The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> > what happened to these facts you pride your self on. even when caught in a lie that the whole reticle has to be on the player for all the bullets to hit you still find a way to deflect it. i cant argue with you anymore, whats the point. i felt this was petty a while ago so i’m done on this.
>
> I mean, this is a demonstrable fact that anyone with an Xbox and a pair of controllers should be able to confirm for themselves. I personally spent a couple of minutes testing that in Halo 3 before I said anything because, you know, I’m not into pulling things out out of my -Yoink-. But go ahead: be a jerk and call me a liar over something that literally takes ten minutes to confirm. I fact check what I say because I’m not into looking like an idiot either. But you’re free to look like whatever you want.

if the game has bullet magnetism then all of your reticle doesnt have to land on the target. thats what its for to bend your shots on target. maybe your right though. i dont care but its clear to this whole thing that not landing your full reticle on a player still does similar damage and makes barely any difference in a battle

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> > what happened to these facts you pride your self on. even when caught in a lie that the whole reticle has to be on the player for all the bullets to hit you still find a way to deflect it. i cant argue with you anymore, whats the point. i felt this was petty a while ago so i’m done on this.
>
> I mean, this is a demonstrable fact that anyone with an Xbox and a pair of controllers should be able to confirm for themselves. I personally spent a couple of minutes testing that in Halo 3 before I said anything because, you know, I’m not into pulling things out out of my -Yoink-. But go ahead: be a jerk and call me a liar over something that literally takes ten minutes to confirm. I fact check what I say because I’m not into looking like an idiot either. But you’re free to look like whatever you want.

sorry if i upset you. this whole arguement has gone no where pleasant so i’m done arguing over a pair a of digital weapons. bye

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> > > > > > > well there is a point . i used ar just as much as br. br was for open areas, ar was for close quarters and i ruled. im explaining it in another post
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You might have used the AR, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s worse at close range than the BR. If you were succesful with the AR, your opponents weren’t good enough with the BR. After all, the BR has a steeper learning curve. So, if we take player skill into account, sure, at lower levels of play players might be better off using the AR, but that’s not a useful way of thinking about weapon balance.
> > > > >
> > > > > your acting like its impossible to miss a br shot
> > > >
> > > > No, I’m not. I’m just saying that it’s easier to miss sufficiently many AR shots—and outside of point blank range, it’s impossible to not miss AR shots—such that the BR has an advantage. You’re just not going to get a situation where the AR has an advantage, because even in the ideal scenario at point blank range it isn’t faster than the BR, and it’s only downhill from there.
> > >
> > > the ar is all about quick kills with a mellee or grenade, mess that up and a br kills you, i agree. I dont remember missing ar shots. good ar users stick to people like glue in halo 3.
> >
> > Also, I will add that AR starts is a good thing for Infinite. The ease of use helps newer players get kills and once they get better they can switch to BR use.
>
> well thats just dumb game design, each weapon should have a role for different ranges. making ar compete with br at a multitude of ranges is not the way to go

AR starts was always a staple option in CE, 2, and 3 due to the ease for newer players to enjoy Halo. The context of this includes BR starts like myself and others enjoy, but Halo needs new players to help it grow.

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> if the game has bullet magnetism then all of your reticle doesnt have to land on the target. thats what its for to bend your shots on target. maybe your right though. i dont care but its clear to this whole thing that not landing your full reticle on a player still does similar damage and makes barely any difference in a battle

Fine, I took a crappy phone video to demonstrate the phenomenon: here is the link. There are three tests here:

