The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> That’s a lot of speculation when no gameplay has been shown. I’m not speaking to everybody, but a lot of you will be highly disappointed if classic mechanics are not implemented. It seems you’re already believing in something not yet confirmed, much less discussed

Yes. We know very little about the gameplay and I am itching to find out. It would be nice to once again have a classic Halo since advanced mobility Halo has grow stale imo and that fad seems to be dying… especially with the popularity of Counter-Strike and Overwatch.

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> > > > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
> >
> > You claim that you aren’t being listened to, yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective, it takes some level of recognition to do that. I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.
> >
> > In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.
> >
> > From an anti-sprint perspective
> > - 2 weapons, no more
> > - the map size and general design
> > - health and kill times
> > - weapon damage, ammo and characteristics
> > - general base movement speed
> > - gametypes and general pace of the game
>
> Clearly you haven’t been paying attention.
>
> You started with:
> 1. “You claim that you aren’t being listened to…”
>
> -No I have not. The closest thing to that I’ve even said to that is that pro sprinters have been able to articulate their points on this issue without having to endlessly argue the same circular logic with people. There have been a multitude of reasons to support keeping sprint in Halo (ranging from a broad category).
>
> The issue I have with that is that antisprinters in general view prosprinters’ opinions as being either:
> a) being someone “destroyed,” “obliterated,” “kamikaze’d,” it whatever distasteful word you want to pick which in reality they can have and keep whatever opinion about sprint they want to. Because you disagree with them does not mean you’ve earned any cheap victory you want to make up in your own head.
> and/or
> b) antisprinters routinely present a false notion that reasons for keeping sprint haven’t been presented when you know darn well they have. You want to aggressively attack every good reason for keeping sprint, so clearly since it’s worthy of your time and effort to fight about it the hundreds of pages worth in these forums full of reasoning for keeping sprint must be solid enough for you to argue about… So why then, do you later flip backwards and pretend that those pro sprint reasons don’t exist? They do exist, you just don’t agree with them.
>
> 2) “yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective,”
>
> -I disagree with this. While I have listened to (and respect) the antisprinters’ personal opinions about this issue, I do not respect the notion that all of mine have been “deconstructed,” because some people disagree.
>
> 3) “I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.”
>
> -First of all, the entire purpose of posting in these forums doesn’t have to boil down to refuting other people’s opinions. One does not have to spend their entire time in these forums just trying to “deconstruct,” or “destroy,” or “demolish,” opinions (or whatever other aggressive term you antisprinters want to call it). Secondly, I’ve seen Ragin Pagan literally replying line for line with people, post after post. Also there’s often not enough time or even text available to respond to everyone on every little thing. That doesn’t mean things can’t be responded to, but seriously you need to lower your expectations on what you demand as far as responses go. You just literally took up nearly an entire post with an opinions and open-ended questions.
>
> 4) “In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.”
>
> -In what sense, exactly? No offense but that doesn’t seem to line up with your previous train of thought so I’m going to assume you meant something different with this. Dual wielding and proning have been discussed in this thread (I believe Ragin Pagan even talked about proning a couple of pages back)- the argument provided was such that going in the prone doesn’t match up with 343i’s intended pace of play for Halo. I mean, honestly this whole argument feels like a stretch - sprinting is (and has been for over a decade) a totally believable and normalized concept in gaming versus doing backflips.
> … to be continued (I mean, good lord I can’t even chop the iceberg with my line by line reply here…)

You have a poor perception of the original Halo formula community. However, many are very tactful (nowadays) in the quest to have sprint removed.

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To me, the “Sprint makes me feel faster” spiel sounds a lot like someone arguing the efficacy of homeopathic/placebo “medicine”.

I’ve been around the Sprint discussion thread and this one, but haven’t read or seen any examples of plays that are only/best achievable with Sprint (except the “tactic” of running from an opponent faster than they can pursue with their weapons drawn). Perhaps I’ve overlooked such examples?

Mind you, for one to support the claim that Sprint allows for more/better tactics than “just a BMS” it would have to meet the following criteria:

  • The restriction of non-forward movement must play a role in the tactic’s possibility and/or viability. - The restriction of weapon/grenade usage must do the same.As it stands, I cannot fathom a maneuver that would benefit from only being performable when facing the direction you want to move and relinquishing offensive options. This is also why I’m opposed to Clamber, by the way.
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> Take The Ragin Pagan for example: this person (like so many other pro sprinters who have frequented the sprint debate) has come here and provided multiple sound reasoning for their justification for sprint to remain in Halo. They even hung around and replied to anti sprinters multiple times to constructively debate the issue. But when that person eventually rolls out to avoid going round and round in circular arguments; those same anti sprinter diehards will continue to pretend that The Ragin Pagan’s pro sprint arguments somehow didn’t exist in the first place.

