The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> 2533274825830455;3180:
> > 2533274945422049;3178:
> > But no present day classic halo exists.
>
> Exactly, which is why the claim that most people prefer classic Halo is dubious.

Many people that played the classic games at their time said the prefer those over the “advanced” current style. An analysis of classic setting like custom game prevelancy in halo 5 could give answers. If 343 would introduce mythic arena as a main stay playlist ( and adds a social game counterpart) we could analyse the actual preference in the player pool. This could test whether the players that accepted to buy halo 5 based on the marketed gameplay style would like classic gameplay or not. If this style prevails, switching to it is the best option, as it would retain the player count, regain old players and would gain new players that want to play a core halo experience insted of a main line shooter. The relative unpopularity of halo 5 shows that the approaching of the main line sprint based movement system was not enough to win over fans of this genre, and a further doubling down would likely not achieve gains in this area without making halo indistinct to these games, and thereby removing halo’s need to exist, killing it.

The claim that halo might do better with a more mechanicaly condensed but situationaly emergent loop that is more distinct from other games is valid.

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> 2533274945422049;3182:
> The claim that halo might do better with a more mechanicaly condensed but situationaly emergent loop that is more distinct from other games is valid.

Of course it likely might be possible that there is a nonzero probability that Halo could potentially do better with a more mechanically condensed but situationally emergent loop that is more distinct from other games, but this wasn’t the claim I was adressing. I was adressing the very definite claim “the people who are for classic halo and no sprint would outnumber the ones are against it 3:1”.

> 2783251376877086;3181:
> When the community has to make their own classic experience states there’s at least some thirst for it. As far as for most of the community, I can’t say. What would be a good way to judge that from your viewpoint?

If I had a good way, I’d already have the answer. If there was a reliable way to gauge preferences across the whole community of people who play video games, we wouldn’t be having this discussion because Halo would still be tremendously successful. It’s not like 343i is trying to make games with mediocre performance.

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> 2533274825830455;3183:
> > 2533274945422049;3182:
> > The claim that halo might do better with a more mechanicaly condensed but situationaly emergent loop that is more distinct from other games is valid.
>
> Of course it likely might be possible that there is a nonzero probability that Halo could potentially do better with a more mechanically condensed but situationally emergent loop that is more distinct from other games, but this wasn’t the claim I was adressing. I was adressing the very definite claim “the people who are for classic halo and no sprint would outnumber the ones are against it 3:1”.
>
>
>
>
> > 2783251376877086;3181:
> > When the community has to make their own classic experience states there’s at least some thirst for it. As far as for most of the community, I can’t say. What would be a good way to judge that from your viewpoint?
>
> If I had a good way, I’d already have the answer. If there was a reliable way to gauge preferences across the whole community of people who play video games, we wouldn’t be having this discussion because Halo would still be tremendously successful. It’s not like 343i is trying to make games with mediocre performance.

the 3:1 number is definitely blown out of proportion.

my post on classic or hybrid gameplay was formulated badly. i ment “im certain the classic/ hybrid gameplay would create a bigger player base than keeping or doubling down on advanced/ mainline mechanics”.

i propose a permanent mythic playlist in both competitive and social to gauge the current populations liking of more classic mechanics.

The population between halo 4 and 5 could be compared. if halo 4 is seen as less classic than halo 5 a trend can be set up by comparing the sales. this trend could account for an +/- error by player frustration. this in combination with the mythic playlist data could bring clearity to the debate

3185

Slowly warming to the possibility of no sprint.

:slight_smile:

The notion that the -Yoink- teleportation knights are a result of sprint is something bitter to chew over.

But I’m still for enhance mobility as a whole (boo hiss to games centred around static map control).

How about;

  1. Lots of armour abilities (both innate and as pick ups).
  2. All available to every player.
  3. But limited to use via an armour ability energy bar.

Each ability would have it’s own energy cost, delay to recharge, and recharge speed (so the sandbox can be easily tweaked to keep them balanced and used frugally). Use up your energy bar doing fancy things to get to a fight and you may not have enough left to thrust out of the way of the incoming shot.

Abilities could include sprint (but in very short bursts with guns up), thrust, clamber, and ground pound.

We could then bring back old ones like bubble shield (yes please) and radar jamming etc.

And new ones like a 180 degree spin… or a brief shield surge… or a single radar pulse that shows stationary enemies.

