The return of classic movement mechanics?

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> > I stand corrected nonetheless, holding a top 1-3 placement throughout the year (3 years really) isn’t bad for Halo 3 in the slightest and it was somehow still the #1 most active game overall for that year so… nothing really changes.
>
> Yeah but do you not understand this is a function of sales and nothing more? I stand corrected and nothing really changes. Right…

Halo sales declined because reach was not good, NOT because halo 3 failed.

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> CS:GO knife speed is just a simple example of how players move around the map faster while sacrificing weapon readiness. Sure, its not the same as sprint, but its the idea that CS:GO is brought up as a sprintless game and yet, it has a mechanic that functions very similar to how sprint functions in Halo 5.

Simiilar =/= the same. Personally I’ve never heard anyone make the argument that “well we need some sort of speed boost mechanic to remain popular” its “we need sprint to remain popular.” Overwatch has sprint and other speed boosting mechanics too. The point still stands that you clearly don’t need sprint to be successful.

> Sprint in Halo 5 adds momentum to movement abilities. Here is an exampleMy argument is the decline started immediately after Halo 3, and therefore you should be looking at what Halo 3 did wrong to “start” this decline. In a sense, im saying that movement abilities and loadouts and all the stuff that Reach/Halo 4/Halo 5 have done have less of an impact on the player base than lots of Halo fans actually think.

Why we look at what Halo 3 did wrong rather than Reach? I agree the decline started after Halo 3, specifically when Reach was released so we have some actual point of comparison.

Its nonsensical to say Halo 3 started the decline when no other Halo game has reached the same heights. Unless you consider the “decline” to begin as soon as population starts to drop in which case I guess Halo 3 “declined” after launch day like most games do. I’m not making the claim that movement mechanics or any one aspect was the primary cause, but I will point out that the downward curve started after there were more radical changes to Halo’s core design the things have only gotten worse from there.

> Halo and CoD didnt swap places. CoD consistently beat Halo week after week, even though Halo 3s launch should have padded those numbers PAST unbeatable.
>
> Casual gamers are a market you need to grab to push your game past “X” number of sales. Its what Halo used to have, and this forum/community seems to think we need it again for the games to be considered “successful”

I guess staying in the top 3(mostly 2nd place) and still being capable of taking the top spot 2 years after launch doesn’t count. CoD4 being more popular than Halo 3 overall doesn’t negate Halo 3’s own success or mean that CoD had a monopoly on the “casual gamer.” Once again, the “casual gamers” are not single minded consumers who only play what is most popular at the time. There are casual gamers who like Halo 3, there are casual gamers who liked CoD4, there are casual gamers who liked both, there are casual gamers who didn’t like either of them. There is no singular pool of “casual” players to poach.

Frankly I don’t really care about whether a hypothetical classic Halo brings back Halo 3 levels of success. I only bring it up when folks try to use the popularity as a reason to justify sprint while trying to use every possible excuse to explain away why the most popular Halo game actually wouldn’ bet generally representative of what most Halo fans want out of a Halo game.

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> > 2533274848599184;4180:
> > > 2533275010844883;4178:
> > > I stand corrected nonetheless, holding a top 1-3 placement throughout the year (3 years really) isn’t bad for Halo 3 in the slightest and it was somehow still the #1 most active game overall for that year so… nothing really changes.
> >
> > Yeah but do you not understand this is a function of sales and nothing more? I stand corrected and nothing really changes. Right…
>
> Halo sales declined because reach was not good, NOT because halo 3 failed.

Both games sold 3.3 million copies at launch. One happened to get an extra 5 million more over the next 3 months. How and why that happened are up for debate. But they both launched successfully.

There is no real proof that the changes to Halo’s mechanics are what caused it to falter in popularity.

