The return of classic movement mechanics?

[GreaterTirus12]

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*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

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> > Who cares if sprint is in the game? If every game mode has a classic version with no sprint and a version with sprint why does it matter? you don’t want sprint? then play the classic modes. You don’t want sprint in your forge or custom game experiences? then if they add a setting to turn off sprint in those modes just turn it off, You want to play multiplayer with sprint? Hey then go play the modes with sprint enabled. you want sprint in your custom games and forge? well hey leave the sprint setting on
> >
> > Stop with these nonsense threads. If classic playlist launch with the game a long with ones that have sprint no one would feel forced to play something they don’t want to play. its that simple. I don’t want to be forced to play classic setting so you will never see me in any classic playlist
>
> Have you read a single comment in this thread? A classic playlist wouldn’t work because the weapons and maps would be designed for advanced movement, which causes all sorts of problems, as well as the classic Halo fans feeling like ‘2nd class citizens’ because they are getting the lesser treatment the modern fans are getting. It wouldn’t be equal in the slightest, unless 343 made special weapons and maps for each style of movement, resulting in them basically selling 2 games in 1, which wouldn’t supply enough content for both types of players to be satisfied, leaving no one happy. It just wouldn’t work.

read my thread “What this game needs to succeed” I type detailed ways on what I think can solve it, got locked for no reason and most likely sure my comment will be deleted or edited by a monitor for no reason also … They can make maps for classic and non classic modes it is not that hard to do , ive made maps solo in unreal engine 4 for prototypes in a reasonable amount of time, they have a huge team that can do it easily. Make some maps that work for both modes, make some maps specifically for classic, make some that are fit for sprint. all I want is sprint still in the game so im using it as an example. I don’t care if thruster packs aren’t added but give me sprint and maybe vaulting… I don’t know how weapons would play a role when it comes to movement as it seems like a different thing entirely

[Apoll0]

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> > Who cares if sprint is in the game? If every game mode has a classic version with no sprint and a version with sprint why does it matter? you don’t want sprint? then play the classic modes. You don’t want sprint in your forge or custom game experiences? then if they add a setting to turn off sprint in those modes just turn it off, You want to play multiplayer with sprint? Hey then go play the modes with sprint enabled. you want sprint in your custom games and forge? well hey leave the sprint setting on
> >
> > Stop with these nonsense threads. If classic playlist launch with the game a long with ones that have sprint no one would feel forced to play something they don’t want to play. its that simple. I don’t want to be forced to play classic setting so you will never see me in any classic playlist
>
> Have you read a single comment in this thread? A classic playlist wouldn’t work because the weapons and maps would be designed for advanced movement, which causes all sorts of problems, as well as the classic Halo fans feeling like ‘2nd class citizens’ because they are getting the lesser treatment the modern fans are getting. It wouldn’t be equal in the slightest, unless 343 made special weapons and maps for each style of movement, resulting in them basically selling 2 games in 1, which wouldn’t supply enough content for both types of players to be satisfied, leaving no one happy. It just wouldn’t work.

Yeah pretty much. The thing is, pretty much every pro sprint argument boils down to “i was to feel and get around fast”

There are a ton of ways to accomplish “Feeling” fast, without adding an ever-present sprint button that forces compromises everywhere else. Field of View, screen effects, acceleration on the movement stick, power ups, higher base movement speed off the top of my head, i am sure i am forgetting others.

The “get around fast” one is MUCH better accomplished by utilizing map elements like teleporters, mancannos and vehicles because those things actually help you get around faster. With sprint, that really forces the maps to become bigger since everybody has it all the time and can use it whenever they want. The net effect of that is that you are not actually getting from point A to B faster. At best it’s the same amount of time as a non-sprint design would have been. At worst (which is much more likely) you are actually slower getting from point A to B since you will have to stop if you want to pull your gun up to fight.

This lengthening of maps means that every weapons RRR is extended because gunfights are on average at a longer range. This longer range means that your enemies are physically smaller on your screen. Combine that with the fact that you may also have to track sprinting targets, and the weapons get tuned in a way that makes them way too easy to use against closer, non-sprinting targets with differential aim assist across the length of the RRR making gunfights never feel the same. Its impossible to build up the muscle memory so everything feels “crisp” since its always a little different.

Sprint as a base characteristic is not good however, i would like to see a “Speed boost” or “Haste” type powerup used more effectively on maps. For those not familiar, Haste is a powerup that would basically increase all your characteristics by like 20% for 40 seconds. Shield recharge delay and rate, fire rate, reload speed, movement acceleration and movement speed.