The mechanic at least lends itself to being versatile. New abilities can be phased in or out as needed.

And as a bonus (for me at least) - fall damage could be reintroduced - your fall is cushioned using your armour energy (and only if this is empty then you actually take damage or seize up momentarily).

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Has this thread gotten to the point where its too late to matter. The game is releasing this holiday. By this time in Halo 5 life cycle, we would have already finished the mp beta a month ago. This means the movement mechanics must have been decided long ago with the map design to go with them. I think development on the game has to be way past changing huge mechanics. Like if Sprint was not in it now, they won’t be able to put it in and vice versa.

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> 2533274820483063;3186:
> Has this thread gotten to the point where its too late to matter. The game is releasing this holiday. By this time in Halo 5 life cycle, we would have already finished the mp beta a month ago. This means the movement mechanics must have been decided long ago with the map design to go with them. I think development on the game has to be way past changing huge mechanics. Like if Sprint was not in it now, they won’t be able to put it in and vice versa.

It all boils down to them not releasing any gameplay footage yet, and the fact that this is realistically Halo’s last chance to make a comeback. It’s been a long wait and we’re really just eager for an answer and we really want Halo Infinite to succeed so we can’t help but discuss how.

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> 2535441307847473;3187:
> > 2533274820483063;3186:
> > Has this thread gotten to the point where its too late to matter. The game is releasing this holiday. By this time in Halo 5 life cycle, we would have already finished the mp beta a month ago. This means the movement mechanics must have been decided long ago with the map design to go with them. I think development on the game has to be way past changing huge mechanics. Like if Sprint was not in it now, they won’t be able to put it in and vice versa.
>
> It all boils down to them not releasing any gameplay footage yet, and the fact that this is realistically Halo’s last chance to make a comeback. It’s been a long wait and we’re really just eager for an answer and we really want Halo Infinite to succeed so we can’t help but discuss how.

And it would be a very boring forum if we just sat back and waited…

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> 2585548714655118;3185:
> But I’m still for enhance mobility as a whole (boo hiss to games centred around static map control).

As has been noted several times before.
That comes down to map design, and not in what way you traverse the map.

> 2585548714655118;3185:
> 3. But limited to use via an armour ability energy bar.

And this could quite likely lead to slower paced matches. Either players conserve energy, moving about on maps designed for the movement abilities, or they spend it all on moving, and encounters can go either way because weapons and such have been balanced around players performing all kinds of dodging manouvers.

Then depending on map layouts and so forth, it could lead to increased camping as players may want to keep energy for fights, and wait at certain locations to pick off pöayers using their energy for movement.
And again, depending on map design, players may overall choose to bunker down at certain places in order to have an energy advantage if opponents have to use energy yo get places.

I don’t really see the point in this kind of restriction.

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> 2585548714655118;3185:
> The notion that the -Yoink- teleportation knights are a result of sprint is something bitter to chew over.

I mean, I’m not saying that they were designed this way just because of sprint. But I am fairly certain that the movement mechanics affected frequency and cooldown of the teleport mechanic and indirectly also the shield strength, as an extension of the weapon balancing.
Although keep in mind that the knights initially didn’t even have teleport but instead rolled into a ball, Metroid-style. That and the fact that 343’s initial Halo 4 concept was scrapped for being “too traditional” makes me at least wonder how much the movement abilities really affected enemy design.

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> 2533274795123910;3189:
> > 2585548714655118;3185:
> > But I’m still for enhance mobility as a whole (boo hiss to games centred around static map control).
>
> As has been noted several times before.
> That comes down to map design, and not in what way you traverse the map.
>
>
>
>
> > 2585548714655118;3185:
> > 3. But limited to use via an armour ability energy bar.
>
> And this could quite likely lead to slower paced matches. Either players conserve energy, moving about on maps designed for the movement abilities, or they spend it all on moving, and encounters can go either way because weapons and such have been balanced around players performing all kinds of dodging manouvers.
>
> Then depending on map layouts and so forth, it could lead to increased camping as players may want to keep energy for fights, and wait at certain locations to pick off pöayers using their energy for movement.
> And again, depending on map design, players may overall choose to bunker down at certain places in order to have an energy advantage if opponents have to use energy yo get places.
>
> I don’t really see the point in this kind of restriction.

the movement mechanics and equipement shouldn’t pull from the same bar. the movement should be based on mythic arena. the equipement should be h3 equipement with multiple charges ( the amout of charges balances the ability) and cooldowns.