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> > 2533274848599184;4179:
> > CS:GO knife speed is just a simple example of how players move around the map faster while sacrificing weapon readiness. Sure, its not the same as sprint, but its the idea that CS:GO is brought up as a sprintless game and yet, it has a mechanic that functions very similar to how sprint functions in Halo 5.
>
> Simiilar =/= the same. Personally I’ve never heard anyone make the argument that “well we need some sort of speed boost mechanic to remain popular” its “we need sprint to remain popular.” Overwatch has sprint and other speed boosting mechanics too. The point still stands that you clearly don’t need sprint to be successful.
>
>
> > Sprint in Halo 5 adds momentum to movement abilities. Here is an exampleMy argument is the decline started immediately after Halo 3, and therefore you should be looking at what Halo 3 did wrong to “start” this decline. In a sense, im saying that movement abilities and loadouts and all the stuff that Reach/Halo 4/Halo 5 have done have less of an impact on the player base than lots of Halo fans actually think.
>
> Why we look at what Halo 3 did wrong rather than Reach? I agree the decline started after Halo 3, specifically when Reach was released so we have some actual point of comparison.
>
> Its nonsensical to say Halo 3 started the decline when no other Halo game has reached the same heights. Unless you consider the “decline” to begin as soon as population starts to drop in which case I guess Halo 3 “declined” after launch day like most games do. I’m not making the claim that movement mechanics or any one aspect was the primary cause, but I will point out that the downward curve started after there were more radical changes to Halo’s core design the things have only gotten worse from there.
>
>
> > Halo and CoD didnt swap places. CoD consistently beat Halo week after week, even though Halo 3s launch should have padded those numbers PAST unbeatable.
> >
> > Casual gamers are a market you need to grab to push your game past “X” number of sales. Its what Halo used to have, and this forum/community seems to think we need it again for the games to be considered “successful”
>
> I guess staying in the top 3(mostly 2nd place) and still being capable of taking the top spot 2 years after launch doesn’t count. CoD4 being more popular than Halo 3 overall doesn’t negate Halo 3’s own success or mean that CoD had a monopoly on the “casual gamer.” Once again, the “casual gamers” are not single minded consumers who only play what is most popular at the time. There are casual gamers who like Halo 3, there are casual gamers who liked CoD4, there are casual gamers who liked both, there are casual gamers who didn’t like either of them. There is no singular pool of “casual” players to poach.
>
> Frankly I don’t really care about whether a hypothetical classic Halo brings back Halo 3 levels of success. I only bring it up when folks try to use the popularity as a reason to justify sprint while trying to use every possible excuse to explain away why the most popular Halo game actually wouldn’ bet generally representative of what most Halo fans want out of a Halo game.

I dont neccesarily care about sprint. To me, it doesnt change much of how I play online. I just dont think there is enough proof to justify the claim that changing mechanics are what caused people to lose interest in Halo. The point I’m trying to make is there are merits to both sides of the argument, and seeing as there are a lot of pro-sprinters on the forums for this game, you must realize there are lots of passionate fans who like it.

In regards to CoD/Halo, yes I regard it as a failure. Similar to the Golden State Warriors, once they had Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green, anything except a championship is a failure. Halo being able to compete with CoD was great, but should a game that sold 8 MILLION copies before the Weekly Charts I mentioned even started actually struggle to compete with weekly numbers from a relative newcomer like CoD? Success is relative. Halo 3 was the “highest gross of an entertainment product within 24 hours of its release”, beating the previous record holder… Halo 2. Yet within 3 months, it was being played less than Call of Duty 4, a new game. That should tell you something about its longevity.

All of this is to frame the “success” of Halo Reach, Halo 4, Halo 5. Is Halo 5 a success because it sold 5 million copies? Is it a failure because it didnt retain its playerbase that well? There is context to all these numbers, and using Halo 3 as a benchmark isnt setting a fair standard

