The return of classic movement mechanics?

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> > > > > > > Let classic halo be classic halo, maybe spin offs could embrace the legacy more directly but let’s keep the enhanced movement.
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> > > > > > Doesn’t seem very enhanced.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most of those antisprint propaganda Youtube clips get up to 50% as many dislikes as they do likes (Case in point)… That’s quite telling, in terms of how divisive and inconclusive they actually are.
> >
> > Simply because one is not factually better than the other. They are 2 different styles of play each having their own pros an cons. Pro Classic player will claim that the new system decreases gameplay fluidity and increases TTK, while Pro Halo 5 player will claim that the old system is boring and the new one allows for more styles of engagement. Taken from the point of view of one or the other the opposing movement is ‘factually’ worse since both styles play differently, it really is simply a preference at the end of the day.
> >
> > Thus we will have to wait and see if 343 decide to take it back to Halo’s roots, continue forwards with their advanced movements or create a hybrid of a sort.
>
> “Pro-Classic players will claim that the new system decreases gameplay fluidity and increased TTK”? It’s rather that most of the “new system” mechanics don’t aid in fluidity or provide more options (Sprint and Clamber reduce your options, Clamber and Slide diminish momentum); and some of those that do are too rewarding of simple tasks (Spartan Charge and Ground Pound). I think there’s a discussion to be had about the merits of Thrusters, Stabilizers, and maybe Slide.
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> “Pro-Halo 5 players will claim that the old system is boring and the new one allows for more styles of engagement”? What was so boring about being able to move and shoot in different directions while moving at max speed? What new “styles of engagement” (I’d love a definition for this too) does the newer system make possible?
>
> Also, the “new system” is accounted for by decreased TTK, not increased.

I think what he’s implying is that old Halo felt slower and didn’t feel as flexible, and thus more boring.

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> Moving slower is beneath being able to run. We had one BMS to use as examples in CE, H2, and H3 and it was redundant, slow, and boring. Those games are great because of so many other elements, but one static BMS was not among them.

If the goal is simply to move quickly, moving slower is “beneath” moving faster. There’s more to it than that, though. High speed isn’t the be-all & end-all of good gameplay. Besides, having one BMS that is “faster-than-classic” would fulfill the wish to move faster without being restricted to forward movement and maintaining full use of the “golden triangle”. Why isn’t that a better alternative/compromise?

> Most people don’t walk into game stores looking to purchase a game solely on its mechanics. People most often buy new games they think are going to be fun and (often times) immersive. I understand you value your gameplay mechanics moreso than you do fun, realism, immersion, or lore; but that’s no reason for you to disregard others for enjoying these things in Halo. Sprint actively benefits players by making them feel more like a Spartan (and that doesn’t imply people need to do everything else like backflips, or anything else) Sprint is a non-invasive, mainstream FPS approach to help add more realism to Halo.

A game’s genre is defined by its mechanics, so I’d say that most people do think a lot about them when looking for games. People determine whether or not they think a game will be fun by looking at what they can do/how they can do things in said game.

“Immersion” is deep mental involvement. In gaming, it happens when players assess choices and make decisions, when they view the virtual settings/events as though they are real. This can and has been achieved with art styles and mechanics nothing like the real world. If someone can only be immersed by semi-realistic graphics and mechanics that mimic real life, perhaps a sci-fi FPS with regenerating health and super-soldiers that die with a punch to the back isn’t the best fit for them.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be a Halo fan/player, but that your given statements about fun and immersion don’t add up to you being one as opposed to preferring some other games on the market. What did you enjoy about the original trilogy? Did you ever get immersed while playing these games without Sprint?

> I understand your feelings on this issue but it strikes me as an “all or nothing,” approach which is inherently selfish IMO. For instance, there have been multiple well-articulated compromises from several pro sprinters, neutral fans, and even some anti sprinters; but for some reason there seems to be some immovable anti-sprint crowd when it comes to compromise. That’s just not how debating works in the real world. Resources are going to be spent regardless, and 343i has had way more time than ever to develop Halo Infinite so no need to cite those things as immovable forces in this argument. Besides whose to say that a compromise on sprint/movement mechanics has to be expensive and/or excessively time-consuming? Wouldn’t you want Halo Infinite to appeal to as many gamers as possible?

It’s been over a decade since there was a full Halo game without Sprint, yet wanting a “classic” Halo next is selfish?

The compromises that have been suggested would split up the population, require more resources, and give nobody the game they wanted. Debating in the real world can’t always be solved with compromise. Development time doesn’t make the demands of time and resources irrelevant. For the compromise to appeal to both crowds and everyone in between, they’d need to essentially develop two games. That is inherently more taxing on finite resources.

Yes, we’d all like for Halo to appeal to everyone, but that’s an unachievable ideal here in the real world.

> Also they had plenty of smaller maps in Halo 5 which weren’t impacted any differently by sprint then they were on larger maps.

That doesn’t mean they weren’t affected by the mechanic.

> They added in classic maps that felt and played just like the same old Halo 2 maps we had; except that they were just more fun to be able to sprint around in (and clamber in).

That’s highly subjective.