[GreaterTirus12]

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> > > Who cares if sprint is in the game? If every game mode has a classic version with no sprint and a version with sprint why does it matter? you don’t want sprint? then play the classic modes. You don’t want sprint in your forge or custom game experiences? then if they add a setting to turn off sprint in those modes just turn it off, You want to play multiplayer with sprint? Hey then go play the modes with sprint enabled. you want sprint in your custom games and forge? well hey leave the sprint setting on
> > >
> > > Stop with these nonsense threads. If classic playlist launch with the game a long with ones that have sprint no one would feel forced to play something they don’t want to play. its that simple. I don’t want to be forced to play classic setting so you will never see me in any classic playlist
> >
> > Have you read a single comment in this thread? A classic playlist wouldn’t work because the weapons and maps would be designed for advanced movement, which causes all sorts of problems, as well as the classic Halo fans feeling like ‘2nd class citizens’ because they are getting the lesser treatment the modern fans are getting. It wouldn’t be equal in the slightest, unless 343 made special weapons and maps for each style of movement, resulting in them basically selling 2 games in 1, which wouldn’t supply enough content for both types of players to be satisfied, leaving no one happy. It just wouldn’t work.
>
> Yeah pretty much. The thing is, pretty much every pro sprint argument boils down to “i was to feel and get around fast”
>
> There are a ton of ways to accomplish “Feeling” fast, without adding an ever-present sprint button that forces compromises everywhere else. Field of View, screen effects, acceleration on the movement stick, power ups, higher base movement speed off the top of my head, i am sure i am forgetting others.
>
> The “get around fast” one is MUCH better accomplished by utilizing map elements like teleporters, mancannos and vehicles because those things actually help you get around faster. With sprint, that really forces the maps to become bigger since everybody has it all the time and can use it whenever they want. The net effect of that is that you are not actually getting from point A to B faster. At best it’s the same amount of time as a non-sprint design would have been. At worst (which is much more likely) you are actually slower getting from point A to B since you will have to stop if you want to pull your gun up to fight.
>
> This lengthening of maps means that every weapons RRR is extended because gunfights are on average at a longer range. This longer range means that your enemies are physically smaller on your screen. Combine that with the fact that you may also have to track sprinting targets, and the weapons get tuned in a way that makes them way too easy to use against closer, non-sprinting targets with differential aim assist across the length of the RRR making gunfights never feel the same. Its impossible to build up the muscle memory so everything feels “crisp” since its always a little different.
>
> Sprint as a base characteristic is not good however, i would like to see a “Speed boost” or “Haste” type powerup used more effectively on maps. For those not familiar, Haste is a powerup that would basically increase all your characteristics by like 20% for 40 seconds. Shield recharge delay and rate, fire rate, reload speed, movement acceleration and movement speed.

You will never get the same feeling as sprint if they just increased the based movement and there’s a limit to how much you can increase the base movement speed before it gets down right ridiculous and even still if base speed movement does increase guess what they would STILL need to build the map size around that which means bigger maps. every issue you guys are having with can be solved with classic playlist. halo always have had small, medium and large maps even when sprint wasn’t a thing, it should not matter if people want to sprint around the maps I also don’t get this “second class citizen” argument, you get your classic movement in those playlist so you wont be forced to use sprint but yet you want to force people who want sprint to feel like “second class citizens” if sprint isn’t in the game at all. funny huh?

adding in powerups would only cause balance issues and more than just adding sprint would have caused. teleporters and stuff can still be added to the game it does not matter if one mode allows you to sprint to the teleporter to use it or not sprint to it at all as it still servers the same basic function

[LoxOne4269]

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> > I see no point in arguing with or criticizing other Halo fans for what kind of movement they like in a game.
> > Why do I need to prove to you my perceived value of a sprint/climb/roll mechanic in enjoying the immersion of the story?
> > Just as much as why do you need to prove to me how much better you think it is without that?
>
> It’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I like it because it helps me understand things. Through debating the design and trying to justify my opinions I’ve learned to understand game design at a more general level, I’ve learned to understand my own opinions at a level deeper than “it’s (not) fun”, and I’ve learned a bit about other people’s opinions at a deeper level. I’ve always viewed the debate as a quest for understanding more than anything. I want you to justify your position, because I hope that you find something interesting to say, and I try to justify my position, because I want you to make an interesting comment to it. For me, it’s about constantly putting my own ideas to the test. If they’re not sustainable they will slowly morph to better ones if I keep honest with myself. Obviously, I need people to challenge my ideas, and I’d like others to have the same experience.
>
> I don’t know whether this applies to literally anybody else, but this whole debate and criticism is a learning experience, and is my idea of fun.

I’m completely on the same page as you on that, but this topic as an example; the longer its discussed and different parts of it are raised, it firstly becomes increasingly subjective based on that individuals preferences for whatever reason, be that the flow/design of the game, the canon, realism or whatever. Then it has a tendency to diverge from a constructive healthy debate where minds are open to change to a more criticism fueled “I’m right, your wrong,” kind of thing.
Justifications for this or that will be presented, then debunked, then the debunking will be debunked and so on and the endless cycle of debunking/not changing opinion becomes more heated and nonconstructive.

As a general rule of thumb, I break down this debate into 2 general camps, each with their own more malleable subgroup. Camp for the movements - Camp against the movements.
The subgroup of each side is the person who (on the for side) might say I love the game with sprint because mobility but I wouldn’t care if all the other abilities went out the window. The opposite side to that is; I don’t want any abilities, but I could accept sprint.

I’m not objecting to what you’re saying though, I’m all for a healthy debate to merge ideas, or at least learn to see something from someone else’s perspective.