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> > 2533274819446242;4183:
> > > 2533274848599184;4179:
> > > CS:GO knife speed is just a simple example of how players move around the map faster while sacrificing weapon readiness. Sure, its not the same as sprint, but its the idea that CS:GO is brought up as a sprintless game and yet, it has a mechanic that functions very similar to how sprint functions in Halo 5.
> >
> > Simiilar =/= the same. Personally I’ve never heard anyone make the argument that “well we need some sort of speed boost mechanic to remain popular” its “we need sprint to remain popular.” Overwatch has sprint and other speed boosting mechanics too. The point still stands that you clearly don’t need sprint to be successful.
> >
> >
> > > Sprint in Halo 5 adds momentum to movement abilities. Here is an exampleMy argument is the decline started immediately after Halo 3, and therefore you should be looking at what Halo 3 did wrong to “start” this decline. In a sense, im saying that movement abilities and loadouts and all the stuff that Reach/Halo 4/Halo 5 have done have less of an impact on the player base than lots of Halo fans actually think.
> >
> > Why we look at what Halo 3 did wrong rather than Reach? I agree the decline started after Halo 3, specifically when Reach was released so we have some actual point of comparison.
> >
> > Its nonsensical to say Halo 3 started the decline when no other Halo game has reached the same heights. Unless you consider the “decline” to begin as soon as population starts to drop in which case I guess Halo 3 “declined” after launch day like most games do. I’m not making the claim that movement mechanics or any one aspect was the primary cause, but I will point out that the downward curve started after there were more radical changes to Halo’s core design the things have only gotten worse from there.
> >
> >
> > > Halo and CoD didnt swap places. CoD consistently beat Halo week after week, even though Halo 3s launch should have padded those numbers PAST unbeatable.
> > >
> > > Casual gamers are a market you need to grab to push your game past “X” number of sales. Its what Halo used to have, and this forum/community seems to think we need it again for the games to be considered “successful”
> >
> > I guess staying in the top 3(mostly 2nd place) and still being capable of taking the top spot 2 years after launch doesn’t count. CoD4 being more popular than Halo 3 overall doesn’t negate Halo 3’s own success or mean that CoD had a monopoly on the “casual gamer.” Once again, the “casual gamers” are not single minded consumers who only play what is most popular at the time. There are casual gamers who like Halo 3, there are casual gamers who liked CoD4, there are casual gamers who liked both, there are casual gamers who didn’t like either of them. There is no singular pool of “casual” players to poach.
> >
> > Frankly I don’t really care about whether a hypothetical classic Halo brings back Halo 3 levels of success. I only bring it up when folks try to use the popularity as a reason to justify sprint while trying to use every possible excuse to explain away why the most popular Halo game actually wouldn’ bet generally representative of what most Halo fans want out of a Halo game.
>
> I dont neccesarily care about sprint. To me, it doesnt change much of how I play online. I just dont think there is enough proof to justify the claim that changing mechanics are what caused people to lose interest in Halo. The point I’m trying to make is there are merits to both sides of the argument, and seeing as there are a lot of pro-sprinters on the forums for this game, you must realize there are lots of passionate fans who like it.
>
> In regards to CoD/Halo, yes I regard it as a failure. Similar to the Golden State Warriors, once they had Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green, anything except a championship is a failure. Halo being able to compete with CoD was great, but should a game that sold 8 MILLION copies before the Weekly Charts I mentioned even started actually struggle to compete with weekly numbers from a relative newcomer like CoD? Success is relative. Halo 3 was the “highest gross of an entertainment product within 24 hours of its release”, beating the previous record holder… Halo 2. Yet within 3 months, it was being played less than Call of Duty 4, a new game. That should tell you something about its longevity.
>
> All of this is to frame the “success” of Halo Reach, Halo 4, Halo 5. Is Halo 5 a success because it sold 5 million copies? Is it a failure because it didnt retain its playerbase that well? There is context to all these numbers, and using Halo 3 as a benchmark isnt setting a fair standard

Dude you have the worst understanding of statistics and manipulate them to support your argument. To say that halo 3 and reach both sold 3.3 million at launch already shows you want the data to support what you say. Halo 3 sold OVER 3.3 million at launch (first month) *BECAUSE IT DID THAT 3.3 IN HALF OF REACHES TIME in comparison to reachs 3.3. Thats If reach was actually good, it would have sold more than 3.3 in the first month. All halo games are going to have good sales record due to the name alone, but they have to be good to come close to what halo 3 did. And this thing you’re trying to do with COD. It was a new game. Players are going to get off old games to play new ones, but guess what halo 3 still strongly put numbers above COD so your argument is null and void. All your halo 3 vs cod argument shows is that halo players bought COD and played both…

> This has no basis on the argument besides the fact that CoD consistently changes and cuts features and retains sales. Its not about what you prefer, its about what works.

OK but some CODs clearly work better than others, it’s not as if they are all equal or that each one is considerably better than the next. Cuts and changes matter, and the opinions centered around different CODs clearly shows this.

> Youre missing my point. I mentioned that Halo’s “core gameplay” is subjective. All Im trying to point out is how so many different Halo games have done away with some aspects that the community holds as “core gameplay”.

And I’m arguing that those changes were mostly bad and I would also argue that certain longstanding features have proved to be more successful than others.

> I dont also agree with the Golden Triangle as a concept, and apparently neither does Bungie, as they went ahead and made Destiny.

Well the vast majority of the Halo community seems to agree that the Golden Triangle is good, and Destiny wasn’t exactly as beloved or game changing as Halo now was it.

> I dont want to touch on this again, but sales and retained players as singular figures are meaningless without context. In my opinion, Halo’s success, both in retaining players and overall sales, had more to do with the lack of solid FPS competition and the sheer number of quality games available right now. Its all about how people wanted to spend their time.

Your absurd claim that Halo 3 had no competition has been thoroughly disproven, and it also fails to take into account that even huge fans of a franchise like Halo will still play other FPSs, I and pretty much everybody I knew played both Halo 3 and COD 4. I definitely went through phases where I played one more than the other, but I was a huge fan of both.

> In regards to Doom, yes I see that it can work, but the sales numbers show otherwise. If you want the Halo population to be like Doom’s, power to you. Id prefer it be larger. Ill say the numbers again. 2 million units on PC after 1 year, Halo 5 does 5 million in 3 months.

