The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> 2533274804813082;2937:
> With the realization that the games all have basically the same speed (close enough so that there’s really no difference), and that Halo 5 - and I would assume Halo Infinite - gives players massive control over what is allowed in their custom games (such as removing sprint, abilities, even clambering), I have to wonder, still, why a “Classic Gametype” has not been made, and maps made to scale for base movement? The ability is there to accommodate this desire for “classic gameplay” without also punishing the players that enjoy Sprint and Spartan Abilities.

“Classic” custom gametypes have been made. The first gametype I created in Halo 5 was a classic movement gametype, but I also realized immediately: it’s not the same, because it’s not just about the movement speed. The weapons in the game have been designed for hitting players who might be sprinting, or thrusting or moving otherwise fast. So, in particular, the aim assist has been optimized for that. A “classic” gametype with “classic” movement speed actually just feels kind of sluggish in Halo 5, and you need to bump up the movement speed to get “classic” gameplay that’s kind of fun (and this way maps designed for Halo 5 aren’t totally unplayable).

But the real issue here is that having a little corner for the classic fans to play in is not a real solution. In some ways it feels even more degrading and insulting than just being told “this is our game now, and you either like it or not”, because it’s essentially pretending to care, but obviously not giving equal treatment. I’ve always advocated 343i either fully commiting for one direction or another. In a split community, it won’t really resolve anything, but it’s still by far the cleanest in the long term compared to trying to juggle everyone around as if they’re just commodity and constantly creating false hopes and mediocre compromises.

> 2533274804813082;2939:
> Definitely keeping it in mind for the followup video! One of the biggest things that I set out to do in that one - and I think it succeded - was destroy the misinformation of videos like this that try to compare Heretic to Truth.

The way that video is presented is highly misleading. It’s a bad video, and it’s no wonder people come from it with the wrong ideas. However, there is a point in it, which is that despite the higher speed enabled by sprint, it takes the same amount of time to move around, because the maps have been enlarged.

People are really bad at articulating the argument, but the real argument here is more or less as follows. Sprint speed is faster than classic BMS, but the maps are also larger. The effect of this is that things like the average time between encounters, average time to death, average match length, aren’t actually any shorter. You spend as much time running around, getting where you want to go, looking for opponents in Halo 5 as you spend in the classic games. This is in counter to the often heard defense for sprint: “it makes the gameplay faster” or “it helps me get to places/combat faster”.

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> 2533274804813082;2941:
> > 2533274795123910;2940:
> > Would you however be content with one or two playlists in multiplayer playing somewhat like older games, in a game tailored around the disabled mechanics, which are enabled in every other mode present in the game?
> > Like picking out a single raisin to eat a small small part of an entire raisin cookie.
> > It has never been a good solution.
>
> So the better solution is entirely remove a mechanic that the other half of the fanbase enjoys? That is not a good solution, neither is it fair. Especially since this all boils down to Multiplayer, but removing Sprint entirely would affect Campaign, as well as Multiplayer for players who enjoy the mechanics.

Better solution for me yes.
Overall as a solution, it’s never been a playlist that has gotten a lot of population because it’s been a watered down playlist which has arrived at a late stage in the game’s lifespan. Think those who’d be interested in such a playlist stuck around knowing not of such a playlist was coming, especially if they don’t have a big interest in the full game?

And it’s fair for those who want the mechanics gone from the game to keep all of them everywhere?
Multiplayer is the discussion at the moment but there have been plenty of occasions where PvE also has been the center of attention regarding these mechanics. I want sprint and clamber out of the entire game, and that has been the point from when I started.

Enjoying a mechanic, sure, it’s not like mechanics have been removed or replaced over the years though.

> 2533274804813082;2941:
> > Misinformation?
>
> Yes, misinformation. You can’t just run down the bridge in Heretic, then run down the Bridge in Truth and say “Ah ha, see? It took 12 seconds as opposed to 10 seconds; Halo 5 is slower!”, which is what that video did and what a lot of people on the Halo Facebook group seem to think. Because Truth is much larger than Heretic.

The video illustrate how time to travel along specific routes on the map barely changed with the inclusion of sprint because Truth is larger to accommodate sprint.
Though Tsassi beat me to it.