> I don’t see how everyone might lose. When it comes to movement mechanics there will either be - Sprint in the form of continuing to enhance the movement mechanics from where Halo 5 left off. In this scenario all anti-sprinters would lose, all pro-sprinters would win. - Sprint in the form of some split compromise. In this scenario all diehard antisprinters would lose, some diehard prosprinters would probably lose, but all other players who fall in the middle on this issue would be completely fine. - No sprint. In this scenario prosprinters would lose, many players who fall in the middle on this issue would lose, but antisprinters would win.

How’s this?

  • “Enhanced” movement mechanics return and/or are reiterated, with Sprint at the forefront. Sprint dissenters lose, Sprint fans win. - “Split” compromise gives everyone a little of what they want (with one group likely getting the lion’s share). One group is greatly dissatisfied, the other is generally satisfied but knows they could’ve had more. - “Classic” movement mechanics return and/or are reiterated, possibly with some additions from H4/5 returning (Thrusters are a good candidate). All “diehard” Sprint fans would lose, but perhaps the majority of Halo fans would enjoy the experience.

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> > > > > > > Let classic halo be classic halo, maybe spin offs could embrace the legacy more directly but let’s keep the enhanced movement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doesn’t seem very enhanced.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most of those antisprint propaganda Youtube clips get up to 50% as many dislikes as they do likes (Case in point)… That’s quite telling, in terms of how divisive and inconclusive they actually are.
> >
> > Simply because one is not factually better than the other. They are 2 different styles of play each having their own pros an cons. Pro Classic player will claim that the new system decreases gameplay fluidity and increases TTK, while Pro Halo 5 player will claim that the old system is boring and the new one allows for more styles of engagement. Taken from the point of view of one or the other the opposing movement is ‘factually’ worse since both styles play differently, it really is simply a preference at the end of the day.
> >
> > Thus we will have to wait and see if 343 decide to take it back to Halo’s roots, continue forwards with their advanced movements or create a hybrid of a sort.
>
> “Pro-Classic players will claim that the new system decreases gameplay fluidity and increased TTK”? It’s rather that most of the “new system” mechanics don’t aid in fluidity or provide more options (Sprint and Clamber reduce your options, Clamber and Slide diminish momentum); and some of those that do are too rewarding of simple tasks (Spartan Charge and Ground Pound). I think there’s a discussion to be had about the merits of Thrusters, Stabilizers, and maybe Slide.
>
> “Pro-Halo 5 players will claim that the old system is boring and the new one allows for more styles of engagement”? What was so boring about being able to move and shoot in different directions while moving at max speed? What new “styles of engagement” (I’d love a definition for this too) does the newer system make possible?
>
> Also, the “new system” is accounted for by decreased TTK, not increased.

The new system does provide more options. Slide, Clamber, Charge, Ground Pound, Stabilisers, Thrust, Sprint are all things not availiable in the original games, that said not all of these are useful in direct combat.
Fluidity in a game is definitely something to be strived for, but it cannot always be maintained. Clamber provides players with something to fall back on if they are just off the mark for a jump (I have already stated previously that Halo 5’s version of clamber is too forgiving) and allows access to elevated areas not normally accessible in exchange for being locked in an animation (quite short though). This movement isn’t made to be used in combat. Clamber cannot be made fluid, but it is a mechanic that has become almost just as popular as sprint, even 2016 Doom uses it.
Sprint is a bit of an oddball. It is a mechanic that makes sense on paper, a method to get from point A to B faster than normal. Yet in small, CQC maps is it useless as it is not a mechanic intended for arena style play but more for larger maps with longer stretches. Sprints necessity depends on the map design used in the Halo game; sprint wouldn’t work for many of the classic maps but works well in the new maps. Sprint would theoretically allow one to move to a point where the BMS would not be able to without appearing ridiculous however as some have noted Sprint in the new games isn’t really faster than the BMS of games like Halo 2. That’s why some argue for a system more similar to Reach’s armour abilities where Sprint would be a pickup or optional mechanic that would allow on to move faster than the BMS at the cost of not being able to shoot.
Slide is one of the least used Abilities are is not in the least necessary for gameplay however some have made use of it rather successfully at times.
Some consider the OG movement ‘boring’ because its literally only: Move, Crounch, Jump. They consider this far too limited for a modern game, with only CSGO still using such a system.
By “styles of engagement” I mean any new method one uses to confront an opponent whether it be: Ground pounding them, Charging them, Thrusting during a showdown, Sliding into a room of enemies, Sprinting to avoid damage, basically anything that could not be done in the previous games.

For the TTK I thought people on whole complained that things like Thrust and Sprint increased the duration of the fight compared to the older games. No?

Forgive me if someone’s already brought the argument to the table, but there’s been a lot posted since I was last able to get online productively. There’s obviously been dissension to advanced mobility, a push to return to “classic” gameplay, how that gameplay wouldn’t work on Halo 5 maps…

What are the arguments - aside from not liking it - for removal of advanced mobility? What are the clear benefits, the balancing of combat, etc? If pro-advanced mobility players are expected to form arguments and support beyond “I like it”, shouldn’t there be equal argument made for how Spartan Abilities have somehow “ruined” the game? It’s more than lining up comparison of Halo 5 to Halo 3; all that does is show that the game has changed.

