The return of classic movement mechanics?

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> > > > Let classic halo be classic halo, maybe spin offs could embrace the legacy more directly but let’s keep the enhanced movement.
> > >
> > > Doesn’t seem very enhanced.
> >
> > Depends on one’s definition of enhanced.
> > Some people think it means having more options.
> > Some people think it means being more immersive.
> > Some people think it mean more fluidity.
> > Not one of these are incorrect.
>
> Okay.
>
> I’m not going to argue semantics.

At the end of the day its just a preference of gameplay style.
That’s why this this debate will never make any progress.

[deleted]

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> > > > Let classic halo be classic halo, maybe spin offs could embrace the legacy more directly but let’s keep the enhanced movement.
> > >
> > > Doesn’t seem very enhanced.
> >
> > Most of those antisprint propaganda Youtube clips get up to 50% as many dislikes as they do likes (Case in point)… That’s quite telling, in terms of how divisive and inconclusive they actually are.

The Star Wars thing is more to do with political correctness though, but I see your point.

"If you feel that sprint is fun and immersive, then fine, so be it. Leave it at that. Just don’t compare it to the old system, or give a hint of comparing it to the old system, otherwise a couple of us are going to butt in, as I know you’re fully aware of. There have been plenty of people in a lot of threads who say they like sprint, but most of the time, none of us started “debating” them because they just left it at that. They like it, and didn’t compare it to the older system. I don’t know what got you to start arguing about sprint, but if your reasoning is just that you like it, please stop so we don’t go through unnecessary circular dialogue.

This goes for everyone else reading this post as well. Just leave people alone if they don’t compare old and new Halo. They have their preferences, and you have yours."

100% agree. How did this debate start anyway?

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> Guardian, Wizard / Warlock, Elongation / Longest, Prisoner, Lockout / Blackout, Midship / Heretic, whatever small and / or cramped tight maps that were present then, are not present now. The smallest in size maps present in Halo 4 were Haven and Skyline, I’d guess Turth and Regret are among the smallest in Halo 5, all those four maps are at least medium size.

Are you going with size, or how cramped the map is? Maps like Plaza and Fathom, even Truth and Empire, have quite a bit of cramped space, and few open areas. This makes those maps feel smaller than they are. These maps more than accomodate a 2v2 (or even a 1v1) game with little - if at all - lenghty search for one’s opponent.
The article that you linked also did not mention Halo 5’s BMS; the video is short and fairly unclear. Was the difference in map distances taken into consideration when measuring that speed? Was everything at 100% movement speed, without tampering? How does that compare to Halo: CE, Halo 2, Halo Reach, and Halo 4? At best, it compares only two games.

> So? There’s really nothing revolutionary by being immitative.

Who says sprint is Halo’s innovation? Who says it’s all about innovation? On the one hand, 343 innovates and the fans riot, demaning the opposite of innovation. On the other, they don’t innovate, and we get Halo 3.3. There are plenty of other areas that can be considered innovation (Spartan Abilities, Warzone, A.I. function, etc), no one said that sprint and movement had to be among those.

> Perhaps I’d like a Halo game which uses the classics as a foundation, perfecting and polishing what those games did, while adding new and interesting mechanics and features, which are not on the “modern gaming” path, with “advanced movement”, Custom Loadouts, and whatever else the flavour of the month happens to be.

Okay, well the “flavor of the month” is Battle Royale games. Survival games. I don’t see Halo implementing those features. Sprint, on the other hand, has been a gaming staple for over 10 years. Halo was late to that table, but has had such function for the last decade. At this point, sprint as a movement function is a classic.

> Customs isn’t for instance going to allow me to implement Biofoam containers to pick up,

Are you sure about that? I am certain that you can set health regeneration to 0%, and change the property of an item to regenerate health to a percentage. However that mechanic is going all the way back to Halo: CE - that’s a hell of a backwards step.

