The return of classic movement mechanics?

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> > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
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> No need to pretend when you genuinely think the reasons aren’t good. I’m not really sure why you need to tell yourself that the opponents of sprint secretly think there are good reasons to include sprint, but don’t want to admit it it. Wouldn’t it be simpler to just admit that what feels like a good reason to some, may not be a good reason to someone else?
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> If you had paid more attention, you would’ve noticed that the opponents and defenders of sprint (generally speaking) approach the topic from fundamentally different points of view. The defenders like to talk about how it makes them feel: how it’s immersive, how it makes them feel more like a Spartan, how it makes the game feel faster. On the other hand, the opponents come more from the point of gameplay and skill. They talk about how it makes escaping easier, how it doesn’t introduce any meaningful tactical decisions, how it breaks the interplay between movement and combat. An opponent of sprint will never be impressed by arguments based on feelings, because sprint doesn’t make them feel them same way, or they don’t consider those feelings as very important parts of the game compared to other things.
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> People give up too easily when they realize that they’re unlikely to make anyone change their minds. I don’t think that should discourage anyone. As I said previously, having a debate is about learning to explain your beliefs, and putting them to the test. You’re never going to make that single, amazing post that magically makes everyone agree with you. But if you stick around long enough, and are ready to be honest with yourself, you might find how sustainable your own opinions are, and you might learn something in the long run. Of course, this approach presumes that you are interested in things other than just converting others.

I understand where you’re coming from. To me, however, I do not believe that responding to every opinion should be considered a requirement to justify reasons for liking sprint in Halo.

I also disagree with the suggestion that I haven’t been paying attention. This issue is very important to me and I’ve read quite a bit on this ongoing debate. What I’ve noticed from reading several hundreds pages of this debate is that anti sprinters build this belief that just because pro sprinters don’t continue to engage them on every point in their never ending argument about their preference on this game mechanic that they somehow beat them.

There are a multitude examples in the sprint thread from pro sprinters that go into vast detail on the benefits of sprint from so many well thought out perspectives (To include mechanical/gameplay perspectives, to clips posted of gameplay examples where sprint benefited players, statements from Bungie and 343i defending sprint in Halo, etc), but antisprinters just “outlast,” them (for lack of better words) with their never ending desire to argue about this issue; which ultimately boils down to personal preference (at the core level).

Take The Ragin Pagan for example: this person (like so many other pro sprinters who have frequented the sprint debate) has come here and provided multiple sound reasoning for their justification for sprint to remain in Halo. They even hung around and replied to anti sprinters multiple times to constructively debate the issue. But when that person eventually rolls out to avoid going round and round in circular arguments; those same anti sprinter diehards will continue to pretend that The Ragin Pagan’s pro sprint arguments somehow didn’t exist in the first place. I understand that anti sprinters are not going to agree with many (if any) pro sprint arguments but they do exists and are well substantiated with support from the community, Bungie, and 343i over the decade that sprint has existed in Halo.

That same small group of anti sprinters just continue to hang around to routinely fight with anyone and everyone who provides reasoning for sprint to remain in Halo, just to flip back around again to try and assert that solid reasoning for keeping sprint in Halo hasn’t been provided.

But pro sprinters have repeatedly stated why sprint is good for Halo, and the reasons go beyond just lore, immersion, and feelings; albeit even if those are the reasons then so be it. For example, if a player likes playing Halo because they want to feel like a Spartan and sprint helps them on that then their reply with “I like sprint because it makes me feel like a Spartan,” should be considered a justifiable argument. You, and other antisprinters clearly don’t like it but it doesn’t make it any less credible than your desire for your preference in game mechanics.

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> This issue is very important to me and I’ve read quite a bit on this ongoing debate. What I’ve noticed from reading several hundreds pages of this debate is that anti sprinters build this belief that just because pro sprinters don’t continue to engage them in their never ending debate that they somehow beat them.

There’s a great deal of history and basic psychology behind that. I’m the first one to admit that many people have issues seeing where the line between subjectivity and objectivity goes. So, when it has been fairly well established that sprint is more detrimental to gameplay than it is beneficial, people who think along those lines easily fall into the trap of thinking that that’s the only perspective from which it can be judged.

When it comes to historical reasons, there is certain smugness to the anti-sprint crowd that isn’t entirely unjustified. This crowd significantly intersects with the crowd that has opposed the directions Halo has taken since Reach. That crowd, on the other hand, has sucessfully predicted the demise of bloom, armor abilities, loadouts, and weapon drops, and they have largely done that from the same perspective of gameplay integrity that they are to this day using against sprint. Sprint is the last one of the issues that plaqued Reach which is still standing. So, the confidence of these people is based on the fact that they’ve been right before. In a sense, they have won every battle they have fought this far, sans this one.

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> There are multiple examples in the sprint thread from pro sprinters that go into vast detail on the benefits of sprint from so many well thought out perspectives (To include mechanical/gameplay perspectives, to clips posted of gameplay examples where sprint benefited players, statements from Bungie and 343i defending sprint in Halo, etc), but antisprinters just “outlast,” them with their never ending desire to argue about this issue.

