The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> > This is actually one of the main reasons why I like sprint / enhanced movement.
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> > Spawn control may have been a ‘skill’… but it just takes the fun out of the game.
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> I’d argue that the difficulty of setting up a spawn trap is attributed to how the spawn system works and map design, far more so than than what movement mechanics are in use.
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> > All I know is I don’t mind the Classic way making a return as long as its only in Arena Matchmaking then in Warzone have all the extra new style of gameplay. That way everyone is happy. If your a Competitive Player play Arena Classic Gameplay Experience. Then if your Casual fan that doesn’t mind something different then play Warzone. Having both styles of gameplay is the best choice instead of one over the other.
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> First off, at Halo 5’s launch they did have something to say about the mechanics being used across the whole game, and that was “consistency”. i343 wanted the game to be consistent through and through. Getting used to the game playing a certain way, only to jump into another mode and discover that it has different base mechanics, or lack of them, can be jarring. Imagine playing a racer with one complete mode being Mario Kart, and then jumping into another mode in the same game which’d play like Forza.
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> Second, no, not everyone would be happy, competitive and causal aren’t specific lists of items/mechanics required to keep that type of player entertained. Additionally, keeping the “competitive mode” a watered down version of the full game, never allows the “competitive mode” to be its own thing with its own new additions, it will never be the full version of the game. There are plenty of new things to consider implementing if you flush these ideas that there are “must have mechanics for the game to sell”.

First off in the past Halo Titles that everyone loved so much that Gameplay difference was there in the game already by having players start every match off weak and finding more powerful weapon on map. Then the core community wanted more so they release BR Starts which is a huge difference compared to SMGs.

Then we go to Halo 3 and make so we start off with BRs yet again but changing the game mechanics up in Forge such as Spawns, Weapons, Grenades, and even that map size.

Yet again we go to Reach which was successful and when 343i took over they came out with a more competitive version by changing the game mechanics up in there TU with the Bloom as well as the Amor Abilities and the weapons then making it so you have to find your Abilities instead of starting off with it.

Now least just fast forward to Halo 5 and I want to agree with you they did say there not going to change up at the beginning. But that change over time with the Splinter Grenades Location and Damage as everything else I the game except for the magnum. They said in one of there announcements over a year or two ago that they were going to change the magnum as well fix all the problems in the game but soon abandon the game. Then when you quote them on what they announced to the public they say there not releasing anymore updates to Halo 5 instead we are going to focus on Halo 6. Which is cool and all but when you release over 40GB updates for Halo Wars 2 instead of the game that made you real money it raises the question.

But back to the topic just because someone says something doesn’t always mean they will keep to it. Plus, they said that same thing in Halo 4 videos as well and the only problem is the communities are different in many ways. So, what they should be doing is going back to how Halo was done before by adding a place for everyone in Halo 6. With Classic Gameplay in Arena and Enhanced Gameplay in Warzone that way both sides are happy and each one can evolve in their own way without enter fearing with one another.

So, in the future of Halo with the two-community separated Warzone can be this amazing Large-Scale War Combat Mode with everything coming into play. While Arena can become this amazing Super Hardcore Gameplay experience that brings back old Pro Players as well having Tournaments for the Community.

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> First off in the past Halo Titles that everyone loved so much that Gameplay difference was there in the game already by having players start every match off weak and finding more powerful weapon on map. Then the core community wanted more so they release BR Starts which is a huge difference compared to SMGs.

Different weapon starts is worlds apart from enabling/disabling specific mechanics for an entire section of a game.
I don’t recall in which video Bungie talked about it, but of I recall, one reason to BR starts was that the SMG wasn’t a reliable weapon to start with, and use to compete against others who had gained new stronger weapons from the map.
Or is SMG vs BR starts the same as having all of the Arena playlists being SWAT variations and/or all of Arena had jumping disabled?

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> Then we go to Halo 3 and make so we start off with BRs yet again but changing the game mechanics up in Forge such as Spawns, Weapons, Grenades, and even that map size.

With the BR being the reliable utility weapon.
Custom content made by others matter little regarding Mode-wide mechanics.

> 2533274804280158;2722:
> Yet again we go to Reach which was successful and when 343i took over they came out with a more competitive version by changing the game mechanics up in there TU with the Bloom as well as the Amor Abilities and the weapons then making it so you have to find your Abilities instead of starting off with it.