I’m sorry, but as far as I can tell (and I did go back and went through their posts), they’ve had a very hostile tone and attitude, and have said very little of value. Their doesn’t lend itself very well to quality arguments, and indeed, they’ve mostly resorted to bickering over minutia instead of patiently and clearly explaining their views. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing many people defend sprint with great dignity and cogency over the years, but I must say that The Raging Pagan is not one of those people.

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> > > >
>
> We want to see the game quick and fresh with new techniques, no one i know wants the sluggishness of h3 to return.
> - We have had man cannons, teleporters and grav lifts, why not push the envelope with map functions.
> - grav lift equipment was cool in H3 was cool why not make it a throwable grenade that can stick to walls or floors or even people.
> - overwatch has characters with movement, why not add some weapons with movement options like a launcher or grappler, we already have so many weapon clones, why not something fresh, spawning with such evasive power makes the game boring.
> - Evade and jetpack were cool, make them map pickups for horizontal and vertical movement, spawning with them was the problem.
> - invis and overshield could be better utilized.
> - why not introduce some geometry that can be destructible like windows or movable map geometry.
> - hologram was a cool juke ability why not make that a pickup, nade or weapon too?
> - why not add incline geometry why slide jumping or momentum movement is more common?
>
> sprint forces move OR shoot, ground pound is a charge-up which makes the game less fluid, each time you thrust or clamber there’s dead time, when you string them together you can escape most situations.
>
> Allow for fluid uninterrupted movement, where i can precisely alter an action at any point in time without the jank of movement abilities. Then add elements like the ones mentioned above to provide a variety of movement and action options which aren’t inherently evasive.
>
> Push the envelope, but only if it -Yoink!- and improves while retaining the value of the 6 things i mentioned in a previous post.

  1. That’s my point though. Halo’s maps are designed based on the gameplay of that specific game hence why there is a difference between the two (it may not be large but there is a design difference). My point was only that they were different and not inferior/superior.

  2. And why do you think that is? Halo and CoD are the only longstanding franchises that have had many games come out over the years, which each new one (generally) expanding on the last. As such its only natural that things changed, it was inevitable that the two would reach a point where some fans thought the changes were too much hence why CoD has reverted back. All the other games you mentioned are very different functionally as well as their lifespan to release ratio.

  3. By same I meant similar. There is no need to nit-pick such a detail when it can be inferred what I meant. I don’t know why you include Siege in this when it plays like Battlefield, and I have already stated before why CSGO is not an apt comparison.

  4. Halo 2 to Halo 3 had very few additions also and played near-identical. That said I agree that new games shouldn’t alter or change things but instead expand upon the previous entry.

  5. Which is why I said that too much change had been done. Sometimes change is needed to keep the game fresh, especially when the franchise is long lived.

  6. Ok.

Your ideas are very interesting, however without testing we cannot say for sure how effective they would be. Also we could have to be mindful of not introducing another concept that fans think is un-Halo.
“sprint forces move OR shoot”: A simple way to look at it but otherwise yes. The point of Sprint is that it could allow player to move faster than the BMS of previous games without looking ridiculous and offered an optional speed advantage at the cost of having your weapon down.

“ground pound is a charge-up”: Which makes it satisfying to kill with XD

“which makes the game less fluid, each time you thrust or clamber there’s dead time”: So, I don’t see the problem. Halo 5’s movement is already credited of being pretty fluid compared to past games.

“when you string them together you can escape most situations.” AKA skill gap.

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> > > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
>
> …those 6 things have never been drastically different. The movement mechanics of halo 5 break the general pacing of what we consider halo (those 6 especially) and make it more defensive and cat and mouse-y, also if advanced movement is to be more immersive could you agree it is woefully short of what we’ve seen capable…so why stop there?
>
> Every anti-sprint argument, like Tsassi has already said has the view that gameplay reigns supreme and everything else is considered AFTER the gameplay works properly.
> You could make a case for campaign, however for multiplayer there is nothing else that comes close to the importance of game mechanics; they’re the difference between being able to play a couple of hundred games or playing endlessly, they make or break the replay value of MP, not everything -Yoink!- in the quality of the multiplayer game.
>
> All other games with sprint can be punished as most are instakill games, the only one that isn’t is overwatch which has hardkill abilities which keep movement in line, nothing keeps halo 5s movement in check. Ragin Pagan made a point about SWAT, that’s exactly my point, you can’t make that claim in all the modes that aren’t instakill. Instakill headshot keeps advanced movement in check, base movement is preferred, SWAT has always been a gamemode of less movement the better BECAUSE of 1sk headshot. what about the regular killtime gamemodes? They do get heavily affected by the difference in BMS and the string of advanced movement & move or shoot.
>
> If you want a hard point, load up a video of CE, 2, 3, Reach, 4 and 5 being played. 1 casual, 1 tournament level gameplay, i think you’ll find all games except halo 5 play generally similar, all the points i’m making about its defensiveness and lack of punishment are clear as day from the worst of the worst to the best of the best.

continued from last…

  1. “The movement mechanics of halo 5 break the general pacing of what we consider halo (those 6 especially)”

-Definitely not. The general pacing in Halo 4 and Halo 5 were absolutely “Halo-feeling,” IMO and sprint does nothing to hamper the experience. I’m sorry you did not enjoy those games as much as I did but without sprint I think they would have worse games.