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> > If the goal is simply to move quickly, moving slower is “beneath” moving faster. Besides, having one BMS that is “faster-than-classic” would fulfill the wish to move faster without being restricted to forward movement and maintaining full use of the “golden triangle”. Why isn’t that a better alternative/compromise?
>
> I appreciate where you’re coming from during the first part of this but your suggested alternative of completely removing sprint to revert Halo backwards is still worse than a compromise on this issue. Furthermore “Golden triangle “ is just a term- to that end I could equally argue that the “advanced movement system,” is better; just by the sheer naming convention. IMO there’s nothing truly golden about taking away the option to sprint.
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> > A game’s genre is defined by its mechanics, so I’d say that most people do think a lot about them when looking for games. People determine whether or not they think a game will be fun by looking at what they can do/how they can do things in said game.
>
> I think we’ll have to agree to disagree here. I truly do not believe your argument that “‘most people,” would be heavily influenced by the deeper intricacies of complex game mechanics. I believe that a very small portion of the more elite and competitive gaming community represents this portion of players and among them most of them already have developed their “favorite,” franchises and are therefore less likely to step out of their preferred comfort zone for gameplay mechanics. This doesn’t mean that they’re wrong with what they want either; but the casual gamer represents a larger crowd than the gaming elite so their desires for fun, realistic, immersive, or even lore-based games cannot simply be disregarded because you think you know what’s best for Halo instead of them. And please stop it with the dramatic comparisons to sprint. Sprint is just one thing, so it’s not fair to stretch this argument into oblique and dramatic comparisons as an attempt to argue against it.
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> > “Immersion” is deep mental involvement. This can and has been achieved with art styles and mechanics nothing like the real world. If someone can only be immersed by semi-realistic graphics and mechanics that mimic real life, perhaps a sci-fi FPS with regenerating health and super-soldiers that die with a punch to the back isn’t the best fit for them. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be a Halo fan/player, but that your given statements about fun and immersion don’t add up to you being one as opposed to preferring some other games on the market. What did you enjoy about the original trilogy? Did you ever get immersed while playing these games without Sprint?
>
> Fair, “immersion,” can be accomplished in a variety of ways. But like I said before, you’re being really dramatic by trying to insinuate that a desire for certain immersive qualities somehow is indicative that pro sprinters would want everything to be based on immersion. Deep down I think you even know this is untrue and even unfair, but it’s just the best option for you to argue back with. Sprinting is something that multiple modern FPS titles have had for over a decade and is not something crazy to wish for like backflips or any of those other dramatic comparisons to sprint and immersive qualities. That’s also offensive to hear anti sprinters suggest, through any line of reasoning, that if Halo fans desire sprint then Halo isn’t a good fit for them. First- most of us have been playing Halo since before sprint and second- sprint is not a gimmick- sprint has been in Halo for three straight AAA titles (hopefully going on four) so just because we’ve come to enjoy and appreciate Sprint in Halo doesn’t make us any less worthy than you to be fans of the franchise if we to desire for sprint to be in Halo Infinite.
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> > It’s been over a decade since there was a full Halo game without Sprint, yet wanting a “classic” Halo next is selfish?
>
> You’re twisting my words into something else and you know it. I was (and still fervently am) suggesting that your unwillingness to find a compromise the issue is an inherently selfish way to enter any debate. It would be different if there weren’t multiple compromises available in lieu of your “all or nothing,” argument. Pro sprinters, neutral fans, and even some anti sprinters have proposed many well-thought out and even canonically sound ways to do this. The split compromise idea doesn’t sound as terribly expensive, unreasonable, or time consuming as you make it appear. Perhaps deep down you’re afraid that when push comes to shove, many more players would prefer playlists with sprint if presented with the choice (and this would potentially even influence 343i to keep sprint in Halo even longer)? Or perhaps you just don’t care about the demographic that enjoys Halo with sprint and consider their desire for this gameplay mechanic as something unworthy against your own preference? Either way (and will all due respect) it seems exceedingly selfish to me that you’re unwilling to consider a true compromise on the issue. Your compromise is “oh you like sprint, play other games then,” which is offensive to me.
>
> > The compromises that have been suggested would split up the population, require more resources, and give nobody the game they wanted. Debating in the real world can’t always be solved with compromise. Yes, we’d all like for Halo to appeal to everyone, but that’s an unachievable ideal here in the real world.
>
> There’s zero evidence to support that a compromise would split up the population. Also the gaming developer is developing a new AAA title with years upon years at their expense, so your arguments about “time,” and “resources,” spent towards a compromise on movement mechanics really doesn’t make sense. No one can prove how much time or resources it would take to implement such a compromise, but this solution doesn’t seem excessive to anyone but the “all or nothing,” crowd. Also I never suggested that compromise would appeal to absolutely everyone. It’s certainly unobtainable and even unreasonable to think that all will be satisfied with the sprint decision. But a compromise potentially satisfies the largest group of gamers in this debate over movement mechanics.
>
> > How’s this?
> > - “Enhanced” movement mechanics return and/or are reiterated, with Sprint at the forefront. Sprint dissenters lose, Sprint fans win. - “Split” compromise gives everyone a little of what they want (with one group likely getting the lion’s share). One group is greatly dissatisfied, the other is generally satisfied but knows they could’ve had more. - “Classic” movement mechanics return and/or are reiterated, possibly with some additions from H4/5 returning (Thrusters are a good candidate). All “diehard” Sprint fans would lose, but perhaps the majority of Halo fans would enjoy the experience.
>
> Subjective but pretty similar to what I suggested… And to be honest my points about who will be satisfied about the sprint decision in Halo Infinite were indeed debatable… Either way I think you’ve fully doubled back on your previous post with respect to your “nobody wins,” claim regarding the eventual decision for sprint in Halo Infinite. My overarching point here was that some players inherently have to “win,” when the movement mechanics are inevitably announced.

