This is insane, and it frightens me how many people in this forum want to keep the Halo 5 mechanics, even if its design is flawed. It has been proven again and again, that the mechanics do not make the game faster when the map has just gone bigger. Its a trick, nothing else. The mechanics make the game slower. The only thing that should stay in the Infinite is dash. Remove sprint and all the other nonsense, and increase movement speed with 10%.
> 2533274794139417;8:
> Iâve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I canât go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If thatâs the case good bye halo I loved u so
This truly makes no sense to me. If you enjoyed the classic gameplay style and focus on map control, grenade placement, and winning gunfights through precision, why would you not like that anymore? It is not a matter of just being âslowâ. The game would be designed around no sprint. Halo 3 is not a âslowâ game. The movement mechanics do a lot more than just speed up your character. They change the focus of the gameplay and I can understand if you like the way new Halo plays better, but I wouldnât characterize it as just faster, and I also think it is undeniable that it is a vastly different experience from Halo 2 and 3.
> 2533274889489936;2:
> As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?
Vast oversimplification.
> 2533274844174765;3422:
> This is insane, and it frightens me how many people in this forum want to keep the Halo 5 mechanics, even if its design is flawed. It has been proven again and again, that the mechanics do not make the game faster when the map has just gone bigger. Its a trick, nothing else. The mechanics make the game slower. The only thing that should stay in the Infinite is dash. Remove sprint and all the other nonsense, and increase movement speed with 10%.
It doesnât matter how many times you âproveâ that halo 5âs mechanics are bad. If people enjoy them more than OG halo, youâre not gonna change their mind. Just like how I could spend forever trying to convince you that Halo 3âs movement is incredibly boring and slow. Nothing would change. Besides, regardless of if you like the mechanics in halo 5 or not, they are still designed and balanced pretty well (save for Spartan charge and ground pound). It increases the skill ceiling and adds another dynamic to the gameplay. Itâs not really fair to just dismiss the new movement because you donât like it.
> 2535466533436400;3425:
> > 2533274844174765;3422:
> > This is insane, and it frightens me how many people in this forum want to keep the Halo 5 mechanics, even if its design is flawed. It has been proven again and again, that the mechanics do not make the game faster when the map has just gone bigger. Its a trick, nothing else. The mechanics make the game slower. The only thing that should stay in the Infinite is dash. Remove sprint and all the other nonsense, and increase movement speed with 10%.
>
> It doesnât matter how many times you âproveâ that halo 5âs mechanics are bad. If people enjoy them more than OG halo, youâre not gonna change their mind. Just like how I could spend forever trying to convince you that Halo 3âs movement is incredibly boring and slow. Nothing would change. Besides, regardless of if you like the mechanics in halo 5 or not, they are still designed and balanced pretty well (save for Spartan charge and ground pound). It increases the skill ceiling and adds another dynamic to the gameplay. Itâs not really fair to just dismiss the new movement because you donât like it.
If this goes beyond just liking it or not liking it and they are objectively well designed and balance, that means someone can prove that itâs well designed or not well designed, which is what that guy claimed has happened. Especially since you can measure speed, so you can absolutely be right/wrong in saying Halo 3 is slow (boring is entirely subjective)
Arenât you doing the same thing, dismissing his solution just because you do like the mechanics?
> 2533274829873463;6:
> > 2535449076192416;1:
> > There is absolutely no way this game wonât have the classic gameplay the oldest of Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!
>
> As long as ground pound, spartan charge arenât there then I donât mind as much but surely they should increase the movement speed instead of the sprint, not a fan of being slowed down to a half just because someone shot at me.
I think your completely right, personally i could not mind see the boost removed as well. Keep the sprint and maybe the slide, but the boosting needs to go.
> 2533274833081329;3426:
> > 2535466533436400;3425:
> > > 2533274844174765;3422:
> > > This is insane, and it frightens me how many people in this forum want to keep the Halo 5 mechanics, even if its design is flawed. It has been proven again and again, that the mechanics do not make the game faster when the map has just gone bigger. Its a trick, nothing else. The mechanics make the game slower. The only thing that should stay in the Infinite is dash. Remove sprint and all the other nonsense, and increase movement speed with 10%.