> Dice could very well create a Battlefield with no guns at all, despite being an FPS, yet it could sell millions. Guns are expected from a shooter, no?

If it’s a modern-set shooter, yes. If we’re fighting loose caracatures of enemies in the Middle East, or terrorists from Russia, then guns are going to be expected in a modern theater. If you’ve got a FPS game like The Elder Scrolls, or Far Cry Primal, then guns are going to be a bit out of place.

However you say that I’m including this argument because it’s convenient for me, and dismissing other games. I’ve been given TWO games that don’t have sprint. Counter Strike and Overwatch. Overwatch does have sprint for some characters, and Soldier has even been described as the “intro character” for players who are coming in from other FPS games. If you’re given Counter Strike as a successful modern shooter (which, their highest population count was 823,694 players back in December of 2015; and “modern” being generous, as it was made in 2012), that’s still only one game against many. I use the argument because it is valid. You cannot act like sprint is some rare, gimmicky feature that only a few games include, because that is simply not the case.

(Likely among last replies: ref. Topic as a whole going nowhere.)

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> > > > Let classic halo be classic halo, maybe spin offs could embrace the legacy more directly but let’s keep the enhanced movement.
>
> - Are we going to place other people’s opinions and statements into our arguments now? I’d rather go with what I know than get outside influences to “validate” my position.TeeJay Charms literally did the exact same thing by posting “outside influences,” first, which is what you seem to be upset with me about here. It’s a clip from an outside source (by a small, small YouTuber at that), that’s well over a year old and barely got 10,000 views. Why then are you not upset with them, however? Probably because their side of this represents your argument? - Honestly, this post makes it seem like you hate the anti-sprint argument,Not at all- I do care care about their point of view and want to understand it more. I would only hate not having sprint in Halo Infinite, but I’m definitely not going to hate any of my fellow Halo fans for their beliefs. - **…**rather than you being willing to discuss it and getting the other party to understand your position better.My last few posts have been line-by-line replies to respectfully debate with anti sprinters. - I’m not going to engage with someone like that, by the way.Then what would you call this massive wall of text within this reply of yours?? A non-engaging, extended engagement? - I know we ask provoking questions and assert ourselves into arguments, but we’re just passionate about something we, and gaming as a whole, haven’t had a chance to experience new again in over ten years.Not having sprint wouldn’t be new at all. It’s part of the older generation of Halo titles so going backwards now wouldn’t be a “new,” concept any way you look at it. Regressing backwards with the movement mechanics would be a mistake for Halo, IMO. The classic art style is cool, definitely the classic music is fantastic, but not the movement mechanics. As others have stated in this thread, we want the old clunky, slow Chief to remain on the MCC. Playing as the faster, agile, realistic Chief is so much more enjoyable. - The Master Chief Collection doesn’t really count as a new experience since it was a broken mess and is just a compilation of old titles.As Bonnie Ross stated, the MCC was “a gift to the fans,” as the very intent behind it was to cater to OG fans, yourself included. Sure it was rushed and, as we all know, it had some issues at launch but 343i has spent years in a dedicated and committed effort to fix the MCC experience; so it’s exceptionally unfair at this point for you to assert this as a claim. The MCC is a relevant title that 343i is still actively working to improve and it still maintains a good player population, so you really just can’t completely hand wave it away like you’re trying to do. - If you feel that sprint is fun and immersive, then fine, so be it. Leave it at that.That’s never been my sole rationale for keeping sprint in Halo. What I was trying to assert is that, just as within the hundreds of pages of the sprint debate, most anti-sprinters are trying to dismiss pro-sprinters’ opinions completely when they argue the immersive aspect. I do appreciate those few anti-sprinters who respectfully debate immersion, but many try to dismiss it completely and/or even degrade others for thinking this way. - Just don’t compare it to the old system, or give a hint of comparing it to the old system, otherwise a couple of us are going to butt in, as I know you’re fully aware of.Okay, I don’t really see why this, of all things, is your “all or nothing,” staple here; particularly since anti-sprinters routinely cite the old system when debating their side of it. - There have been plenty of people in a lot of threads who say they like sprint, but most of the time, none of us started “debating” them because they just left it at that.Do you truly believe that? I’ve read through the hundreds of pages of the sprint debate and pro sprinters regularly get attacked for anything remotely positive about sprint; especially if they just state “I like sprint.” If/when pro sprinters do respond then anti sprinters do their best to draw them into debates. On the flip side there doesn’t seem to be any instances of people saying “I don’t like sprint,” getting drawn into debates the same way. - They like it, and didn’t compare it to the older system. I don’t know what got you to start arguing about sprint, but if your reasoning is just that you like it, please stop so we don’t go through unnecessary circular dialogue.I’m doing my best to respectfully add new things of value to this discussion to avoid going into circular dialogue. I have provided line-by-line replies to support keeping sprint in Halo Infinite; along with other enjoyable aspects of the advanced movement system. - This goes for everyone else reading this post as well. Just leave people alone if they don’t compare old and new Halo. They have their preferences, and you have yours.I agree, as stated before, this all comes down to personal preference (at its core level). I do sympathize with your point of view, but you also have to understand that if sprint gets taken out of Halo the pro sprint crowd would get equally upset. That’s why I think we should be willing to consider a compromise on the issue. My suggestion is that we ask for a classic movement style option, as an alternative in campaign, that could be configurable in the settings (Which would cap out at roughly the same speed as the default sprint configuration). In MP 343i could just add in some classic playlists without sprint and that way most people will be satisfied. 343i could even easily analyze that quantitative data from the population population count in those playlists in order to gather information on which play style fans actually prefer. If 343i wanted to they could further supplement that with qualitative data from the community feedback program.