If you were in their position, wouldn’t you? I mean, if it was either defending your position, or losing your favorite game, which would you choose? The defenders of sprint have it easy, because they have the status quo. The opponents of sprint need to keep the topic afloat until the issue is fixed.

What is kinda frustrating to me is that this discussion has reached it’s end, people have brought up their point and what is left is pretty much new users coming in, not reading anything of what has been written, making the same points just to be “corrected” by the same counter-arguements…
At this point, we’re at the mercy of 343, if they choose to stick with sprinty Halo, this will continue until every classic Halo fan has lost it’s interest in this franchise but if 343 actually dares to try to do a classic Halo game, it will open up a door for new discussions, new progress and possibly a healing process between pro- and anti-sprint fans.
After all, people can only enjoy what they know and we know how gimmick-filled&enhanced mobility Halo plays like but noone knows how a modern calssic Halo would turn out! We did see many, many ways to solve the issue of the game feeling to slow now it would be the time to let people actually experience what it would feel like to them and if they might still feel immersed even if they can’t push a buttom to make their arms wobble around on screen.

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> … and possibly a healing process between pro- and anti-sprint fans…

Let me help you with this one…

It most certainly would not open any perceived “healing process,” between pro- and anti-sprint fansThe only thing taking away sprint would do for certain would be to flip the sides around; thereby dividing the community even further and losing even more fans to the Halo franchise in the process.

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> > … and possibly a healing process between pro- and anti-sprint fans…
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> Let me help you with this one
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> It most certainly would not open any perceived “healing process,” between pro- and anti-sprint fansThe only thing taking away sprint would do if flip the sides around.

Maybe, or maybe some realize upping the BMS accomplishes what sprint can do. Considering some think sprint is the only way to go fast, I believe some would be surprised to find out upping the BMS accomplishes the very same thing :+1: furthermore if people want the nauseating screen bob that is tied to sprinting, it can also be put on BMS for “immersion”. It’s an effect, it’s not exclusive to the sprint animation. Some don’t actially know how mechanics work, and in turn don’t know what they actually want and can/will be surprised to see another method actually work out just the same, or even better.

I’d find it funny myself if the sides did switch cause then I’m just going to state “go play Reach-H5 if you want sprint” in response to those who’d say to play the MCC if you didn’t like the current games. Why? Cause they missed the point entirely and would be getting a taste of their own medicine.

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> I’d find it funny myself if the sides did switch cause then I’m just going to state “go play Reach-H5 if you want sprint” in response to those who’d say to play the MCC if you didn’t like the current games. Why? Cause they missed the point entirely and would be getting a taste of their own medicine.

Oh, well that seems rather revenge-oriented.

In that case I really hope they do keep sprint so we could keep telling you the same thing instead. :wink:

To that end, I’ll be sure to raise a toast to you all when I do eventually get to press that sweet, savory sprint button in Halo Infinite.

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> > > > … and possibly a healing process between pro- and anti-sprint fans…
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> > > Let me help you with this one
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> > >
> > > It most certainly would not open any perceived “healing process,” between pro- and anti-sprint fansThe only thing taking away sprint would do if flip the sides around.
> >
> > I’d find it funny myself if the sides did switch cause then I’m just going to state “go play Reach-H5 if you want sprint” in response to those who’d say to play the MCC if you didn’t like the current games. Why? Cause they missed the point entirely and would be getting a taste of their own medicine.
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> That seems rather revenge-oriented.
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> In that case I really hope they do keep sprint so we could keep telling you the same thing instead. :wink:

:woman_shrugging:t2: Sometimes flipping sides is what makes the other see the others point, plus maybe they’ll learn what they say previously wasn’t the best thing to say. Kind of defeats the purpose to want a new game built on classic play only to then be told to play what’s already been played wouldn’t you think? Furthermore it can easily go both ways, that’s how lackluster that thinking is and of course it’s revenge oriented, it’s asanine of people to say that when they’re missing the point lol. I want a new game, I don’t want to play something that I’ve put thousands of hours into just as I’m sure people wouldn’t want to do with H4/H5. So damn right it’s revenge as maybe they’ll learn what they’re actually saying makes no sense :wink:

I’d love to hear how you’d react if this situation really was to happen, would you not be pissed to to be told to play an older game that you’ve played for 10+ years when you’re wanting something new but an extension off the previous build? People wanting something built off Halo 1-3 aren’t asking for carbon copies for Christ’s sake, they want something similar to it, but with extensions to what is there. Or would you gladly accept what you’re being told and do it?

