The return of classic movement mechanics?

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> Tbh, I think the only value there is in life imo is having social interactions… and I value discussions even if they dont change anything. I find enjoyment in conflict, in challenge, in discovery and learning about other people. Discussing things here may not change anything atm, but I still find it extremely valuable to hear out what other people have to say. I learn about other perspectives and I think i end up appreciating them alot more than i would have , should I not have chosen to participate in such discussions.
>
> This extends to even heated debates where sometimes one or more of the participants are hard headed. Sure nobody may be convinced, but at least they recognize other people may hold opinions different to their own. I think thats relatively healthy.
>
> So I guess what applies here is one mans garbage is another mans gold… one mans trash is another man’s treasure.
> I find what you call useless of great value. Although I would agree, yelling at each other is less useful than a civil conversation.
>
> And indeed im fired up and hyped for the gameplay thats merely 10 days away

Same.

I would’ve missed a whole lot of learning opportunities if I had worked under the misbelief that I was giving feedback directly to 343i. I’d go so far as to say that anybody who thinks that the primary purpose of this discussion is feedback, or even to convince someone of something, is missing out on something. If i start from the mindeset that I’m only here to tell what 343i needs to do, I won’t have motivation to question my own reasoning. As a consequence, I will be less able to develop my understanding and improve my reasoning, and to adapt to new information or changing circumstances. I will never be able to understand people I disagree with, and will in turn never be able to convince them of anything.

The more I treat this as an exploration of gameplay design than feedback or a war of idelogies, the more I get out of it.

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> > > As for clamber, from an aesthetic standpoint I wouldnt mind the animiation if its just the animation. If you were already going to make a jump then why not.
> > > But i dont like the fact that clamer allows you to cling onto edges, like in a magnetic like fashion wwhere you can literally be moving the opposite direction to the edge and grab onto it. That, i think is actually unrealistic if you want to argue from a realistic standpoint, and I think potentially gamebreaking from the perspective of gameplay. It promotes that “peekaboo” gameplay where a person can fall back off a ledge and then get back up to the same ledge. Thats not the end of my complaints thou, as clambering, as it works now, allows you to grab “hidden ledges” found in the geometry of the map… complicating matters for map design by a whole bunch.
> > >
> > > I can imagine people still want clamber despite all of these issues, but personally I rather not have it… except if its implemented in “common sense” ways . For example , running and you hit a low obstacle and you hit A at the same time and you clamber right over it. Battle feild implements something similar to this. It helps the game stay on its feet and avoids the annoying pauses in the momentum the game has.
> >
> > Spartans have super strength so grabbing a ledge even if the momentum is moving away from the ledge is fine.
> > Hidden ledges would get patched if they break the gameplay, that’s not a big deal at all. We shouldn’t avoid features to negate exploits. Just fix the exploits.
> >
> > Although I like the idea of clambering or vaulting over low obstacles. Now we certainly don’t need wacky things like wallrunning but I like the idea of a pinch of parkour being added to the mix. Perhaps jump at a wall and press jump again to kick off the wall. Now this is all with thrusters removed mind you.
> >
> > We’ve certainly advanced enough in technology do do basically anything in games. Old Halos by comparison look and feel really arcade-like. Like, they’re not “slick” per se. Lack of seamless transitions in movement.
> >
> > My current thoughts are remove thrusters but keep them for low gravity portions, I can take or leave sprint, keep clamber, and perhaps add low obstacle vaulting and wall-jumping. But perhaps limit that to one wall jump so we can’t do Mario-like jumps.
> >
> > Basically Halo 3 movement with a few parkour moves. Is that so bad?
>
> So id argue similarily with sprint thou, why dont we just remove the negative exploits of sprint rather than remove it entirely ?
> As for wall jumps im actually on board with that, but i dont think they should get you any higher. Like say you are against a wall , going up or down, I think a wall jump is a nice mechanic that could be implemented to leap off of the wall to create distance between you and the wall.
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> As for clamber again lol… Yes fix the exploits, but can you really imagine a supersoldier moving away from an edge and grabbing on to said ledge when it has nothing to grab on other than said ledge? Its… Like i cant imagine that even if the spartan had superglue all over their hands, or even tire grade grips on their hands…
> Remember spartans are very heavy , and even if they can carry their own weight, momentum still is a thing…
> Picture a car moving ever so slowly, and then as it falls of the ledge an arm… ONE arm… grabs the ledge… there is no way in hell that arm is going to stop the car from falling in that direction, let alone pull it back up. No matter how strong that arm is. IF, there was like a rail, then i can imagine it. Something to grip or to hold onto. If the spartan punched their hand into the structure… then id imagine this also would be possible.
> But neihter of those are the case.
>
> Now if you were already stopped already, thats an entirely different story.
>
> But even from a gameplay perspective, I think my attitude towards any added movement mechanics is to facilitate motion, not increase it. If you are jumping up to a ledge and you already are going to make it, putting you up on that ledge with clamber is something im not opposed to.
> Sliding down a slightly slanted wall and jumping off it just before you hit the ground to avoid the pause you would have otherwise got by waiting till the end… that is something id approve of.
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> In campagin some enemies clamber onto scenery where you could just jump up to. Why not, im onboard with that if you as a player could do that.
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> To me, whats bad about adding mechanics that enhance and make you a “super soldier” is that it fundamentally changes how the gameplay will play out, and makes designing maps a headache, and makes players who want to gain an advantage and win play by a rather complex and complicated playstyle.
> i value simplicity. Id appreciate if these features could be implemented in passive, intuitive ways ONLY to facilitate motion… not add onto it.
>
> I mean I also get im getting old, and the only possible way im going to have fun in a game is if i can take more time strategizing with mundane choices rather than go the route of reflex and fire. If my playstyle isnt something people are a fan of then I guess im just gonna be left behind.