Ah yes, the large update which in hind-sight was more of a “look at us”-pr stunt than anything important for the game.
Most changes were regulated to specific playlists, and as far as I recall, not very populated ones.

> 2533274804280158;2722:
> Now least just fast forward to Halo 5 and I want to agree with you they did say there not going to change up at the beginning. But that change over time with the Splinter Grenades Location and Damage as everything else I the game except for the magnum. They said in one of there announcements over a year or two ago that they were going to change the magnum as well fix all the problems in the game but soon abandon the game. Then when you quote them on what they announced to the public they say there not releasing anymore updates to Halo 5 instead we are going to focus on Halo 6. Which is cool and all but when you release over 40GB updates for Halo Wars 2 instead of the game that made you real money it raises the question.

Where exactly did I say they weren’t going to change anything?
I said they explained why all mechanics are enabled through the whole game. All official modes and playlists available at launch have been identical in gameplay mechanics save for a few niche playlists for specific occasions throughout Halo 5’s lifespan.
You don’t have Campaign with all mechanics, then Arena with only the basics and Warzone with a few. It’s all player mechanics across all modes.

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> But back to the topic just because someone says something doesn’t always mean they will keep to it. Plus, they said that same thing in Halo 4 videos as well and the only problem is the communities are different in many ways. So, what they should be doing is going back to how Halo was done before by adding a place for everyone in Halo 6. With Classic Gameplay in Arena and Enhanced Gameplay in Warzone that way both sides are happy and each one can evolve in their own way without enter fearing with one another.

Back to where we started with the same message…

So they’re going to make one game, which includes two different games? Where Warzone gets it’s mechanics and Arena gets an entirely different set of mechanics? For instance:

Arena : Double Jump - Warzone : Clamber
Arena : Evade - Warzone : Thrusters
Arena : Button Combos - Warzone : Hovering
Arena : Wall jump - Warzone : Slider
Arena : High BMS - Warzone : Low BMS + Sprint

Along with different weapon sets to accommodate Maps, player traits and abilities?

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> So, in the future of Halo with the two-community separated Warzone can be this amazing Large-Scale War Combat Mode with everything coming into play. While Arena can become this amazing Super Hardcore Gameplay experience that brings back old Pro Players as well having Tournaments for the Community.

You’re back to having Arena a watered down version with less abilities and nothing new, or am I missing something?

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> > 2533274804280158;2722:
> > So, in the future of Halo with the two-community separated Warzone can be this amazing Large-Scale War Combat Mode with everything coming into play. While Arena can become this amazing Super Hardcore Gameplay experience that brings back old Pro Players as well having Tournaments for the Community.
>
> You’re back to having Arena a watered down version with less abilities and nothing new, or am I missing something?

No, you’re not missing anything but you’re a fan of the new and not the old.:unamused: It’s not hard to tell but just because one doesn’t have something similar doesn’t mean its watered down. People of the old Halo games as well as some new players like the old style more the only thing they complain about more than anything is Sprint, Spartan Charge, and Ground Pound. Which is understandable for some people in many ways. I don’t have a problem with any of it infect I want more.:grin: But that’s my opinion and that’s why I say it’s better to make everyone happy in some shape or form instead of one crowd over another. Plus, you can add the other new stuff in H5 as some with the Classic experience but in no shape or form will it be watered down if the battle are awesome and rewarding.
Bringing all that extra flavor to Warzone where players must grind their way to get what they want is very rewarding feeling but putting that style of game in the core would piss people off like what happened in Halo 4. If Warzone would’ve came out on Halo 4 with fighting the AI and all the extra stuff they had in Halo 4 put into Warzone but make it so you had to grind you way to get what you want like the Armor in Halo Reach Halo 4 would’ve been a much better game. Then have the Core part of the game keep the classic gameplay with same start off as well add some new stuff fans would’ve loved Halo 4 Multiplayer but sadly that didn’t happen.:disappointed_relieved:

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> No, you’re not missing anything

So, arena would be nothing but the most basic abilities in order to emulate a past game, to the best of its abilities.

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> but you’re a fan of the new and not the old.

?

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> It’s not hard to tell but just because one doesn’t have something similar doesn’t mean its watered down.

Watered down, bare bones, whatever phrase you want to use, to portray that something is less than the original.
Yes, taking the game as it is in Warzone, then disabling all abilities, is watering it down, making it barebones.

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> that’s why I say it’s better to make everyone happy in some shape or form instead of one crowd over another.