I myslf already do play the older games, doesn’t scratch the urge for a new game though, I know that may sound surprising :confused:

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> > > > > … and possibly a healing process between pro- and anti-sprint fans…
> > > >
> > > > Let me help you with this one
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It most certainly would not open any perceived “healing process,” between pro- and anti-sprint fansThe only thing taking away sprint would do if flip the sides around.
> > >
> > > I’d find it funny myself if the sides did switch cause then I’m just going to state “go play Reach-H5 if you want sprint” in response to those who’d say to play the MCC if you didn’t like the current games. Why? Cause they missed the point entirely and would be getting a taste of their own medicine.
> >
> > That seems rather revenge-oriented.
> >
> > In that case I really hope they do keep sprint so we could keep telling you the same thing instead. :wink:
>
> :woman_shrugging:t2: Sometimes flipping sides is what makes the other see the others point, plus maybe they’ll learn what they say previously wasn’t the best thing to say. Kind of defeats the purpose to want a new game built on classic play only to then be told to play what’s already been played wouldn’t you think? Furthermore it can easily go both ways, that’s how lackluster that thinking is and of course it’s revenge oriented, it’s asanine of people to say that when they’re missing the point lol. I want a new game, I don’t want to play something that I’ve put thousands of hours into just as I’m sure people wouldn’t want to do with H4/H5. So damn right it’s revenge as maybe they’ll learn what they’re actually saying makes no sense :wink:
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> I’d love to hear how you’d react if this situation really was to happen, would you not be pissed to to be told to play an older game that you’ve played for 10+ years when you’re wanting something new but an extension off the previous build? People wanting something built off Halo 1-3 aren’t asking for carbon copies for Christ’s sake, they want something similar to it, but with extensions to what is there. Or would you gladly accept what you’re being told and do it?
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> I myslf already do play the older games, doesn’t scratch the urge for a new game though, I know that may sound surprising :confused:

Sure it’d be irritating to an extent because of the intent from which it would be coming from, but it’d be the truth.

Plus I don’t believe most people who suggest playing the older Halo titles without sprint are intending to offend anybody either. The MCC is a relevant game which is still being actively improved by 343i and it still has a good population count. I sure wouldn’t want to play a new Halo title without sprint so in that hypothetical scenario you’re proposing I guess I would be stuck with Reach, H4, and H5; instead of being able to enjoy Halo Infinite with sprint. I hope it doesn’t come to that but if it does then I wouldn’t be offended as much as you from being told the truth by other fans of the franchise.

If it does indeed somehow come to that then I’d moreso be offended that 343i would cater to a few fans in a divided community (on this particular issue) by reverting Halo backwards instead of enhancing the current movement system which is just better, IMO.

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> > … and possibly a healing process between pro- and anti-sprint fans…
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> Let me help you with this one…
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> It most certainly would not open any perceived “healing process,” between pro- and anti-sprint fansThe only thing taking away sprint would do for certain would be to flip the sides around; thereby dividing the community even further and losing even more fans to the Halo franchise in the process.

I cannot claim to know if and how many fans will drop Halo if it reverts to classical movement, however I am pretty sure that a lot of fans will return to the series. Again I cannot claim to know this as many of these ‘classic’ fans are much older now and either have little time to play or have moved on. Regardless I do not believe the loss of players would be significant as it would be mitigated but returning players. Its a moot point anyways as we need to let the game’s sales and reviews speak for themselves.

In this debate both sides think they are right. And the truth is they are both right, as this debate is over a preference. There is no best or worse option as both are perfectly functional depending on how the maps and sandbox is designed around them.
Old maps work well for classic Halo and New maps work well for modern Halo. The big difference however is that Halo’s origin is as classical movement not advanced, and most gamers as very conservative in their thinking since it is the type of game that they fell in love with and enjoy. Gamers do not like and response aggressively to drastic changes in their beloved franchises, and while this behaviour is understandable they can sometimes take it to far. Ultimately Gamers want change but also for things to stay familiar and the same, and this works… for a while. The big issue is when a gaming franchise gets too old and runs out of ideas. Halo is 17 years old, it has had a very long life and as such after a while it started experimenting with new mechanics which definitely ruffled some people’s feathers.

Do I believe that the Halo community is anti-change: Yes
Do I believe that to much/to drastic change was forced on Halo: Yes

Not all change is good and not all change is bad.
Halo 4 and 5 have been a learning experience for 343 and we see now that they have started to listen to the community more these past few months. I personally did not expect 343 to introduce a new Engine with many Classic Halo elements and it seems to me that they are attempting to bring back some of the fans Halo has lost these past few years. Does that mean that they will snub all the new fans that their games have made? Probably not, 343 will not scrap all their contributions to Halo as evidenced by some of their designs observed during the trailer (Battle Rifle, Warthog, Forerunner architecture), so I would be very surprised if they returned gameplay back to Halo 3 style. I suspect however that they will tone down or remove several of the advanced movements as hinted when they removed GP and SC during a playlist.
Ultimately we will have to wait and see.

I personally would not want to see a complete return to OG mechanics. I would still play the game as classic movement works fine, however I do find the gameplay to now be, for a lack of a better term, boring. Even the new Doom has introduced Clamber and Double Jump in their game.
But that’s just my opinion.

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> In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!
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> EDIT: Wow, I didn’t expect such diverse opinions on this subject. The Halo community really is split in half. I’m sorry you have to deal with us, 343 :confused:
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> EDIT: Coming up on 260 comments. What have I done?