Oh my gosh, I do not want Halo’s sales to be lower, for the last time, I brough up Doom to show that a sprintless game can succeed even today and once again that 2 million number is only the total if you dishonestly ignore the total sales of Doom on all platforms. Doom had no multiplayer, and came from a franchise that hadn’t had a sequal for over a decade, so it’s no surprise that it didn’t attract as many people, but it’s gameplay was certainly appealing.

> Having the knife out does restrict your ability to use weapons

No it doesn’t, a knife is a weapon, it’s a weapon that gives you a speed boost when you hold it, but it doesn’t lock you in an animation, or keep you from using the weapon that you hold so it isn’t sprint.

> You can move through the map faster, but you cannot shoot back. Applies to both sprint and knife speed.

The only reason you can’t shoot is because it’s a knife, and knives can’t shoot. You know what else can’t shoot, a gravity hammer and an energy sword, and in Halo Reach, 4, and 5 you have to go into an animation to sprint with both of those weapons. An increase in base movement speed with a certain weapon and sprint are not the same.

> The part about the turret makes it seem like your being disingenuous, but I can give you benefit of the doubt.

It’s not disingenuous in any way, both Halo 3 and CS:GO have weapons which change your movement speed whilst letting you use them without going into an animation which stops you.

> Overwatch is not a traditional FPS. If you want to argue that people buy Overwatch to get their traditional shooter fix in the vein of Call of Duty and Battlefield, then I just happen to disagree with you. Unfortunately, there is no way to solve this argument. A hero shooter with MOBA roles doesnt sound like something someone sits down and considers when deciding what to buy between Call of Duty and Battlefield

That’s just your personal preference, WerepyreND already told you that he used it to get his FPS fix.

The fact that they have to punish you for using a mechanic they give you from the start just to keep the game balanced says enough. That would be like if they gave us the assault rifle and said, “Hey, we know you as you reload but you actually can’t reload while you’re fighting.” lol what?

Sprint is a mechanic that has just as much an impact as any other. Just like Jumping is a mechanic. So are health packs etc… Sprint as a mechanic poorly affects everything else. Plasma weapons are now lasers like everything else. If you go back to the older Halos the plasma weapons are clearly different, slower, and also more fun to fight against because you can avoid them. Seriously go back to Halo 3 play a campaign level and see how you can move out of the way, jump, crouch. Moves that may be simpler but you can do them all at once and you know what? With the older games limited movement you can actually dodge better than Halo 5. Not all the weapons are the same laser, just with a different coat of paint.

It changes encounters greatly. Without sprint, the game is more of a chess/strategy style game. With sprint the game turns into a game of checkers. While there is some strategy it’s more of a battle of attrition, less complicated, still fun but clearly there’s a reason Chess is one of the most popular games of all time. Not that checkers isn’t but clearly one is more praised.

It’s about using the map to your benefit. Weapons, power weapons, map advantages. Vehicles are not only in the game but are useful. In addition to all that, without sprint when you brawl with an enemy these are longer, deeper encounters. Strafing is effective, you can jump over your opponent etc… With sprint, encounters are merely who shot first. 2v1’s while possible are less likely. Without sprint, 1v4’s while tough can be done if you are skilled enough. Yes, I’m glad you got a 1v4 in Halo 5, as have I. The problem isn’t the skill gap it’s that you now have a limit to how much you can fight. In Halo 3, you fight, win an encounter and your shields are already set to recharge to fight another day. In Halo 5, you fight, you win, oh now I have to run across a vast emptiness that is present in most Halo 5 maps JUST to start to recharging my shields. I’m dead because the dude I just killed can run up to me damn near before my shields are full recharged. While somehow being faster the game is a lot more stop and start.
Oh and also the whole “Spartans should be able to run” I would argue that they are running at the fastest speed they can while also having control over their weapon.

Halo Legends: The Package shows us exactly what’s going on.

Also in the book Halo: First strike Fred’s suit gets damaged and he mentions how he won’t be able to run until he gets it fixed. Unlikely that that is why we aren’t halo 5 running in the classic halo but it would be a way for Halo: Infinite, lore wise, is since chief will mostly likely be stuck on the ring, he could have damaged his suit and now he can’t run. I would prefer them to take it out regardless.

but claiming lore reasons for sprint is poor argumentation and using it as a reason as why they should take it out or any mechanic really. Mechanics totally can be inspired by lore and that’s good but not at the sake of gameplay. It doesn’t matter if I’m a spartan or not. Sprint is a poor mechanic. Should we remove Halo 1-Reach MP because they aren’t war games on the infinity and they didn’t have simulations before infinity. By lore reasons, the earlier MP’s shouldn’t exist. If we also went by lore, plasma weapons would practically be an instakill. The Wraiths should be 1000x more devastating. I am a lore fanatic, but come on people. Using lore for justification as to why we should sprint is just a poor argument.

