The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> > Nice to see you took one course in debates, but seriously we need more ludology than lawyerey when discussing game design.
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> If you want complex discussion, try to first not make oversimplified statements such as “classical Halo is defined by what there isn’t, not what there is”. As Celestis illustrated, that is a lazy and disingenuous way to frame the situation. The fact is, whether you’re adding or subtracting features to a game, there are consequences. The general consensus among the classical Halo community is that changes made from Halo:CE to Halo 3 were mostly not detrimental as it didn’t alter the game fundamentally, while from Reach onward the changes were mostly detrimental.
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> > I am for making players have to chose which advantage they want and not so much for balancing every advantage against each other.
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> As I am a classic Halo fan, I would say this is a horrible idea. In your simplistic view we could say I “don’t want loadouts”. Another way to phrase it though, is that I prefer equal starts, and prefer earning your advantages through gameplay, a core foundation of classic Halo. Just like a power up or power weapon should be timed and fought for on the map, so too should any other advantage (such as an armour ability pick up).

Problem with earning your advantage is that it easily produces a snowball effect where the game is won in the first phase and the rest of the game is just delaying the inevitable. But Halo 2 and Halo 3 did change from Halo CE in ways that some did consider detrimental, and they moved on to other games.

But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard there is no point in dissuading you from calling me lazy and disingenuous. I have looked up and asked question on this forum about features that have been in all the Bungie Halo games and stated the reply. this design by committee that is going on this thread here will result in a terrible game.

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Ok so Recently I’ve been thinking about why 343i is launching the Halo franchise on PC and all the discussion on going back to Halo’s roots,

I came up with this weird and pretty unlikely idea that 343i is launching the franchise on PC with the MCC so it can get their new consumers (them being the PC players) acquainted with Halo’s classic mechanics instead of the modern H4 and H5 mechanics, by doing this its assured that IF they do go with the old mechanics in infinite at least half the fan-base wont mind and be happy with the changes due to the new fan-base addition of the PC section and the Halo veterans liking the classic system.

But this is just my crazy and unlikely idea,
your thoughts on why i’m wrong?

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> But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard there is no point in dissuading you from calling me lazy and disingenuous.

Making blatantly false statements like this doesn’t help your case.

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> > >
> > > Nice to see you took one course in debates, but seriously we need more ludology than lawyerey when discussing game design.
> >
> > If you want complex discussion, try to first not make oversimplified statements such as “classical Halo is defined by what there isn’t, not what there is”. As Celestis illustrated, that is a lazy and disingenuous way to frame the situation. The fact is, whether you’re adding or subtracting features to a game, there are consequences. The general consensus among the classical Halo community is that changes made from Halo:CE to Halo 3 were mostly not detrimental as it didn’t alter the game fundamentally, while from Reach onward the changes were mostly detrimental.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > I am for making players have to chose which advantage they want and not so much for balancing every advantage against each other.
> >
> > As I am a classic Halo fan, I would say this is a horrible idea. In your simplistic view we could say I “don’t want loadouts”. Another way to phrase it though, is that I prefer equal starts, and prefer earning your advantages through gameplay, a core foundation of classic Halo. Just like a power up or power weapon should be timed and fought for on the map, so too should any other advantage (such as an armour ability pick up).
>
> Problem with earning your advantage is that it easily produces a snowball effect where the game is won in the first phase and the rest of the game is just delaying the inevitable. But Halo 2 and Halo 3 did change from Halo CE in ways that some did consider detrimental, and they moved on to other games.

It’s funny you bring this up. One of the things I loved about Halo is precisely because snowballing is actually very limited in Halo. It was extremely easy to make a comeback in Halo in the instance of the enemy getting a lucky start or just a really good start. For example, in the instance that you gain rockets, your advantage only lasts for as long as you hold rockets, meaning once you shoot them all (and there are only 2 or 4 depending on which game and setting) or if you die with them, your advantage is gone. You die and respawn with a BR and all is back to normal. Similarly, if you get a power up like OS or camo, your advantage only lasts for as long as the power up is active, which is usually no longer than a minute. As the game progresses, each team can then focus on regaining control of the next power up. This is very different to ACTUAL snowball games like MOBAs. In LoL for example, if you get a kill early, you gain additional exp and gold (to buy items), which translates into additional strength which carries throughout the rest of the game. This is very different to Halo, where your advantage expires after using your weapon/power up.