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No iron sights, no sprint?

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After extensive research into the matter I’m now more sure than ever that Halo needs to go back to classic movement.

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> creating false hopes and mediocre compromises.

Not to derail, but that feels like the entirety of my experience with H4, MCC and H5. That’s the problem, the inclusion of sprint directly affects the style of how Halo is played and no tweak or iteration of sprint will allow for that. Their games have directly forced me to not enjoy my favourite game franchise for ~7 years, as Tsassi said, ultimately it is one or the other…it didn’t have to be, but 343 sowed the division, not the classic community.

> The effect of this is that things like the average time between encounters, average time to death, average match length, aren’t actually any shorter. You spend as much time running around, getting where you want to go, looking for opponents in Halo 5 as you spend in the classic games. This is in counter to the often heard defense for sprint: “it makes the gameplay faster” or “it helps me get to places/combat faster”.

To add to what Tsassi said here, i find the average time to encounter is less (more interactions), but that encounter turning into anything important (capitalise/punish) is less likely. The time between encounters i would argue is more single minded as it often involves sprint and the game is very much in autopilot when used. That sole mechanic has added so much more ‘grey’ or ‘dead’ time to each match that it becomes boring, too stop/start or hot/cold, less active and focused.

Especially with 4, if you scrubbed through a match, or squinted, any technique to get a feel for the pacing, timing and flow of the game at face value…sprint, loadouts, abilities, ordnance/killstreaks, insta spawn…had the pacing and style of a CoD game with extra health, H5 feels more like reining that in and chasing advanced mobility games than trying to deliver Halo, the mechanics and 343’s input to blame.

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> 2533274804813082;2941:
> > 2533274795123910;2940:
> > Would you however be content with one or two playlists in multiplayer playing somewhat like older games, in a game tailored around the disabled mechanics, which are enabled in every other mode present in the game?
> > Like picking out a single raisin to eat a small small part of an entire raisin cookie.
> > It has never been a good solution.
>
> So the better solution is entirely remove a mechanic that the other half of the fanbase enjoys? That is not a good solution, neither is it fair. Especially since this all boils down to Multiplayer, but removing Sprint entirely would affect Campaign, as well as Multiplayer for players who enjoy the mechanics.

You’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head for why this is a problem in the first place. The mechanic as it stands can’t exist yet not exist at the same time, and any in-between compromises will just be seen as removing one side anyway.

Unless 343i is going to make two near identical games at the same time.

You can make an argument that Sprint affects the Campaign negatively as well, and Halo 5 dialed the problems up to 11.

And we can’t use the “get over it” response because that hurts people’s feelings regardless of how it’s said, even though that’s what we did for other mechanics like Dual Wielding, Jetpacks, and Ordnance. People liked those things as well and thought it equally unfair to be removed, but they were.

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> 2533274836395701;2946:
> > creating false hopes and mediocre compromises.
>
> Not to derail, but that feels like the entirety of my experience with H4, MCC and H5. That’s the problem, the inclusion of sprint directly affects the style of how Halo is played and no tweak or iteration of sprint will allow for that. Their games have directly forced me to not enjoy my favourite game franchise for ~7 years, as Tsassi said, ultimately it is one or the other…it didn’t have to be, but 343 sowed the division, not the classic community.
>
>
>
>
> > The effect of this is that things like the average time between encounters, average time to death, average match length, aren’t actually any shorter. You spend as much time running around, getting where you want to go, looking for opponents in Halo 5 as you spend in the classic games. This is in counter to the often heard defense for sprint: “it makes the gameplay faster” or “it helps me get to places/combat faster”.
>
> To add to what Tsassi said here, i find the average time to encounter is less (more interactions), but that encounter turning into anything important (capitalise/punish) is less likely. The time between encounters i would argue is more single minded as it often involves sprint and the game is very much in autopilot when used. That sole mechanic has added so much more ‘grey’ or ‘dead’ time to each match that it becomes boring, too stop/start or hot/cold, less active and focused.
>
> Especially with 4, if you scrubbed through a match, or squinted, any technique to get a feel for the pacing, timing and flow of the game at face value…sprint, loadouts, abilities, ordnance/killstreaks, insta spawn…had the pacing and style of a CoD game with extra health, H5 feels more like reining that in and chasing advanced mobility games than trying to deliver Halo, the mechanics and 343’s input to blame.