[deleted]

As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.

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> As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.

For many, it’s because it adds complexity and restrictions without really contributing depth.

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> > > > > > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
> > > >
> > > > You claim that you aren’t being listened to, yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective, it takes some level of recognition to do that. I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.
> > > >
> > > > In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.
> > > >
> > > > From an anti-sprint perspective
> > > > - 2 weapons, no more
> > > > - the map size and general design
> > > > - health and kill times
> > > > - weapon damage, ammo and characteristics
> > > > - general base movement speed
> > > > - gametypes and general pace of the game
> > >
> > > Clearly you haven’t been paying attention.
> > >
> > > You started with:
> > > 1. “You claim that you aren’t being listened to…”
> > >
> > > -No I have not. The closest thing to that I’ve even said to that is that pro sprinters have been able to articulate their points on this issue without having to endlessly argue the same circular logic with people. There have been a multitude of reasons to support keeping sprint in Halo (ranging from a broad category).
> > >
> > > The issue I have with that is that antisprinters in general view prosprinters’ opinions as being either:
> > > a) being someone “destroyed,” “obliterated,” “kamikaze’d,” it whatever distasteful word you want to pick which in reality they can have and keep whatever opinion about sprint they want to. Because you disagree with them does not mean you’ve earned any cheap victory you want to make up in your own head.
> > > and/or
> > > b) antisprinters routinely present a false notion that reasons for keeping sprint haven’t been presented when you know darn well they have. You want to aggressively attack every good reason for keeping sprint, so clearly since it’s worthy of your time and effort to fight about it the hundreds of pages worth in these forums full of reasoning for keeping sprint must be solid enough for you to argue about… So why then, do you later flip backwards and pretend that those pro sprint reasons don’t exist? They do exist, you just don’t agree with them.
> > >
> > > 2) “yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective,”
> > >
> > > -I disagree with this. While I have listened to (and respect) the antisprinters’ personal opinions about this issue, I do not respect the notion that all of mine have been “deconstructed,” because some people disagree.
> > >
> > > 3) “I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.”
> > >
> > > -First of all, the entire purpose of posting in these forums doesn’t have to boil down to refuting other people’s opinions. One does not have to spend their entire time in these forums just trying to “deconstruct,” or “destroy,” or “demolish,” opinions (or whatever other aggressive term you antisprinters want to call it). Secondly, I’ve seen Ragin Pagan literally replying line for line with people, post after post. Also there’s often not enough time or even text available to respond to everyone on every little thing. That doesn’t mean things can’t be responded to, but seriously you need to lower your expectations on what you demand as far as responses go. You just literally took up nearly an entire post with an opinions and open-ended questions.
> > >
> > > 4) “In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.”
> > >
> > > -In what sense, exactly? No offense but that doesn’t seem to line up with your previous train of thought so I’m going to assume you meant something different with this. Dual wielding and proning have been discussed in this thread (I believe Ragin Pagan even talked about proning a couple of pages back)- the argument provided was such that going in the prone doesn’t match up with 343i’s intended pace of play for Halo. I mean, honestly this whole argument feels like a stretch - sprinting is (and has been for over a decade) a totally believable and normalized concept in gaming versus doing backflips.
> > > … to be continued (I mean, good lord I can’t even chop the iceberg with my line by line reply here…)
> >
> > You have a poor perception of the original Halo formula community. However, many are very tactful (nowadays) in the quest to have sprint removed.
>
> I’m sorry you feel that way. I like the Halo community, but at times (like this) there appears to be issues that divide us more than they really need to.