TL;DR: In the end of the day I’d rather keep and/or enhance the current advanced movement system but I’m willing to accept a split compromise if it means more fans would be able to enjoy Halo Infinite.

I personally don’t mind the evolving game mechanics… but everything comes undone when you are so unprotected from behind (both in terms of game play and immersion). Faster movement combined with maps that have lots of shortcuts (including vertical routes) and you are left constantly muttering under your breath ‘where the yoink did that come from?’.

Give us shields that better protect us from behind, some way of seeing behind us (better radar or rear view mirror), and/or the ability to spin 180… and I think the game play would bed down nicely.

Shoulder charge would have to go… as would assassinations to some extent (or they would only come into play if your shields were popped).

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> > > > > > > > Let classic halo be classic halo, maybe spin offs could embrace the legacy more directly but let’s keep the enhanced movement.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Doesn’t seem very enhanced.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most of those antisprint propaganda Youtube clips get up to 50% as many dislikes as they do likes (Case in point)… That’s quite telling, in terms of how divisive and inconclusive they actually are.
>
> The new system does provide more options. Slide, Clamber, Charge, Ground Pound, Stabilisers, Thrust, Sprint are all things not availiable in the original games, that said not all of these are useful in direct combat.

I’m aware that (most of) those mechanics weren’t in the game prior to H5. I’m asking you what options they provide that weren’t available before.

  • What options does Slide provide that crouching doesn’t? - What options does Clamber provide that jumping doesn’t? - What options does Spartan Charge provide that running up and hitting your opponent doesn’t? - What options does Ground Pound provide that jumping down for an assassination/beatdown doesn’t? - What options does Sprint provide that moving forward doesn’t?

> Fluidity in a game is definitely something to be strived for, but it cannot always be maintained. Clamber provides players with something to fall back on if they are just off the mark for a jump (I have already stated previously that Halo 5’s version of clamber is too forgiving) and allows access to elevated areas not normally accessible in exchange for being locked in an animation (quite short though). This movement isn’t made to be used in combat. Clamber cannot be made fluid, but it is a mechanic that has become almost just as popular as sprint, even 2016 Doom uses it.

That’s not how Clamber is utilized in Halo 5, though. It isn’t a “fallback” but a primary means to reach ledges that are elevated to require the mechanic’s use. Its utility is artificial and its use requires not only that you forgo combat abilities, but that you also face the ledge you intend to clamber.

An argument from popularity is fallacious. What is popular is not inherently right or a good fit for everything/everyone. Clamber’s implementation was one of the few things I disliked about DOOM 2016.

> Sprints necessity depends on the map design used in the Halo game; sprint wouldn’t work for many of the classic maps but works well in the new maps. Sprint would theoretically allow one to move to a point where the BMS would not be able to without appearing ridiculous however as some have noted Sprint in the new games isn’t really faster than the BMS of games like Halo 2. That’s why some argue for a system more similar to Reach’s armour abilities where Sprint would be a pickup or optional mechanic that would allow on to move faster than the BMS at the cost of not being able to shoot.

Map design takes Sprint into account, not the other way around. There is no map design that necessitates Sprint; but Sprint necessitates a certain map design approach.

If it would seem ridiculous to move at a certain speed with your weapon up, how would having your weapon down make that speed any less ridiculous? At about what speed, relative to Halo’s BMS, do you think it starts getting ridiculous? Do you think being able to Sprint that quickly would be good?

> Some consider the OG movement ‘boring’ because its literally only: Move, Crounch, Jump. They consider this far too limited for a modern game, with only CSGO still using such a system.

What is more engaging about including faster forward movement without the ability to fight (Sprint)? Faster forward crouching (Slide)? Higher forward jumping without the ability to fight (Clamber)? Isn’t the combat supposed to be the really engaging part of gameplay?

Again, I’m not opposed to adding to the “move, jump, crouch” system. I see potential in Thrusters, particularly how they offer more horizontal control in midair, could be used to “opt-out” or redirect a gravity-lift or man-cannon, and provide a way to counter homing weapons like the Needler. Note that (unlike most of the “enhanced mobility” additions), it actually provides new ways to interact with the map and other players, can be used in any horizontal direction (rather than merely forward), and could easily be changed to maintain combat abilities.

> For the TTK I thought people on whole complained that things like Thrust and Sprint increased the duration of the fight compared to the older games. No?

I’d argue the opposite since mechanics that make it easier to flee (Sprint is the big culprit here) have been partially mitigated for by decreasing the kill-times of weapons and increasing their bullet magnetism. Since these shorter kill-times and increased bullet magnetism apply to all instances, its become easier to kill non-sprinting players as well and more so (since its easier to hit a slower target than a faster one).

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> - What options does Slide provide that crouching doesn’t? - What options does Clamber provide that jumping doesn’t? - What options does Spartan Charge provide that running up and hitting your opponent doesn’t? - What options does Ground Pound provide that jumping down for an assassination/beatdown doesn’t? - What options does Sprint provide that moving forward doesn’t?