  1. “…and make it more defensive and cat and mouse-y, also if advanced movement is to be more immersive could you agree it is woefully short of what we’ve seen capable”

-Just because the developers didn’t deliver exactly what you wanted in terms of the movement system does not mean that it came “woefully short,”
of anything; barring your personal expectations. I thought the products that were H4 and H5 were the best Halos yet, although I do still enjoy playing CE, 2, and 3 periodically. The only real issues that have with them is that they feel like they play slower without sprint; but I’m able to look past that because of the era they were created in.

  1. “Every anti-sprint argument, like Tsassi has already said has the view that gameplay reigns supreme and everything else is considered AFTER the gameplay works properly.”
    -Okay… Sorry you feel that way, I guess?

  2. “You could make a case for campaign, however for multiplayer there is nothing else that comes close to the importance of game mechanics; they’re the difference between being able to play a couple of hundred games or playing endlessly, they make or break the replay value of MP, not everything -Yoink!- in the quality of the multiplayer game.”

-I completely agree, which I would argue demands the need for sprint. Without sprint I would just as equally not be able to enjoy the same things about the next Halo game.

  1. “All other games with sprint can be punished as most are instakill games, the only one that isn’t is overwatch which has hardkill abilities which keep movement in line, nothing keeps halo 5s movement in check.”

-I’m not quite as concerned about “all other games,” because I mostly just play Halo. But I’d argue that sprinting in FPS games is mainstream and should be expected in this day and age.

  1. “Ragin Pagan made a point about SWAT…”

-That’s between you and Ragin Pagan then… Apologies but if you would afford me this, I’m sorta skipping most of this one because it’s taking quite a bit to respond to you on every single point… BTW contrary to what you claim, nobody ever replies to everything that I post in these forums, nor do I expect or blame anyone for that… Anyway back on subject- I actually enjoy Swat all the same; with or without sprint so I’d personally be open to Swat playlists with a classic movement style in Halo Infinite. But as stated before I’m open to compromise on sprint; with some classic playlists available to satisfy everyone. Would you be open for a compromise on this issue?

  1. “If you want a hard point, load up a video of CE, 2, 3, Reach, 4 and 5 being played. 1 casual, 1 tournament level gameplay, i think you’ll find all games except halo 5 play generally similar, all the points i’m making about its defensiveness and lack of punishment are clear as day from the worst of the worst to the best of the best.”

-Are you suggesting that nothing you wrote up to this point should be considered a “hard point”? I mean, you sort of wrote a lot; but these are your words, not mine. Anyway I believe that Halo 5 made its way back into the competitive scene largely because of its marketing and efforts to reach that end. Sure Reach and Halo 4 catered more to casual fans but Bungie and 343i (clearly) can’t satisfy everyone with every Halo game. They’re ultimately both businesses that are creating a global product in order to generate revenue. Some people are going to like the entire product, others are going to like parts of it, others may not like it at all; but they can’t just recreate the same exact gaming experience over and over again either… Which is exaclty how sprint got into Halo in the first place. I’d also encourage you to reread through the Sprint Debate thread in these forums- as stated before there are videos posted in there that I recently reviewed which show many instances where sprint directly enhances gameplay.

… To be concluded …

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> > > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
>
> Just coz! may be a fine enough reason to like it… it’s not a fine enough reason for people who want them removed and have a long line of reasons why.
> I have not seen a straight answer to any of those questions and those are some of the most important questions for people questioning the gameplay of H5.
> If you wish to pose me some questions i’ll happily answer, hopefully you can do the same.

… conclusion to reply to TheCelticDragon…

  1. “Just coz! may be a fine enough reason to like it… it’s not a fine enough reason for people who want them removed and have a long line of reasons why.”

-Okay well you’re basically stating here that you do not care at all about those players’ opinions because you think yours is more important. That’s basically a bullying type of mentality. Why does everyone have to engage in an in-depth debate with you about sprint, anyway? They may (and probably do) have deeper reasoning behind why they enjoy sprint in Halo, but why should they all have to fight with you about that to somehow prove themselves to you?
If someone likes sprint better then so be it, if they want to feel more like a Spartan than sorry, but you aren’t “deconstructing,” or “demolishing,” or “killing,” their opinion on that because you feel that their desire for immersion in Halo is not good enough for you and your own arguments against sprint. For example, if imagining that a Spartan should run makes playing the game where you can run feel more real, and thereby more enjoyable, then who are you to attack other players for this line of reasoning?