I can agree on the wall jump. Horizontal distance for sure.

As for the momentum-clamber thing. Perhaps we’re imagining different things. I can concede on if sprint were included, then grabbing onto a ledge from full sprint moving in the opposite direction can look weird. So if sprint is included then I can see your point. However if there is no sprint then grabbing a ledge from any angle is fine because you’re not moving particularly fast. It wouldn’t look weird under that circumstance.

I still don’t agree on your “only clamber if you’d make the jump already” stance. If you’re going to make the jump without clamber, putting in the clamber animation is pointless and even would make the gameplay wonky around ledges.
As for “peek-a-boo” repeatedly clambering the same ledge, I don’t recall people lasting very long by doing that. That’s something I only ever saw a less than a handful of times in Halo 5, and that person didn’t achieve much with that tactic. Keeping that element won’t hurt anything.

As for our age, they have to appeal to new customers because that’s how they keep their brand going. There has to be a balance between what fast twitch players want and what more strategic players want. Whittle it down too much it just becomes chess with guns.

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> > > > As for clamber, from an aesthetic standpoint I wouldnt mind the animiation if its just the animation. If you were already going to make a jump then why not.
> > > > But i dont like the fact that clamer allows you to cling onto edges, like in a magnetic like fashion wwhere you can literally be moving the opposite direction to the edge and grab onto it. That, i think is actually unrealistic if you want to argue from a realistic standpoint, and I think potentially gamebreaking from the perspective of gameplay. It promotes that “peekaboo” gameplay where a person can fall back off a ledge and then get back up to the same ledge. Thats not the end of my complaints thou, as clambering, as it works now, allows you to grab “hidden ledges” found in the geometry of the map… complicating matters for map design by a whole bunch.
> > > >
> > > > I can imagine people still want clamber despite all of these issues, but personally I rather not have it… except if its implemented in “common sense” ways . For example , running and you hit a low obstacle and you hit A at the same time and you clamber right over it. Battle feild implements something similar to this. It helps the game stay on its feet and avoids the annoying pauses in the momentum the game has.
>
> I can agree on the wall jump. Horizontal distance for sure.
>
> As for the momentum-clamber thing. Perhaps we’re imagining different things. I can concede on if sprint were included, then grabbing onto a ledge from full sprint moving in the opposite direction can look weird. So if sprint is included then I can see your point. However if there is no sprint then grabbing a ledge from any angle is fine because you’re not moving particularly fast. It wouldn’t look weird under that circumstance.
>
> I still don’t agree on your “only clamber if you’d make the jump already” stance. If you’re going to make the jump without clamber, putting in the clamber animation is pointless and even would make the gameplay wonky around ledges.
> As for “peek-a-boo” repeatedly clambering the same ledge, I don’t recall people lasting very long by doing that. That’s something I only ever saw a less than a handful of times in Halo 5, and that person didn’t achieve much with that tactic. Keeping that element won’t hurt anything.
>
> As for our age, they have to appeal to new customers because that’s how they keep their brand going. There has to be a balance between what fast twitch players want and what more strategic players want. Whittle it down too much it just becomes chess with guns.

So what i mean by that phrase “only clamber if you’d make the jump already” is primarily what I imagined what would occur if there was a ledge in front of you, and you can already jump up to it, but you happen to be very close to it, so jumping up and at it could initiate the clamber animation while on the way up.
I agree that should it be the case that making a clamber animation while you are on the way down to a platfrom would certainly look wonky.