I love every Halo. Every Halo is a good game but not all of them are good Halo games.

Even if there is no tangible evidence that sprint is the cause for Halo’s downfall there is one thing to note. After they added sprint for everyone, the game IS A DIFFERENT PLAY-STYLE. There’s a reason the games declined. The game play has changed. That gameplay is not what millions of people bought Halo 3 for. Let’s do a thought experiment. If Halo 5 was released under a different name and lore but still the same gameplay, People would rightfully believe that this is a new game. Some could see how it might be inspired by Halo but most would see it as it’s own game that isn’t part of a series. If you are at this point with your game you can call yourself Halo but are you really? This isn’t a no true Scotsman fallacy I’m pulling on you. 343i/Microsoft owns Halo. whatever they do with it, that is what Halo now is. When people say that the new Halo’s aren’t halo, they aren’t arguing whether it is technically still Halo. They are telling you that the essence of Halo, what Halo REALLY is, is not Halo 4 and 5. There’s a reason that Halo: Infinite oozes Halo., Halo: Infinite is really capturing the essence of Halo, at least until we see the gameplay. Remember that most designers who wanted sprint are gone and that the of the main idea guys for Halo: Infinite at 343i is a huge Halo CE Fan.

Halo Wars gets away with this because it don’t claim to be the next iteration of the main series. Halo didn’t evolve it changed. It changed to be like Cod. Halo 4 is a cod clone through and through. Not that I don’t love Halo 4 and hit max rank. If Halo were to actually evolve it needs to drop sprint and continue what Halo 3 started to do. Expand equipment. Hell you could bring back amour abilities and spartan abilities and even sprint just make it a pick up instead of everyone having it. How cool would it be to have Hologram, sprint, and stabilize in the sandbox and either consumables like invisibility or just like weapons and once you have it it’s yours till you die.

There’s a reason people are buying Halo 3 10+ years later, and it isn’t because of sprint.

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> I dont neccesarily care about sprint. To me, it doesnt change much of how I play online. I just dont think there is enough proof to justify the claim that changing mechanics are what caused people to lose interest in Halo. The point I’m trying to make is there are merits to both sides of the argument, and seeing as there are a lot of pro-sprinters on the forums for this game, you must realize there are lots of passionate fans who like it.

For someone who doesn’t care about sprint you are currently spending a lot of time going “well actually” to counterpoints against the argument that “Halo needs sprint to be successful”

I’m well aware that there are a contingent of players who like sprint. I’m perfectly fine with them saying so and explaining why they like sprint. I just get annoyed when they try to cloak their preferences as simply being “reasonable.”
“Actually you just want the same Halo game forever”
“Actually the most popular game in the series wasn’t really popular”

> In regards to CoD/Halo, yes I regard it as a failure. Similar to the Golden State Warriors, once they had Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green, anything except a championship is a failure. Halo being able to compete with CoD was great, but should a game that sold 8 MILLION copies before the Weekly Charts I mentioned even started actually struggle to compete with weekly numbers from a relative newcomer like CoD? Success is relative. Halo 3 was the “highest gross of an entertainment product within 24 hours of its release”, beating the previous record holder… Halo 2. Yet within 3 months, it was being played less than Call of Duty 4, a new game. That should tell you something about its longevity.

The game industry isn’t a competitive sports league. And again CoD is not a newcomer, it was already a well known and popular brand that launched the 360, you just like sticking your head in the sand and pretend that “competition” didn’t exist before CoD4. Infinity Ward made a great new game that a lot of folks enjoyed on its own merits and found their own success.

CoD4 was a phenomenal trend-setting game that created the “standard” you seem to believe exists. It was the “competition” that Halo apparently didn’t have before and yet Halo 3 still set records for the franchise that have not been beaten since for both sales or the playerbase. Were those record setting Halo players living under a rock so they just didn’t get the memo that Halo was outdated now? You keep saying Halo didn’t have any “competition” prior to CoD 4’s release but it took 3 years and a completely new Halo game to fully begin the standard trend.

This is just more gaslighting. We have a best selling game in a franchise with the largest active population right in front of us but you’d rather make us believe that it wasn’t really successful and was actually the beginning of the decline.

> All of this is to frame the “success” of Halo Reach, Halo 4, Halo 5. Is Halo 5 a success because it sold 5 million copies? Is it a failure because it didnt retain its playerbase that well? There is context to all these numbers, and using Halo 3 as a benchmark isnt setting a fair standard

Slowing sales and a declining playerbase are a sign of “failure” in so much as all these corporations would like sales to increase every year at a greater rate, forever(which is unreasonable). That being said I imagine once you hit a certain threshold most people would like the levels to at least stay around those levels so when the sales continue to decline, whatever the cause may be, it is going to be cause for concern even if later Halo games were not “failures” by any reasonable human standard.