> >
> > It doesnât matter how many times you âproveâ that halo 5âs mechanics are bad. If people enjoy them more than OG halo, youâre not gonna change their mind. Just like how I could spend forever trying to convince you that Halo 3âs movement is incredibly boring and slow. Nothing would change. Besides, regardless of if you like the mechanics in halo 5 or not, they are still designed and balanced pretty well (save for Spartan charge and ground pound). It increases the skill ceiling and adds another dynamic to the gameplay. Itâs not really fair to just dismiss the new movement because you donât like it.
>
> If this goes beyond just liking it or not liking it and they are objectively well designed and balance, that means someone can prove that itâs well designed or not well designed, which is what that guy claimed has happened. Especially since you can measure speed, so you can absolutely be right/wrong in saying Halo 3 is slow (boring is entirely subjective)
>
> Arenât you doing the same thing, dismissing his solution just because you do like the mechanics?
No, Iâm not. Because regardless of if you think the mechanics should be in a halo game, pretty much everyone agrees that the game is fundamentally well designed, and the game has been praised because of that. Iâm not dismissing his solution, because frankly Iâll buy the next halo game no matter what design philosophy they decide to go with. I happen to disagree with him, but I never said that his idea was insane or nonsense, like he said about those who would prefer a halo game with enhanced mobility.
> 2535466533436400;3428:
> No, Iâm not. Because regardless of if you think the mechanics should be in a halo game, pretty much everyone agrees that the game is fundamentally well designed, and the game has been praised because of that.
This sounds like an awfully naive statement to make in a thread asking for the return of classic movement mechanics that has reached over 3,000 posts. Where a number of people have literally described in great detail why they believe Spartan Abilities are not well designed. One would have to have lived under a rock to believe that there exists any degree of consensus over the quality of design of Halo 5. And Iâm not saying this as an attempt to shed doubts on your beliefs. If you like to think Halo 5 is a fundamentally well designed game with elegant and deep gameplay mechanics, immaculate balance, and ingenious level design, then good for you. But to think that âpretty much everyoneâ agrees with you on those opinions⌠well, one can dream.
Of course, you are technically correct that there do indeed exist people who have praised Halo 5 for those reasons. However, if we consider the general reception of the game, it seems fairly mediocre. In the press, it has a Metacritic score of 84, which is about what youâd expect from your run of the mill triple-A game that doesnât completely botch things up. It is the lowest Metacritic core any of the main series Halo titles have received. In terms of the general gaming public, we of course donât have any clear figures, but we can at the very least say that it has not attained any sort of widespread acknowledgment like, say, the Doom reboots have done, anything suggesting it had done anything worthy of acknowledgement. Within the Halo community, of course, there is a strong divide between fans of classic mechanics and Halo 5 mechanics, which has spawned debates like this thread and its spiritual predecessor, the 838 pages long sprint discussion thread. So, considering the overall reception of Halo 5 across these different subcategories, I would personally rather characterize it as âcontroversialâ.
> 2533274825830455;3429:
> > 2535466533436400;3428:
> > No, Iâm not. Because regardless of if you think the mechanics should be in a halo game, pretty much everyone agrees that the game is fundamentally well designed, and the game has been praised because of that.
>
> This sounds like an awfully naive statement to make in a thread asking for the return of classic movement mechanics that has reached over 3,000 posts. Where a number of people have literally described in great detail why they believe Spartan Abilities are not well designed. One would have to have lived under a rock to believe that there exists any degree of consensus over the quality of design of Halo 5. And Iâm not saying this as an attempt to shed doubts on your beliefs. If you like to think Halo 5 is a fundamentally well designed game with elegant and deep gameplay mechanics, immaculate balance, and ingenious level design, then good for you. But to think that âpretty much everyoneâ agrees with you on those opinions⌠well, one can dream.