  1. “I have not seen a straight answer to any of those questions and those are some of the most important questions for people questioning the gameplay of H5.
    If you wish to pose me some questions i’ll happily answer, hopefully you can do the same.”

-I mean I’ve read over the sprint debate threads in these forums pretty thoroughly and I see straight answers all over the place. Most anti-sprinters just want to ignore those answers or rather, in your minds, “destroy,” “demolish,” “deconstruct,” them or whatever you want to label it… Then (it appears to me) that you just memory dump those answers and rinse and repeat your same circular, opinionated arguments with pro sprinters as they enter into the debate.

In closing:
Sprint shook things up at first in Halo Reach, then was tweaked and tuned into something better with Halo 4, then evolved into the better advanced movement system that we got with Halo 5. I firmly believe the best way forward to continue keeping Halo on its successful path is to keep and enhance sprint in Halo Infinite.

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> > > > > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
> > >
> > > You claim that you aren’t being listened to, yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective, it takes some level of recognition to do that. I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.
> > >
> > > In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.
> > >
> > > From an anti-sprint perspective
> > > - 2 weapons, no more
> > > - the map size and general design
> > > - health and kill times
> > > - weapon damage, ammo and characteristics
> > > - general base movement speed
> > > - gametypes and general pace of the game
> >
> > Clearly you haven’t been paying attention.
> >
> > You started with:
> > 1. “You claim that you aren’t being listened to…”
> >
> > -No I have not. The closest thing to that I’ve even said to that is that pro sprinters have been able to articulate their points on this issue without having to endlessly argue the same circular logic with people. There have been a multitude of reasons to support keeping sprint in Halo (ranging from a broad category).
> >
> > The issue I have with that is that antisprinters in general view prosprinters’ opinions as being either:
> > a) being someone “destroyed,” “obliterated,” “kamikaze’d,” it whatever distasteful word you want to pick which in reality they can have and keep whatever opinion about sprint they want to. Because you disagree with them does not mean you’ve earned any cheap victory you want to make up in your own head.
> > and/or
> > b) antisprinters routinely present a false notion that reasons for keeping sprint haven’t been presented when you know darn well they have. You want to aggressively attack every good reason for keeping sprint, so clearly since it’s worthy of your time and effort to fight about it the hundreds of pages worth in these forums full of reasoning for keeping sprint must be solid enough for you to argue about… So why then, do you later flip backwards and pretend that those pro sprint reasons don’t exist? They do exist, you just don’t agree with them.
> >
> > 2) “yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective,”
> >
> > -I disagree with this. While I have listened to (and respect) the antisprinters’ personal opinions about this issue, I do not respect the notion that all of mine have been “deconstructed,” because some people disagree.
> >
> > 3) “I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.”
> >
> > -First of all, the entire purpose of posting in these forums doesn’t have to boil down to refuting other people’s opinions. One does not have to spend their entire time in these forums just trying to “deconstruct,” or “destroy,” or “demolish,” opinions (or whatever other aggressive term you antisprinters want to call it). Secondly, I’ve seen Ragin Pagan literally replying line for line with people, post after post. Also there’s often not enough time or even text available to respond to everyone on every little thing. That doesn’t mean things can’t be responded to, but seriously you need to lower your expectations on what you demand as far as responses go. You just literally took up nearly an entire post with an opinions and open-ended questions.
> >
> > 4) “In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.”
> >
> > -In what sense, exactly? No offense but that doesn’t seem to line up with your previous train of thought so I’m going to assume you meant something different with this. Dual wielding and proning have been discussed in this thread (I believe Ragin Pagan even talked about proning a couple of pages back)- the argument provided was such that going in the prone doesn’t match up with 343i’s intended pace of play for Halo. I mean, honestly this whole argument feels like a stretch - sprinting is (and has been for over a decade) a totally believable and normalized concept in gaming versus doing backflips.
> > … to be continued (I mean, good lord I can’t even chop the iceberg with my line by line reply here…)
>
> You have a poor perception of the original Halo formula community. However, many are very tactful (nowadays) in the quest to have sprint removed.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I like the Halo community, but at times (like this) there appears to be issues that divide us more than they really need to.