The ones who push for a new Halo with no sprint care that much about it, and have been that way since the Halo Reach days. This shows how passionate they are.

[deleted]

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members. This includes stat-flaming.</mark>
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

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> As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.

Chaos is why. If the abilities are all that matters to you then Minecraft should naturally give you X-Ray vision to help you get that extra ore. A little bit of chaos is okay, too much and you’ll alienate your franchise.

Clamber is ok…
Sprint is ehh, better if it’s slowed right down.
Ground pound is wtf is this a fighting game.
Spartan Charge is no. Sumo wrestling insta-AR kill please no.

Halo isn’t Super Smash Bros or Crisis. Let it be Halo.

If it’s all these abilities that is what makes Halo good enough for you then you obviously don’t enjoy any other aspects of the game enough to satisfy playing it which means you’re sold on “what hot new ability” will make it in first person shooters next rather then the game for what it is. You may of played every Halo game and been a vet. But I doubt you have that much of an idea about what you’re talking about.

Your highest CSR ever is a diamond 1.
Your rank is 75/152 3 years in.
You’ve only played 2 days of Arena and warzone 3 years in.
You have lower game time then 90% of the players I still see online.

I’m pretty tired of people who self proclaim to be vets of Halo when they hardly play the game but profess their love for the way it is and believe that they know the direction it should go. I still play this game every day and I still have problems with it. If your argument has anything to offer substantially other than the fact that these abilities increase the “fun” or “immersion” you have then you’ve already lost the argument because that’s not what makes Halo great. It’s so much more than this and its depth is so misunderstood.

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This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).

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> This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).

I love it when people resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.

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> >
> > This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).
>
> I love it when idiots resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.

It doesn’t necessarily invalidate any points/opinions he gave, it just doesn’t help anything and is generally unbecoming.