  • Reticle completely on opponent, shots paced to mitigate spread: 16 shots to kill (17 fired, but if you go frame by frame, you see the 16th already kills the player) - Reticle half on opponent, trigger held: 30 shots to kill - Reticle barely touching opponent, trigger held: 21 shots to killYou see from the last two cases that the number of shots to kill can vary quite significantly depending on spread. The crucial point here is that it can take as much as twice as long to kill if the reticle is not fully on the opponent.
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> > > > what happened to these facts you pride your self on. even when caught in a lie that the whole reticle has to be on the player for all the bullets to hit you still find a way to deflect it. i cant argue with you anymore, whats the point. i felt this was petty a while ago so i’m done on this.
> > >
> > > if the game has bullet magnetism then all of your reticle doesnt have to land on the target. thats what its for to bend your shots on target. maybe your right though. i dont care but its clear to this whole thing that not landing your full reticle on a player still does similar damage and makes barely any difference in a battle
> >
> > Fine, I took a crappy phone video to demonstrate the phenomenon: here is the link. There are three tests here:
> > - Reticle completely on opponent, shots paced to mitigate spread: 16 shots to kill (17 fired, but if you go frame by frame, you see the 16th already kills the player) - Reticle half on opponent, trigger held: 30 shots to kill - Reticle barely touching opponent, trigger held: 21 shots to killYou see from the last two cases that the number of shots to kill can vary quite significantly depending on spread. The crucial point here is that it can take as much as twice as long to kill if the reticle is not fully on the opponent.

your right. When you first mentioned it i believed i would be missing a lot more ammo than that though. it doesnt affect the weapon too much. atleast i learnt something new about bullet magnetism and how it has a drop off. Would be cool if we could mess around with magnetism in customs, maybe for infinite

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My personal idea on a compromise would be removing sprint all together but amping up the base movement speed of players, similar to classic arena shooters such as Quake and Unreal. Of course, this does not account for every issue that people have with sprint, map design would still have to be elongated to accommodate for the faster movement speed, but I do see it fixing many issues including:
Pro Sprint:
The game feeling slow
Lore accuracy, Spartans being super soldiers that can run extremely fast
Con Sprint:
Multiple speeds
getting away at the press of a button
violating the Halo’s golden triangle of Guns, Grenades, and Melee

some probable issues that may stick/ arise from this change can include:
(as previously mentioned) Maps having to be stretched (much like Halo 5) to accommodate for faster movement
Aim assist and bullet magnetism being just as or higher than it is on Halo 5 to deal with faster moving targets
Having to get used to a much faster base movement speed
and probably more that I may be overlooking

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> > > we give halo 5 halo 3’s weapon balance, i can only see improvements.
> >
> > I’m not so sure about that because now we would have weapons which are less effective from long range thus the need to constantly sprint to start any type of fight.
> > In other words we would have to sprint (without the possibility to shoot) for half of the time just to get close enough to a enemy making the gameplay really slow and boring, plus it would be really really difficult to challenge a player who is controlling a power position with a sniper or another long range precision weapon.
>
> you seem to be exaggerating. halo 3 weapon balance is still useful

Not really, you are basically proposing Halo 3 plus sprint on Halo 5 maps which sounds really slow considering the limited range of the Halo 3 BR.

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> > I think sprint will remain, less or no armor abilities, no clamber, boost, ground wave.
>
> I actually think its more likely to lose sprint and retain some abilities like the thruster and air stabilizer

And just have faster movement speed like doom 2016/eternal? That’s actually not bad either, hoping that’s the case as well.

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> > > I think sprint will remain, less or no armor abilities, no clamber, boost, ground wave.
> >
> > I actually think its more likely to lose sprint and retain some abilities like the thruster and air stabilizer
>
> And just have faster movement speed like doom 2016/eternal? That’s actually not bad either, hoping that’s the case as well.

tbh I don’t even think we need faster move speed, just a higher FoV, if we got something close to 105 it’d already feel lighting fast. Halo 3 with a raised fov already feels pretty fast, anything else would just play like quake

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Just make Halo 3 with tightened up weapons. Simple

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> Just make Halo 3 with tightened up weapons. Simple

I don’t think I’d complain about that at all. Could make for some really sweaty multiplayer though…
Ultimately, I kind of hope sprint will stay, but without Spartan abilities (even though they’re sometimes fun). That way multiplayer will be fast and furious (no trademark infringement intended).