> But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard

So this is you just making some assumptions about me and my preferences. No game is beyond criticism and that includes H3. I wasn’t a fan of equipment in H3. It probably could’ve worked but as it was it was poorly implemented, mainly because they were too strong and acted more like a get out of jail free card than anything involving skill. I also feel the maps in H3 were far inferior to H2. I was also sad to see homing rockets removed from the rockets in H3, which was present in H2. I feel they nerfed the sword a little too hard in H3. I also wasn’t a fan of the elephant and the hornet as vehicles in H3. These are just things off the top of my head. For the record, I had no problem with dual wielding in H2 as it didn’t break the fundamentals of the game and I think it was fine in H3.

> this design by committee that is going on this thread here will result in a terrible game.

Instead of addressing the actual points of discussion you once again just make a generalised statement. It’s hard to not assume you are lazy when this is all you do.

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> Problem with earning your advantage is that it easily produces a snowball effect where the game is won in the first phase and the rest of the game is just delaying the inevitable.

As opposed to starting on unequal grounds, getting more reward for less work (Halo 4)?

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> But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard

Who exactly here is making constant callbacks to Halo 3?
And who’s on the offensive?

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> I have looked up and asked question on this forum about features that have been in all the Bungie Halo games and stated the reply. this design by committee that is going on this thread here will result in a terrible game.

And all you’ve done is asked about things that were, not things that could be.

I hope you’re including all groupings of people based on their preferences in that “design by committee” thing, and not just the grouping of people who aren’t fond of the current direction Halo has.

Then again, you’ve polled, and then taken the liberty of calling it “design by committee”. I mean, would you have said the same thing if the results had been to your liking?

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> > But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard there is no point in dissuading you from calling me lazy and disingenuous.
>
> Making blatantly false statements like this doesn’t help your case.

what I said was false?

> 2533274805175435;2740:
> If you want complex discussion, try to first not make oversimplified statements such as “classical Halo is defined by what there isn’t, not what there is”. As Celestis illustrated, that is a lazy and disingenuous way to frame the situation. The fact is, whether you’re adding or subtracting features to a game, there are consequences. The general consensus among the classical Halo community is that changes made from Halo:CE to Halo 3 were mostly not detrimental as it didn’t alter the game fundamentally, while from Reach onward the changes were mostly detrimental.

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> > > But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard there is no point in dissuading you from calling me lazy and disingenuous.
> >
> > Making blatantly false statements like this doesn’t help your case.
>
> what I said was false?

That we all (which I can only assume refers to people who dislike Spartan Abilities/prefer classic gameplay/etc.) demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard. This is obviously false, because I don’t, apparently GodLikE ProDG doesn’t, and many others don’t. That anybody here wants a Halo 3 is a lazy false assumption, because it’s easier to dump everybody into a single caricature than to accept that everybody here probably has their own nuanced ideas on how Halo should progress. With statements like this, it’s no wonder somebody would accuse you of being lazy.

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I don’t usually bother with game mechanics but, I just want a more fluid experience with a quicker bsm. I think Halo 5’s abilities break the flow of play at times. Some people say it’s advanced movement, is it really ? If you sprint you’re locked into an animation that won’t allow you to shoot. I remember a time when I could run, jump and turn 360° and still shoot, I think that’s advanced movement. I’ll settle for that with a quicker bsm and adjustable FoV over mechanics that restrict actions any day.

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> I don’t usually bother with game mechanics but, I just want a more fluid experience with a quicker bsm. I think Halo 5’s abilities break the flow of play at times. Some people say it’s advanced movement, is it really ? If you sprint you’re locked into an animation that won’t allow you to shoot. I remember a time when I could run, jump and turn 360° and still shoot, I think that’s advanced movement. I’ll settle for that with a quicker bsm and adjustable FoV over mechanics that restrict actions any day.

All Spartan Abilities obviously don’t restrict you in the same way. I’d be curious to hear are there some movement abilties (not necessarily, but may also be, from Halo 5) which would better mesh the flow of movement and combat? Or are you strictly for the simplicity of classic movement mechanics?

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> But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard there is no point in dissuading you from calling me lazy and disingenuous.

CTRL+F the last three pages, you’re the only one who spoke about Halo 3 in a competitive light.

Most comments about Halo 3 at all were in response to you talking about Halo 3.

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> > I don't usually bother with game mechanics but, I just want a more fluid experience with a quicker bsm. I think Halo 5's abilities break the flow of play at times. Some people say it's advanced movement, is it really ? If you sprint you're locked into an animation that won't allow you to shoot. I remember a time when I could run, jump and turn 360° and still shoot, I think that's advanced movement. I'll settle for that with a quicker bsm and adjustable FoV over mechanics that restrict actions any day.
>
> All Spartan Abilities obviously don't restrict you in the same way. I'd be curious to hear are there some movement abilties (not necessarily, but may also be, from Halo 5) which would better mesh the flow of movement and combat? Or are you strictly for the simplicity of classic movement mechanics?