God I hope not!

I love how fast and fluid Halo 5 is which is why H5 is the best multiplayer hands down still in 2018.

You can keep your slow as Hell Master Chief over in MCC.

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> > In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!
> >
> > EDIT: Wow, I didn’t expect such diverse opinions on this subject. The Halo community really is split in half. I’m sorry you have to deal with us, 343 :confused:
> >
> > EDIT: Coming up on 260 comments. What have I done?
>
> God I hope not!
>
> I love how fast and fluid Halo 5 is which is why H5 is the best multiplayer hands down still in 2018.
>
> You can keep your slow as Hell Master Chief over in MCC.

Halo 5 fast and fluid? Hah.

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> > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
> >
> > No need to pretend when you genuinely think the reasons aren’t good. I’m not really sure why you need to tell yourself that the opponents of sprint secretly think there are good reasons to include sprint, but don’t want to admit it it. Wouldn’t it be simpler to just admit that what feels like a good reason to some, may not be a good reason to someone else?
> >
> > If you had paid more attention, you would’ve noticed that the opponents and defenders of sprint (generally speaking) approach the topic from fundamentally different points of view. The defenders like to talk about how it makes them feel: how it’s immersive, how it makes them feel more like a Spartan, how it makes the game feel faster. On the other hand, the opponents come more from the point of gameplay and skill. They talk about how it makes escaping easier, how it doesn’t introduce any meaningful tactical decisions, how it breaks the interplay between movement and combat. An opponent of sprint will never be impressed by arguments based on feelings, because sprint doesn’t make them feel them same way, or they don’t consider those feelings as very important parts of the game compared to other things.
> >
> > People give up too easily when they realize that they’re unlikely to make anyone change their minds. I don’t think that should discourage anyone. As I said previously, having a debate is about learning to explain your beliefs, and putting them to the test. You’re never going to make that single, amazing post that magically makes everyone agree with you. But if you stick around long enough, and are ready to be honest with yourself, you might find how sustainable your own opinions are, and you might learn something in the long run. Of course, this approach presumes that you are interested in things other than just converting others.
>
> Take The Ragin Pagan for example: this person (like so many other pro sprinters who have frequented the sprint debate) has come here and provided multiple sound reasoning for their justification for sprint to remain in Halo. They even hung around and replied to anti sprinters multiple times to constructively debate the issue. But when that person eventually rolls out to avoid going round and round in circular arguments; those same anti sprinter diehards will continue to pretend that The Ragin Pagan’s pro sprint arguments somehow didn’t exist in the first place. I understand that anti sprinters are not going to agree with many (if any) pro sprint arguments but they do exists and are well substantiated with support from the community, Bungie, and 343i over the decade that sprint has existed in Halo.
>
>
> But pro sprinters have repeatedly stated why sprint is good for Halo, and the reasons go beyond just lore, immersion, and feelings; albeit even if those are the reasons then so be it. For example, if a player likes playing Halo because they want to feel like a Spartan and sprint helps them on that then their reply with “I like sprint because it makes me feel like a Spartan,” should be considered a justifiable argument. You, and other antisprinters clearly don’t like it but it doesn’t make it any less credible than your desire for your preference in game mechanics.

You claim that you aren’t being listened to, yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective, it takes some level of recognition to do that. I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.

In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.

From an anti-sprint perspective

  • 2 weapons, no more
  • the map size and general design
  • health and kill times
  • weapon damage, ammo and characteristics
  • general base movement speed
  • gametypes and general pace of the game

those 6 things have never been drastically different. The movement mechanics of halo 5 break the general pacing of what we consider halo (those 6 especially) and make it more defensive and cat and mouse-y, also if advanced movement is to be more immersive could you agree it is woefully short of what we’ve seen capable…so why stop there?

Every anti-sprint argument, like Tsassi has already said has the view that gameplay reigns supreme and everything else is considered AFTER the gameplay works properly.
You could make a case for campaign, however for multiplayer there is nothing else that comes close to the importance of game mechanics; they’re the difference between being able to play a couple of hundred games or playing endlessly, they make or break the replay value of MP, not everything -Yoink!- in the quality of the multiplayer game.

All other games with sprint can be punished as most are instakill games, the only one that isn’t is overwatch which has hardkill abilities which keep movement in line, nothing keeps halo 5s movement in check. Ragin Pagan made a point about SWAT, that’s exactly my point, you can’t make that claim in all the modes that aren’t instakill. Instakill headshot keeps advanced movement in check, base movement is preferred, SWAT has always been a gamemode of less movement the better BECAUSE of 1sk headshot. what about the regular killtime gamemodes? They do get heavily affected by the difference in BMS and the string of advanced movement & move or shoot.

If you want a hard point, load up a video of CE, 2, 3, Reach, 4 and 5 being played. 1 casual, 1 tournament level gameplay, i think you’ll find all games except halo 5 play generally similar, all the points i’m making about its defensiveness and lack of punishment are clear as day from the worst of the worst to the best of the best.