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> > > > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
>
> Clearly you haven’t been paying attention.
>
> You started with:
> 1. “You claim that you aren’t being listened to…”
>
> “those same anti sprinter diehards will continue to pretend that The Ragin Pagan’s pro sprint arguments somehow didn’t exist in the first place”
> **We don’t pretend they don’t exist since we’re critiquing them, i should of verbatim said pretending the argument doesn’t exist then.**The issue I have with that is that antisprinters in general view prosprinters’ opinions as being either:
> a) being someone “destroyed,” “obliterated,” “kamikaze’d,”
>
> At least speaking for deadend24, nasqer and tsassi who i’ve seen post many times and the main people commenting; none of us want some sort of cheap win, we want to state the points of why sprint negatively affects gameplay (based on observation of playing the game) and argue if our points are wrong or misplaced. I haven’t seen destroyed or obliterated attitudes this entire thread, what i have seen is us deconstruct what you are saying, point out any incorrections or how this viewpoint could be misplaced. While a ‘matter of opinion’ we believe it negatively impacts gameplay for ‘X’ reasons and any point that claims otherwise becomes a debate, using gameplay examples of why that isn’t the case. b) antisprinters routinely present a false notion that reasons for keeping sprint haven’t been presented when you know darn well they have. You want to aggressively attack every good reason for keeping sprint, so clearly since it’s worthy of your time and effort to fight about it the hundreds of pages worth in these forums full of reasoning for keeping sprint must be solid enough for you to argue about… So why then, do you later flip backwards and pretend that those pro sprint reasons don’t exist? They do exist, you just don’t agree with them.
>
> Reasons for keeping sprint in regards to gameplay, the best example Ragin Pagan has given yet is it provides a speedboost and he enjoys that boost of speed, the counterpoint to that is the 2 modes of speed force move OR shoot which is worse for a game designed around being able to move AND shoot, and that a speedboost isn’t necessary if the game is quick and the maps are designed accordingly.****I have listed the anti-sprint reasons for gameplay concisely enough, argue why those points are not accurate or not as valuable to gameplay as pro-sprint points. Yet again i will say i have re-read the thread i have not found a compelling pro-sprint point for gameplay, that couldn’t be equally or better achieved by something else mentioned as a counterpoint2) I disagree with this. While I have listened to (and respect) the antisprinters’ personal opinions about this issue, I do not respect the notion that all of mine have been “deconstructed,” because some people disagree.
>
> **When you break down someones point and critique that point then i would call that a breakdown, we are not arguing if we like sprint more or less, we are arguing on if it is better for gameplay, i have not seen either of you critique points made by the anti-sprint crowd about why sprint is the better choice for gameplay instead of the anti-sprint suggestions.**3) One does not have to spend their entire time in these forums just trying to “deconstruct,” or “destroy,” or “demolish,” opinions
>
> No one has said destroy or demolish. We say raising the base movement speed is a better way to handle movement in the game, we give reasons as to how it would improve the gameplay, neither you or Ragin Pagan have mentioned why sprint is better for gameplay than no sprint, you also don’t seem to want to acknowledge alternate suggestions or why they are not as good of an idea. 4) In what sense, exactly? No offense but that doesn’t seem to line up with your previous train of thought so I’m going to assume you meant something different with this. Dual wielding and proning have been discussed in this thread (I believe Ragin Pagan even talked about proning a couple of pages back)- the argument provided was such that going in the prone doesn’t match up with 343i’s intended pace of play for Halo.
>
> And advanced movement doesn’t line up with the pace of halo that 2 weapon limit, small maps and long kill times provideI mean, honestly this whole argument feels like a stretch - sprinting is (and has been for over a decade) a totally believable and normalized concept in gaming versus doing backflips.
> … to be continued (I mean, good lord I can’t even chop the iceberg with my line by line reply here…)

The argument made for sprint at one point in this thread was to ‘feel like a supersoldier’, i claim that if that is one of the key reasons then why not other things found in cinematics? Gameplay needs to be considered, high mobility, evasive movement does not blend well with Halos other mechanics…what multiplayer games is it a normalized concept? games with near instant kill times, sprint isn’t much of an escape tool in those games because you die on sight, like the SWAT example Ragin Pagan gave.

If i have to break the viewpoint down as simple as possible so that the anti-sprint side is understood

high defensive mobility does not mix well with tight spaces + lots of cover + long killtimes
all other examples of sprint or advanced movement have quick kill times or open maps or instakill abilities (overwatch)
quick kill times, open maps or instakill abilities won’t and never will be halo
so high defensive mobility will always feel out of place / broken if all things remain the same…which they essentially have
We can have high enough mobility if we raise the base movement speed and strafe acceleration
then all the factors like map design, weapon balance and the pace and flow of the game can be designed to scale far more consistently
from there we can add movement options to the map, weapons, items and it can be more metered out and smooth
movement options on spawn that are purely aggressive, risky not overly rewarding are preferred
one where moving and shooting is always possible
that way the game doesn’t devolve into a game of cat and mouse
or any attempt at assertive or aggressive gameplay has an easy getaway mechanic throwing a wrench into the gameplay

that’s about as concise and broad as i can make the anti-sprint argument, the debates and constant replies from that crowd, especially me, are because i don’t see a flaw in that rationale, all the conclusions drawn there aren’t incorrect from what i can gather, no opinion for sprint has put that into question, no opinion for sprint that i have seen thus far really delves into how it positively or negatively affects multiplayer gameplay.