But as far as my reasoning for enjoying the modern mechanics: In my day to day life, I’m generally a very active person, and I used to be a competitive athlete, so the “feel” of movement is very important for me to enjoy whatever tasks I’m doing, as a lover of all things sci-fi, and in this case Halo, that extends to playing the game. So on the point of sprint and clamber, the realistic style of mobility paired with the screen shake plus added sound effects (boot thuds, armour clanking/rustle) makes using these mechanics in the game to be wholly more immersive for me with that added sense of realism and makes being involved with the story feel more personal and invigorating.
I don’t care about ground pound, slide, or spartan charge though. I think I only used them once or twice in the campaign, and never in multiplayer.

From a multiplayer perspective - addressing only sprint and boost - they add (in my opinion) more variation to playstyle and tactics, whether you’re pushing up or falling back. I’ve recently played a bunch of MCC multiplayer across H1-2-3 and whilst I’m not a pro gamer, I’m no slouch by semi-competitive casual standards, and I did pretty well in each matchup, but I found the movement to feel bland and flat.

But I think it should be important for people to say when they’re discussing this topic if they’re referring primarily to multiplayer or campaign, or if they mean the entire game in general.
Because I’ve seen many peoples debates to be wholly centred around multiplayer, and that’s when the debate becomes more “grindy”.
Whereas when it seems to be more focused on campaign on this same topic, the results seem to be more moderate. Perhaps I haven’t paid enough attention to these kinds of debates though…

[xBalancedForcex]

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> > > > > > The debate whether or not Infinite should have advanced movement shall henceforth be known as The Great Schism.
> > > > >
> > > > > The great schism already started with halo 4 and 5
> > > >
> > > > The great schism started in Halo 2.
> > >
> > > I’m well aware of that. I meant what Spartan blue was talking about ಠ_ಠ
> >
> > Me too, in a sense. I meant both literally and figuratively.
> >
> > The Great Schism did indeed start in canon in Halo 2.
> >
> > Also, ironically enough, Bungie developed sprint as far back as Halo 2 (although they didn’t finish/implement it). Sprint would come to fruition in Halo two AAA titles later, but it technically started in Halo 2.
>
> It was experimented with during the development of Halo 2 and scrapped because of the pacing problems it introduced. Saying it started in Halo 2 is a bit misleading since it is in no way present in the finished game. It would be like saying boost-jumps started in Halo 5.

I’m not misleading anybody. We all know sprint didn’t quite make it into the final game of Halo 2.

Bungie did however spend time, effort, and resources creating sprint during the development of Halo 2 and it was completed enough that sprint indeed made it into the final coding of the game. Sprint made it quite a bit beyond a good idea or a simple chalkbord as far back as H2. Bungie would go on to make the wise decision to finally add sprint into Halo with their culminating installment to the franchise just a short two AAA games later.

As others have stated in this thread, I believe that sprint would have enhanced the game play in CE, 2, and 3. Map design isn’t restricted by sprint either- there are classic maps that made it into Halo 5 and they played just fine with sprint.

[system]

[deleted]

[Apoll0]

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> > > > > > > The debate whether or not Infinite should have advanced movement shall henceforth be known as The Great Schism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The great schism already started with halo 4 and 5
> > > > >
> > > > > The great schism started in Halo 2.
> > > >
> > > > I’m well aware of that. I meant what Spartan blue was talking about ಠ_ಠ
> > >
> > > Me too, in a sense. I meant both literally and figuratively.
> > >
> > > The Great Schism did indeed start in canon in Halo 2.
> > >
> > > Also, ironically enough, Bungie developed sprint as far back as Halo 2 (although they didn’t finish/implement it). Sprint would come to fruition in Halo two AAA titles later, but it technically started in Halo 2.
> >
> > It was experimented with during the development of Halo 2 and scrapped because of the pacing problems it introduced. Saying it started in Halo 2 is a bit misleading since it is in no way present in the finished game. It would be like saying boost-jumps started in Halo 5.
>
> I’m not misleading anybody. We all know sprint didn’t quite make it into the final game of Halo 2.
>
> Bungie did however spend time, effort, and resources creating sprint during the development of Halo 2 and it was completed enough that sprint indeed made it into the final coding of the game. Sprint made it quite a bit beyond a good idea or a simple chalkbord as far back as H2. Bungie would go on to make the wise decision to finally add sprint into Halo with their culminating installment to the franchise just a short two AAA games later.
>
> As others have stated in this thread, I believe that sprint would have enhanced the game play in CE, 2, and 3. Map design isn’t restricted by sprint either- there are classic maps that made it into Halo 5 and they played just fine with sprint.

Those classic maps really don’t just “play fine” though. And many of them are scaled way up. You are absolutely misleading everybody. It was coded in the game because they needed to prototype it and test it in the days before it was as quick or easy to do as it is today with more modern engines. And despite all that effort… they left it out of the final game. And out of Halo 3. THAT is very telling.

And adding sprint “just 2 short AAA games later” is actually saying, “they also kept it out of their next, largest, most popular Halo game and didn’t add it until they were working on their pre-Destiny experiment”.

[BTB_Bill]

I just want one person to give me a legitimate argument as to why Sprint is beneficial to halo. One that doesn’t include, I just want to “feel like a spartan” or “I like to run faster”. The latter of which has been proved false on many occasions.

Give me a simple reason (other than those 2 above) why Sprint is better for gameplay than a bump up in base movement speed.

[TheKiltdHeathen]

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> Where? … I dont think I can name any new game that’s coming out with an advanced mobility style of game.