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> > Just make Halo 3 with tightened up weapons. Simple
>
> I don’t think I’d complain about that at all. Could make for some really sweaty multiplayer though…
> Ultimately, I kind of hope sprint will stay, but without Spartan abilities (even though they’re sometimes fun). That way multiplayer will be fast and furious (no trademark infringement intended).

Sprint doesn’t make Gameplay faster. That’s only in your head, idk why there isn’t a consensus on this.

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> > > Just make Halo 3 with tightened up weapons. Simple
> >
> > I don’t think I’d complain about that at all. Could make for some really sweaty multiplayer though…
> > Ultimately, I kind of hope sprint will stay, but without Spartan abilities (even though they’re sometimes fun). That way multiplayer will be fast and furious (no trademark infringement intended).
>
> Sprint doesn’t make Gameplay faster. That’s only in your head, idk why there isn’t a consensus on this.

“One of the fundamental goals that we start with for the game is “immersion,” which I’ll just use as shorthand for creating and maintaining an active sense of belief on the part of the player in everything that they are experiencing. This unpacks to a lot more complexity than I am going to dive into, but at the most basic level we are trying to simulate the act of a bipedal hero moving through an environment from first person perspective. We want to convince the player that this illusion is true.” Josh Holmes, 2014 talking about Halo 5 Guardians.

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Yep, the brain is a fickle thing. Halo 5 feels zippy. Halo 3 feels like wallowing in treacle. Lots of reasons for and against… but the illusion is real.

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> > > > Just make Halo 3 with tightened up weapons. Simple
> > >
> > > I don’t think I’d complain about that at all. Could make for some really sweaty multiplayer though…
> > > Ultimately, I kind of hope sprint will stay, but without Spartan abilities (even though they’re sometimes fun). That way multiplayer will be fast and furious (no trademark infringement intended).
> >
> > Sprint doesn’t make Gameplay faster. That’s only in your head, idk why there isn’t a consensus on this.
>
> “One of the fundamental goals that we start with for the game is “immersion,” which I’ll just use as shorthand for creating and maintaining an active sense of belief on the part of the player in everything that they are experiencing. This unpacks to a lot more complexity than I am going to dive into, but at the most basic level we are trying to simulate the act of a bipedal hero moving through an environment from first person perspective. We want to convince the player that this illusion is true.” Josh Holmes, 2014 talking about Halo 5 Guardians.

Thankfully Josh Holmes isn’t working on Halo Infinite.

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> > > > > Just make Halo 3 with tightened up weapons. Simple
> > > >
> > > > I don’t think I’d complain about that at all. Could make for some really sweaty multiplayer though…
> > > > Ultimately, I kind of hope sprint will stay, but without Spartan abilities (even though they’re sometimes fun). That way multiplayer will be fast and furious (no trademark infringement intended).
> > >
> > > Sprint doesn’t make Gameplay faster. That’s only in your head, idk why there isn’t a consensus on this.
> >
> > “One of the fundamental goals that we start with for the game is “immersion,” which I’ll just use as shorthand for creating and maintaining an active sense of belief on the part of the player in everything that they are experiencing. This unpacks to a lot more complexity than I am going to dive into, but at the most basic level we are trying to simulate the act of a bipedal hero moving through an environment from first person perspective. We want to convince the player that this illusion is true.” Josh Holmes, 2014 talking about Halo 5 Guardians.
>
> Thankfully Josh Holmes isn’t working on Halo Infinite.

Here are some of my thoughts on how Halo changed for the worse (though it appears to be getting much better)

Halo’s Decline and IllusionsThat’s the funny thing about H4 and “the Great Schism” (AKA when Halo began to go downhill…though some will say it was during Reach, but Reach feels much more Halo-y than 4 and 5 IMO). Halo began to divorce itself from the things that once made it Halo, and we are costantly being convinced in an illusion or simulated Halo. But when I go play Halo CE, Halo 2, or Halo 3…it isn’t an illusion, it’s very much real, genuine, beautiful. Halo 4’s campaign did have some cool moments, but 4 and 5 have, to me, a bit of a plastic, empty feeling sometimes. Art direction, music direction, gameplay…just don’t immerse me at times. It is good to see Halo back on track, though, and perhaps a partial, if not complete return to classic movement would only help Halo IMO.