I have no idea why Halo 3 isn’t a fair standard when by your reckoning it was the first Halo game to have “competition” and also apparently “lost.” Why do Reach, Halo 4 and Halo 5 get a pass due to “competition” and Halo 3 doesn’t? If these “modern” games can’t surpass a “loser” like Halo 3 with its “outdated” mechanics, then the simplest explanation for this is that something about these newer games isn’t clicking with their audience.

You can split hairs about which specific aspect of the newer games is the problem, but the simplest and most like cause is that more Halo players enjoy a game like Halo 3 than a game like Halo 5.

Found some cool info about Halo Reach’s week 1 number, which should pretty much shut down any dissenters who say Halo 3 started the decline of Halo.

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> > > One big issue with the comparisons between Halo’s playerbase with classic movement and modern movement is it never takes into account the state of the Xbox brand at the time.
> > >
> > > Halo CE - The start of Xbox
> > > Halo 2 - Xbox is big
> > > Halo 3 - Xbox is even bigger
> > > Halo Reach - Xbox is a platform focusing on Kinect because the Wii was huge
> > > Halo 4 - Xbox is focusing even more on Kinect
> > > Halo MCC - Xbox’s popularity massively dropped because of Don Mattrick’s XB1 vision in 2013
> > > Halo 5 - Xbox’s popularity still hasn’t recovered from Don Mattrick’s XB1 vision in 2013
> > >
> > > So to make a fair comparison we’d need a modern movement game at a time when Xbox as a brand is strong.
> >
> > But thats assuming that the Xbox brand will ever be able to capture that magic again. You also have to consider the changing times of gaming. Halo 5 was absolutely a product of its time, and while this style of movement was popular in 2015, it may not be popular 5 years later in 2020. We live in a world where DOOM 2016 was a success and the mainstream FPS games have moved back to more classical styles of gameplay, one of which was the most successful game in the franchise ever (Modern Warfare).
> >
> > On top of that, you also have to consider whether Microsoft considers those games failures (most publishers consider 5 million in sales to be insufficient these days), and if they instead want to pivot Halo’s direction to attempt to recapture the magic of when Halo was successful. Pumping money into a project that appears to be a failure in most respects, with said failure potentially being blamed on the massive change in how Halo plays, makes zero business sense.
> >
> > Final point, the Xbox Series X isn’t out yet, so we can’t really gague whether people are still interested in Xbox as a platform. We’d have to wait and see, to be honest.
>
> What makes Doom 2016 a success? All I am reading is 2 million in sales over 1 year on PC. Didnt Halo 5 do 5 million in 3 months?
>
> I think the key point missing here is, lets take into account the state of FPS games during Halos lifetime. Between H3 and H:Reach is where CoD takes off, and thats arguably the biggest FPS game on the planet. All CoD has ever done is follow trends, and they consistently smash sales records and attract new players.

Because DOOM 2016 got a sequel that we can easily see has over double the budget of the first game. You also have to consider the climate of what we consider “success.” I can almost guarantee that Microsoft was not happy about those sales numbers for Halo 5, whereas I can imagine Bethesda/Id were rather pleased that DOOM sold as well as it did because the expectation was that the new game would die very quickly, especially after a poor E3 showing. Only highlighting the PC sales is also extremely disingenuous, by the way, and I can tell you only looked at Wikipedia for those numbers.

I would argue that CoD has also been a trendsetter as well. You don’t become the top FPS game by just riding the coat-tails of what made other series successful. No, remember, Advanced Warfare came out with Halo 5’s movement mechanics first and was likely in development for them before Halo 5 was. Call of Duty has also set other trends for the industry, like loadouts, calling cards, killstreaks (which Halo 4 “adapted”) and various other mechanics and ideas that become increasingly commonplace in the industry.

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> Found some cool info about Halo Reach’s week 1 number, which should pretty much shut down any dissenters who say Halo 3 started the decline of Halo.
>
> Bungie.net

Exactly. The hype for reach was even higher than halo 3 because when you’re expecting something better than halo 3 you get seriously hyped. It just failed on so many levels as a halo game and you could tell that bungie’s heart wasnt into making another halo when they made reach. Dudes had Destiny posters as easter eggs in ODST, which was a halo 3 game/expansion that came out before reach. Forge in reach was good, but the pieces all looked the same so the maps were boring. Armor abilities ruined classic halo with armor lock being the first major one being noticed as an issue, then players started to realize that all the aa’s were garbo. The game wasnt good and it definitely didnt come close to halo 3.