At least give me 1 key example of how sprint is good for gameplay that a raise in base movement and strafe acceleration wont solve and do better…just 1.

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xBalancedForcex - please don’t post multiple times in a row thanks. You can edit your last post to add more details or quotes

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> > > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
> > >
> > > No need to pretend when you genuinely think the reasons aren’t good. I’m not really sure why you need to tell yourself that the opponents of sprint secretly

“The movement mechanics of halo 5 break the general pacing of what we consider halo (those 6 especially)”
Not all of them.

  • 2 weapons, no more: Still the same.
  • the map size and general design: Changed to fit new movement
  • health and kill times: Still the same, though engagements may take longer.
  • weapon damage, ammo and characteristics: Still the same.
  • general base movement speed: Changed
  • gametypes and general pace of the game: Changed

“You could make a case for campaign” Yep, I like sprint in campaign. But I understand why its presence is less appreciated in multiplayer.

“nothing keeps halo 5s movement in check” Warzone weapons do, but I see your point. The advanced movement is also a detriment to vehicles as they are very easy to board now.

**Now i’ll give the questions a shot:****-What does a raise in BMS and strafe acceleration not solve?**BMS has a limit to how fast it can go before becoming ridiculous, Sprint on the other hand is only meant to be something to get from point A to B faster than normal.
**-what would of clamber solved in any game pre-halo 5? why is it necessary for gameplay?**Like all features introduced by Halo 5, none are necessary. But that’s like anything that’s convenient such as a mobile phone, its not necessary but its convenient and people like it. Clamber is such a feature, though I’ll admit that its too powerful in Halo 5, while other games such as Destiny 2 do a better job with it.
**-What does slide add to the game that a smarter mechanic not reliant on sprint couldn’t?**Nothing really, 343 simply decided to use Sprint as a back bone for this ability and the result makes logical sense. What non-sprint alternative do you have in mind?
**-Why is 2 modes of speed necessary or beneficial for gameplay, or superior to 1 mode of speed?**Its not, its simply a preference.
**-Why is moving AND shooting punished? or why is moving OR shooting a better solution?**You can still run and shoot, but you can’t sprint and shoot which would be physically impossible anyway.
**-What purpose does ground pound add to the game?**Fun kills especially when the opponent is not expecting it.
**-How does the movement system not break the maps when it is so easy to escape in any area that isn’t open?**Its not always possible to escape, if it were the gameplay would be impossible. That and people don’t always want to escape, they want to beat the enemy.
**-How would reverting back to the old system of movement be unwise?**Its not unwise, its merely uncertain if that would attract new players, also people have their preferences.
**-what keeps the advanced movement in check?**Power weapons, vehicles, power-ups, player skill, and the fact that these movements have limits.

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> I do agree that we could look at other aspects to evolve Halo, but this is a gameplay thread after all. Even if we look at other aspects to improve or evolve Halo, which we have with Forge and some parts of campaign at least, people will still complain the most about movement and gunplay.
>
> I think that movement’s a big part of what makes Halo feel like Halo. Other stuff that doesn’t affect the controls and mechanical feel of the game is just icing on top of the cake, like art, campaign, and firefight design. It’s nice to have, but we don’t really “need” it. The core of Halo, ever since 2, is its multiplayer, so that should be a core aspect of those arguments. Multiplayer maps and player tools are probably what we should debate most on for making Halo feel familiar. Core gameplay first, everything else second.

And what is gameplay if not the things you experience through interaction?
Confining “gameplay” to movement and gunplay leaves out other factors, like health and physics.