Here’s the questionswhat does a raise in BMS and strafe acceleration not solve?
what would of clamber solved in any game pre-halo 5? why is it necessary for gameplay?
What does slide add to the game that a smarter mechanic not reliant on sprint couldn’t?
Why is 2 modes of speed necessary or beneficial for gameplay, or superior to 1 mode of speed?
Why is moving AND shooting punished? or why is moving OR shooting a better solution?
what purpose does ground pound add to the game?
How does the movement system not break the maps when it is so easy to escape in any area that isn’t open?
How would reverting back to the old system of movement be unwise?
what keeps the advanced movement in check?

Just coz! may be a fine enough reason to like it… it’s not a fine enough reason for people who want them removed and have a long line of reasons why.
I have not seen a straight answer to any of those questions and those are some of the most important questions for people questioning the gameplay of H5.
If you wish to pose me some questions i’ll happily answer, hopefully you can do the same.

That’s a lot of speculation when no gameplay has been shown. I’m not speaking to everybody, but a lot of you will be highly disappointed if classic mechanics are not implemented. It seems you’re already believing in something not yet confirmed, much less discussed

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> Old maps work well for classic Halo and New maps work well for modern Halo.
> **Halo 5’s map design is not drastically different to any other Halo, aside from the high ledges for clamber only jumps. The movement system is drastically different since good players can string together sprint + thrust + clamber + stabilize + groundpound, a pistol can’t outshoot players that aren’t dumb who escape early. Only open maps like truth really punish it since their is no extra geometry to hide behind.**The big difference however is that Halo’s origin is as classical movement not advanced, and most gamers as very conservative in their thinking since it is the type of game that they fell in love with and enjoy. Gamers do not like and response aggressively to drastic changes in their beloved franchises, and while this behaviour is understandable they can sometimes take it to far.
> **In the history of shooter game franchises only Halo and CoD have changed up the style of the game drastically, there is no other popular shooter that has tried to reinvent itself, most fighters, RTS and MOBAs don’t either. CoD has already double backed because of a decline in popularity.**Ultimately Gamers want change but also for things to stay familiar and the same, and this works… for a while.
>
> Familiar =/= the same, each halo prior to 343 felt familiar, none were the same. Counterstike has had over 18 years of ‘a while’, most popular new games currently follow old formulas like siege and overwatch with some extra spice. The big issue is when a gaming franchise gets too old and runs out of ideas. Halo is 17 years old, it has had a very long life and as such after a while it started experimenting with new mechanics which definitely ruffled some people’s feathers.
>
> The anti-sprint crowd wants new ideas too, they don’t want to be relegated to old games, we just want a familiar game. We want the game to experiment, just build upon not alter and change. The same basis but new ideas and concepts, nothing changed in H4 except infinity settings which chased the cod trend, nothing else pushed the envelope, in H5 the movement system and warzone are the only major extras; the anti-sprint crowd feels most elements have stayed the same but the movement breaks or undermines the core values of halos multiplayer (i listed 6 in a previous post). Do I believe that the Halo community is anti-change: Yes
> **I disagree sort of, i want addition and to further push what is possible, i do not want change, if change means to tear it down and build it up as something else.**Do I believe that to much/to drastic change was forced on Halo: Yes
> **I don’t think it was drastic enough, in H3 we got armour customization, forge, theatre, better file share, favourites****5 added nothing meaningful, impactful or additive, it only introduced things that were replacements or divisive.**Not all change is good and not all change is bad.
> Halo 4 and 5 have been a learning experience for 343 and we see now that they have started to listen to the community more these past few months. I personally did not expect 343 to introduce a new Engine with many Classic Halo elements and it seems to me that they are attempting to bring back some of the fans Halo has lost these past few years. Does that mean that they will snub all the new fans that their games have made? Probably not, 343 will not scrap all their contributions to Halo as evidenced by some of their designs observed during the trailer (Battle Rifle, Warthog, Forerunner architecture), so I would be very surprised if they returned gameplay back to Halo 3 style. I suspect however that they will tone down or remove several of the advanced movements as hinted when they removed GP and SC during a playlist.
> Ultimately we will have to wait and see.
>
> I personally would not want to see a complete return to OG mechanics. I would still play the game as classic movement works fine, however I do find the gameplay to now be, for a lack of a better term, boring. Even the new Doom has introduced Clamber and Double Jump in their game.
> But that’s just my opinion.

We want to see the game quick and fresh with new techniques, no one i know wants the sluggishness of h3 to return.

  • We have had man cannons, teleporters and grav lifts, why not push the envelope with map functions.
  • grav lift equipment was cool in H3 was cool why not make it a throwable grenade that can stick to walls or floors or even people.
  • overwatch has characters with movement, why not add some weapons with movement options like a launcher or grappler, we already have so many weapon clones, why not something fresh, spawning with such evasive power makes the game boring.
  • Evade and jetpack were cool, make them map pickups for horizontal and vertical movement, spawning with them was the problem.
  • invis and overshield could be better utilized.
  • why not introduce some geometry that can be destructible like windows or movable map geometry.
  • hologram was a cool juke ability why not make that a pickup, nade or weapon too?
  • why not add incline geometry why slide jumping or momentum movement is more common?

sprint forces move OR shoot, ground pound is a charge-up which makes the game less fluid, each time you thrust or clamber there’s dead time, when you string them together you can escape most situations.