But you can’t make everyone happy. I dislike the direction Halo took in terms of gameplay, partly with Reach, and quite a lot with Halo 4.
I also dislike any “Classic playlist” which I’ve tested due to it being a similar experience to the base game it is in, as well as it not offering anything new which isn’t a part of the main game.

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> Plus, you can add the other new stuff in H5 as some with the Classic experience but in no shape or form will it be watered down if the battle are awesome and rewarding.

SWAT is watered down, Griffball is watered down, but they are fun because they take a specific thing about Halo and put all focus on it. Keep in mind, there are loads and loads of other different game modes that have been created but never got as popular, or were even fun to begin with.

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> Bringing all that extra flavor to Warzone where players must grind their way to get what they want is very rewarding feeling but putting that style of game in the core would piss people off like what happened in Halo 4.

No, what people disliked about Halo 4 wasn’t just the grind, it was how it aped “modern shooters”. The flinching, the grenade markers, the Spartan Points, the sprinting, the loadouts, the random ordnances, the personal ordnances and so forth.

> 2533274804280158;2724:
> If Warzone would’ve came out on Halo 4 with fighting the AI and all the extra stuff they had in Halo 4 put into Warzone but make it so you had to grind you way to get what you want like the Armor in Halo Reach Halo 4 would’ve been a much better game.

No, it wouldn’t the base gameplay would still have included sprinting, flinching, grenade markers and whatever else I’m forgetting that was in there.

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> Then have the Core part of the game keep the classic gameplay with same start off as well add some new stuff fans would’ve loved Halo 4 Multiplayer but sadly that didn’t happen.:disappointed_relieved:

And what you’d have had would’ve been an inconsistent game where it’d have been too much of a gameplay gap for some players to cross in order to get breaks from playing the same monotonous gameplay on end, either from Warzone or from the Wargames. See, the Arena part would’ve been affected by Warzone, just like Arena was with Halo 5, for instance the lack of BTB and BTB specific developer maps, the lack of numerous popular game modes and a subpar execution of an excellent idea to increase the map amount for smaller MP maps.
Not only that, but if Arena and Warzone were to have different gameplay, what about the campaign? I wouldn’t have liked the Warzone gameplay mechanics for the Campaign, but what kind of gameplay am I getting there? Two modes to choose from as you apparently mean that two different modes are going to get different mechanics 'ala this:

> So they’re going to make one game, which includes two different games? Where Warzone gets it’s mechanics and Arena gets an entirely different set of mechanics? For instance:
> Arena : Double Jump - Warzone : Clamber
> Arena : Evade - Warzone : Thrusters
> Arena : Button Combos - Warzone : Hovering
> Arena : Wall jump - Warzone : Slider
> Arena : High BMS - Warzone : Low BMS + SprintAlong with different weapon sets to accommodate Maps, player traits and abilities?

Or a potential non-Warzone firefight? Or SpOps? Or any new mode they might come up with?

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Well thanks for the input of your thought and all but while I’m willing to open and suggest an idea you still haven’t. :roll_eyes: Like it’s nice and all that you care so much to the point that you break down what people post and all but if you’re not going to come up with your own ideas of what you would like to see then there’s really no point in this conversation. Because bashing at others isn’t the reason why I come to the Forums like most people. I only come here to express my opinion about certain things that I wish to see as an all-around gamer. Halo just happen to be a game that I will always play no matter how bad it gets just like I do with 007. As for others I can’t really say but I’ll see you later…

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Agree. Whichever way 343 go… separating the core community is a bad idea.

At it’s essence… the game play needs to be consistent across the board. Not just competitive vs social… but also with campaign, arena, warzone / firefight etc.

Sure, there will always be community game types and play lists… but new players need to feel comfortable entering any of the official playlists.

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> > 2585548714655118;2715:
> > This is actually one of the main reasons why I like sprint / enhanced movement. Spawn control may have been a ‘skill’… but it just takes the fun out of the game.
>
> I’d argue that the difficulty of setting up a spawn trap is attributed to how the spawn system works and map design, far more so than than what movement mechanics are in use.

I guess there a lot of factors.Better spawning algorithms and map design for a start. But there is no doubt that having some evasive options upon spawning greatly reduces the chance of being spawn sniped. And bigger maps, allowed because of sprint, gives more options for spawn points.