Bold - This x100!! You notice it on 4-4 maps but it’s generally not TOO bad, but it’s still frustrating. You really notice it in campaign, BTB and especially Warzone. I can’t even tell you how many times in campaign and Warzone where I’m just running…and running…and running and that’s it, until FINALLY I get back to the action. It’s beyond boring!!! And it’s all super unnecessary.

I dislike a lot of things about warzone (mainly how it doesn’t play like Halo at all… :roll_eyes:) but definitely one of the biggest things I hate about it is I feel there is so much dead time in that mode of play it’s not even funny.

I’m not saying that there was never “dead time” back in the day in modes say like BTB or whatever but no where near as bad and in my opinion the majority of this is caused by the sprint, which in turn leads to maps being designed around sprint and so forth.

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> 2533274825830455;2942:
> But the real issue here is that having a little corner for the classic fans to play in is not a real solution.

What if it wasn’t a little corner? We’ve already got division between Social and Ranked playlists, I don’t imagine it would be too incredibly difficult to have a Classic and Modern divison, with both Ranked and Social within each. Nor do I think it would be too impossible to have maps that accomodate sprinting while not over-compensating for it, just as maps in Halo Reach worked for a variety of mobility Abilities without necessitating any of them.

But, so far as commiting one direction or another, it seems that’s already done. With three games introducing and evolving modern movement mechanics - common across many current FPS titles - it does seem like it’s here to stay.

> 2533274795123910;2943:
> Better solution for me yes.

A better solution for Naqser. How very wonderful for the rest of us.

See, that’s one of my bigger problems here. You’re not looking to compromise, or find a good middle ground. You’re just interested in what works for you.

> 2533274833081329;2947:
> You’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head for why this is a problem in the first place. The mechanic as it stands can’t exist yet not exist at the same time, and any in-between compromises will just be seen as removing one side anyway.

I disagree; I think the mechanic as it stands can exist. It does, and it has for going on ten years in Halo. It’s common in many modern titles, and would be foolish to remove at this point. Sprint (and to some extent mechanics like clambering and sliding) can be somewhat compared to things like Dual Wielding, Jetpacks and Ordnance, but only slightly. Those things aren’t as common in other games, and so won’t be as expected outside very specific examples (e.g. Borderlands 2’s Gunzerker class, Saints Row 4’s super-jump/glide ability, etc). Yes, they were removed in the same regard that I imagine Spartan Charge and Ground Pound will be removed or altered. They’re ancillary abilities, reliant on a core one; and yes, at this point I do view Sprint as a core mechanic. It’s been around for now half the Franchise’s lifespan.

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> 2533274804813082;2949:
> What if it wasn’t a little corner? We’ve already got division between Social and Ranked playlists, I don’t imagine it would be too incredibly difficult to have a Classic and Modern divison, with both Ranked and Social within each. Nor do I think it would be too impossible to have maps that accomodate sprinting while not over-compensating for it, just as maps in Halo Reach worked for a variety of mobility Abilities without necessitating any of them.
>
> But, so far as commiting one direction or another, it seems that’s already done. With three games introducing and evolving modern movement mechanics - common across many current FPS titles - it does seem like it’s here to stay.

This goes back to the mediocre compromises. Maps that are playable for both experiences will never be good for either. You’re compromising on the quality of both experiences just to accommodate them. Instead of giving a good experience for some people, and a bad experience for others, you’d be giving a mediocre experience for everyone, and mediocre is not acceptable.

> 2533274804813082;2949:
> A better solution for Naqser. How very wonderful for the rest of us.
>
> See, that’s one of my bigger problems here. You’re not looking to compromise, or find a good middle ground. You’re just interested in what works for you.

I’m the first one to admit that yes, I’m only interested in what works for me. I’m not looking for a compromise. It’s not because I’m evil—that’s entirely coincidental—but because I know a compromise wouldn’t make me happy, and I just want to be happy. Otherwise, what’s the point? You advanced movement fans might as well have the whole game for yourselves in that case.

I’m selfish. I want what’s best for me with no compromises. I don’t see any shame in that.