>
> Of course, you are technically correct that there do indeed exist people who have praised Halo 5 for those reasons. However, if we consider the general reception of the game, it seems fairly mediocre. In the press, it has a Metacritic score of 84, which is about what youâd expect from your run of the mill triple-A game that doesnât completely botch things up. It is the lowest Metacritic core any of the main series Halo titles have received. In terms of the general gaming public, we of course donât have any clear figures, but we can at the very least say that it has not attained any sort of widespread acknowledgment like, say, the Doom reboots have done, anything suggesting it had done anything worthy of acknowledgement. Within the Halo community, of course, there is a strong divide between fans of classic mechanics and Halo 5 mechanics, which has spawned debates like this thread and its spiritual predecessor, the 838 pages long sprint discussion thread. So, considering the overall reception of Halo 5 across these different subcategories, I would personally rather characterize it as âcontroversialâ.
I guess Iâm not getting my point across well. I totally understand that compared to past halo games, halo 5 doesnât fit in at all. And yeah, for a classic halo game, halo 5s movement is indeed poorly designed. It doesnât play the same way and obviously people are free to despise the newer direction of gameplay. People can describe why they think the abilities are poorly designed, or why theyâre great, and from the size of this thread itâs clear that people are making their stances known. What Iâm trying to say had nothing to do with my personal opinion. Obviously itâs clear that I prefer the new abilities, but what Iâm trying to get people to do is think of halo 5 in a vacuum. Forget about the other games, because Iâm not arguing whether halo 5 is better or worse than them; thatâs entirely subjective, and I know I wouldnât ever be able to change anyoneâs opinion on a game they either love or hate. Halo 5, by itself, compared to other advanced movement games in the industry, is well designed. The controls are tight and everything is smooth and flows well together. Iâve seen several videos by you tubers (Favyn and I think raycevick) who prefer the old movement, but still praise the quality of the actual design and mechanics of the game. They even say that the if it wasnât a halo game, theyâd probably really enjoy it. The whole point of my argument isnât that halo 5 is objectively better designed than classic halos, just that is a generally well designed game. I also never brought up map design, so I donât know why you mentioned it. Honestly I agree that most of the maps in halo 5 are pretty lacking.
From what 343 have said and showed of halo infinite so far, it will probably be a cross between classic and advanced movement mechanics. Thatâs how the art style looks and 343 have said they do not want to abandon what Halo 4 and Halo 5 did. So I am expecting them to keep the more crucial Spartan abilities such as Sprint and clamber, but remove some of the annoying ones such as Spartan charge and ground pound.
> 2535466533436400;3430:
> Halo 5, by itself, compared to other advanced movement games in the industry, is well designed. The controls are tight and everything is smooth and flows well together. Iâve seen several videos by you tubers (Favyn and I think raycevick) who prefer the old movement, but still praise the quality of the actual design and mechanics of the game.
>
> They even say that the if it wasnât a halo game, theyâd probably really enjoy it. The whole point of my argument isnât that halo 5 is objectively better designed than classic halos, just that is a generally well designed game.
Sure, the quality of polish is fine. There are no glaring bugs thatâd make the Spartan Abilities feel janky, if thatâs what you mean. But I could say the same about Titanfall, a game I didnât particularly care for either. It feels to me like youâre describing the minimum standard any game should attain with its mechanics. Itâs always nice, of course, but thatâs all it is.
It is also a very narrow slice of the gameâs design youâre talking about. âQuality of the actual designâ is a misleading phrase because it sounds too broad. I say âquality of polishâ, because thatâs what it is if weâre only talking about the perceived smoothness of the movement. âQuality of designâ to me includes not only how the mechanics accomplish what they were designed for, but also the kind of gameplay they create and whether they deserve to even exist, all of which is of course entirely subjective.
See, many of the criticisms I have for Spartan Abilities are not fundamentally tied to Halo. For example, the notion that sprinting forces the player out of combat is a generic criticism that applies to any game that tries to make movement and combat work together. It is fine in games where movement isnât the point, and in games where there are no weapons. But I just see it as incredibly clumsy design in a game that tries to marry the two. Halo being such a game is just more or less coincidental.