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> 2533274804280158;2726:
> Well thanks for the input of your thought and all but while I’m willing to open and suggest an idea you still haven’t. :roll_eyes: Like it’s nice and all that you care so much to the point that you break down what people post and all but if you’re not going to come up with your own ideas of what you would like to see then there’s really no point in this conversation. Because bashing at others isn’t the reason why I come to the Forums like most people. I only come here to express my opinion about certain things that I wish to see as an all-around gamer. Halo just happen to be a game that I will always play no matter how bad it gets just like I do with 007. As for others I can’t really say but I’ll see you later…

I like how instead of focusing on the points I made in the post, you started talking about me, my actions and my apparently lack of own ideas.
Here’s the thing, I’m not going to take out every single idea I’ve ever had that could be tried in Halo every time someone enters a thread, which has a critical outlook on an aspect of the current Halo. The best, and probably most fun part about breaking out the good old “game design document”, is that there are two outcomes:

A: It’s asked for but never acknowledged, it goes ignored by those who asked for a person to “tell what do you want?”.
B: Unless it is even close to what the current path of development / evolution is, the ideas, no matter what they are, no matter how big they are, or how many, result only in “Halo X.5”.

I have yet to see any other result when posting what things I’ve come up with.
Even then, “come up with your own ideas” is pretty vague, is it overall? Is it to replace whatever I’m critical of? To fix what I’m critical of? What kind of ideas / suggestions are you looking for here?

You posted on a public forum, your opinions are open for anyone to comment and challenge. If you were looking for others to suggest their own ideas, you should have expressed that. Your desired discussion can’t take place if you do not say what you want to discuss. Stating that right before you say what you’re not here to do, a sentence after tangenting doing what you said you’re not here to do, with an added “rolling eyes” smiley for effect.

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I’m starting to get the whole classic definition is loosely defined. It appears to be more of what there isn’t, not what there is.

So no sprint like Halo 3, but no Dual Wielding which was in Halo 3, also no fall damage which was in Halo 3, but no clamber (which was in Halo 3 but restricted to NPCs).

As I said before I don’t mind sprint and I don’t mind clamber but I feel where 343 wen wrong was making sprint a standard ability instead of a pick-up loadout and in doing so they also made it so it could be combined with clamber which reduced the verticality of the map since it was easier to transverse across not just the xy plane but the z axis as well.

I am for making players have to chose which advantage they want and not so much for balancing every advantage against each other. Some players might want clamber, okay give it to them but they can’t sprint. Some players want to sprint. Stopping them will be as easy as putting up a wall in their path. Also to avoid min-maxing I think the loadouts should be decided by the game mode rather than the player. give the player any option they want the best one, but restrict their options and force them to chose you get more compelling gameplay.

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> I’m starting to get the whole classic definition is loosely defined. It appears to be more of what there isn’t, not what there is.
>
> So no sprint like Halo 3, but no Dual Wielding which was in Halo 3, also no fall damage which was in Halo 3, but no clamber (which was in Halo 3 but restricted to NPCs).

Halo 3 had no fall damage

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> > 2666640315087182;2731:
> > I’m starting to get the whole classic definition is loosely defined. It appears to be more of what there isn’t, not what there is.
> >
> > So no sprint like Halo 3, but no Dual Wielding which was in Halo 3, also no fall damage which was in Halo 3, but no clamber (which was in Halo 3 but restricted to NPCs).
>
> Halo 3 had no fall damage

that’s what I said. the forums idea of a perfect halo game

  • no sprint - no dual wielding - no fall damage - no clamber - no fun (okay that last one I made up as no one would ever say that but you get the point).
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> that’s what I said. the forums idea of a perfect halo game
> - no sprint - no dual wielding - no fall damage - no clamber - no fun (okay that last one I made up as no one would ever say that but you get the point).

That’s a polemic description of these features.
Where you see “no sprint”, I see “simultaneous running and shooting”.
Where you see “no clamber” I see “return of / increased emphasis on crouch jumping”
Where you see “no fall damage” I see “more pathways available throughout the maps”
Everything can be described in a supportive and in a contrarian fashion.

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> > that’s what I said. the forums idea of a perfect halo game
> > - no sprint - no dual wielding - no fall damage - no clamber - no fun (okay that last one I made up as no one would ever say that but you get the point).
>
> That’s a polemic description of these features.
> Where you see “no sprint”, I see “simultaneous running and shooting”.
> Where you see “no clamber” I see “return of / increased emphasis on crouch jumping”
> Where you see “no fall damage” I see “more pathways available throughout the maps”
> Everything can be described in a supportive and in a contrarian fashion.