Allow for fluid uninterrupted movement, where i can precisely alter an action at any point in time without the jank of movement abilities. Then add elements like the ones mentioned above to provide a variety of movement and action options which aren’t inherently evasive.

Push the envelope, but only if it -Yoink!- and improves while retaining the value of the 6 things i mentioned in a previous post.

> 2535444702990491;341:
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> > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
> >
> > No need to pretend when you genuinely think the reasons aren’t good. I’m not really sure why you need to tell yourself that the opponents of sprint secretly think there are good reasons to include sprint, but don’t want to admit it it. Wouldn’t it be simpler to just admit that what feels like a good reason to some, may not be a good reason to someone else?
> >
> > If you had paid more attention, you would’ve noticed that the opponents and defenders of sprint (generally speaking) approach the topic from fundamentally different points of view. The defenders like to talk about how it makes them feel: how it’s immersive, how it makes them feel more like a Spartan, how it makes the game feel faster. On the other hand, the opponents come more from the point of gameplay and skill. They talk about how it makes escaping easier, how it doesn’t introduce any meaningful tactical decisions, how it breaks the interplay between movement and combat. An opponent of sprint will never be impressed by arguments based on feelings, because sprint doesn’t make them feel them same way, or they don’t consider those feelings as very important parts of the game compared to other things.
> >
> > People give up too easily when they realize that they’re unlikely to make anyone change their minds. I don’t think that should discourage anyone. As I said previously, having a debate is about learning to explain your beliefs, and putting them to the test. You’re never going to make that single, amazing post that magically makes everyone agree with you. But if you stick around long enough, and are ready to be honest with yourself, you might find how sustainable your own opinions are, and you might learn something in the long run. Of course, this approach presumes that you are interested in things other than just converting others.
>
> I understand where you’re coming from. To me, however, I do not believe that responding to every opinion should be considered a requirement to justify reasons for liking sprint in Halo.
>
> I also disagree with the suggestion that I haven’t been paying attention. This issue is very important to me and I’ve read quite a bit on this ongoing debate. What I’ve noticed from reading several hundreds pages of this debate is that anti sprinters build this belief that just because pro sprinters don’t continue to engage them on every point in their never ending argument about their preference on this game mechanic that they somehow beat them.
>
> There are a multitude examples in the sprint thread from pro sprinters that go into vast detail on the benefits of sprint from so many well thought out perspectives (To include mechanical/gameplay perspectives, to clips posted of gameplay examples where sprint benefited players, statements from Bungie and 343i defending sprint in Halo, etc), but antisprinters just “outlast,” them (for lack of better words) with their never ending desire to argue about this issue; which ultimately boils down to personal preference (at the core level).
>
> Take The Ragin Pagan for example: this person (like so many other pro sprinters who have frequented the sprint debate) has come here and provided multiple sound reasoning for their justification for sprint to remain in Halo. They even hung around and replied to anti sprinters multiple times to constructively debate the issue. But when that person eventually rolls out to avoid going round and round in circular arguments; those same anti sprinter diehards will continue to pretend that The Ragin Pagan’s pro sprint arguments somehow didn’t exist in the first place. I understand that anti sprinters are not going to agree with many (if any) pro sprint arguments but they do exists and are well substantiated with support from the community, Bungie, and 343i over the decade that sprint has existed in Halo.
>
> That same small group of anti sprinters just continue to hang around to routinely fight with anyone and everyone who provides reasoning for sprint to remain in Halo, just to flip back around again to try and assert that solid reasoning for keeping sprint in Halo hasn’t been provided.
>
> But pro sprinters have repeatedly stated why sprint is good for Halo, and the reasons go beyond just lore, immersion, and feelings; albeit even if those are the reasons then so be it. For example, if a player likes playing Halo because they want to feel like a Spartan and sprint helps them on that then their reply with “I like sprint because it makes me feel like a Spartan,” should be considered a justifiable argument. You, and other antisprinters clearly don’t like it but it doesn’t make it any less credible than your desire for your preference in game mechanics.