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> > > > > As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.
> > > >
> > > > Chaos is why. If the abilities are all that matters to you then Minecraft should naturally give you X-Ray vision to help you get that extra ore.
> > > >
> > > > Clamber is ok…
> > > > Sprint is ehh, better if it’s slowed right down.
> > > > Ground pound is wtf is this a fighting game.
> > > > Spartan Charge is no. Sumo wrestling insta-AR kill please no.
> > > >
> > > > Halo isn’t Super Smash Bros or Crisis. Let it be Halo.
> > > >
> > > > If it’s all these abilities that is what makes Halo good enough for you then you obviously don’t enjoy any other aspects of the game enough to satisfy playing it which means you’re sold on “what hot new ability” will make it in first person shooters next rather then the game for what it is. You may of played every Halo game and been a vet. But I doubt you have that much of an idea about what you’re talking about.
> > > >
> > > > Your highest CSR ever is a diamond 1.
> > > > Your rank is 75/152 3 years in.
> > > > You’ve only played 2 days of Arena and warzone 3 years in.
> > > > You have lower game time then 90% of the players I still see online.
> > > >
> > > > I’m pretty tired of people who self proclaim to be vets of Halo when they hardly play the game but profess their love for the way it is and believe that they know the direction it should go. I still play this game every day and I still have problems with it. If your argument has anything to offer substantially other than the fact that these abilities increase the “fun” or “immersion” you have then you’ve already lost the argument because that’s not what makes Halo great. It’s so much more than this and its depth is so misunderstood.
> > >
> > > This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).
> >
> > I love it when idiots resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.
>
> It doesn’t necessarily invalidate any points/opinions he gave, it just doesn’t help anything and is generally unbecoming.

It does. He is one of the people who thinks developers should only listen to pro players aka the 1%. Developers have to take into account that the majority is a casual gamer and they want to have fun. That isn’t to say they should completely ignore the competitive player base but rather find a balance that satisfies both which is damn near impossible. I think the balance in Halo 5 is damn near perfect. I could live without ground pound to he honest.

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> > > > > > 2533274823069762;407:
> > > > > > As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chaos is why. If the abilities are all that matters to you then Minecraft should naturally give you X-Ray vision to help you get that extra ore.
> > > > >
> > > > > Clamber is ok…
> > > > > Sprint is ehh, better if it’s slowed right down.
> > > > > Ground pound is wtf is this a fighting game.
> > > > > Spartan Charge is no. Sumo wrestling insta-AR kill please no.
> > > > >
> > > > > Halo isn’t Super Smash Bros or Crisis. Let it be Halo.
> > > > >
> > > > > If it’s all these abilities that is what makes Halo good enough for you then you obviously don’t enjoy any other aspects of the game enough to satisfy playing it which means you’re sold on “what hot new ability” will make it in first person shooters next rather then the game for what it is. You may of played every Halo game and been a vet. But I doubt you have that much of an idea about what you’re talking about.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your highest CSR ever is a diamond 1.
> > > > > Your rank is 75/152 3 years in.
> > > > > You’ve only played 2 days of Arena and warzone 3 years in.
> > > > > You have lower game time then 90% of the players I still see online.
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m pretty tired of people who self proclaim to be vets of Halo when they hardly play the game but profess their love for the way it is and believe that they know the direction it should go. I still play this game every day and I still have problems with it. If your argument has anything to offer substantially other than the fact that these abilities increase the “fun” or “immersion” you have then you’ve already lost the argument because that’s not what makes Halo great. It’s so much more than this and its depth is so misunderstood.
> > > >
> > > > This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).
> > >
> > > I love it when idiots resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.
> >
> > It doesn’t necessarily invalidate any points/opinions he gave, it just doesn’t help anything and is generally unbecoming.
>
> It does. He is one of the people who thinks developers should only listen to pro players aka the 1%. Developers have to take into account that the majority is a casual gamer and they want to have fun. That isn’t to say they should completely ignore the competitive player base but rather find a balance that

The stat-flaming isn’t what makes that belief problematic is it? That’s what I’m saying.

Argumentative points stand or fall of their own accord. Demeaning others (including stat-flaming and calling others “idiots”) doesn’t change how good or bad a point is.