  1. Forward movement with reduced presence (you’re easier to miss).
  2. Reaching areas just high enough to where a jump can’t reach.
  3. Increased damage and knockback.
  4. Target reticule, higher damage than standard melee, knockback.
  5. Higher rate of speed (used circumstantially rather than constantly).

A problem that I’m seeing here is that these are being treated in comparison to “the original games”. As though Halo: CE - 3 are the only true “Halo” games, and everything else is a spin-off. This is problematic in that each of those games has significant differences from one another, and don’t make a perfect “Original” to template off of. If one considers Halo Reach - Halo 5 as “spin-offs,” then rationally Halo 2 ought to be considered a “spin-off” of Halo: CE, and Halo 3 a “spin-off” of Halo 2.

I think it would be much more prudent to take each game as itself, rather than dividing between “original” and whatever else.

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> What are the arguments - aside from not liking it - for removal of advanced mobility? What are the clear benefits, the balancing of combat, etc? If pro-advanced mobility players are expected to form arguments and support beyond “I like it”, shouldn’t there be equal argument made for how Spartan Abilities have somehow “ruined” the game? It’s more than lining up comparison of Halo 5 to Halo 3; all that does is show that the game has changed.

  • No movement interrupts combat readiness. You are able to make every maneuver while engaged in a firefight and without facing the direction you’re moving. - Players can pursue/attack opponents at the same speed as their opponents can flee. With effort, players can retreat effectively without turning away from their opponents. - Maps are designed with more diverse/interesting layouts, rather than pocketed arenas connecting to one another through lanes/corridors.These are all surface-level benefits of not having Sprint.

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> What are the arguments - aside from not liking it - for removal of advanced mobility?

In every Halo game that sprint has been in, it has been an awkward mechanic compared to other franchises it’s been in. In Halo Reach it was an armor ability, and the most powerful one due to it’s near universal application, so all the others besides jetpack (and even then, it was awkward to have it on horizontal maps) felt underpowered save for specific occasions. In Halo 4, this was addressed by making it universal, but then we got the problem of pervasive cat-and-mouse and double melees. Now in Halo 5, shield regeneration had to be compensated to nerf cat-and-mouse situations and spartan charge was thrown in to counter run-up double melees.

I think one of the major reasons that sprint can’t work in Halo is simply because this franchise has overshields and therefore longer TTK’s. If it’s brought in with no compensation for it’s inclusion then we get Halo 4, and if it is compensated then we have to do like I brought up with Halo 5 and shift several previous mechanics to the point of complicating the gameplay.

I also have the issue with having to “run or gun” rather than “run and gun”. Or rather that the inclusion of sprint chops up the flow of the game into 2 different speed settings, thus making the game more complicated and twitch based rather than more simple and methodical.

And lastly, I would give sprint more leverage if the intended affect of speeding up the gameplay was indeed true, but you don’t have to look very far to see that there is little to no correlation between sprint and fast gameplay. If anything, gameplay speed comes more so from good map design than movement mechanics.

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> No movement interrupts combat readiness. You are able to make every maneuver while engaged in a firefight and without facing the direction you’re moving.

Reloading does. I even remember a medal that we used to get for killing someone while they were reloading. Neither can you jump and turn at the same time without use of either the Bumper Jumper layout or an Elite controller.

What are some examples as to how Advanced Mobility interrupts combat readiness?

> Players can pursue/attack opponents at the same speed as their opponents can flee. With effort, players can retreat effectively without turning away from their opponents.

As everyone has sprint, this can be done as well with it.

> Maps are designed with more diverse/interesting layouts, rather than pocketed arenas connecting to one another through lanes/corridors.

This one doesn’t seem to follow. Without Advanced Mobility, maps would be more diverse? Without sprint, there would be less lanes? This has never been the case. Maps have remained diverse (and with AM, it opens up verticle design as well as horizontal,) and there are plenty of maps in Halo: CE - 3 that had “lanes” that would accomodate sprint were it a feature back then. Remember Orbital? Elongation and Longest? Ivory Tower? Boarding Action? Burial Mounds? Colossus? Waterworks?

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> > 2535440283237581;447:
> > - What options does Slide provide that crouching doesn’t? - What options does Clamber provide that jumping doesn’t? - What options does Spartan Charge provide that running up and hitting your opponent doesn’t? - What options does Ground Pound provide that jumping down for an assassination/beatdown doesn’t? - What options does Sprint provide that moving forward doesn’t?
>
> 1. Forward movement with reduced presence (you’re easier to miss).
> 2. Reaching areas just high enough to where a jump can’t reach.
> 3. Increased damage and knockback.
> 4. Target reticule, higher damage than standard melee, knockback.
> 5. Higher rate of speed (used circumstantially rather than constantly).
>
> A problem that I’m seeing here is that these are being treated in comparison to “the original games”. As though Halo: CE - 3 are the only true “Halo” games, and everything else is a spin-off. This is problematic in that each of those games has significant differences from one another, and don’t make a perfect “Original” to template off of. If one considers Halo Reach - Halo 5 as “spin-offs,” then rationally Halo 2 ought to be considered a “spin-off” of Halo: CE, and Halo 3 a “spin-off” of Halo 2.
>
> I think it would be much more prudent to take each game as itself, rather than dividing between “original” and whatever else.