Im slowly coming to realize my attitude towards clamber in specific is rather artificial, unsubstantiated, and perhaps requires more investigation on my behalf. Thank you for helping me see that.
But I cant help but feel a sort of disdain after watching some videos of people explaining why it should remain in the game… thats right, Ive watched videos of arguments for clamber, and that is what made me have this sort of attitude I hold now.

Typically I think not much of a halo game when I play it except that im having fun. Im not exactly picky about how the game plays. But after hearing about how other people view and and how it can be implemented, I feel like it encourages a gaming culture that im not particularly fond of.
I think this particular mechanic might require me to rewatch those videos to figure out what about their arguments I dont like… and I hope that after reviewing such I can come back with substance and material that I suppose will either change my mind or help me express my frustration towards it.

As for the Last point. I completely understand and recognize 343 has to reach out to grab a new fanbase. I just would really appreciate it if they also accomodate those of us who have stayed this long with the franchise. A middle road if you might say. A philosophy that I’ll hold onto for a very long time . As a plus, I think new gamers have varied preferences as well as to the pace of a game. I know some people who wont touch fortnite because “its too sweaty”. I know people who dont play chess because its too “slow” (eh there are exceptions to this lol).
Im thinking that to grab both kinds of players some form of hybrid approach is required… but in such a way that both options are intuitive and arent the make and break of who wins a firefight.
I know I might be preaching to the choir at this point, but I guess I just want to express it anways.

@Saifa117 I’m glad we can have a civil discussion on this. We can understand each other’s opinions without necessarily agreeing with them. I feel like too many people are too dogmatic.
As far as the enhanced mobility goes, I really think sprint and thrusters are the worst offenders and if anything those are the elements that need to go. I really don’t like the jump-stabilize. Those elements are what really slows the gameplay down. Clamber, by itself, assuming all other elements are relatively Halo 2-3-esque, not so much.

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> @Saifa117 I’m glad we can have a civil discussion on this. We can understand each other’s opinions without necessarily agreeing with them. I feel like too many people are too dogmatic.
> As far as the enhanced mobility goes, I really think sprint and thrusters are the worst offenders and if anything those are the elements that need to go. I really don’t like the jump-stabilize. Those elements are what really slows the gameplay down. Clamber, by itself, assuming all other elements are relatively Halo 2-3-esque, not so much.

True, sprint and thrust are the biggest offenders. I hope to see them taken out for Infinite.

[deleted]

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> > 2533275004372869;4085:
> > @Saifa117 I’m glad we can have a civil discussion on this. We can understand each other’s opinions without necessarily agreeing with them. I feel like too many people are too dogmatic.
> > As far as the enhanced mobility goes, I really think sprint and thrusters are the worst offenders and if anything those are the elements that need to go. I really don’t like the jump-stabilize. Those elements are what really slows the gameplay down. Clamber, by itself, assuming all other elements are relatively Halo 2-3-esque, not so much.
>
> True, sprint and thrust are the biggest offenders. I hope to see them taken out for Infinite.

I can handle thrust provided it’s less of a tool for crossing maps and more useful in duels, i.e. reduce the distance it can cover and extend the cooldown.

Or you can always make it a pickup! I’m excited Mythic Arena is returning to H5 so I can sink my teeth into it and try out the pseudo-classic gameplay as I missed it the first time. I do think thrusters may mess with map design, but from what I’ve seen out of the mythic stuff, it seems pretty manageable

Yup, Halo Infinite reveal is almost here. The movement mechanics will either be classic, or some sort of modern/classic hybrid. The moment we see that, the moment we are locked on the path. It will influence our map design for us forgers, and it is perhaps the single most important aspect that defines gameplay. Either way, there is a fork in the road ahead, and either route will still be fun and laden with adventure. We will soon find out what direction Halo takes us for the next few years…

If Chief is shown to sprint in campaign reveal, then of course we will assume the same for multiplayer.

But what if Chief doesn’t use sprint in the demonstration, but is still able to in the final game? Therefore, we need a 100% confirmation of yes or no.

I know the wording of the Community Post was about a Campaign reveal… but I would be very surprised if we didn’t at least get a multi-player trailer.

But after the official event I expect the PR team at 343 to start a deluge of regular info.

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> I know the wording of the Community Post was about a Campaign reveal… but I would be very surprised if we didn’t at least get a multi-player trailer.

So, you’d be surprised by 343i not showing something they never said they would show?

I feel like that somehow sums up the Halo community.

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> > I know the wording of the Community Post was about a Campaign reveal… but I would be very surprised if we didn’t at least get a multi-player trailer.
>
> So, you’d be surprised by 343i not showing something they never said they would show?
>
> I feel like that somehow sums up the Halo community.

Why?

They didn’t say they wouldn’t show something about multi-player.