It’s not really a small group that wants classic halo back just look at all the fan made games that have been made and in development. Most of them just don’t go on waypoint because 343 has a bad habit of taking down people’s thoughts. Just go type in “classic halo” or “halo 5 is bad” on YouTube and read some of the comments. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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> > > > > > > 2533274963936070;221:
> > > > > > > To be honest, I like classic Halo mechanics but would probably not enjoy them as much nowadays.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sprint has become an essential component of most FPS games and Halo is not an exception. Also, sprint in Halo 5 was good because it stops shield recovery as long as you sprint thus not allowing players to run away from fights without a penalty.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What I think sprint affected negatively in Halo is map design as it is clear that maps in Halo 5 are more norrow with less open areas compared to previous games without sprint.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Other spartan abilities, imo, should not be in future Halo games, ESPECIALLY SPARTAN CHARGE, as they alter the use of movements unique to Halo, such as crouch jumping which has less use in Halo 5 than in previous Halo games due to clamber.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What about Counter-Strike and Overwatch, two of the most popular FPS games for eSports? I’d add Rainbow Six: Siege since sprint is rarely used competitively, but sprint is a part of the game. As for overall popularity, Crossfire (a free to play CS clone) is up there due to the Chinese and Korean market. Hell, even the Doom remake did pretty well, considering the idea of Doom 4 being dead for almost a decade and multiplayer being messed up. I’m not sure about Quake, but people seem to still be interested judging off of Bethesda’s admittedly cringey E3 Conference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’d argue most people don’t really care about sprint, as long as the game makes sense with or without it.
> > >
> > > - You can sprint in real life why shouldn’t you in a game? You can clamber over obstacles why shouldn’t you in a game? - However the question of whether these changes are good or well implemented is another matter entirely. - The problem with games like Halo, and as we have experienced, when the developers try to introduce new aspects of the game in an effort to update, evolve or bring in new fans and audience their older fans usually have a negative reaction to this change. - Regardless all of this doesn’t change the fact that we have no idea what 343 has planned regarding Halo Infinite. - I would be extremely surprised if they went back to a classic style and I anticipate more of a hybrid system with only some Abilities making a return in one form or another.
> >
> > To me though, Halo is supposed to be the face of Xbox. When the face of your console isn’t even in the top 5 or 10 games being played or in sales for your console …to me that’s a major problem and something needs to change.
>
> 1) My point for this wasn’t that just because you can do something in real life means you should be able to do it in game. I meant it more in the sense of immersion. Also you can’t sprint at full speed and shoot at the same time, which is the point of sprint. Lying down is a feature 343 could indeed add to their game if they wanted, however as Halo is a run and gun type of game it wouldn’t work well and people wouldn’t use it much I’d wager. That said I agree that games should be fun first, as why else are we playing games other than to have fun?
>
> 2) True, there is nothing wrong with simple mechanics as long as the game flows well and is enjoyable. The problem with Halo, as many people have pointed out over the years, is that it is having an identity crisis. Should it return to its origin as a more simple game mechanically or should it continue along the path of complexity. With fans being so split on this issue the answer isn’t so easy to discern.
>
> 3) I agree here. Bungie tried to add something new to spice up the gameplay of Halo with the introduction of Armour Abilities, including Sprint, as an evolution of equipment (which I personally felt that many of them were underwhelming). As we know this was a controversial change, and perhaps Bungie would have changed things around (perhaps not considering Destiny) had they stayed but alas they didn’t and 343 took the reins and as a very new company they simply continued what Bungie had stated for their first game Halo 4. As people voiced their complaints (and I personally believe 343 wasn’t listening to the community as much as it does nowadays) and other games introduced advanced movement, 343 decided to put their own spin on it and give it a try and the results are history.
> I’m curious, what is your opinion on all this? What do you want to stay? What do you want removed?
>
> 4) Yay!
>
> 5) Well if it returns and it is a smashing success and fun then I’ll have no complaints. I often play Halo 3 so it would be very easy for me to jump in.
>
> I will definitely buy Halo 6. It my favorite series and I’m far too in love with it. I’ve never hated any games so far. The only disappointment that I’ve experienced was Halo 5’s campaign story.
>
> Don’t worry I know you are not attacking me. As you have deduced I don’t have a strong opinion on this matter and I’ll be content regardless but I still like engaging in the discussion in order to see what other people’s opinion are as well as learn more about the topic at hand. Ordinarily I would stay far away from the Classic vs Advanced Movement debacle as many discussions end up with insults and pointless round about arguments and at the end of the day no one changes anyone’s opinion as everyone thinks they are right. I made an exception this time as people seemed cordial enough and because 343 surprised me with this move.
>
> To me Halo is Xbox its the main reason I got the console. Though I thought Halo was still in the top 10. Then again I don’t really check things like that.

  • Ok I get that, but then it becomes is it right for the game. Personally I find all that sprint does in halo is stretch maps and levels out unnecessarily which ultimately for me just leads to boring beyond boring gameplay. So many times I’m just running…and running…and running… Nothing happening at all. Just hoping something changes soon. To me that isn’t me giving the feeling of immersion, it’s giving me the feeling of boredom… it’s also in multiplayer maps too. People say it gets you back in the fight quicker but in reality it takes so long to get back to the fight, your teammate(s) are already dead. The sprint animation for me doesn’t add anything to the game at all, it takes away from it. I don’t feel Halo is a run and gun game, well it wasn’t… COD is run and gun, Halo wasn’t. Also if sprint is in, we should be able to shoot and sprint. Spartans aren’t a normal human remember. There are genetically enhanced humans, wearing advanced high tech armor. So we should be able too… That being said, if this happens it’s a other thing for people to learn and remember. Another game mechanic… I feel there’s already too many things to remember and halo has become too complex for the average gamer. I myself have many friends who have literally said this too me and have stopped playing because of it. - I agree that Halo has an identity crisis…in many areas. I don’t think I need to get into why and such as people have discussed this, but for me personally, I just want 343I to pick and go with it and to stop trying to make two different games in one (Halo 5, warzone and the rest)To be continued… LoL