3192

> 2533274801176260;3190:
> > 2585548714655118;3185:
> > The notion that the -Yoink- teleportation knights are a result of sprint is something bitter to chew over.
>
> I mean, I’m not saying that they were designed this way just because of sprint. But I am fairly certain that the movement mechanics affected frequency and cooldown of the teleport mechanic and indirectly also the shield strength, as an extension of the weapon balancing.
> Although keep in mind that the knights initially didn’t even have teleport but instead rolled into a ball, Metroid-style. That and the fact that 343’s initial Halo 4 concept was scrapped for being “too traditional” makes me at least wonder how much the movement abilities really affected enemy design.

The promethean design shown in this prototype and the morphball knights are really cool. i hope halo infinite uses this design as a medium enemy between knights and soldiers. i hope the more classic promethean design elements shown in this video get included into halo infinite.

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The thing about the mythic playlist is that I wouldn’t even call it “hybrid” or a “mix between old and new” or a “mix between classic and modern”, see, the problem starts here for me and this is why I refuse to call the thing I’m looking for “classic”.

The issue lies in the name. Things like thrusters doesn’t really go against the run & gun movement (at least not in my eyes), so it technically can / is a part of the run & gun movement. Just because you add something new into the pool, it doesn’t automatically mean that it’s from the “opposite” (in this case H5s movement system) site.
Or to put it more simply: I don’t see thrusters as a change, I can see it as a step up (It can be, I’m not saying that it absolutely has to be in the game), unlike Sprint. Because Sprint was never an evolution, it was just something different, not a step up.

And as many people have said earlier, we really have to stop thinking that movement is just tied to your player. Movement in a game is just so much more. I mean, despite the fact that I hate Fortnite - isn’t the building mechanic a part of the movement / map traversal? It’s not just about animations, it’s the whole map and how the whole landscape can change by player interactions.

This is what should reflect back to Halo: Dynamique Map Elements, Man Cannons, Teleporters, Vehicles & Gamemodes*. And one aspect that in my eyes is fairly underrated: Weapons, which brings me to my next point.

The thing is: We don’t even have to abandon everything. If you really dig into the topic, you will get more and more ideas. Hell, you could even add depth to movement & your weapon sandbox at the same time. Remember the most hated ability called ground pound? Instead of beeing a base ability, tie it into a weapon that would really fit the mechanic: Maybe the gravity hammer? The longer you press it, the more damage it will do when you land. The good thing about tying things up to the weapon is: It just affects one weapon and the maps you place them on - not the base game.
To make the Gravity Hammer and Energy Sword even more differentiate from another you could make it so that while the energy sword doesn’t have the “impact” (from above) of the gravity hammer, you would get a slight BMS Boost.

*Gamemodes: What do I mean by that? Team Reign (CE), Team Muskets on Concept Maps like Chiron, Roaming King from H5, KOTH. It doesn’t matter if we like / dislike those gamemodes or the maps in which we play them on, it just proves that it’s totally up to the developer to “force” the players to move around the map or not, there are gamemodes from CE / 2 / 3, as well as H5, so Abilities are totally irrelevant when it comes to camping.

To Equipment / Armour Abilities: I really don’t want to see Armour Abilities back, neither as loadouts, nor as pick ups. Instead of Armour Abilities, I’d just improve Equipments. The biggest difference between Armour Abilities & Equipment (as map pick ups) is: Everyone can benefit from Equipment (even the enemy, if you place them poorly), you’re just the one who decides where to place it. On the other hand just one player can benefit from Armour Abilities, which makes it basicially just a Power Up and I really don’t see much space for Power Ups except Camo, Overshield & BMS Boost.
I mean take Jet Packs as an example (Pick up). You would have to design a whole map around it, but just one player will have access to those spots. Instead of a Jet Pack, use the gravity lift equipment on that map and improve it. Maybe the guy that picks up the equipment has 3 gravity lifts or he is the “owner” of the gravity lift for 2 mins: Which means, you place it on Spot A, and within the 2 minutes you are able to put that gravity lift to another spot.
I mean this is just one specific suggestion and nothing set in stone, there are literally hundreds of possibilities, it’s up to the developers to make them fit into the maps.