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> > > > > > > As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chaos is why. If the abilities are all that matters to you then Minecraft should naturally give you X-Ray vision to help you get that extra ore.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Clamber is ok…
> > > > > > Sprint is ehh, better if it’s slowed right down.
> > > > > > Ground pound is wtf is this a fighting game.
> > > > > > Spartan Charge is no. Sumo wrestling insta-AR kill please no.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Halo isn’t Super Smash Bros or Crisis. Let it be Halo.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If it’s all these abilities that is what makes Halo good enough for you then you obviously don’t enjoy any other aspects of the game enough to satisfy playing it which means you’re sold on “what hot new ability” will make it in first person shooters next rather then the game for what it is. You may of played every Halo game and been a vet. But I doubt you have that much of an idea about what you’re talking about.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your highest CSR ever is a diamond 1.
> > > > > > Your rank is 75/152 3 years in.
> > > > > > You’ve only played 2 days of Arena and warzone 3 years in.
> > > > > > You have lower game time then 90% of the players I still see online.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’m pretty tired of people who self proclaim to be vets of Halo when they hardly play the game but profess their love for the way it is and believe that they know the direction it should go. I still play this game every day and I still have problems with it. If your argument has anything to offer substantially other than the fact that these abilities increase the “fun” or “immersion” you have then you’ve already lost the argument because that’s not what makes Halo great. It’s so much more than this and its depth is so misunderstood.
> > > > >
> > > > > This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).
> > > >
> > > > I love it when idiots resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.
> > >
> > > It doesn’t necessarily invalidate any points/opinions he gave, it just doesn’t help anything and is generally unbecoming.
> >
> > It does. He is one of the people who thinks developers should only listen to pro players aka the 1%. Developers have to take into account that the majority is a casual gamer and they want to have fun. That isn’t to say they should completely ignore the competitive player base but rather find a balance that
>
> The stat-flaming isn’t what makes that belief problematic is it? That’s what I’m saying.
>
> Argumentative points stand or fall of their own accord. Demeaning others (including stat-flaming and calling others “idiots”) doesn’t change how good or bad a point is.

No but believing the game should revolve and evolve around the opinions of the 1% is a pretty piss poor argument to stand on to begin with.

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> > > > > > > As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chaos is why. If the abilities are all that matters to you then Minecraft should naturally give you X-Ray vision to help you get that extra ore.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Clamber is ok…
> > > > > > Sprint is ehh, better if it’s slowed right down.
> > > > > > Ground pound is wtf is this a fighting game.
> > > > > > Spartan Charge is no. Sumo wrestling insta-AR kill please no.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Halo isn’t Super Smash Bros or Crisis. Let it be Halo.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If it’s all these abilities that is what makes Halo good enough for you then you obviously don’t enjoy any other aspects of the game enough to satisfy playing it which means you’re sold on “what hot new ability” will make it in first person shooters next rather then the game for what it is. You may of played every Halo game and been a vet. But I doubt you have that much of an idea about what you’re talking about.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your highest CSR ever is a diamond 1.
> > > > > > Your rank is 75/152 3 years in.
> > > > > > You’ve only played 2 days of Arena and warzone 3 years in.
> > > > > > You have lower game time then 90% of the players I still see online.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’m pretty tired of people who self proclaim to be vets of Halo when they hardly play the game but profess their love for the way it is and believe that they know the direction it should go. I still play this game every day and I still have problems with it. If your argument has anything to offer substantially other than the fact that these abilities increase the “fun” or “immersion” you have then you’ve already lost the argument because that’s not what makes Halo great. It’s so much more than this and its depth is so misunderstood.
> > > > >
> > > > > This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).
> > > >
> > > > I love it when idiots resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.
> > >
> > > It doesn’t necessarily invalidate any points/opinions he gave, it just doesn’t help anything and is generally unbecoming.
> >
> > It does. He is one of the people who thinks developers should only listen to pro players aka the 1%. Developers have to take into account that the majority is a casual gamer and they want to have fun. That isn’t to say they should completely ignore the competitive player base but rather find a balance that
>
> The stat-flaming isn’t what makes that belief problematic is it? That’s what I’m saying.
>
> Argumentative points stand or fall of their own accord. Demeaning others (including stat-flaming and calling others “idiots”) doesn’t change how good or bad a point is.