All they said was pretty much one sentence…

> Save the date! We’re excited to share what the team’s been working on – the first look at Halo Infinite’s Campaign is coming on July 23!

Hardly a definitive no is it? Certainly not an in-depth reveal of their plans (although apologies if they have clarified it further somewhere else).

You would expect… with the game supposedly less than six months out… and the world watching… that they would take this opportunity to go all out. Especially if Halo is going to be the centrepiece of their show.

And if such ‘lofty’ expectations sum up the Halo community… then I think we’re all in a good place.

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> > > 2585548714655118;4091:
> > > I know the wording of the Community Post was about a Campaign reveal… but I would be very surprised if we didn’t at least get a multi-player trailer.
> >
> > So, you’d be surprised by 343i not showing something they never said they would show?
> >
> > I feel like that somehow sums up the Halo community.
>
> Why?
>
> _They didn’t say they wouldn’t show something about multi-player._All they said was pretty much one sentence…
>
>
> > Save the date! We’re excited to share what the team’s been working on – the first look at Halo Infinite’s Campaign is coming on July 23!
>
> Hardly a definitive no is it? Certainly not an in-depth reveal of their plans (although apologies if they have clarified it further somewhere else).
>
> You would expect… with the game supposedly less than six months out… and the world watching… that they would take this opportunity to go all out. Especially if Halo is going to be the centrepiece of their show.
>
> And if such ‘lofty’ expectations sum up the Halo community… then I think we’re all in a good place.

To be fair, Microsoft acknowledged the misleading info about the May event. They won’t want to be called out on the same issue again. If they say it’s campaign I’ll take their word on that until told differently.

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> Why?

I don’t know. Developer makes an announcement, doesn’t explicitly deny a thing. People expect the thing because the developer didn’t explicitly say “no”. Developer comes out with exactly what was announced. People are surprised/upset because they didn’t get the thing they were never promised. Just feels like a very familiar experience.

I’m just saying: don’t be surprised for not getting something you weren’t promised. That’s just building yourself up for disappointment.

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> If Chief is shown to sprint in campaign reveal, then of course we will assume the same for multiplayer.
>
> But what if Chief doesn’t use sprint in the demonstration, but is still able to in the final game? Therefore, we need a 100% confirmation of yes or no.

I am confident the movement will be the same across multiplayer and campaign. I do not think they will make major movement changes between what they show and the full game; the gameplay movement mechanics were likely set years ago in development.

This is a thread on movement mechanics, but is aim down sights on the table for discussion too? lol.
I suppose when it comes to aiming and movement its no secret that there is some overlap… cuz when you aim down sights… you move slower iirc ? Or am I sorely mistaken.

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> This is a thread on movement mechanics, but is aim down sights on the table for discussion too? lol.
> I suppose when it comes to aiming and movement its no secret that there is some overlap… cuz when you aim down sights… you move slower iirc ? Or am I sorely mistaken.

not in Halo! you are always moving at full speed regardless of whether you are zoomed in or not

> 2533274814945686;4097:
> This is a thread on movement mechanics, but is aim down sights on the table for discussion too? lol.
> I suppose when it comes to aiming and movement its no secret that there is some overlap… cuz when you aim down sights… you move slower iirc ? Or am I sorely mistaken.

As far as I could ever observe, movement speed remains constant, even while aiming down sights.

> 2533274814945686;4097:
> This is a thread on movement mechanics, but is aim down sights on the table for discussion too? lol.
> I suppose when it comes to aiming and movement its no secret that there is some overlap… cuz when you aim down sights… you move slower iirc ? Or am I sorely mistaken.

You’re mistaken, but the mistake is easy to make.

First, all Halo games except for Reach, 4 and 5 have the same BMS across the board except when carrying heavy weapons. The reason you think you’re going slower is the same reason we think we’re going faster when the FOV is higher. You’re taking an already low FOV with large weapon models, and constricting it even more than it was before. So you think you’re moving slower than you actually are.

This is why an FOV solution to the “Halo 3 is too slow!” argument is so effective. An increase to FOV, in conjunction with 60 FPS and weapon models being reduced in size, would make players feel like they’re going much, much faster than they actually are. It’s an effective solution to an annoying problem that 343 will probably never do now.

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> 5. The removal of sprint does not necessarily mean the game will be “dumbed down” from its predecessors

Need this even be stated? The inclusion of sprint, ‘abilities’, etc, is what ‘dumbs down’ the games, hence why every Halo after 3 has been bad.

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> Thrust is generally friendly to the ‘guns always up’ philosophy, and many in this thread wouldn’t mind seeing its return.

Just as bad as sprint, arguably worse. Halo 3 style equipment is acceptable (I would prefer not to have it, but am fine either way). Sprint, thrust, armor abilities, etc do not belong in Halo.