One last point: I disagree with the argument that the run & gun ("classic) movement is just about holding specific positions on a map. Especially as someone who regularly plays CE, I really disagree. It is totally up to the map design & the gametype.

TL:DR: Run & Gun movement is essential for me (Thrusters are / can a part of it in my eyes), give the power to the map, vehicles, man cannon, teleporter, weapons, dynamique map elements and so on. Let every map be it’s own, unique experience, improve on Map Pickups (Equipment & Power Ups), add depth into the Weapon Sandbox by tying in Movement to all the aspects that have been mentioned above.

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> 2533274945422049;3184:
> The population between halo 4 and 5 could be compared. if halo 4 is seen as less classic than halo 5 a trend can be set up by comparing the sales. this trend could account for an +/- error by player frustration. this in combination with the mythic playlist data could bring clearity to the debate

I feel like you’re going to run into some fundamental disagreements regarding whether Halo 4 is more or less classic than Halo 5. One can make the case that Halo 4 is philosophically less classic because it tries to be a class-based shooter and erodes the role of map control. On the other hand, one can make the case that Halo 5 is less classic in moment to moment gameplay where the player constantly has to be using this relatively huge array of movement abilities. Both are completely reasonable perspectives to have, depending on what you prioritize. Really, if you compare Halo 4 and 5, you’re only going find which of them is more popular.

There are other issues that come into play here too. We’re talking here as if the gameplay exists in a vacuum, but that just isn’t the case. After all, there is the whole rest of the game. For example, if Halo 5 is less popular than Halo 4, one can easily say that it could be the marketing that put people off, or the microtransactions. Or if it is more popular, one can say it could be thanks to Warzone, or the new Forge.

I’m not sure if one can get more certain information about the popularity of classic Halo than what we already have.

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> 2533274825830455;3194:
> > 2533274945422049;3184:
> > The population between halo 4 and 5 could be compared. if halo 4 is seen as less classic than halo 5 a trend can be set up by comparing the sales. this trend could account for an +/- error by player frustration. this in combination with the mythic playlist data could bring clearity to the debate
>
> I feel like you’re going to run into some fundamental disagreements regarding whether Halo 4 is more or less classic than Halo 5. One can make the case that Halo 4 is philosophically less classic because it tries to be a class-based shooter and erodes the role of map control. On the other hand, one can make the case that Halo 5 is less classic in moment to moment gameplay where the player constantly has to be using this relatively huge array of movement abilities. Both are completely reasonable perspectives to have, depending on what you prioritize. Really, if you compare Halo 4 and 5, you’re only going find which of them is more popular.
>
> There are other issues that come into play here too. We’re talking here as if the gameplay exists in a vacuum, but that just isn’t the case. After all, there is the whole rest of the game. For example, if Halo 5 is less popular than Halo 4, one can easily say that it could be the marketing that put people off, or the microtransactions. Or if it is more popular, one can say it could be thanks to Warzone, or the new Forge.
>
> I’m not sure if one can get more certain information about the popularity of classic Halo than what we already have.

comparing halo 4 and 5 is the closeset comparison between games possible. it is not great.
I consider halo 4 to be less classic at its time, because it followed the long established COD trend of killstreaks, perks and sprint. Halo 5 on the other hand was an early adopter of advanced movement, which was only present in the then new titanfall.

the option of introducing permanent mythic playlists into halo 5 could measure the current players liking of more classic gameplay.
it is reasonable to assume that the players not playing halo 5 either wanted a more classic halo, or a even less classic halo then halo 5.
a secondary playlist with less classic settings ( slightly lowered bms, sprint, faster ttk, no or mythic thrusters (depending on bms)) ( possibly called odst slayer) could be used to gauge the counter point to mythic slayer.

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another cool thing that could be done is some wall ricochet, so you could use it for movement, trick jumps and even climbing in some cases.
if sprint has to be included, i would prefer a long buildup time and limited strafe/ aim acceleration while the weapon is still up. firing would slowly end the sprint. this would make sprint the “more forward speed but less agility” mode insted of the “more overall speed but no shooting” mode. i’d much prefer just an automatic small forward speed boost that kicks in after a few seconds of moving forward at max bms ( the boost would end when you turn your character too fast or strafe to much) .