“Advanced mobility” is sprint. In terms of Halo that’s including Sprint and Spartan Abilities. CoD:WWII has sprinting in it’s mobility. As will likely games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Borderlands 3, Cyberpunk 2277, Black Ops IV, Red Dead Redemption 2, PUBG, etc. Sprinting is in a majority of modern games, and is an expected function that is not shot down by one or two games that omit it (which, even then have characters that can sprint or get around the map quickly in equal method).

[TheKiltdHeathen]

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> I just want one person to give me a legitimate argument as to why Sprint is beneficial to halo. One that doesn’t include, I just want to “feel like a spartan” or “I like to run faster”. The latter of which has been proved false on many occasions.
>
> Give me a simple reason (other than those 2 above) why Sprint is better for gameplay than a bump up in base movement speed.

It’s been mentioned several times. If a player wants to get away from danger, but is already going at top base speed, sprint provides an extra boost (one that is situational, rather than constant) to allow players a means of escape. This applies for more than multiplayer, and if players really don’t want it in multiplayer then there are tools to make that happen, and a playlist should be pushed for. The anti-argument has cited DOOM as an example against Sprint and Spartan Abilities. Well, speaking for myself I continued to try and sprint (out of habit; I even try going back to older Halo games) despite having a high BMS, and there is a double jump feature, so even DOOM upgraded to more advanced mobility tactics than it’s predecessors. DOOM’s maps are also much more open and spacious than Halo’s maps, which allow for a higher BMS; Halo would have to adopt wider spaces to accommodate the same, or risk players moving awkwardly through the playspace. This may be permissible in multiplayer, but might not work so well in campaign. DOOM also has a clamber feature, so it’s a poor comparison against that function.

Also with the “I like to run faster”, I don’t think you can quite prove that “false”, as it’s a personal preference. There are times in these games that I do like to run faster to cover ground; I don’t like to run that fast all the time.

[Apoll0]

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> > Where? … I dont think I can name any new game that’s coming out with an advanced mobility style of game.
>
> “Advanced mobility” is sprint. In terms of Halo that’s including Sprint and Spartan Abilities. CoD:WWII has sprinting in it’s mobility. As will likely games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Borderlands 3, Cyberpunk 2277, Black Ops IV, Red Dead Redemption 2, PUBG, etc. Sprinting is in a majority of modern games, and is an expected function that is not shot down by one or two games that omit it (which, even then have characters that can sprint or get around the map quickly in equal method).

CoD and PUBG also have much faster kill times so there is no escapability problem with sprint. They also don’t have high jump heights, fixed weapons on maps, etc etc. They are vastly different games, so why should Halo try to be like that? Everything else you mention is PvE… so I don’t understand their relevance. Many games also do not have sprint that are incredibly popular. Take CS and Overwatch. The 2 most popular FPS games on the market and neither has sprint as a base characteristic.
I have posted a lot about this topic over the years and nothing really explains these things better than this playlist here in its entirety.

Enhanced Mobility is a Lie in 90 Seconds

The Truth Behind Halo's TTK - YouTube

https://giant.gfycat.com/DizzyNegativeAmethystsunbird.webm

[TheKiltdHeathen]

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> CoD and PUBG also have much faster kill times so there is no escapability problem with sprint. They also don’t have high jump heights, fixed weapons on maps, etc etc. They are vastly different games, so why should Halo try to be like that?

And Halo isn’t; the point isn’t to “be like CoD”. Addressed here further down. Certain gametypes of Halo (SWAT) also have faster kill times, and sprint is very much still a useful function in those games.

> Many games also do not have sprint that are incredibly popular. Take CS and Overwatch. The 2 most popular FPS games on the market and neither has sprint as a base characteristic.

Those are two games. Only two, and the same two that continue to crop up in this debate, and of which I’ve addressed. Counter Strike doesn’t have a base sprinting function, true, but your speed does depend on what type of weapon you’re holding. So while there’s not a designated “sprint” function, there is a variation of base speed. With Halo 5 especially, it’s not like some players have sprint and some don’t.

With Overwatch, there are characters that have sprint functions. There are also characters who have shield and grapple functions that other players don’t. Overwatch, as a class-base arena battleground shooter, is not an even comparison to Halo at all.

Beyond those two games, sprint is a common feature. And this is the point; it is expected in modern gaming. I realize you of the opposition expect more of an argument, but there it is. It’s as simple a reason and expectation as vehicles being accessible in Halo, or having the left stick for movement and the right stick for aiming and camera control (Reversed if Southpaw). That is how gaming has evolved into the modern era - across many types of games, as demonstrated - and it’s not something that’s likely to go away any time soon.

[A6ENT_C]

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> > > > Who cares if sprint is in the game? If every game mode has a classic version with no sprint and a version with sprint why does it matter? you don’t want sprint? then play the classic modes. You don’t want sprint in your forge or custom game experiences? then if they add a setting to turn off sprint in those modes just turn it off, You want to play multiplayer with sprint? Hey then go play the modes with sprint enabled. you want sprint in your custom games and forge? well hey leave the sprint setting on
> > > >
> > > > Stop with these nonsense threads. If classic playlist launch with the game a long with ones that have sprint no one would feel forced to play something they don’t want to play. its that simple. I don’t want to be forced to play classic setting so you will never see me in any classic playlist
>
> I also don’t get this “second class citizen” argument, you get your classic movement in those playlist so you wont be forced to use sprint but yet you want to force people who want sprint to feel like “second class citizens” if sprint isn’t in the game at all. funny huh?