You forgot no dual wielding, or that is a more focused shooting mechanics.

No I am not using polemics, I just literally looked at pools (and even posted ones if noe one had already) and asked some questions.

  • Do you want sprint in Halo Infinite? majority said no - Do you want dual wielding in Infinite? no - Do you want fall damage in Infinite? no - Do you want clamber in Infinite? noThe Nays are not my argument, it is what I pulled from the forum. Nice to see you took one course in debates, but seriously we need more ludology than lawyerey when discussing game design.
    (not trying to make a point with bullets here it is just the formatting is all buggy).
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Just popping in to leave this link to Favyn’s new video on why Halo Infinite, and future Halo FPS games, would greater benefit from classic mechanics over Spartan Abilities. It lays out the argument very well and cohesively, and explains why there’s more to the gameplay mechanics than it may seem at first glance.

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> > 2533274823912857;2732:
> > > 2666640315087182;2731:
> > > I’m starting to get the whole classic definition is loosely defined. It appears to be more of what there isn’t, not what there is.
> > >
> > > So no sprint like Halo 3, but no Dual Wielding which was in Halo 3, also no fall damage which was in Halo 3, but no clamber (which was in Halo 3 but restricted to NPCs).
> >
> > Halo 3 had no fall damage
>
> that’s what I said. the forums idea of a perfect halo game
> - no sprint - no dual wielding - no fall damage - no clamber - no fun (okay that last one I made up as no one would ever say that but you get the point).

Well I’d argue that gives you a lot of wiggle room incase there’d be a Halo fullfilling all of these critieras (except the last one), yet it’d be the -Yoink- game ever (not because of a lack of these features).

“You got what you wanted from this list, you should be overjoyed and happy with the game”

There’s a plethora of other things regarding a game’s playability other than a bucket-list of features which shouldn’t be present.

It also bringa me back to the thing I said not too long ago, in this thread, about i343’s percieved inability to so anything good and creative with the game if these features weren’t present.

And no, I don’t get the point of the last one.

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> 2535419441797248;2736:
> Just popping in to leave this link to Favyn’s new video on why Halo Infinite, and future Halo FPS games, would greater benefit from classic mechanics over Spartan Abilities. It lays out the argument very well and cohesively, and explains why there’s more to the gameplay mechanics than it may seem at first glance.

This isn’t a new video just his 3rd video on the same stance he always had. But since people here love an argument, lets post the actual debate between Aozolai and Favyn.

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> > 2535419441797248;2736:
> > Just popping in to leave this link to Favyn’s new video on why Halo Infinite, and future Halo FPS games, would greater benefit from classic mechanics over Spartan Abilities. It lays out the argument very well and cohesively, and explains why there’s more to the gameplay mechanics than it may seem at first glance.
>
> This isn’t a new video just his 3rd video on the same stance he always had. But since people here love an argument, lets post the actual debate between Aozolai and Favyn.

It’s a video that was uploaded for the first time today, making it a new video. I didn’t say this is a brand-new view point on the discussion.

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> > >
>
> Nice to see you took one course in debates, but seriously we need more ludology than lawyerey when discussing game design.

If you want complex discussion, try to first not make oversimplified statements such as “classical Halo is defined by what there isn’t, not what there is”. As Celestis illustrated, that is a lazy and disingenuous way to frame the situation. The fact is, whether you’re adding or subtracting features to a game, there are consequences. The general consensus among the classical Halo community is that changes made from Halo:CE to Halo 3 were mostly not detrimental as it didn’t alter the game fundamentally, while from Reach onward the changes were mostly detrimental.

> I am for making players have to chose which advantage they want and not so much for balancing every advantage against each other.

As I am a classic Halo fan, I would say this is a horrible idea. In your simplistic view we could say I “don’t want loadouts”. Another way to phrase it though, is that I prefer equal starts, and prefer earning your advantages through gameplay, a core foundation of classic Halo. Just like a power up or power weapon should be timed and fought for on the map, so too should any other advantage (such as an armour ability pick up).

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I’m assuming that 343 has a huge database of important information.

They will know exactly what numbers of people play classic vs modern. Particularly across the span of the Master Chief Collection.

They will also have data modelling around both groups… which one is more likely to play both… which one is a better funding model (micro-transactions etc)… and which group has the most potential growth.

Whichever way they move forward it will be with the best long term interest of the game…