There is a similar deal with Clamber. Ignore reasons I want it removed altogether, since those are probably more ingrained in particulars of Halo. But the same argument about there being an animation that forces the player out of combat still applies. And indeed, there would be an halfway solution that does the same thing without an animation, and could cover up to knee-height misses without looking weird. If we give up being able look in any direction while jumping, you could retaini the climb height of Clamber while still allowing firing during the animation. Then there is of course the old double jump, which avoids all this.
Then there exists broader criticisms about the Spartan Ability sandbox as a whole. There are literally three abilities designed with the purpose of moving the player forward: Slide, Sprint, Thruster Pack. This kind of redundancy is just pointless and inelegant. Instead you could, for example, have a single button that makes the player roll like Evade in Reach when on the ground, and thrust when in air, combining the functionality of these three abilities into one. I can also criticize Stabilizer for being pointless and not really adding much value to gameplay, because I donât see any value in getting more air time to aim.
Of the previous three paragraphs, the first two apply to any movement oriented shooter, and the last is just a general statement. None of them pertain to these abilities being in a Halo game. And indeed, I can say that if Halo 5 werenât a Halo game, I still wouldnât enjoy it. It is generally a very bland game that tries to do the same everyone and their dog were trying to do a few years ago before they got distracted by Battle Royale games.
> 2535466533436400;3430:
> I also never brought up map design, so I donât know why you mentioned it. Honestly I agree that most of the maps in halo 5 are pretty lacking.
Because I needed a list of three things for rhetorical purposes, and also because if we were talking about a game being âgenerally well designedâ, level design factors into it.
Just thought about something⌠what if there was a âhustleâ button⌠rather than sprint⌠where:
if you are moving and hit the hustle button you run faster ⌠the trade off is your accuracy slightly decreases. (You can still shoot)
Hustling and then jumping gives you a slightly higher jump.
Thoughts?
Initially I was also thinking about hitting hustle before moving and then moving makes you evade⌠and hitting hustle and staying still helps you stay in position ⌠perhaps used to slow down a slide down the side of a cliff⌠or help keep the blast of a grenade bumping you off the side of a cliff. I even thought about the hustle while staying still acting like focusing on the task being accomplished and giving it more attention ⌠where it would even enchanted accuracy a bit when standing stillâŚ
but for all the latter of suggestions I can imagine them being controversial⌠so whatâs your opinion on the hustle?
> 2535425992673755;3433:
> You guys should watch this video
>
> Enhanced Mobility is NOT a Lie in 90 Seconds - YouTube
Iâll give him credit thatâs a very well made video. Iâll be honest I still personally prefer classic movement, but he does make some very good arguments. Iâm definitely not opposed to a hybrid of gameplay between something like Halo 5 and Halo 2.
I understand liking halo 4 or 5 for whatever reason, and you are not wrong or bad for liking these games. The indisputable FACT is Halo is nowhere near as possible as it was before. This drop in popularity canât be credited to âbad marketingâ or âlack of content to keep people playingâ it is because the game changed so fast so quickly alienating a huge portion of the fan base. If halo 5 was the be all end all of games and the movement and art style is loved, why do we see 343 returning to the old art style in infinite? Obviously I canât be certain about gameplay, but given the mythic arena playlist in halo 5 which toned down movement to only thrust and hover, and the backlash theyâve been receiving for SAâs it wouldnât be a long shot to speculate they are moving to a similar more classic inspired game. Their version of halo hasnât worked out. Personally liking the games doesnât change this
> 2533274833081329;3404:
> > 2535441307847473;3402:
> > > 2533274833081329;3400:
> > > > 2533274796308956;3399:
> > > > But after playing H5 and jumping back into reach on MCC, itâs best to leave the old mechanics in the past. Advance movement is what makes the modern halo original.
> > >
> > > But Halo 5 took back the old mechanics after the events of Halo 4.
> > >
> > > Halo 4 was the one that tried to be the most original, so Halo 5 is inherently proving that statement wrong.
> > >
> > > And this is coming from the same community that desperately craves Dual Wielding and playing as Elites, two âold mechanicsâ
> >
> > Halo 4 was anything but original, virtually all of its âoriginalâ features were just blatant copies of CODâs mechanics. They even went as far as to change the value of a kill from 1 point to 10 points.