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> > > In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!
> > >
> > > EDIT: Wow, I didn’t expect such diverse opinions on this subject. The Halo community really is split in half. I’m sorry you have to deal with us, 343 :confused:
> > >
> > > EDIT: Coming up on 260 comments. What have I done?
> >
> > God I hope not!
> >
> > I love how fast and fluid Halo 5 is which is why H5 is the best multiplayer hands down still in 2018.
> >
> > You can keep your slow as Hell Master Chief over in MCC.
>
> Halo 5 fast and fluid? Hah.

Haha of all the CE pros to show to someone unfamiliar to CE, don’t think there’s a pro scene with those kind of names anymore.

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> > > 2533274825830455;339:
> > > > 2535444702990491;334:
> > > > The same couple of people will continue to skew the issue by pretending that no one has presented good reasons to keep sprint in Halo, when the reality is that you and so many others in these forums are just more responsible about posting your ideas; rather than just sticking around forever just to fight everyone who disagrees with you on the issue.
>
> You claim that you aren’t being listened to, yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective, it takes some level of recognition to do that. I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.
>
> In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.
>
> From an anti-sprint perspective
> - 2 weapons, no more
> - the map size and general design
> - health and kill times
> - weapon damage, ammo and characteristics
> - general base movement speed
> - gametypes and general pace of the game

Clearly you haven’t been paying attention.

You started with:

  1. “You claim that you aren’t being listened to…”

-No I have not. The closest thing to that I’ve even said to that is that pro sprinters have been able to articulate their points on this issue without having to endlessly argue the same circular logic with people. There have been a multitude of reasons to support keeping sprint in Halo (ranging from a broad category of reasons, including gameplay/mechanics, clips to show how sprint enhances gameplay, statements from Bungie and 343i supporting why sprint is good for Halo; along with the reasons you believe have less merit including: immersion, lore, realism, personal preference, etc… I believe all reasons should be considered and weighed equally because this entire debate is (fundamentally) about personal preference).

The issue I have with that is in general, anti-sprinters view prosprinters’ opinions as being either:

a) something to “deconstruct,” “destroy,” “obliterate,” or whatever other distasteful word you want to pick instead; which in reality prosprinters can have and keep whatever opinion about sprint they want to. Just because you disagree with them does not mean you’ve earned any cheap victory you want to make up in your own head.

and/or

b) antisprinters routinely present a false notion that reasons for keeping sprint haven’t been presented when you know darn well they have. You want to aggressively attack every good reason for keeping sprint; therefore clearly, since it’s worthy of your time and effort to fight about it across the hundreds and hundreds of pages worth in these forums full of reasoning for keeping sprint, those prosprint opinions must’ve at least been solid enough for you to argue about… So why then, do you later flip backwards and pretend that those pro sprint reasons don’t exist? They do exist, you just don’t agree with them.

  1. “yet all i see is people taking your exact claims and deconstructing them as to why it isn’t ideal from an anti-sprint perspective,”

-I disagree with this. While I have listened to (and respect) the antisprinters’ personal opinions about this issue, I do not respect the notion that all of mine have been “deconstructed,” because some people disagree.

  1. “I haven’t seen a post in this thread yet of either of you tackling an anti-sprint claim head on or refuting the claim.”

-First of all, the entire purpose of posting in these forums doesn’t have to boil down to refuting other people’s opinions. One does not have to spend their entire time in these forums just trying to “deconstruct,” or “destroy,” or “demolish,” opinions (or whatever other aggressive term you antisprinters want to call it). Secondly, I’ve seen Ragin Pagan literally replying line for line with people, post after post. Also there’s often not enough time or even text available to respond to everyone on every little thing. That doesn’t mean things can’t be responded to, but seriously you need to lower your expectations on what you demand as far as responses go. You just literally took up nearly an entire post with just opinions and open-ended questions.

  1. “In that sense dual wielding, proning, doing backflips like the halo wars cinematic, crazier forms of agility would feel more spartan-esque…things we have seen them do in cinematics.”

-In what sense, exactly? No offense but that doesn’t seem to line up with your previous train of thought so I’m going to assume you meant something different with this. Dual wielding and proning have been discussed in this thread (I believe Ragin Pagan even talked about proning a couple of pages back)- the argument provided was such that going in the prone doesn’t match up with 343i’s intended pace of play for Halo. I mean, honestly this whole argument feels like a stretch - sprinting is (and has been for over a decade) a totally believable and normalized concept in gaming versus doing backflips.

… to be continued (I mean, good lord I can’t even chip the iceberg with my line by line reply here…)