It’s totally invalidated in this instance. When the crux of their argument is intended to demean or degrade someone based on their perceived skill at Halo then it’s a baseless argument. It’s just bullying behavior, actually.

If someone else enjoys facets of Halo that make it feel “fun,” or “immersive,” then stat flaming them to try and shame them away from the argument is flat out wrong and uncalled for; which (if unchecked) leads to the community being perceived as “toxic.”

Stat flaming is generally considered taboo because it’s just an all-around low class and trashy way to try and debate anything with anyone in a civilized manner.

Edit: I would not completely disagree with A6ENT C’s point about not all arguments are invalid because they come from this toxic mentality, but most of them aren’t constructive (certainly not positive); furthermore when the entire argument relies on stat-shaming someone then it’s almost undoubtedly a baseless argument.

> 2533274823069762;417:
> > 2535440283237581;416:
> > > 2533274823069762;415:
> > > > 2535440283237581;414:
> > > > > 2533274823069762;413:
> > > > > > 2535440283237581;412:
> > > > > > > 2533274842009421;411:
> > > > > > > > 2533274823069762;407:
> > > > > > > > As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chaos is why. If the abilities are all that matters to you then Minecraft should naturally give you X-Ray vision to help you get that extra ore.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Clamber is ok…
> > > > > > > Sprint is ehh, better if it’s slowed right down.
> > > > > > > Ground pound is wtf is this a fighting game.
> > > > > > > Spartan Charge is no. Sumo wrestling insta-AR kill please no.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Halo isn’t Super Smash Bros or Crisis. Let it be Halo.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If it’s all these abilities that is what makes Halo good enough for you then you obviously don’t enjoy any other aspects of the game enough to satisfy playing it which means you’re sold on “what hot new ability” will make it in first person shooters next rather then the game for what it is. You may of played every Halo game and been a vet. But I doubt you have that much of an idea about what you’re talking about.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your highest CSR ever is a diamond 1.
> > > > > > > Your rank is 75/152 3 years in.
> > > > > > > You’ve only played 2 days of Arena and warzone 3 years in.
> > > > > > > You have lower game time then 90% of the players I still see online.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’m pretty tired of people who self proclaim to be vets of Halo when they hardly play the game but profess their love for the way it is and believe that they know the direction it should go. I still play this game every day and I still have problems with it. If your argument has anything to offer substantially other than the fact that these abilities increase the “fun” or “immersion” you have then you’ve already lost the argument because that’s not what makes Halo great. It’s so much more than this and its depth is so misunderstood.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).
> > > > >
> > > > > I love it when idiots resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.
> > > >
> > > > It doesn’t necessarily invalidate any points/opinions he gave, it just doesn’t help anything and is generally unbecoming.
> > >
> > > It does. He is one of the people who thinks developers should only listen to pro players aka the 1%. Developers have to take into account that the majority is a casual gamer and they want to have fun. That isn’t to say they should completely ignore the competitive player base but rather find a balance that
> >
> > The stat-flaming isn’t what makes that belief problematic is it? That’s what I’m saying.
> >
> > Argumentative points stand or fall of their own accord. Demeaning others (including stat-flaming and calling others “idiots”) doesn’t change how good or bad a point is.
>
> No but believing the game should revolve and evolve around the opinions of the 1% is a pretty piss poor argument to stand on to begin with.

I’m not arguing that. I only said that if someone makes a good point but also resorts to demeaning others, the good point is still a good point. By the same token, the most cordial individual raising bad arguments doesn’t make the arguments good.

Toxicity is a problem and needs to be accounted for, but saying “You’re argument is bad because you/someone else who thinks like that was toxic” is nonsense.