> >
> > I also donât know what you mean when you say that Halo 5 took back the old mechanics. It kept sprint, added ADS, and a bunch of other âadvancedâ movement mechanics that had nothing to do with Halo while leaving stuff like equipment, duel wielding, and playable elites behind.
>
> Sounds like original mechanics to the Halo series to me - things that a shooter needed to be ârelevantâ and popular for players that played other shooters to keep them around.
>
> For all intents and purposes Halo 4 was the most âinnovativeâ game in the series because it simply added so many of these mechanics that people expected to see in their popular shooterâŚnow if only Halo 4 remained a popular shooterâŚ
>
> I say Halo 5 took back the old mechanics because it got rid of those Halo 4 mechanics. Timed and predictable spawns, even starts, fighting for limited power weapons on the map, etc. etc.
>
> Thatâs why I canât take anyone who says that modern Halo ditches the old mechanics when the majority of Halo 5âs success was sticking to the old mechanics this time.
Yes they had fair starts and power weapons were picked up in the map. But the spartan abilities completely turned halos gameplay on its head and changed how it played.
> 2533274888477235;3436:
> I understand liking halo 4 or 5 for whatever reason, and you are not wrong or bad for liking these games. The indisputable FACT is Halo is nowhere near as possible as it was before. This drop in popularity canât be credited to âbad marketingâ or âlack of content to keep people playingâ it is because the game changed so fast so quickly alienating a huge portion of the fan base. If halo 5 was the be all end all of games and the movement and art style is loved, why do we see 343 returning to the old art style in infinite? Obviously I canât be certain about gameplay, but given the mythic arena playlist in halo 5 which toned down movement to only thrust and hover, and the backlash theyâve been receiving for SAâs it wouldnât be a long shot to speculate they are moving to a similar more classic inspired game. Their version of halo hasnât worked out. Personally liking the games doesnât change this
You canât just attribute the drop in popularity to gameplay either, there are so many more online games than there were during the halo 2 & 3 era. Even if you just count polished AAA shooters there is 10 times the competition than there used to be.
> 2533274826349616;3438:
> > 2533274888477235;3436:
> > I understand liking halo 4 or 5 for whatever reason, and you are not wrong or bad for liking these games. The indisputable FACT is Halo is nowhere near as possible as it was before. This drop in popularity canât be credited to âbad marketingâ or âlack of content to keep people playingâ it is because the game changed so fast so quickly alienating a huge portion of the fan base. If halo 5 was the be all end all of games and the movement and art style is loved, why do we see 343 returning to the old art style in infinite? Obviously I canât be certain about gameplay, but given the mythic arena playlist in halo 5 which toned down movement to only thrust and hover, and the backlash theyâve been receiving for SAâs it wouldnât be a long shot to speculate they are moving to a similar more classic inspired game. Their version of halo hasnât worked out. Personally liking the games doesnât change this
>
> You canât just attribute the drop in popularity to gameplay either, there are so many more online games than there were during the halo 2 & 3 era. Even if you just count polished AAA shooters there is 10 times the competition than there used to be.
Here we are again.
Youâve got plenty of games which are incredibly old, but still retain big populations.
Not to mention Halo CE competed against PC and PS. Heck, CS was as relevant during the Halo 2 days, as it is now, during the Halo 5 days, if not even more relevant now.
What competition is there now which actually make a difference? As opposed to, say 2007, which many regard as one of the golden years of gaming. Due to the diverse games released back then.
> 2535425992673755;3433:
> You guys should watch this video
>
> Enhanced Mobility is NOT a Lie in 90 Seconds - YouTube
I always appreciate the attitude with which ShyWay presents his opinions, as well as the fact that he understands the nuances of Spartan Abilities. However, the arguments in this video arenât very convincing. When it comes to shooting while moving, the essence of his argument is âitâs totally possible to maintain momentum while shooting; you just need to shoot in the same direction youâre moving and push all these extra buttons between every shotâ, which isnât the most convincing argument if you want to show that Sprint doesnât restrict combat. Indeed, the biggest issue for the argument is the fact that all the tricks you can use to conserve momentum in Halo 5 only apply to forward movement. As soon as you need to shoot or throw a grenade in a direction different from where you want to go, none of the tricks presented here work. Arguably, this is the more relevant type of movement, since you rarely actually want to be moving towards the opponent in combat.