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> 2533274804813082;2949:
> > 2533274833081329;2947:
> > You’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head for why this is a problem in the first place. The mechanic as it stands can’t exist yet not exist at the same time, and any in-between compromises will just be seen as removing one side anyway.
>
> I disagree; I think the mechanic as it stands can exist. It does, and it has for going on ten years in Halo. It’s common in many modern titles, and would be foolish to remove at this point. Sprint (and to some extent mechanics like clambering and sliding) can be somewhat compared to things like Dual Wielding, Jetpacks and Ordnance, but only slightly. Those things aren’t as common in other games, and so won’t be as expected outside very specific examples (e.g. Borderlands 2’s Gunzerker class, Saints Row 4’s super-jump/glide ability, etc). Yes, they were removed in the same regard that I imagine Spartan Charge and Ground Pound will be removed or altered. They’re ancillary abilities, reliant on a core one; and yes, at this point I do view Sprint as a core mechanic. It’s been around for now half the Franchise’s lifespan.

As I understand what Vegeto means when saying it can/can’t exist is that the existence of sprint or lack of sprint is very much a deal-breaker no matter what half-baked “compromises” you try and throw at it. Sometimes there just isn’t a middle ground to find and it would be better for everyone involved if folks in one camp or the other were just able to move on and let the other enjoy their preferred style to the fullest without being held back by compromises that will never be enough.

Those other mechanics are not common because what is “common” changes constantly. How many shooter design trends have we seem balloon in popularity only to recede when something different comes along? There are no “standards” for game design or a linear path for “modern” shooter design. I don’t see why Sprint is in this special “must have” category any more than any of these other trends have. Jumping is just as much of a gaming staple(and I would argue an older and even more prevalent one.) yet we still have games and shooters being made without that ability so again why is sprint so special? Even if a certain mechanic seems ubiquitous is doesn’t preclude statistical outliers from being successful.

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> 2533274804813082;2949:
> > 2533274833081329;2947:
> > You’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head for why this is a problem in the first place. The mechanic as it stands can’t exist yet not exist at the same time, and any in-between compromises will just be seen as removing one side anyway.
>
> I disagree; I think the mechanic as it stands can exist. It does, and it has for going on ten years in Halo. It’s common in many modern titles, and would be foolish to remove at this point.

Okay, then keeping it in and calling it “foolish to remove” (while your comment never explains why it’s important to keep, btw) is unfair to the half of the community that doesn’t like Sprint.

Whatever compromise you could attempt to offer will never get around the fact that Sprint exists, which is the exact opposite of what that side of the community wants. At best, we’d have the equivalent of “make two games at the same time, put them side by side,” but there’s only so much manpower and so many resources to do something of that much effort for something as “simple” as the ability to Sprint or not.

And if you’re not providing a compromise, you’re just telling me that Sprint is common and a “core mechanic” (whatever attributes needed to call itself that), then you’re not doing any better than what you claimed Naqser is doing. It’s just in the other direction.

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> 2533274804813082;2949:
> > 2533274795123910;2943:
> > Better solution for me yes.
>
> A better solution for Naqser. How very wonderful for the rest of us.

It may be different for you, but not a single other person has demanded that I’m here to speak for them, to act on their behalf or forward and work towards what they want.

> 2533274804813082;2949:
> See, that’s one of my bigger problems here. You’re not looking to compromise, or find a good middle ground.

Why on earth should I? I see no reason to change something I’d like, to be less to my liking, in order for others who do not share my preferences to enjoy it more. I’d rather have others around who share my interests.

> 2533274804813082;2949:
> You’re just interested in what works for you.

Why would I be interested in chasing something I dislike so that others may like it? And you are interested in what doesn’t work for you?
Or, is your idea of what works for you, to segregate the community, give the “classic fans” a small piece of an enormous pie, so you get what you want on the remaining piece?
Now that we’re really in on the subject.
Considering I don’t see the rest of my post in your quote, with an answer to it, I don’t think you’re really that interested in what’d work for me.
So all in all, it seems to me, you’re not really interested in what works for anyone else than yourself either, because you got stuck up on a single truthful sentence, which applies to, I dare say 99,9% of every single forum goer, even you, that you don’t care to even attempt to answer the rest of the post.
Everyone is here for their own sake, and their own interests.