> 2535444702990491;418:
> > 2535440283237581;416:
> > > 2533274823069762;415:
> > > > 2535440283237581;414:
> > > > > 2533274823069762;413:
> > > > > > 2535440283237581;412:
> > > > > > > 2533274842009421;411:
> > > > > > > > 2533274823069762;407:
> > > > > > > > As a old Halo vet, I like advanced movement and sprint and can’t imagine playing a new Halo without it. I don’t understand why everyone hates it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Chaos is why. If the abilities are all that matters to you then Minecraft should naturally give you X-Ray vision to help you get that extra ore.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Clamber is ok…
> > > > > > > Sprint is ehh, better if it’s slowed right down.
> > > > > > > Ground pound is wtf is this a fighting game.
> > > > > > > Spartan Charge is no. Sumo wrestling insta-AR kill please no.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Halo isn’t Super Smash Bros or Crisis. Let it be Halo.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If it’s all these abilities that is what makes Halo good enough for you then you obviously don’t enjoy any other aspects of the game enough to satisfy playing it which means you’re sold on “what hot new ability” will make it in first person shooters next rather then the game for what it is. You may of played every Halo game and been a vet. But I doubt you have that much of an idea about what you’re talking about.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your highest CSR ever is a diamond 1.
> > > > > > > Your rank is 75/152 3 years in.
> > > > > > > You’ve only played 2 days of Arena and warzone 3 years in.
> > > > > > > You have lower game time then 90% of the players I still see online.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’m pretty tired of people who self proclaim to be vets of Halo when they hardly play the game but profess their love for the way it is and believe that they know the direction it should go. I still play this game every day and I still have problems with it. If your argument has anything to offer substantially other than the fact that these abilities increase the “fun” or “immersion” you have then you’ve already lost the argument because that’s not what makes Halo great. It’s so much more than this and its depth is so misunderstood.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This post could do without the stat-flaming (which is against forum policy).
> > > > >
> > > > > I love it when idiots resort to stat bashing when arguing for changes in Halo. It invalidates any arguments they put forth and gets them banned. Let him rant away.
> > > >
> > > > It doesn’t necessarily invalidate any points/opinions he gave, it just doesn’t help anything and is generally unbecoming.
> > >
> > > It does. He is one of the people who thinks developers should only listen to pro players aka the 1%. Developers have to take into account that the majority is a casual gamer and they want to have fun. That isn’t to say they should completely ignore the competitive player base but rather find a balance that
> >
> > The stat-flaming isn’t what makes that belief problematic is it? That’s what I’m saying.
> >
> > Argumentative points stand or fall of their own accord. Demeaning others (including stat-flaming and calling others “idiots”) doesn’t change how good or bad a point is.
>
> It’s totally invalidated in this instance. When the crux of their argument is intended to demean or degrade someone based on their perceived skill at Halo then it’s a baseless argument. It’s just bullying behavior, actually.
>
> If someone else enjoys facets of Halo that make it feel “fun,” or “immersive,” then stat flaming them to try and shame them away from the argument is flat out wrong and uncalled for; which (if unchecked) leads the community being perceived as “toxic.”
>
> If one person enjoys other parts of the game then any perceived notion that a “muh my own idea of the way game mechanics SHOULD be,” argument should somehow trump everyone else’s viewpoint just becomes that much more blatantly self-serving and completely bias; while simultaneously reducing that overtly aggressive person’s entire credibility in the argument.
>
> Side note: Stat flaming is generally considered taboo because it’s just an all-around low class and trashy way to try and debate anything with anyone in any kind of civilized manner.

It’s not a one-way street, of course. I read plenty of demeaning comments about “sweaty tryhards”.

Everyone wants the game to fulfill their wishes, “self-serving” as that may be. You also think the game should adhere to what you feel is best, do you not? We are all biased towards our preferences.

As unsatisfying as it is, a person not being respectful doesn’t make an opinion/argument wrong. If it did, others who shared that opinion or made that argument while being respectful would also be wrong… and we’d all be wrong at that point.