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> 1) That’s my point though. Halo’s maps are designed based on the gameplay of that specific game hence why there is a difference between the two (it may not be large but there is a design difference). My point was only that they were different and not inferior/superior.
>
> **I agree, i stated it further in my reply to balanced, i just feel the weapons, map design, and mechanics are very much the same as before (with minor alterations) and that all the mechanics are a radical shift from anything else and don’t mesh well with everything else present…to give an example aside from truth on pretty much any other map if i decide i don’t want to die then i can sprint > thrust > slide > jump > stabilize > GP > clamber > thrust out of most situations, with no shield recharge being the only factor which is a drawback to that power.**2) And why do you think that is? Halo and CoD are the only longstanding franchises that have had many games come out over the years, which each new one (generally) expanding on the last. As such its only natural that things changed, it was inevitable that the two would reach a point where some fans thought the changes were too much hence why CoD has reverted back. All the other games you mentioned are very different functionally as well as their lifespan to release ratio.
>
> i feel it could be argued that cod 4 - BO2 was the golden era of CoD in regards of sales and popularity, i would also argue very little changed and moreso just improved, like Halo it ended on critical and commercial success, tried to do something different and has been trying to grasp that popularity back since. 3) By same I meant similar. There is no need to nit-pick such a detail when it can be inferred what I meant. I don’t know why you include Siege in this when it plays like Battlefield, and I have already stated before why CSGO is not an apt comparison.
>
> **While i believe i know what you meant, i don’t believe the rest are as rational, i truly believe regardless of change that the primary factor that keeps a franchise, any franchise going is familiarity. Halo was in no state of fatigue when it shifted and lost popularity after the shift in direction took place. most of the big sellers in gaming or in film really bank on that familiarity so i don’t see why halo isn’t. While i read your post on CSGO, i don’t believe their market or sensibilities as a franchise are so far removed they become incomparable.**4) Halo 2 to Halo 3 had very few additions also and played near-identical. That said I agree that new games shouldn’t alter or change things but instead expand upon the previous entry.
>
> **Agreed, i think i posted it in another thread but i played mario odyssey not long ago and while completely unrelated to other games and striving for a new experience still kept the feel, style, sound, look and personality of Mario. Star wars comics and games are in a similar boat, a number are samey or reliant on the film material, but some add a really cool new dimension to the universe without subverting or altering the substance it was founded on, Halo 4 or 5 aren’t drastically different, if anything in regard to the personality of the maps and campaign i don’t think they’re different enough, i feel many of the changes almost feel contradictory to what was previously established, even though many of these changes are minor they add up and become less relatable.**5) Which is why I said that too much change had been done. Sometimes change is needed to keep the game fresh, especially when the franchise is long lived.
>
> **Agreed also, and echoing what i wrote above i feel certain games or franchises can keep it fresh, the problem isn’t change, it is change to the extent it is less recognizable as X, because of change. In the campaign exploring new parts of the halo universe, expanding factions or more covenant perspective could be change, or multiplayer maps that furthered the classic halo map design or in-game functions unseen in halo or pushing the potential of homemade custom games like established in H3 as a minigame machine would be welcome.****Outside of what is controversial, exploring Sanghelios is really the only non-divisive new thing we got in 4 or 5.**6) Ok.
>
> Your ideas are very interesting, however without testing we cannot say for sure how effective they would be. Also we could have to be mindful of not introducing another concept that fans think is un-Halo.
> “sprint forces move OR shoot”: A simple way to look at it but otherwise yes. The point of Sprint is that it could allow player to move faster than the BMS of previous games without looking ridiculous and offered an optional speed advantage at the cost of having your weapon down.
>
> “ground pound is a charge-up”: Which makes it satisfying to kill with XD
>
> I think a weapon that behaved like GP, would be more limited and desirable, while GP can be used to kill I find it has much more use as a movement tool to make jumps, i think as a weapon you could make it stronger and less janky and it could be far more fun and rewarding implemented that way.“which makes the game less fluid, each time you thrust or clamber there’s dead time”: So, I don’t see the problem. Halo 5’s movement is already credited of being pretty fluid compared to past games.
>
> I don’t believe it is entirely and those that aren’t on board are usually against the new movement, to give another game as an example Quake 3 has smooth fluid movement, you can alter direction and stop at any time, build momentum and cleanly move through the map, sprint is 1 directional and i made my critiques on the others. the abilities do not flow well with the gameplay, it’s very stop / start.“when you string them together you can escape most situations.” AKA skill gap.

there isn’t a skill gap, as long as you don’t have the skill of a guest you can avoid death even without the string of movement, stringing them together makes it more broken.
make a comparison to any other shooter that has evasive mobility, determine what can beat it easily. Most games don’t let a mechanic run that rampant.

Either way thanks for the concise reply, even if my post was a tad frenetic.

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> I wasn’t leaving out health and physics, since they are factors that help the feel of the game. Weapons and health, and vehicles and physics, do go hand-in-hand with each other after all. I probably could have worded it better, but like I said, anything that doesn’t have to do with the mechanical feel of the game is out of the question for gameplay evolution.

You’re not really going to get much of an “evolution” in terms of “gameplay” then, while keeping it familiar / authenitc with previous stuff, atleast in the opinion of quite a few players.
You can polish existing mechanics, add new ones, or remove some. ( If you want to talk evolution you need to acknowledge that there are redundant parts / organs which have served a purpose a long time ago but do so no longer, as such “removing” is also a viable option for “evolving” mechanical gameplay )

Gunplay has pretty much seen only behind the scenes changes, ADS being basically the only visible change, that and bloom in Reach.
Movement has seen the most in-your-face changes.
And then we have AA’s, dropped though.