> 2533274848599184;4185:
> Halo being able to compete with CoD was great, but should a game that sold 8 MILLION copies before the Weekly Charts I mentioned even started actually struggle to compete with weekly numbers from a relative newcomer like CoD? Success is relative. Halo 3 was the “highest gross of an entertainment product within 24 hours of its release”, beating the previous record holder… Halo 2. Yet within 3 months, it was being played less than Call of Duty 4, a new game. That should tell you something about its longevity.

CoD went on to break all previous sales records for online multiplayer games, and became a game that defined a generation. Why are you treating being less popular than CoD as if it was some huge failure?

Let’s be realistic here for a moment. We know in retrospect that CoD was an extraordinarily successful game. Why do you think Halo 3 shouldn’t have lost its top spot for CoD 4? New releases overtaking older ones is completely normal. Players want to play the new and exciting game. You can see it here, for example, when GTA IV briefly overtakes both CoD 4 and Halo 3. Of course, we know CoD was no GTA and it had a very engaging online multiplayer, so it managed to hold on to players. Being “a new game” is not an impediment. It’s an advantage.

Next, let’s discuss Halo 3’s “struggle” to compete. When do you think was the last week Halo 3 was the most popular game on XBL? Was it your July 21st, 2008? Or maybe September 22nd, 2008? Couldn’t have hung around much later than March, 2009? No, it was October 26th, 2009. Two years after its release Halo 3 still occasionally topped the charts. Not just occasionally; it actually held the top spot for 24 weeks in 2009. Only MW2—you know, the CoD that broke all previous records—could take it down permanently after two years. And it’s not like Halo 3 just died then and there. Throughout most of 2009, it was the second most popular game on XBL right until the release of Reach.

So, what does that tell us about the longetivity of Halo 3? Pretty respectable, I’d say. You’re not going to find another series with a similar record of longetivity on XBL.

For reference, here’s my compilation of XBL activity chart placements for Halo and Call of Duty games: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B69vf4Yf74CqS2dDeHktbmFGSWM/view.

it seems like the writing is on the wall. i’m just assuming classic movement will be back. i don’t think it will hold the up against today’s fast paced competitors, but then again as long as the community sees it as the spiritual successor to H3 they will be satisfied

Well, Sprint is in the game. We still know very little though. Grappling hook is confirmed as well, looks fun in gameplay.

> 2533274968894951;4195:
> Well, Sprint is in the game. We still know very little though. Grappling hook is confirmed as well, looks fun in gameplay.

there is still little info about sprint like for how long is it?
same go’s for the grappling hook is its only for campaign or also for multiplayer and has it a limit how many time’s you can use it.
that are more the things we have to wait for.
and its a open world more also a good thing for halo.

wow, that was just lackluster.
The graphic was just weird, those metal cliffs somehow like like minecraft and sprint is in…
Ironically the game seems rather slow paced, which was the one thing almost noone from either side wanted.

> 2533274801973487;4197:
> wow, that was just lackluster.
> The graphic was just weird, those metal cliffs somehow like like minecraft and sprint is in…
> Ironically the game seems rather slow paced, which was the one thing almost noone from either side wanted.

I’d say it’s the new engine and it’s something you’ll have to get used to.
Also the jump in graphics quality is fairly big so that will always create an unfamiliar image.
Yes, we saw sprint and I still think it’s a good thing.
The game gave me extreme halo CE feels and I like it. The game wasn’t fast paced back then.
I think they nailed it.
I appreciate them keeping climb so you can actually climb up structures and buildings. I saw no ground pound or spartan charge which I also appreciate.
I’m still going to wait and see.
Would I buy this title on release? No.
Would I buy it a few months later after updates, bug fixes and after it dropped 1/3 in price? Probably.

> 2533274853622530;4198:
> > 2533274801973487;4197:
> > wow, that was just lackluster.
> > The graphic was just weird, those metal cliffs somehow like like minecraft and sprint is in…
> > Ironically the game seems rather slow paced, which was the one thing almost noone from either side wanted.
>
> I’d say it’s the new engine and it’s something you’ll have to get used to.
> Also the jump in graphics quality is fairly big so that will always create an unfamiliar image.
> Yes, we saw sprint and I still think it’s a good thing.
> The game gave me extreme halo CE feels and I like it. The game wasn’t fast paced back then.
> I think they nailed it.
> I appreciate them keeping climb so you can actually climb up structures and buildings. I saw no ground pound or spartan charge which I also appreciate.
> I’m still going to wait and see.
> Would I buy this title on release? No.
> Would I buy it a few months later after updates, bug fixes and after it dropped 1/3 in price? Probably.