Halo’s Identity Shift from Military Sci-fi Shooter to Superhero GameAnother “fatal flaw” in Halo’s direction was the change in direction from military operator to hero/superhero. Notice Holmes’ use of “bipedal hero moving through an environment from first person perspective”. This seems, to me, to allude to a more superhuman, power-endowed superhero with all sorts of crazy abilities, and this is manifested in Halo 5’s movement and spartan abilities. The classic Halo games, though still intending Master Chief to be a Spartan, an elite warrior with a great armor suit, still have an emphasis on his character and personality, which is what ultimately creates a special operator or elite military member, not the gear used or weapons. In classic Halos, a Spartan wasn’t as much of a superhero as he was an ordinary human doing extraordinary things for his Marines. This is reflected in the base player traits, and spartan abilities are not needed. Some would say they add to the game, but I think they detract from what makes Halo Halo.

By removing spartan abilities, 343i can help to return Halo to its identity as a military sci-fi shooter rather than a superhero**shooter. The emphasis on military identity needs to be returned to a much stronger component of Halo. When Halo loses its military identity, we have characters like Palmer, Locke, and Roland, for example. The UNSC should not be a motley medley of different superheroes jumping out of ships and snowboarding down slopes (i.e. Halo 5 intro), but rather a story centered around an average guy with a stoic composure and calm operator attitude who goes the extra mile for Cortana and his Marines.

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> > If sprint didnt lower your weapon would you be ok with it?
> > If there was no sprint but your base player speed was higher would you be ok with it?
>
> These are not the right questions because we don’t have a problem with sprint per se, but with the fact that you are forced to put your gun down while moving.
> So if you give us classic gameplay where you replace the walking animation with the sprint animation we will all be really really happy, we get classic gameplay, you get your sense of speed/feel like a super soldier feeling (not talking directly to you but in general).
> As you can see now sprint is just a cosmetic element and not a gameplay feature.

what if it makes you just run faster?

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> > > > > > Just make Halo 3 with tightened up weapons. Simple
> > > > >
> > > > > I don’t think I’d complain about that at all. Could make for some really sweaty multiplayer though…
> > > > > Ultimately, I kind of hope sprint will stay, but without Spartan abilities (even though they’re sometimes fun). That way multiplayer will be fast and furious (no trademark infringement intended).
> > > >
> > > > Sprint doesn’t make Gameplay faster. That’s only in your head, idk why there isn’t a consensus on this.
> > >
> > > “One of the fundamental goals that we start with for the game is “immersion,” which I’ll just use as shorthand for creating and maintaining an active sense of belief on the part of the player in everything that they are experiencing. This unpacks to a lot more complexity than I am going to dive into, but at the most basic level we are trying to simulate the act of a bipedal hero moving through an environment from first person perspective. We want to convince the player that this illusion is true.” Josh Holmes, 2014 talking about Halo 5 Guardians.
> >
> > Thankfully Josh Holmes isn’t working on Halo Infinite.
>
> Here are some of my thoughts on how Halo changed for the worse (though it appears to be getting much better)
>
> Halo’s Decline and IllusionsThat’s the funny thing about H4 and “the Great Schism” (AKA when Halo began to go downhill…though some will say it was during Reach, but Reach feels much more Halo-y than 4 and 5 IMO). Halo began to divorce itself from the things that once made it Halo, and we are costantly being convinced in an illusion or simulated Halo. But when I go play Halo CE, Halo 2, or Halo 3…it isn’t an illusion, it’s very much real, genuine, beautiful. Halo 4’s campaign did have some cool moments, but 4 and 5 have, to me, a bit of a plastic, empty feeling sometimes. Art direction, music direction, gameplay…just don’t immerse me at times. It is good to see Halo back on track, though, and perhaps a partial, if not complete return to classic movement would only help Halo IMO.
>
> Halo’s Identity Shift from Military Sci-fi Shooter to Superhero GameAnother “fatal flaw” in Halo’s direction was the change in direction from military operator to hero/superhero. Notice Holmes’ use of “bipedal hero moving through an environment from first person perspective”. This seems, to me, to allude to a more superhuman, power-endowed superhero with all sorts of crazy abilities, and this is manifested in Halo 5’s movement and spartan abilities. The classic Halo games, though still intending Master Chief to be a Spartan, an elite warrior with a great armor suit, still have an emphasis on his character and personality, which is what ultimately creates a special operator or elite military member, not the gear used or weapons. In classic Halos, a Spartan wasn’t as much of a superhero as he was an ordinary human doing extraordinary things for his Marines. This is reflected in the base player traits, and spartan abilities are not needed. Some would say they add to the game, but I think they detract from what makes Halo Halo.
>
> By removing spartan abilities, 343i can help to return Halo to its identity as a military sci-fi shooter rather than a superhero**shooter. The emphasis on military identity needs to be returned to a much stronger component of Halo. When Halo loses its military identity, we have characters like Palmer, Locke, and Roland, for example. The UNSC should not be a motley medley of different superheroes jumping out of ships and snowboarding down slopes (i.e. Halo 5 intro), but rather a story centered around an average guy with a stoic composure and calm operator attitude who goes the extra mile for Cortana and his Marines.