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> As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?

Yes exactly and I wouldn’t have it any other way

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Not all of them.

  • 2 weapons, no more: Still the same.
  • the map size and general design: Changed to fit new movement
  • health and kill times: Still the same, though engagements may take longer.
  • weapon damage, ammo and characteristics: Still the same.
  • general base movement speed: Changed
  • gametypes and general pace of the game: Changed

No i’m stating none of those things have changed significantly in H5 from predecessors and that those 6 things are what halo gameplay is anchored on, the movement in question makes these less consistent or harder to design for. Sorry if that is confusing.

> **Now i’ll give the questions a shot:****-What does a raise in BMS and strafe acceleration not solve?**BMS has a limit to how fast it can go before becoming ridiculous, Sprint on the other hand is only meant to be something to get from point A to B faster than normal.

I don’t feel based on Halo’s map design that a boost of speed is necessary in 4v4 maps at any point in time. H2 on 110% speed should suffice, for BTB vehicles, man cannons, grav lifts and teleporters should solve many issues, otherwise if there’s a problem it’s with the map design not the mechanics.

> **-what would of clamber solved in any game pre-halo 5? why is it necessary for gameplay?**Like all features introduced by Halo 5, none are necessary. But that’s like anything that’s convenient such as a mobile phone, its not necessary but its convenient and people like it. Clamber is such a feature, though I’ll admit that its too powerful in Halo 5, while other games such as Destiny 2 do a better job with it.

Halo map design really relies on map control and map rotation, the maps haven’t changed drastically and based on H5 gameplay really break much of that control, it’s inconvenience plays a greater detriment than the positivity it brings.

> **-What does slide add to the game that a smarter mechanic not reliant on sprint couldn’t?**Nothing really, 343 simply decided to use Sprint as a back bone for this ability and the result makes logical sense. What non-sprint alternative do you have in mind?

Well i don’t see sliding as useful (as a slide) but assuming it’s more for the juke / harder to hit quality then a short thruster or evade pickup

> **-Why is 2 modes of speed necessary or beneficial for gameplay, or superior to 1 mode of speed?**Its not, its simply a preference.

The 2 modes are only necessitated because of sprint, if you could move and shoot at top speed with sprint (and sprint is infinite) then it undermines the need for a slower speed. Since only 1 preference can exist in the game, i see 2 modes less preferable in regards to the mechanics of the game.

> **-Why is moving AND shooting punished? or why is moving OR shooting a better solution?**You can still run and shoot, but you can’t sprint and shoot which would be physically impossible anyway.

canonically old halo speeds were sprint speeds and it is seen as possible in cinematics (i think H3, wasn’t much difference from run and sprint back then though), running and shooting is far inferior when the person sprinting has no aim to fight and moves significantly faster around maps where the time between cover to cover is less than the time to kill in most areas of the map

> **-What purpose does ground pound add to the game?**Fun kills especially when the opponent is not expecting it.

i thnk it’s fun, but i think armour abilities in reach are fun too, i just feel it becomes fair when it isn’t freely available at all times, i just posted earlier i think GP is janky, i think if it was a pick-up or rarer feature it could become more fun at the cost of less availability, and make the game less stop / start

> **-How does the movement system not break the maps when it is so easy to escape in any area that isn’t open?**Its not always possible to escape, if it were the gameplay would be impossible. That and people don’t always want to escape, they want to beat the enemy.

But if they didn’t want to beat the enemy the option for an easy escape is there, it isn’t always possible but it’s FAR FAR easier and more likely than in quick kill shooters or overwatch where moving is more penalized by aggressive moves.

> **-How would reverting back to the old system of movement be unwise?**Its not unwise, its merely uncertain if that would attract new players, also people have their preferences.

Even though i feel it’s contentious to say i would argue many have their doubts too, after the under-performance of 4, MCC and 5 i would rather bank on that uncertainty than wade in the mediocre success of what is suppose to be Xbox’s flagship title, especially over the preferences of a crowd that are part of a small playerbase that can’t attain or retain the crowd. At least a shot would be nice than ifs, buts, maybes and soons.

> **-what keeps the advanced movement in check?**Power weapons, vehicles, power-ups, player skill, and the fact that these movements have limits.

Invis and overshield don’t keep it in check well, vehicles aren’t in 4v4, player skill doesn’t account for being able to escape faster than a pistol can kill if you aren’t in close range combat, sprint is unlimited, so is clamber, thrust has a very short cooldown and ground pound is also always available…their limits are not outweighed by what is capable in the game.

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Holy crap… you leave your 4 year old alone with the computer for a few minutes and this is what happens… mods please delete.

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