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> 2533274945422049;3191:
> the movement mechanics and equipement shouldn’t pull from the same bar. the movement should be based on mythic arena. the equipement should be h3 equipement with multiple charges ( the amout of charges balances the ability) and cooldowns.

I’m not following.
Would there be two bars? One for movement and one be for non-movement abilities? And if you pick up something, then it pulls energy from the appropriate bar?

I don’t really see that much of a difference, other than you got somewhat more energy, but are still restricted.
You could use your movement energy to traverse the map and then have none for fights, and you’d then have to resort to non-movement abilities in combat.

The only difference made here is that movement would become less prelevant in combat, and your non-movement abilities / equipment more so.

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I will love to have clamber ability staying and a return of the jetpack. The normal walking like classic games is really great considering the exploration that 343 hinted.

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> 2533274795123910;3197:
> > 2533274945422049;3191:
> > the movement mechanics and equipement shouldn’t pull from the same bar. the movement should be based on mythic arena. the equipement should be h3 equipement with multiple charges ( the amout of charges balances the ability) and cooldowns.
>
> I’m not following.
> Would there be two bars? One for movement and one be for non-movement abilities? And if you pick up something, then it pulls energy from the appropriate bar?
>
> I don’t really see that much of a difference, other than you got somewhat more energy, but are still restricted.
> You could use your movement energy to traverse the map and then have none for fights, and you’d then have to resort to non-movement abilities in combat.
>
> The only difference made here is that movement would become less prelevant in combat, and your non-movement abilities / equipment more so.

the only bar would be the circle of the respective equipement and the number/ percent of charges of it left. maybe the thrusters have a small icon on the hud that indicates that they are recharged or discharged.

The proposed wall bounce and automatic speed increase ( or triggered speed increase with slugish aim, if sprint is to be included (weapons are up!)) have no meters.
The bars i mentioned in the previous post were only the virtual bars the engine keeps track of to determine the status of your abilities and equipement.
Equipement and the thrusters do not use the same charge pool. equipement basicly has its own ammo and overheat linked to the respective item.

3200

> 2533274820483063;3186:
> Has this thread gotten to the point where its too late to matter. The game is releasing this holiday. By this time in Halo 5 life cycle, we would have already finished the mp beta a month ago. This means the movement mechanics must have been decided long ago with the map design to go with them. I think development on the game has to be way past changing huge mechanics. Like if Sprint was not in it now, they won’t be able to put it in and vice versa.

i agree with you.
the dissision that 343 has make about adding sprint or not has been make all and who knows it has been done all last year.
and there not gone chance it more.
and the most players on this thread have maybe forget that a lot off communety members like me wane see WARZONE come back.

and 343 has read all a lot off post’s on the other thread about sprint what has been callt the main thread about sprint.
and it shows there all the communety is split about it about sprint.
and who knows there gone add the halo reach sprint mechanic in the halo game’s that you sprint only for a few sec’s and need to wait a few sec’s after using sprint a cooldown more.

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> 2533274823394867;3200:
> > 2533274820483063;3186:
> > Has this thread gotten to the point where its too late to matter. The game is releasing this holiday. By this time in Halo 5 life cycle, we would have already finished the mp beta a month ago. This means the movement mechanics must have been decided long ago with the map design to go with them. I think development on the game has to be way past changing huge mechanics. Like if Sprint was not in it now, they won’t be able to put it in and vice versa.
>
> i agree with you.
> the dissision that 343 has make about adding sprint or not has been make all and who knows it has been done all last year.
> and there not gone chance it more.
> and the most players on this thread have maybe forget that a lot off communety members like me wane see WARZONE come back.
>
> and 343 has read all a lot off post’s on the other thread about sprint what has been callt the main thread about sprint.
> and it shows there all the communety is split about it about sprint.
> and who knows there gone add the halo reach sprint mechanic in the halo game’s that you sprint only for a few sec’s and need to wait a few sec’s after using sprint a cooldown more.

halo reach and halo 4 sprint has the problem of unfocused map design, as the maps have to be designed for not having sprint and having sprint at the same time (because of the recharge). as a custom game option sprint could remain as remnant code. this would be cool. But it creates more problems than it solves for the halo formula.
seeing how well the mythic arena settings worked in the halo 5 sandbox, disabling sprint and increasing the top bms is no problem. Halo 2 cut sprint only shortly before release and it worked fine.