Relegating a group of players isn’t going to satisfy them. You know that, which is why you’re acting like the only alternative to a Sprint-centric game with a no-Sprint playlist is a game where Sprint is completely absent.

Has anyone here said that there shouldn’t be any way to play with Sprint?

If you’re going to act like a playlist and custom games should satisfy anti-Sprinters, what can you say to someone’s opinion that a playlist and customs should satisfy pro-Sprinters?

If someone acts like playing previous games (CE-3) and/or DOOM is enough for anti-Sprinters, what can they say to the suggestion that playing previous games (Reach-5) and/or [insert just about any contemporary FPS] is enough for pro-Sprinters?

How do you figure you’d be a “second-class citizen” when you and others can find the “run or gun” gameplay you prefer in the majority of recently released/upcoming FPS games? You have far more alternatives than those of us who prefer the “run and gun” gameplay found in classic Halo.

[r3sPaWn3d]

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> > CoD and PUBG also have much faster kill times so there is no escapability problem with sprint. They also don’t have high jump heights, fixed weapons on maps, etc etc. They are vastly different games, so why should Halo try to be like that?
>
> And Halo isn’t; the point isn’t to “be like CoD”. Addressed here further down. Certain gametypes of Halo (SWAT) also have faster kill times, and sprint is very much still a useful function in those games.
>
>
>
>
> > Many games also do not have sprint that are incredibly popular. Take CS and Overwatch. The 2 most popular FPS games on the market and neither has sprint as a base characteristic.
>
> Those are two games. Only two, and the same two that continue to crop up in this debate, and of which I’ve addressed. Counter Strike doesn’t have a base sprinting function, true, but your __speed does depend on what type of weapon you’re holding. So while there’s not a designated “sprint” function, there is a variation of base speed. With Halo 5 especially, it’s not like some players have sprint and some don’t.__With Overwatch, there are characters that have sprint functions. There are also characters who have shield and grapple functions that other players don’t. Overwatch, as a class-base arena battleground shooter, is not an even comparison to Halo at all.
>
> Beyond those two games, sprint is a common feature. And this is the point; it is expected in modern gaming. I realize you of the opposition expect more of an argument, but there it is. It’s as simple a reason and expectation as vehicles being accessible in Halo, or having the left stick for movement and the right stick for aiming and camera control (Reversed if Southpaw). That is how gaming has evolved into the modern era - across many types of games, as demonstrated - and it’s not something that’s likely to go away any time soon.

Edit: The spoiler here is an unintentionally inaccurate statment. My later response addresses this.

Bold 1- There’s a variation in base speed on classic halo too. It’s called speed boost and it was interesting because it was a power-up you could pick up on a map; it took skill to control. As far as overwatch goes, you’re right there, that’s a silly comparison.Bold 2- Is really a requirement in a halo game though? Do you really not think that halo could attract players by having completely unique game play that doesn’t utilize a mechanic that changed halo’s formula significantly (and made it closer to other games in terms of game play)? Sprint, in my opinion, is just an unnecessary gimmick that only makes players feel like they’re going faster. If you need sprint to get somewhere faster, the map and BMS were not designed well for one another. If you need sprint to get out of a situation, it sounds like you put yourself into a bad situation and you’re wanting a “get out of jail free” card. On that note, intelligent positioning was and should be an important aspect of halo mp. When you put in mechanics like these that act as crutches, you remove some of the punishment for making a bad decision with regard to positioning.

Let me add in at the end here that I intend no animosity in my statements here. I just want to have a discussion and since text is hard to convey emotion it’s easier to add in a note letting you no I don’t intend any insults or disrespect.

[EvilKeny28]

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> > > > > > > > To be honest, I like classic Halo mechanics but would probably not enjoy them as much nowadays.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sprint has become an essential component of most FPS games and Halo is not an exception. Also, sprint in Halo 5 was good because it stops shield recovery as long as you sprint thus not allowing players to run away from fights without a penalty.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What I think sprint affected negatively in Halo is map design as it is clear that maps in Halo 5 are more norrow with less open areas compared to previous games without sprint.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Other spartan abilities, imo, should not be in future Halo games, ESPECIALLY SPARTAN CHARGE, as they alter the use of movements unique to Halo, such as crouch jumping which has less use in Halo 5 than in previous Halo games due to clamber.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What about Counter-Strike and Overwatch, two of the most popular FPS games for eSports? I’d add Rainbow Six: Siege since sprint is rarely used competitively, but sprint is a part of the game. As for overall popularity, Crossfire (a free to play CS clone) is up there due to the Chinese and Korean market. Hell, even the Doom remake did pretty well, considering the idea of Doom 4 being dead for almost a decade and multiplayer being messed up. I’m not sure about Quake, but people seem to still be interested judging off of Bethesda’s admittedly cringey E3 Conference.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’d argue most people don’t really care about sprint, as long as the game makes sense with or without it.
>
> "
>
> “Some may argue that this is moving away from a Halo experience”
> True, but what else can be done to improve on the classic formula without completely changing the game? We can only rebalance, add, and remove tools so many times before the formula either becomes bland, bloated, or both. I’ve been thinking for a couple of years about what else could be done to improve Halo’s gameplay for the modern era while still being classic, but I’m completely out of ideas. Modified Halo Reach Recon controls, Armor Abilities as map pickups, return of Equipment and Dual-Wielding, and Armor Abilities having sub-abilities. Anything else, and it starts going away from the Arena Shooter mentality and into the Arcade and Hero Shooter zone.