> 2533274804813082;2949:
> It’s common in many modern titles, and would be foolish to remove at this point. Sprint (and to some extent mechanics like clambering and sliding) can be somewhat compared to things like Dual Wielding, Jetpacks and Ordnance, but only slightly. Those things aren’t as common in other games, and so won’t be as expected outside very specific examples (e.g. Borderlands 2’s Gunzerker class, Saints Row 4’s super-jump/glide ability, etc). Yes, they were removed in the same regard that I imagine Spartan Charge and Ground Pound will be removed or altered. They’re ancillary abilities, reliant on a core one; and yes, at this point I do view Sprint as a core mechanic. It’s been around for now half the Franchise’s lifespan.

Maybe it’s just me, but when things get included into a game because the mechanics are common in other similair games, and to meet player expectations, is when you’re not really making a game anymore, and just focusing on making a consumer product meant to bring in a quick buck. -Yoink!- be the experience. Look what it got us in 2012 for instance.
Also, a quick note, Spartan Charge and Slide could very well have been implemented into a sprint-less Halo. Ground Pound basically only requires you to be mid-air, which is achievable without jumping, as far as I’m concerned, you don’t need to jump in order to activate it.
Furthermore, interesting how Sprint, apparently a newer core mechanic, altered a Day 1 core mechanic, in an unintuitive way, to solve an issue which sprint caused in the first place, if we’re going to start thinking about different things we consider core-mechanics and their importance based on how long they’ve been in.

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I played the first halo when I was in high school. I continued to play the rest of the games because they were fun and they usually added something new with each title. I don’t know why so many people want to keep halo in the past by demanding the studio “stick to the formula”. I love the old halo’s but I really had fun with halo 5 pvp and warzone. I hope 343 continues with were they left off with Halo 5. For anyone that wants to stay in the past that’s why they made the master chief collection.

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> 2533274792251366;2954:
> I played the first halo when I was in high school. I continued to play the rest of the games because they were fun and they usually added something new with each title. I don’t know why so many people want to keep halo in the past by demanding the studio “stick to the formula”. I love the old halo’s but I really had fun with halo 5 pvp and warzone. I hope 343 continues with were they left off with Halo 5. For anyone that wants to stay in the past that’s why they made the master chief collection.

And anyone who wants to stay like Halo 5 can go play Halo 5. It’s still there for you. See how that works?

And this is also the same franchise that wanted to go to the past instead of be more like Halo 4, and now everyone likes the result that is Halo 5.

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> 2533274833081329;2955:
> > 2533274792251366;2954:
> > I played the first halo when I was in high school. I continued to play the rest of the games because they were fun and they usually added something new with each title. I don’t know why so many people want to keep halo in the past by demanding the studio “stick to the formula”. I love the old halo’s but I really had fun with halo 5 pvp and warzone. I hope 343 continues with were they left off with Halo 5. For anyone that wants to stay in the past that’s why they made the master chief collection.
>
> And anyone who wants to stay like Halo 5 can go play Halo 5. It’s still there for you. See how that works?
>
> And this is also the same franchise that wanted to go to the past instead of be more like Halo 4, and now everyone likes the result that is Halo 5.

I will for sure keep playing halo 5 after infinite has come out. But Halo needs to move forward and not stay in the past to satisfy the old community. Im gonna let you finish, but H5 had great pvp and I loved fire team osiris.

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> 2533274792251366;2956:
> > 2533274833081329;2955:
> > > 2533274792251366;2954:
> > > I played the first halo when I was in high school. I continued to play the rest of the games because they were fun and they usually added something new with each title. I don’t know why so many people want to keep halo in the past by demanding the studio “stick to the formula”. I love the old halo’s but I really had fun with halo 5 pvp and warzone. I hope 343 continues with were they left off with Halo 5. For anyone that wants to stay in the past that’s why they made the master chief collection.
> >
> > And anyone who wants to stay like Halo 5 can go play Halo 5. It’s still there for you. See how that works?
> >
> > And this is also the same franchise that wanted to go to the past instead of be more like Halo 4, and now everyone likes the result that is Halo 5.
>
> I will for sure keep playing halo 5 after infinite has come out. But Halo needs to move forward and not stay in the past to satisfy the old community. Im gonna let you finish, but H5 had great pvp and I loved fire team osiris.