  • You can move while crouched with reduced presence. If you bring up the speed difference, I have to ask why it’s a good idea to give players the option to move quicker and have a smaller profile. - The areas are just out of jump reach so that players will use Clamber. The map was designed to facilitate the mechanic, not the other way around. There’s no reason the ledge can’t be lowered. - Not really a damage increase if both a standard melee and Spartan Charge leave the target with health but no shields (or dead, if performed from behind). The knockback would be very situational and there’s no reason it couldn’t be implemented as a stronger melee performed by holding down the melee button to charge it up. - So making it easier to perform and more effective? - Why is a circumstantial speed boost that limits the player to forward movement and disables weapon/grenade use a good option for players to have? How does it benefit gameplay?The whole “there’s no single classic game” argument is a red herring, whether intentionally or not. Take your pick, it doesn’t matter which of them you compare to when it comes to movement mechanics (unless you want to get into the bit about CE/2 having momentum-based melee). When it comes to the “enhanced movement” template, we’re talking about all of the mobility options available in H5.

> 2533274804813082;451:
> > 2535440283237581;449:
> > No movement interrupts combat readiness. You are able to make every maneuver while engaged in a firefight and without facing the direction you’re moving.
>
> Reloading does. I even remember a medal that we used to get for killing someone while they were reloading. Neither can you jump and turn at the same time without use of either the Bumper Jumper layout or an Elite controller.
>
> What are some examples as to how Advanced Mobility interrupts combat readiness?

Reloading is not a movement mechanic, nor does it affect/restrict movement.

You can absolutely jump and turn simultaneously even with the default control layout, especially if you use the “claw grip”. Even if it weren’t possible, that would be a fault of the control scheme.

Examples of how “advanced mobility” interrupts combat readiness? Seriously? Sprint and Clamber are blatantly built around doing so.

> > Players can pursue/attack opponents at the same speed as their opponents can flee. With effort, players can retreat effectively without turning away from their opponents.
>
> As everyone has sprint, this can be done as well with it.

Players can attack while moving at the same speed as their sprinting opponent? No.

> > Maps are designed with more diverse/interesting layouts, rather than pocketed arenas connecting to one another through lanes/corridors.
>
> This one doesn’t seem to follow. Without Advanced Mobility, maps would be more diverse? Without sprint, there would be less lanes? This has never been the case. Maps have remained diverse (and with AM, it opens up verticle design as well as horizontal,) and there are plenty of maps in Halo: CE - 3 that had “lanes” that would accomodate sprint were it a feature back then. Remember Orbital? Elongation and Longest? Ivory Tower? Boarding Action? Burial Mounds? Colossus? Waterworks?

That there are maps in the original trilogy that fit that description doesn’t invalidate what I said. Diversity doesn’t mean that there are no maps like that, but that there are many that aren’t. Meanwhile, about half of the maps in H5 were recycled/tweaked versions of the other half.

There are plenty of classic maps that have at least as much emphasis on verticality as H4/5.

> 2533274822366750;450:
> In every Halo game that sprint has been in, it has been an awkward mechanic compared to other franchises it’s been in.

Halo Reach, I’ll give you. That was somewhat awkwardly placed. Halo 4 and 5 operate like any other game with sprint, though. So I don’t think it can be said that sprint is an awkward mechanic in and of itself. In Halo 4, it’s the “BXR” issue of double-melees. In Halo 5, it’s Spartan Charge. So the issue then would be with those mechanics (although one is a mechanic, and the other an exploit.) A solution to fix that, I think, would be to disable melee during sprinting as well; make it for nothing but mobility.

> I think one of the major reasons that sprint can’t work in Halo is simply because this franchise has overshields and therefore longer TTK’s.

If you have an overshiled. Realistically the standard shield works about the same as CoD and Battlefield’s “Blood in the Eyes”. It’s just an addition to the healthbar that recharges when not in combat. A solution to that would be making the health bar itself smaller, or Spartans more succeptible to damage once the shield is stripped. Sprinting also now disables recharge when sprinting, so that’s a balance there. Sprinting affects shield regeneration, making the time to kill the same as it would be if they weren’t sprinting.

> I also have the issue with having to “run or gun” rather than “run and gun”.

Well, no you still have the option to run and gun. Just not sprint and gun. Semantics, I know, but I can’t think of a single game that has sprint - all genres included - that allows for weapon use while sprinting. It’s not a function unique to Halo, and it’s quite common. Neither does it make for a more twitch-based gameplay; I frequent the most “twitchiest” gametype possible, I think, and the only thing that contributes to that is no shields and precision weapons.

I wouldn’t even say that Sprint over-complicates the game. Armor Abilities and Equipment did that, and also allowed for abuse of the Equipment through hoarding. As everyone has Spartan Abilities, everyone has access to those functions that are mobility-based, and easy to impliment. They are quite simple, really.

> And lastly, I would give sprint more leverage if the intended affect of speeding up the gameplay was indeed true,

And it does. As with all things, when used strategically. Map Design does play a part in this, but removing sprint would not solve that issue. A good map is a good map, whatever player traits may be present. And while sprint allows for players to get away from danger (drawing out gameplay,) it also allows players to sprint ahead and ambush other players (as I mentioned before), which does speed up the gameplay.

But a question stemming from that; why must the gameplay be sped up? How would the removal of sprint ensure this, which is dubious as necessary anyways? I mean, we’ve all got things to do and places to be, I know, but I know for myself I’m here to play a game, not rush through it. How would the removal of sprint address any of these issues?