I think an obvious one from H4/H5 certainly would be the thrusters concept , it could offer many positive oppurtunities to both combat and movement Flow I can’t think of a massive downside to its inclusion to classic movement mechanics. If for nothing more than constructive debate alone it’s certainly worthy of some consideration.

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> I think an obvious one from H4/H5 certainly would be the thrusters concept , it could offer many positive oppurtunities to both combat and movement Flow I can’t think of a massive downside to its inclusion to classic movement mechanics. If for nothing more than constructive debate alone it’s certainly worthy of some consideration.

I’ve always felt thrusters were just really gimmicky. I noticed in H5 that strafe battles, ever present in H2 or H3, almost never happened because in H5 you had thrusters to do your evasion for you. Call me a purist, but I have always felt strafing in itself was a skill. In H2/3 during a BR duel it wasn’t only important to hit your shots, but it was also important to be a difficult target, and knowing how to strafe was an important skill in that sense. Thrusters dumb down these engagements to the point where it isn’t about timing your strafe, it’s about timing your thruster. Like I said, it just feels like a gimmick and doesn’t add anything to gameplay. At the risk of sounding condescending, if you didn’t play at a high level there’s a good chance you don’t really know what I’m talking about, or if you do, you’ve likely not experienced it enough to think it’s a significant point. Players who actually had a good strafe, not just good aim, were usually exclusive to level 50 (or maybe lvl45+ in the MLG playlist) and when you play with this crowd for years in H3 and then go to Halo 5, the duels become an actual joke.

The only other time I recall thrusters being useful is when trying to make a jump in combination with clamber. I would much rather just go back to classical movement mechanics and need to perform difficult jumps without the assistance of thruster. A possible solution to this problem may be to design maps that involve difficult/trick jumps which can only be performed with thruster and, if done well, I think I would be open to thruster in that regard.

Still, I would say the addition of thruster would be a net negative. 343 would need to build maps around the mechanic successfully and even then, it completely destroys traditional BR/strafe duels because literally every one of them just becomes a thruster duel.

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This video pretty much hits the nail on the head. It’s kind of a long watch but it’s worth every second. The man makes a lot of good points. Just kind of figured it would help with understanding what made Halo’s movement mechanics great in the first place. Check it out and discuss what all of you think. Hope it helps some. Why Halo Struggles to Evolve - YouTube

Sorry for the repost didn’t see the discussion from yesterday until after I posted this.

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A thought in the back of my head:

You know which classic franchise released a game quite a short time after Halo 5 and way before Halo Infinite?

Doom.

Doom 2016 has a barebones gameplay and everyone loves it.

I think/hope that Doom 2016 did influence Halo Infinite’s gameplay so that, like Doom did, also Halo will return to its classic gameplay! :slight_smile:

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> Just popping in to leave this link to Favyn’s new video on why Halo Infinite, and future Halo FPS games, would greater benefit from classic mechanics over Spartan Abilities. It lays out the argument very well and cohesively, and explains why there’s more to the gameplay mechanics than it may seem at first glance.

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> This video pretty much hits the nail on the head. It’s kind of a long watch but it’s worth every second. The man makes a lot of good points. Just kind of figured it would help with understanding what made Halo’s movement mechanics great in the first place. Check it out and discuss what all of you think. Hope it helps some. Why Halo Struggles to Evolve - YouTube

Yep, I think it’s a must watch especially for people at 343. His two examples in the conclusion are spot on.

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> > > > But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard there is no point in dissuading you from calling me lazy and disingenuous.
> > >
> > > Making blatantly false statements like this doesn’t help your case.
> >
> > what I said was false?
>
> That we all (which I can only assume refers to people who dislike Spartan Abilities/prefer classic gameplay/etc.) demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard. This is obviously false, because I don’t, apparently GodLikE ProDG doesn’t, and many others don’t. That anybody here wants a Halo 3 is a lazy false assumption, because it’s easier to dump everybody into a single caricature than to accept that everybody here probably has their own nuanced ideas on how Halo should progress. With statements like this, it’s no wonder somebody would accuse you of being lazy.

Man, 100% this! So tired of people just saying “oh you want Halo 3” or “Just go play Halo 3 because that’s what you want” or whatever!!! It’s just so not true on so many levels. Yes I’m sure some people want it exactly the same as that game, but that’s no different than some people wanting it to be the exactly the same as Halo CE or Halo 5 or some battle royal game. I think the majority of people that want Halo to quote unquote go back to its roots, do not want the game to be a Halo 3 clone.