I do agree that Immersion must can naturally from the game itself. This is exactly the problem Halo has. Halo was conceived at a time prior to what is referred to as the “Golden Age” of gaming and even had a major contributor to this period: Halo 3. However after this, video games became much more mainstream with more games flooding the market and many companies competing for audiences to buy their games. As such nearly all developers, especially the AAA titles, strive to maintain relevancy and up to date with the hottest trends (look what’s happening with Battle Royal right now). To me it seems that Bungie tried something new with Reach, Armour abilities were an evolution of Equipment, which as we know had mixed results. 343, having properly established themselves after halo 4, did simply what many other developers were capitalising on at the time. That said I am not defending developers for doing this, far from it as it lowers the creativity of games, but I believe it is important to remember that when Halo 5 released, Halo was already 14 years old. As such I think it is was naïve for people to think change was not going to happen, especially with all the other contributing factors I have mentioned. However it does seem that 343 has decided to do some form of loop around. They could have easily continued along Halo 5’s path, but they didn’t. Now all that there is to do is wait to see what this new will lead to.
However now I’m just rambling on.

I don’t have a problem with armour abilities returning, though I do hope they are better designed than some of the lacklustre ones we got such as Hologram or Jet Pack.

Based on the forums I’ve visited these are the options different people seem to want:
-Pure Classic Halo 3 style
-Classic style + Thrusters
-Sprint, Slide, Clamber
-All Spartan Abilities except Ground Pound and Spartan Charge
-Pure Advanced Movement Halo 5 style
Not many seem to be thinking about armour abilities. I think its still a sour memory for a lot of people with many preferring the new Spartan Abilities over them.

[Naqser]

> 2533274804813082;182:
> You’re obsessed with Guardian. Who says maps have to be itty-bitty, or be designed to not take full advantage of Halo 5’s movement system? In any case, there is insufficient data to determine people’s sentiments towards the Forge remake. Maybe they didn’t like it, maybe it just wasn’t popular compared to other maps, and maybe they just didn’t know it existed. We don’t know.

Guardian, Wizard / Warlock, Elongation / Longest, Prisoner, Lockout / Blackout, Midship / Heretic, whatever small and / or cramped tight maps that were present then, are not present now. The smallest in size maps present in Halo 4 were Haven and Skyline, I’d guess Turth and Regret are among the smallest in Halo 5, all those four maps are at least medium size. Keep in mind that Halo 5’s BMS is also the highest of the series at this point.Here’s a link to an article regarding that.

No one says all maps need to be small, but you lose a size category, which is quite a significant loss.

> 2533274804813082;182:
> Because if it’s an “extra function” (i.e. your “press this button to go full speed” hypothetical), then it needs a balance. Just like you could only have one Armor Ability or Equipment. Just like you can only carry two weapons and so many grenades. Just like Spartan Charge, Slam, and thruster evades have a cooldown.
>
> The mechanic already exists. It’s only - for some reason that you refuse to explain - you don’t like it. Having a “max BMS” that matches sprint will not solve what you percieve to be the issue; everyone’s going to be going that speed, then, and players are going to expect an extra push (i.e. sprint) to close gaps or try to escape fire.

The function would be to go at a reduced speed.
Not tilting your thumbstick forward fully follows the same principle.
You know, for this issue of yours?

> 2533274804813082;124:
> What if we don’t want to go top speed all the time? Do you know how tiring it is to keep the joystick at half, just to prevent full movement? Having to regulate one’s speed because you’re constantly drifting into “overdrive” is going to disrupt gameplay far more than going faster than normal with a click of the stick.

> 2533274804813082;182:
> Sprint is an expected function in modern gaming. Halo has it. Yes, CoD has it. Battlefield has it. Fallout 4 and Skyrim have it. Even Tomb Raider, Hellblade, Grand Theft Auto V, The Witcher III, and a slew of other games that I’m likely forgetting.

So? There’s really nothing revolutionary by being immitative.

> 2533274804813082;182:
> What’s more, I fail to see what the issue is given that all the tools have been given to provide the experience that you want. Those tools will quite likely continue. Right now, in Halo 5, I can make a gametype (and I just did) that doesn’t use clamber, sprint (and thus Spartan charge or slide) thruster packs, ground pound, or any of the added things that you all for some reason hate. You can even up the BMS to 120% (or however fast you feel is “authentic”), remove shield charge wait and reloading restrictions if you want to use sprint, and a slew of other individual allowances.
>
> With a “large enough population” wanting this “authentic Halo feel”, you would think that it would be no problem at all to organize map remakes and tweaks (the tools are there via Forge) so that MLG or whoever can have the experience they’re looking for without stepping on the toes of players who enjoy the new features.