Again, you keep telling me to move forward, yet all I see is Halo 5 going backwards from Halo 4.

Great, you love Halo 5’s multiplayer - that just strengthens my point. So far “sticking to the formula” is going really well!

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Halo 5 is a step above 4 not backwards. The pvp was great the story was cool IMO. What even is your point? You made no sense when you said “And this is also the same franchise that wanted to go to the past instead of be more like Halo 4, and now everyone likes the result that is Halo 5.”

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> 2533274792251366;2958:
> Halo 5 is a step above 4 not backwards. The pvp was great the story was cool IMO. What even is your point? You made no sense when you said “And this is also the same franchise that wanted to go to the past instead of be more like Halo 4, and now everyone likes the result that is Halo 5.”

Loadouts - Gone
Ordnance - Gone
Instant Respawn - Gone
Armor Abilities - Most were removed except for a retooled Thruster Pack
Killcams - Gone
Promethean Weapons - Nerfed

Guess what was brought back from older games for late Halo 4 to Halo 5?

  • Equal Starts - Static weapon spawns - Active Camo is a power up on the map - Longer Respawns - Ranks - The ability to drop the flag /sIf we’re supposed to only move forward and not backwards, Halo 5 should have embraced all of those things, not remove them. But since you’re able to enjoy Halo 5 without them, you’re basically living proof that going backwards isn’t inherently bad.
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> 2533274833081329;2959:
> > 2533274792251366;2958:
> > Halo 5 is a step above 4 not backwards. The pvp was great the story was cool IMO. What even is your point? You made no sense when you said “And this is also the same franchise that wanted to go to the past instead of be more like Halo 4, and now everyone likes the result that is Halo 5.”
>
> Loadouts - Gone
> Ordnance - Gone
> Instant Respawn - Gone
> Armor Abilities - Most were removed except for a retooled Thruster Pack
> Killcams - Gone
> Promethean Weapons - Nerfed
>
> Guess what was brought back from older games for late Halo 4 to Halo 5?
>
>
> - Equal Starts - Static weapon spawns - Active Camo is a power up on the map - Longer Respawns - Ranks - The ability to drop the flag /sIf we’re supposed to only move forward and not backwards, Halo 5 should have embraced all of those things, not remove them. But since you’re able to enjoy Halo 5 without them, you’re basically living proof that going backwards isn’t inherently bad.

Some of those were brought back if you bothered to play competitive. So what else is your problem with halo 5. Why have you stuck around to bash anyone that likes halo 5? Why you gotta hate on the people that like halo 5? You very salty.

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> 2533274792251366;2960:
> > 2533274833081329;2959:
> > > 2533274792251366;2958:
> > > Halo 5 is a step above 4 not backwards. The pvp was great the story was cool IMO. What even is your point? You made no sense when you said “And this is also the same franchise that wanted to go to the past instead of be more like Halo 4, and now everyone likes the result that is Halo 5.”
> >
> > Loadouts - Gone
> > Ordnance - Gone
> > Instant Respawn - Gone
> > Armor Abilities - Most were removed except for a retooled Thruster Pack
> > Killcams - Gone
> > Promethean Weapons - Nerfed
> >
> > Guess what was brought back from older games for late Halo 4 to Halo 5?
> >
> >
> > - Equal Starts - Static weapon spawns - Active Camo is a power up on the map - Longer Respawns - Ranks - The ability to drop the flag /sIf we’re supposed to only move forward and not backwards, Halo 5 should have embraced all of those things, not remove them. But since you’re able to enjoy Halo 5 without them, you’re basically living proof that going backwards isn’t inherently bad.
>
> Some of those were brought back if you bothered to play competitive. So what else is your problem with halo 5. Why have you stuck around to bash anyone that likes halo 5? Why you gotta hate on the people that like halo 5? You very salty.

See I didn’t say anything about hating Halo 5. I like Halo 5 more than Halo 4 because it went backwards. So do you, that’s why you’re dodging the point.

Everything I said was just an observation. If you see it as a personal attack, maybe it’s time for some self-reflection.