[deleted]

The Ragin Pagan

”Halo 4 and 5 operate like any other game with sprint, though. So I don’t think it can be said that sprint is an awkward mechanic in and of itself”

quoted from your last response towards someone else as an FYI (the most recent one as I’m typing this).

Why do you not see it different from other games when it comes to sprint? What other game PUNISHES you for sprinting? If you don’t hit max speed when taking off in H5, it knocks you oug of the animation. Furthermore your shields don’t recharge when using sprint. So how is halo 5 no different? What other games punish you like this? I can give you H4 as it’s not punishing you (and most games with sprint have a stamina bar I.E. you tire out so no sorint after) but H5? No, furthermore those punishments to H5s sprint were added for a reason, what would your assumption be on why that is?

> 2533274804813082;454:
> > 2533274822366750;450:
> >
>
> Halo Reach, I’ll give you. That was somewhat awkwardly placed. Halo 4 and 5 operate like any other game with sprint, though. So I don’t think it can be said that sprint is an awkward mechanic in and of itself. In Halo 4, it’s the “BXR” issue of double-melees. In Halo 5, it’s Spartan Charge. So the issue then would be with those mechanics (although one is a mechanic, and the other an exploit.) A solution to fix that, I think, would be to disable melee during sprinting as well; make it for nothing but mobility.

If you disable melee, then you just complicate the game even more. That was a major point of my argument: when a mechanic needs to shut down pre-existing mechanics in order to function properly with the rest of the game, it complicates the game to an unnecessary degree.

> 2533274804813082;454:
> If you have an overshiled. Realistically the standard shield works about the same as CoD and Battlefield’s “Blood in the Eyes”. It’s just an addition to the healthbar that recharges when not in combat. A solution to that would be making the health bar itself smaller, or Spartans more succeptible to damage once the shield is stripped. Sprinting also now disables recharge when sprinting, so that’s a balance there. Sprinting affects shield regeneration, making the time to kill the same as it would be if they weren’t sprinting.

I should have said shields, but whatever. But no, they don’t function as they do in other games at all. COD, Battlefield, Titanfall etc. all have blatantly shorter TTK’s, and that is in large part due to the fact they their mechanics and sandboxes don’t have to take energy shields into consideration.

> 2533274804813082;454:
> Well, no you still have the option to run and gun. Just not sprint and gun. Semantics, I know, but I can’t think of a single game that has sprint - all genres included - that allows for weapon use while sprinting. It’s not a function unique to Halo, and it’s quite common. Neither does it make for a more twitch-based gameplay; I frequent the most “twitchiest” gametype possible, I think, and the only thing that contributes to that is no shields and precision weapons.
>
> I wouldn’t even say that Sprint over-complicates the game. Armor Abilities and Equipment did that, and also allowed for abuse of the Equipment through hoarding. As everyone has Spartan Abilities, everyone has access to those functions that are mobility-based, and easy to impliment. They are quite simple, really.

And that’s the precise problem I have with it, it separates mobility and utility. In the trilogy, both of those aspects existed on the same plane as each other, in the new games they are separate, and I feel that gameplay that has them both on the same plane promotes a more relaxed and methodical game flow.

> 2533274804813082;454:
> And it does. As with all things, when used strategically. Map Design does play a part in this, but removing sprint would not solve that issue. A good map is a good map, whatever player traits may be present. And while sprint allows for players to get away from danger (drawing out gameplay,) it also allows players to sprint ahead and ambush other players (as I mentioned before), which does speed up the gameplay.
>
> But a question stemming from that; why must the gameplay be sped up? How would the removal of sprint ensure this, which is dubious as necessary anyways? I mean, we’ve all got things to do and places to be, I know, but I know for myself I’m here to play a game, not rush through it. How would the removal of sprint address any of these issues?

Except if you watched a bit of the video that I linked, then you would see that it doesn’t increase the pace at all. There is little to no correlation between sprint and pacing. And I’m not arguing that the game must be faster, but that the claim that it does is false and therefore the claim that removing it would slow the game down is as well.

> 2535440283237581;452:
> - You can move while crouched with reduced presence. If you bring up the speed difference, I have to ask why it’s a good idea to give players the option to move quicker and have a smaller profile. - The areas are just out of jump reach so that players will use Clamber. The map was designed to facilitate the mechanic, not the other way around. There’s no reason the ledge can’t be lowered. - Not really a damage increase if both a standard melee and Spartan Charge leave the target with health but no shields (or dead, if performed from behind). The knockback would be very situational and there’s no reason it couldn’t be implemented as a stronger melee performed by holding down the melee button to charge it up. - So making it easier to perform and more effective? - Why is a circumstantial speed boost that limits the player to forward movement and disables weapon/grenade use a good option for players to have? How does it benefit gameplay?