Actually very well said here. From the perspective you have expressed here I agree that apartan abilities are not needed. However what are your thoughts in sprint though? Shouldn’t a soldier be able to hustle ? I believe there can be a different argument made along similar lines to what you have made against armor abilities. Id imagine it would go along the lines of “spartans are combat hardened soldiers who remain focused and calm even admist the hazards and dangers that they are immersed in.”

So in my opinion, given this characterization of spartans, sprint and spartan abilities should probably be toned down if not entirely removed.
But I have arguments for them to stay in some aspect or another.
From a utility standpoint, spartans should still be able to have combat in space, hence id argue thruster pacs for traversing zero or low gravity is probably something id want to see in some shape or form.

Edit: Mods im sorry did not mean to post twice

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> > > If sprint didnt lower your weapon would you be ok with it?
> > > If there was no sprint but your base player speed was higher would you be ok with it?
> >
> > These are not the right questions because we don’t have a problem with sprint per se, but with the fact that you are forced to put your gun down while moving.
> > So if you give us classic gameplay where you replace the walking animation with the sprint animation we will all be really really happy, we get classic gameplay, you get your sense of speed/feel like a super soldier feeling (not talking directly to you but in general).
> > As you can see now sprint is just a cosmetic element and not a gameplay feature.
>
> what if it makes you just run faster?

A sprint which makes you faster without lowering the gun is a redundant mechanic because there’s no point to simply walk anymore, so remove sprint and increase base speed instead.

4041

Idea:

You can choose which of the “movement” styles you want, but they come with pros and cons, and they are linked to which Gen of Mjolnir you choose to use. This would be chosen kind of like how you could choose whether to be Spartan or Elite in classic Halo games.

Gen 2 Mjolnir: Halo 4-5 movement stye. Comes with spartan abilities and sprint. However, it has weakened shields and/or lesser physical health. Can carry only 2 grenades of each type.

Gen 1 or Gen 3 Mjolnir: Classic movement stye. Faster base movement, no sprint, enhanced shields and/or armor, can carry up to 4 grenades of each type. No thrusters or spartan abilities or armor abilites. Perhaps even a higher max ammo capacity, but starts with the same ammo as the other Mjolnir type.

I think it would be interesting to see a battle between people using this sort of setup. You could have faster, weaker people vs stronger, somewhat slower people.