The Clamber argument has a similar, though less severe, issue: âitâs totally possible to not use Clamber for most jumps; you just need to perform this a bit more cumbersome jumpâ. Maybe youâll enjoy that if youâre into finger dexterity challenges, but showing how cumbersome movement that is completely standard in classic Halo can be in Halo 5 isnât really going to win people over or convince them that Clamber is not an unnecessary restriction.
I also find the whole video a bit of a red herring, since ShyWay actually never does what he set out to do. He lists three arguments that he says he will counter. Transcribed word for word from his video, the arguments he stated he would counter are
- âSprinting restricts your ability to shoot and throw 'nades, while in classic Halo you could move at top speed while shooting at the same timeâ - "The game isnât faster. It has the illusion of being faster because the maps are so much larger. If you compare Midship to Truth, for example, youâre clearing the same portion of map in the same amount of time. - "Clamber punishes you for moving around the map. Youâre locked into a pointless animation, and you should never be locked into an animation when traversing the map. Forcing players to face the ledge and lower the gun is an unnecessary restriction"For the first argument, ShyWay shows that in some limited scenarios you can conserve momentum to fire a shot while technically moving at top speed. But he also acknowledges that you lose all that momentum almost immediately after coming out of the animation. You cannot, for example, fire multiple shots at top speed, so you are indeed more restricted than in classic Halo. Therefore the argument as written down has not been countered. Beyond that, as mentioned above, the original argument includes a part that ShyWay left out, which was that Halo 5 doesnât allow you to move at top speed in any direction, only forward. But, though in the original video, in his defense, this was not an argument ShyWay sought to counter.
The second argument is entirely unaddressed in the video, because ShyWay never actually shows that you can go from base to base on Truth significantly (say 10%) faster than the same route on Midship (which is what would be needed to counter the claim that this takes the same amount of time). This might be possible repeating a sprintâthrustâslideâjump combo, but Iâm fairly certain it is not possible just by sprinting.
The first sentence of the third argument is a fact insofar as you need to use Clamber (and you sometimes do), so there is no way to counter it. The fact that you can circumvent Clamber on some jumps doesnât change the fact that when you do need to use Clamber, you are forced into an animation. The other two sentences are subjective, so thereâs nothing to counter there.
The video contains a number of interesting comments, completely unrelated to to the above three arguments, showcasing the different ways in which Sprint an Clamber can be used. The Clamber ledge tricks are totally valid as defenses of Clamber and there are no issues with those (though I again want to emphasize that they donât actually relate to the above three arguments in any way). However, I want to point out that the trick of sprinting and thrusting towards a curved surface is only a quirk of Halo 5 physics. It is entirely possible to design a boost mechanic (e.g., Thruster Pack) that can do the same without the need for Sprint. Indeed, this trick appeared first time in Halo with Evade in Reach. It is not a point in favor of Sprint, but a point in favor of a forward boost mechanic. In fact, the trick would actually be more interesting if it was possible without Sprint, because then it could be done facing any direction.
> 2533274925072192;3423:
> > 2533274794139417;8:
> > Iâve been playing halo since the OG xbox but if sprint gone so am I. I canât go back to the slow movement of halo 3. If thatâs the case good bye halo I loved u so
>
> This truly makes no sense to me. If you enjoyed the classic gameplay style and focus on map control, grenade placement, and winning gunfights through precision, why would you not like that anymore? It is not a matter of just being âslowâ. The game would be designed around no sprint. Halo 3 is not a âslowâ game. The movement mechanics do a lot more than just speed up your character. They change the focus of the gameplay and I can understand if you like the way new Halo plays better, but I wouldnât characterize it as just faster, and I also think it is undeniable that it is a vastly different experience from Halo 2 and 3.
im sorry but halo 3 is slow as f. From point a to point b on exp avalanche is frustraring. And its 2020,so yeah, i Will only accept no sprint with thruster pack.