  • The two are nowhere near the same. Sliding is more rapid, crouching and moving obviously less so. Moving slower also makes you more of a target, so this isn’t a replacement at all. Sliding is also very temporary, lasting no more than a few seconds. It can be used to ambush an opponent while reducing the threat to yourself (and it’s not always effective), or it can be used to quickly dodge under a rocket. - Yes, gaps can be shortened and ledges lowered so that clamber is made useless. The question is why shoudl they be? What is the negative to clambering so that it should be removed? - Damage may have been nerfed, but it remains an attack while sprinting, allowing some offense without slowing down. There’s also still the knockback, but if it’s to be replaced by a “longer hold down for charge-up” (assuming it’s not from behind, as that’s the trigger for assassinations,) then that slows down the gameplay even more than sprinting does. So why change it? - Easier to perform and more effective than trying to drop down for an assassination? Yes. Much. - I - and others - have given many examples in argument for sprint. It’s now time to hear about why it should be removed, beyond “it’s not classic”.

[deleted]

> > If the goal is simply to move quickly, moving slower is “beneath” moving faster. Besides, having one BMS that is “faster-than-classic” would fulfill the wish to move faster without being restricted to forward movement and maintaining full use of the “golden triangle”. Why isn’t that a better alternative/compromise?
>
> I appreciate where you’re coming from during the first part of this but your suggested alternative of completely removing sprint to revert Halo backwards is still worse than a compromise on this issue.

Why? I’ve repeatedly asked you why a higher BMS is not satisfactory to you, but you’ve avoided answering the question at every turn.

> Furthermore “Golden triangle “ is just a term- to that end I could equally argue that the “advanced movement system,” is better; just by the sheer naming convention. IMO there’s nothing truly golden about taking away the option to sprint.

What? The “golden triangle” I referred to is guns, grenades, and melee. I don’t know what you’re even trying to say here except maybe “My preferred movement style is better than yours because it has a cooler-sounding name”?

> > A game’s genre is defined by its mechanics, so I’d say that most people do think a lot about them when looking for games. People determine whether or not they think a game will be fun by looking at what they can do/how they can do things in said game.
>
> I think we’ll have to agree to disagree here. I truly do not believe your argument that “‘most people,” would be heavily influenced by the deeper intricacies of complex game mechanics.

I never implied that the average gamer would base his/her decision to purchase a game based on “deeper intricacies” of mechanics. It seems like your building strawmen of my points and refuting those.

> I believe that a very small portion of the more elite and competitive gaming community represents this portion of players and among them most of them already have developed their “favorite,” franchises and are therefore less likely to step out of their preferred comfort zone for gameplay mechanics.

For whatever it’s worth, your assumption is wrong when it comes to me. Most of the games that I play happen to have ADS and Sprint (Titanfall 2 and R6: Siege for instance). Halo’s different, though. You’ve argued about the gaming community’s expectations in this thread, right? Well, when I buy a Halo game I expect it to play like a Halo game.

> And please stop it with the dramatic comparisons to sprint. Sprint is just one thing, so it’s not fair to stretch this argument into oblique and dramatic comparisons as an attempt to argue against it.

You’re the one who said that “completely removing sprint to revert Halo backwards is still worse than a compromise” on the issue of enhanced mobility. What did I say that was comparably “dramatic” to that? For someone who says “Sprint is just one thing”, it seems like there’s a double-standard in play.

> Fair, “immersion,” can be accomplished in a variety of ways. But like I said before, you’re being really dramatic by trying to insinuate that a desire for certain immersive qualities somehow is indicative that pro sprinters would want everything to be based on immersion. Deep down I think you even know this is untrue and even unfair, but it’s just the best option for you to argue back with.

I asked you what you enjoyed about CE-3. I was searching for a better understanding of what you do want/value from a Halo experience. Rather than answer, you act like I said “You only want realism? Play something else!”. I didn’t mention backflips or anything of the sort.

I’m sensing some projection here, too.

> > It’s been over a decade since there was a full Halo game without Sprint, yet wanting a “classic” Halo next is selfish?
>
> You’re twisting my words into something else and you know it. I was (and still fervently am) suggesting that your unwillingness to find a compromise the issue is an inherently selfish way to enter any debate. It would be different if there weren’t multiple compromises available in lieu of your “all or nothing,” argument.

How did I twist your words?

I’ve given reasons as to why I don’t support the kind of compromise that you’re advocating. You haven’t done the same for mine, only asserted that its worse.

> The split compromise idea doesn’t sound as terribly expensive, unreasonable, or time consuming as you make it appear. Perhaps deep down you’re afraid that when push comes to shove, many more players would prefer playlists with sprint if presented with the choice (and this would potentially even influence 343i to keep sprint in Halo even longer)? Or perhaps you just don’t care about the demographic that enjoys Halo with sprint and consider their desire for this gameplay mechanic as something unworthy against your own preference?

That’s easy for you to say when you have no idea of what it entails. Also, definitely sensing the projection here.

> There’s zero evidence to support that a compromise would split up the population.

Basic math. The more playlists there are, the more the population is divided. The “split compromise” would require more playlists. I mean honestly, the “split” is in the name.

> Subjective but pretty similar to what I suggested… And to be honest my points about who will be satisfied about the sprint decision in Halo Infinite were indeed debatable… Either way I think you’ve fully doubled back on your previous post with respect to your “nobody wins,” claim regarding the eventual decision for sprint in Halo Infinite. My overarching point here was that some players inherently have to “win,” when the movement mechanics are inevitably announced.

No, I more or less mirrored your suggestion to illustrate how your approach was biased in favor of your preferences. Also, my earlier comment didn’t say that “everyone loses”. I said:

> Acknowledging that a call for compromise is in good spirit, it still stands that there will be someone getting the short end of the stick even if it’s both crowds.