As someone who didn’t want sprint but knew it was coming. I think they did it properly, its a boost in speed but doesn’t appear it be a big boost which I think everyone might be accepting of, and maybe its only in campaign? who knows, they stated in the briefing that the grapple hook is an on map pickup as opposed to here where it seems you have it always in campaign to traverse the ring.

The fact that in the press briefer that just came out too, the grapple hook is also on map equipment and not inherent to everyone in multiplayer is great, means you don’t have to cater the map design to grapple but means you can interact with the map in different and unique ways that are fun, creative, unexpecting.

no pound an charge is great.

Graphics definitely seem weird,not sure how to feel.

Love the open world of it.

Welp, we lost this fight, but we knew it was going to end like this from the start.

Graphics on an art side of things look amazing, environment is beautiful, human vehicle and armor are perfection and I loved that blue Elite there. Brutes are a bit weird admittedly, but I still love them! Destructible armor is awesome as well! What’s up with Hyperion though? Something about his face just doesn’t look right to me. But damn his armor is great!

…Grunts on the other side are still disgusting to look at. Their armor is a bit better, but not by much sadly. Weapon system reminds me of Borderlands, which I like in SP and Forge, but shutters my hopes even more for the mp side of things. Not that I have ANY hope for mp now, sprint doesn’t belong in Halo and will ruin the experience again.

On a technical aspect I’m disappointed though. What are shaders, right? Pop ups in the sky and before cut scenes? Particle effects are below avarage too. I was at least exited for Slipspace, now, welp… Couldn’t care less for now.

The hook I’m looking forward though, especially because it’s an open world. THIS is an interesting addition for traversal, not an animation forcing your perspective in a single direction. More stuff like this and less CoD mechanics please!

The map bothered me a bit, I hope it’s not just busy work like AC. Especially after Ghost of Tsushima and its amazing wind based traversal I expect more innovation in this regard.

Equipment is back! Single use stuff you throw. Thank you! H3 didn’t do it too well, but the idea was good. So I’m happy we got it back over loadouts. Although again, loadouts for forge modes would actually be really interesting. Reach AAs as equipment? If they do something like that I’m sold!

Weapons are a mixed bag so far. It’s a bit too much like Destiny for my taste.

Music sounds good as well, great sound design in fact! From plasma to shields. Was that the opening screen BTW? If so are those stone rings portals of sorts? Dunno, but it sounded good. It sounds good!

No MP beta announcement. Welp, was wrong about that! Now the flights are officially useless!

Oh well, I guess I pass for now. I said I wouldn’t buy it day one if it has sprint as a base mechanic again and I meant it. There is Cyberpunk around the same time as well, so I’m set! I’ll try Hi out sometimes in 2021 once the price dropped to oblivion or when some good soul makes a decent rebalancing mod down the line. See ya’ space cowboys!

> 2562762645115210;4199:
> > 2533274853622530;4198:
> > > 2533274801973487;4197:
> > > wow, that was just lackluster.
> > > The graphic was just weird, those metal cliffs somehow like like minecraft and sprint is in…
> > > Ironically the game seems rather slow paced, which was the one thing almost noone from either side wanted.
> >
> > I’d say it’s the new engine and it’s something you’ll have to get used to.
> > Also the jump in graphics quality is fairly big so that will always create an unfamiliar image.
> > Yes, we saw sprint and I still think it’s a good thing.
> > The game gave me extreme halo CE feels and I like it. The game wasn’t fast paced back then.
> > I think they nailed it.
> > I appreciate them keeping climb so you can actually climb up structures and buildings. I saw no ground pound or spartan charge which I also appreciate.
> > I’m still going to wait and see.
> > Would I buy this title on release? No.
> > Would I buy it a few months later after updates, bug fixes and after it dropped 1/3 in price? Probably.
>
> As someone who didn’t want sprint but knew it was coming. I think they did it properly, its a boost in speed but doesn’t appear it be a big boost which I think everyone might be accepting of, and maybe its only in campaign? who knows, they stated in the briefing that the grapple hook is an on map pickup as opposed to here where it seems you have it always in campaign to traverse the ring.
>
> The fact that in the press briefer that just came out too, the grapple hook is also on map equipment and not inherent to everyone in multiplayer is great, means you don’t have to cater the map design to grapple but means you can interact with the map in different and unique ways that are fun, creative, unexpecting.
>
> no pound an charge is great.
>
> Graphics definitely seem weird,not sure how to feel.
>
> Love the open world of it.

Of course this is coming from me watching it on a 1080p twitch stream and not how I usually play:

But I feel like that defeated the purpose of sprint. You move faster but, not really all that fast? Then what’s the point? Like watching this, I felt I’d be moving slow with sprint. The Warthog wasn’t that far away but running there still took time.