Perhaps I’d like a Halo game which uses the classics as a foundation, perfecting and polishing what those games did, while adding new and interesting mechanics and features, which are not on the “modern gaming” path, with “advanced movement”, Custom Loadouts, and whatever else the flavour of the month happens to be.

Customs isn’t for instance going to allow me to implement Biofoam containers to pick up, as to allow me to regenerate health as long as I have biofoam left in my armor.
Or change weapon characteristics, for instance, allow human weapons to have different firing modes, or Forerunner weapons to be modular, rather than slight variations of existing weapons.

> 2533274804813082;312:
> Beyond those two games, sprint is a common feature. And this is the point; it is expected in modern gaming.

So?
Dice could very well create a Battlefield with no guns at all, despite being an FPS, yet it could sell millions.
Guns are expected from a shooter, no?
You follow that argument because it’s convenient to point at other games ( and dismiss other games ) and say they’re doing it, so that game should do it too.
Going with a bucket list of features games and what kind of features they happen to share, is omitting your of game design and just following the herd.

[TheKiltdHeathen]

> 2533274857915830;314:
> There’s a variation in base speed on classic halo too. It’s called speed boost and it was interesting because it was a power-up you could pick up on a map; it took skill to control.

Which Halo? I don’t remember that powerup (I only remember Overshield and Active Camo), but on Halopedia I’m only finding it as being in Halo 4, Halo 5, and Halo 2 Anniversary. Which, barring the latter, are games that have Sprint as a base function already (which is odd).

> Is really a requirement in a halo game though?

At this point in Gaming Evolution, I would say yes. Halo has enough that sets it aside (and with this new engine, possibly ahead) of other shooters, there’s no wrong or harm in including what is now a core function. In that it’s included in almost every major game today (the vast majority), it’s also quite inaccurate to label it as a “gimmick”. Thruster Packs - while I enjoy them greatly - are more of a gimmick than sprint. As I mentioned earlier, sprint is as common and core a control function as joystick layout.

> If you need sprint to get out of a situation, it sounds like you put yourself into a bad situation and you’re wanting a “get out of jail free” card.

Sometimes that what it is, yes. Other times I’ve used it to ambush other players. Then again, there are times that I use sprint just to close a gap a little quicker, then drop back down to standard speed to clear the room. It has a few applications beyond running away.

> Let me add in at the end here that I intend no animosity in my statements here. I just want to have a discussion and since text is hard to convey emotion it’s easier to add in a note letting you no I don’t intend any insults or disrespect.

No worries! I’ve actually been quite calm throughout this entire thread, which I tried to convey in the video that I made. It’s a small thing to me, but something to fill the time until we get info on Halo Infinite. Though I’m also probably going to work on making a “Classic” game mode.

[CapnDerpwad]

My general thoughts as one fan, in no particular order:

• I despised Halo 5’s movement mechanics when the game first came out. By now, I suppose I’ve finally made my peace with them. (I can’t hate the game that much, I’ve played the crap out of it.) - I know I will pre-order Infinite regardless of whether it has classic mechanics or enhanced mechanics, honestly. - I understand 343’s job is very, very difficult. They know they’re -Yoink!- if they do -Yoink!- if they don’t with one of the two sides in this argument no matter what they do. Which is why I suspect they will shoot for a middle ground halfway in between. I suspect Infinite will not completely abandon the enhanced mechanics altogether, but it will nerf them and make them less effective and game-changing. (As well as designing the maps in such a way as to not necessitate use of them and allow for differing playstyles.) 343 does not have the luxury of just choosing one of these two sides and saying “screw you” to the other side, their job is to sell Halo games to both sides, that’s what Microsoft pays them to do. - Personally, I think the game they should be looking to as an example would be Doom 2016. Removing sprint and ADS alone would instantly gain a lot of goodwill among classic fans, but you increase base movement speed to compensate. - However, I think a more realistic expectation might be something more like Halo 4. (NOT talking about that game’s missteps with regards to things like custom loadouts and whatnot, only talking about the game’s base movement.) Reducing the number of Spartan Abilities to only a couple and making sprint finite again would slow the pace of the gameplay considerably and make it feel a lot more like the original trilogy gameplay. I feel the gameplay in Halo 4 is much more of an evolutionary rather than revolutionary change over the OT games myself.Just my humble and probably wrong opinions, for what they’re worth. (Which is nothing, LOL.)

[xBalancedForcex]

> 2533274804813082;310:
> > 2535408243184272;308:
> > I just want one person to give me a legitimate argument as to why Sprint is beneficial to halo. One that doesn’t include, I just want to “feel like a spartan” or “I like to run faster”. The latter of which has been proved false on many occasions.
>
> Also with the “I like to run faster”, I don’t think you can quite prove that “false”, as it’s a personal preference. There are times in these games that I do like to run faster to cover ground; I don’t like to run that fast all the time.

100% agree with this. It’s not like anti sprinters are “debunking,” absolutely anything with their opinions about their personal preference.