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> > Just popping in to leave this link to Favyn’s new video on why Halo Infinite, and future Halo FPS games, would greater benefit from classic mechanics over Spartan Abilities. It lays out the argument very well and cohesively, and explains why there’s more to the gameplay mechanics than it may seem at first glance.
>
>
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> > 2533274857733901;2754:
> > This video pretty much hits the nail on the head. It’s kind of a long watch but it’s worth every second. The man makes a lot of good points. Just kind of figured it would help with understanding what made Halo’s movement mechanics great in the first place. Check it out and discuss what all of you think. Hope it helps some. Why Halo Struggles to Evolve - YouTube
>
> Yep, I think it’s a must watch especially for people at 343. His two examples in the conclusion are spot on.

I actually haven’t seen that video. Just watched it. It’s very good. He explains things really well and I honestly couldn’t agree more. I definitely recommend people watch it. Thanks for putting it up you two.

Also was the video supposed to be two different ones? Because I got the same video on both links.

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> 2533274857733901;2754:
> This video pretty much hits the nail on the head. It’s kind of a long watch but it’s worth every second. The man makes a lot of good points. Just kind of figured it would help with understanding what made Halo’s movement mechanics great in the first place. Check it out and discuss what all of you think. Hope it helps some. Why Halo Struggles to Evolve - YouTube
>
> Sorry for the repost didn’t see the discussion from yesterday until after I posted this.

No problem. The more that see it, the better.

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> > > > > But since you all are on the offensive and demand Halo 3 to be the competitive standard there is no point in dissuading you from calling me lazy and disingenuous.
> > > >
> > > > Making blatantly false statements like this doesn’t help your case.
>
>
>
> > 2727626560040591;2756:
> > > 2535419441797248;2736:
> > > Just popping in to leave this link to Favyn’s new video on why Halo Infinite, and future Halo FPS games, would greater benefit from classic mechanics over Spartan Abilities. It lays out the argument very well and cohesively, and explains why there’s more to the gameplay mechanics than it may seem at first glance.
> >
> >
> >
> > > 2533274857733901;2754:
> > > This video pretty much hits the nail on the head. It’s kind of a long watch but it’s worth every second. The man makes a lot of good points. Just kind of figured it would help with understanding what made Halo’s movement mechanics great in the first place. Check it out and discuss what all of you think. Hope it helps some. Why Halo Struggles to Evolve - YouTube
> >
> > Yep, I think it’s a must watch especially for people at 343. His two examples in the conclusion are spot on.
>
> I actually haven’t seen that video. Just watched it. It’s very good. He explains things really well and I honestly couldn’t agree more. I definitely recommend people watch it. Thanks for putting it up you two.
>
> Also was the video supposed to be two different ones? Because I got the same video on both links.

They’re both links to the same video by me and Trout, who hadn’t seen that I had already shared the link in this thread.

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> > > that’s what I said. the forums idea of a perfect halo game
> > > - no sprint - no dual wielding - no fall damage - no clamber - no fun (okay that last one I made up as no one would ever say that but you get the point).
> >
> > That’s a polemic description of these features.
> > Where you see “no sprint”, I see “simultaneous running and shooting”.
> > Where you see “no clamber” I see “return of / increased emphasis on crouch jumping”
> > Where you see “no fall damage” I see “more pathways available throughout the maps”
> > Everything can be described in a supportive and in a contrarian fashion.
>
> You forgot no dual wielding, or that is a more focused shooting mechanics.

Not sure where you got the dual-wielding idea from. I’ve seen a lot of support on here for it.
Your idea of what the forum wants seems really opinion-driven

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> > > > that’s what I said. the forums idea of a perfect halo game
> > > > - no sprint - no dual wielding - no fall damage - no clamber - no fun (okay that last one I made up as no one would ever say that but you get the point).
> > >
> > > That’s a polemic description of these features.
> > > Where you see “no sprint”, I see “simultaneous running and shooting”.
> > > Where you see “no clamber” I see “return of / increased emphasis on crouch jumping”
> > > Where you see “no fall damage” I see “more pathways available throughout the maps”
> > > Everything can be described in a supportive and in a contrarian fashion.
> >
> > You forgot no dual wielding, or that is a more focused shooting mechanics.
>
> Not sure where you got the dual-wielding idea from. I’ve seen a lot of support on here for it.
> Your idea of what the forum wants seems really opinion-driven

Basically from this thread. It is mostly the opinions from the same people on this thread, but they will pile onto you if you don’t agree with them.