With respect to this specific issue, the main problem with increasing BMS as an alternative is that players will not want to run at that increased pace all the time. For many it would even get nauseating, as it would be difficult to control the faster movement 100% of the time. Also it narrows the range of movement overall, restricting all of it to just one joystick. That’s why the faster movement in sprinting is such a better alternative, because players can move faster when they deem it necessary. Sprint provides that additional level of freedom to players to empower them to traverse the map at different speeds as they prefer. If they take a step backwards with those mechanics and slap players with one BMS, it couldn’t ever effectively replace this specific benefit of having sprint. Because just simply widening the range of one single BMS would become like increasing the sensitivity; restricting the choices that all players otherwise get with the advanced movement system and thereby appealing to a smaller percentage of players.

[Dead_End_24]

> 2533275013370605;246:
> > 2533274815533909;240:
> > > 2533275013370605;226:
> > > > 2535464451695009;223:
> > > > > 2533274963936070;221:
> > > > > To be honest, I like classic Halo mechanics but would probably not enjoy them as much nowadays.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sprint has become an essential component of most FPS games and Halo is not an exception. Also, sprint in Halo 5 was good because it stops shield recovery as long as you sprint thus not allowing players to run away from fights without a penalty.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I think sprint affected negatively in Halo is map design as it is clear that maps in Halo 5 are more norrow with less open areas compared to previous games without sprint.
> > > > >
> > > > > Other spartan abilities, imo, should not be in future Halo games, ESPECIALLY SPARTAN CHARGE, as they alter the use of movements unique to Halo, such as crouch jumping which has less use in Halo 5 than in previous Halo games due to clamber.
> > > >
> > > > What about Counter-Strike and Overwatch, two of the most popular FPS games for eSports? I’d add Rainbow Six: Siege since sprint is rarely used competitively, but sprint is a part of the game. As for overall popularity, Crossfire (a free to play CS clone) is up there due to the Chinese and Korean market. Hell, even the Doom remake did pretty well, considering the idea of Doom 4 being dead for almost a decade and multiplayer being messed up. I’m not sure about Quake, but people seem to still be interested judging off of Bethesda’s admittedly cringey E3 Conference.
> > > >
> > > > I’d argue most people don’t really care about sprint, as long as the game makes sense with or without it.
> > >
> > > Honestly I don’t think you can compare Halo to games like Overwatch or Counter-Strike. They are very different game types. Also Halo has the disadvantage of being a longstanding franchise with many games under its belt so it has expectations and has to keep innovating in order to keep the franchise fresh are relevant to the modern market.
> > > I’d argue that generally people expect a form or sprint in most FPS games that are non arena shooters.
> >
> > Bold - why not? Your not comparing the overall game of Halo to say Overwatch, Doom, Counter Strike, etc. Just the sprint mechanic. You said,
> >
> >
> > > Sprint has become an essential component of most FPS games
> >
> > Well, people have named HIGHLY successful games, not only in sales but in popularity as well to say sprint isn’t an essential component for an FPS to do well or be popular. So in my opinion, your point has been proven wrong because people have proved that it isn’t essential with games they have named.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > I’d argue that generally people expect a form or sprint in most FPS games that are non arena shooters.
> >
> > I pretty much agree with you there, but again Overwatch is far from an arena shooter and there’s no sprint animation in that, so…
>
> 1- Halo and CSGO cannot really be compared for very simple reasons.
> -Halo has many games types: Warzone, infection, slayer, BTB, Capture the flag as well as many custom games and campaign. CSGO only has 1. Its easier so have simpler mechanics for a simpler game. Also CSGO has very different gun play than Halo where one can die very quickly and so rewards slower and more tactical gameplay while the other is supposed more about outmanoeuvring the opponent and is generally more forgiving. CSGO is also a franchise that never changes and doesn’t need to as it is a very competitive game while Halo makes slight changes every game and keep updating and improving their formula. Ultimately Halo and CSGO are games that are made with different goals and play in mind and this is why I think it would be inaccurate to claim one’s feature is another’s failure.
>
> 2- Also I never claimed Halo NEEDED sprint, that’s a quote from Stranger302 not me. All I said was that generally players nowadays expect a form sprint for FPS games, but no one is going to have an aneurysm if the game doesn’t (unless it was already a well established mechanic of a prequel game).
>
> 3- I agree that Overwatch is not quite arena style but still has strong vibes of such a genre. The game also doesn’t require sprint as the maps aren’t large enough to need it as well as the fact that several heroes have extra movement options to move around the battlefield faster (Soldier 76 Sprint XD)

• Yes they are both FPS and they for sure have differences I agree, but that wasn’t what was being debated. The debate was is sprint an and essential mechanic for FPS, that’s it. We’re not talking about charaters, other game mechanics, Graphics, different modes of play, control layouts, map layouts, weapons etc. etc. Just the sprint mechanic in FPS. No more, no less. I said it’s not and gave examples why. - Ok my mistake. I guess people do… I don’t fully agree on that, but that’s hard to prove either way, so we’ll just leave that. - How much have you played Overwatch!!! LoL I think they have quite a few maps that are pretty big. So I guess wewe’ agree disagree there. Yes some hero’s have extra movement options like Soldier 76 and Sombra both have a sprint animation. Then there are charaters like Lucio and Brigitta who increase there (and people around them) base movement speed. I can tell you right now because I play a lot of Overwatch most people like that better because their gun is always up, unlike the other two.