The return of classic movement mechanics?

Games Halo Infinite
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> 2535446427305943;2678:
> If you want to be exactly 100% factual, Halo 5 and older (say Halo 2) are exactly the same speed at full sprint. In Halo 2 you can shoot, and do whatever you want without breaking top speed. in Halo 5, doing anything makes you slower.
>
> Enhanced Mobility is a Lie in 90 Seconds - YouTube is a good visual aide.

This is false. The movement speeds of Halo games are as follows.

Halo CE, 2, 3: base movement speed (BMS) 2.25 world units per second (WU/s)
Halo Reach, 4: BMS 2.2 WU/s, sprint 3.63 WU/s
Halo 5: BMS 2.6 WU/s, sprint 3.38 WU/s

I can provide sources for Halo CE, 2, 3, 4, and 5 if necessary, as well as for BMS of Reach. The sprint speed of Reach I would need to recheck, but you get the point: the BMS of the original trilogy is definitely lower by quite a significant margin than the sprint speed of Halo 5 (and in fact it is lower than the BMS of Halo 5).

You are a victim of a common misconception. The reason in the video you linked both players arrive at the same spot at the same time after seemingly taking the same path is that they didn’t. Now, the reason is quite obvious when said explicitly: because Midship and Truth are not the same map. Crucially for this point, Truth is quite a bit larger than Midship, which is why the Halo 5 player takes as much time to move around despite moving at a significantly greater speed than the Halo 2 player.

In terms of maximum movement speed, Halo 5 is in fact the third fastest Halo. In terms of base movement speed, Halo 5 is the fastest Halo.

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Because of Sprint, map sizes are increased. But, something people often fail to mention when it comes to Sprint, is that because maps are larger, the cover-to-cover time (How long it takes to go from one piece of cover to the next.) is increased when you aren’t sprinting. The base movement speed advantage Halo 5 has over previous Halo games, is largely negated due to the sheer scale of the maps. Of course, it feels fine when you’re sprinting, because the maps are designed around the max player movement speed, but you aren’t always sprinting, because you need to stop sprinting if you want to shoot something. This messes with the overall pacing of gameplay, because it makes maps feel more open, leaving you feel slower relative to the map when you are shooting. Shooting being the main gameplay aspect of Halo, means the game will feel relatively slow, fairly often when maps are scaled up because they are designed around Sprint.

Relative to map size, movement is slow when you aren’t Sprinting. This is what people mean when they say newer Halo games feel “slow”. Halo 1-3 had steadier pacing relative to map scale, which makes the player feel better by retaining a steadier sense of momentum. This is what gave Halo its “feel”, at least as far as map design and movement goes.

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> 2533274825830455;2682:
> > 2535446427305943;2678:
> > If you want to be exactly 100% factual, Halo 5 and older (say Halo 2) are exactly the same speed at full sprint. In Halo 2 you can shoot, and do whatever you want without breaking top speed. in Halo 5, doing anything makes you slower.
> >
> > Enhanced Mobility is a Lie in 90 Seconds - YouTube is a good visual aide.
>
> This is false. The movement speeds of Halo games are as follows.
>
> Halo CE, 2, 3: base movement speed (BMS) 2.25 world units per second (WU/s)
> Halo Reach, 4: BMS 2.2 WU/s, sprint 3.63 WU/s
> Halo 5: BMS 2.6 WU/s, sprint 3.38 WU/s
>
> I can provide sources for Halo CE, 2, 3, 4, and 5 if necessary, as well as for BMS of Reach. The sprint speed of Reach I would need to recheck, but you get the point: the BMS of the original trilogy is definitely lower by quite a significant margin than the sprint speed of Halo 5 (and in fact it is lower than the BMS of Halo 5).
>
> You are a victim of a common misconception. The reason in the video you linked both players arrive at the same spot at the same time after seemingly taking the same path is that they didn’t. Now, the reason is quite obvious when said explicitly: because Midship and Truth are not the same map. Crucially for this point, Truth is quite a bit larger than Midship, which is why the Halo 5 player takes as much time to move around despite moving at a significantly greater speed than the Halo 2 player.
>
> In terms of maximum movement speed, Halo 5 is in fact the third fastest Halo. In terms of base movement speed, Halo 5 is the fastest Halo.

I edited my post to say that I didn’t do pixel measurements, I’m looking at the way the maps are. See the youtube video I posted earlier. In the same map. We are literally saying the exact same thing but you’re using it to disprove a point that I didn’t make, and if I seemed that I made that point, it was by pure accident. Nobody who is on the "side of the debate " that sprint and clamber are bad in halo actually believe that in halo 2 you’re faster in the exact same room at the exact same time as a spartan IV in halo 5.

Let me elaborate on this. I’ll use an example just because I like labs. Enhanced Mobility is a Lie in 90 Seconds - YouTube Two mice. One is faster, and the other has workable thumbs. If you put both of them in a race, the faster one wins (that’s halo 5).

But what’s actually going on here is that mouse 5 and mouse 2 are in different laboratories that both look white, as a lab does. But lab 5 is larger in scale. So Mouse 5 might be physically faster. but 5 is going as fast as he can, and he cannot shoot, turn, throw grenades, reload, melee, or anything like that. 2 is working with an average jog, he can spin around, and do all of those things and both characters reach the end of their respective courses at around the same time.

In no way am I alleging that in Halo 2 you’re somehow faster (world measurements and things, like an actual footrace [same map, same room]) than you are in 5. That’s ridiculous. The point is that the map design has to be changed around the fact that now you can run fast and you are unable to do anything while running fast. In Halo 5’s version of the same map you reach the same spot at the same time but you’re sprinting and you cannot shoot.

Also in regards to clamber, it’s the exact same argument. You probably have the tools to tell me that in halo 5 you can clear higher areas vertically with clamber than you do in 2. Let’s just take that as fact, but in halo 2 you just jump and land on it, wherever you’re supposed to be you can get there. You can do it forwards, backwards, side to side, you aren’t locked in an animation.

The reason why enhanced mobility is bad is that despite reaching the (Relative) same spot at the (Exact) same time, you’re limited in what you can actually do.

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> 2535446427305943;2684:
> I edited my post to say that I didn’t do pixel measurements, I’m looking at the way the maps are. See the youtube video I posted earlier. In the same map. We are literally saying the exact same thing but you’re using it to disprove a point that I didn’t make, and if I seemed that I made that point, it was by pure accident. Nobody who is on the "side of the debate " that sprint and clamber are bad in halo actually believe that in halo 2 you’re faster in the exact same room at the exact same time as a spartan IV in halo 5.
>
> Let me elaborate on this. I’ll use an example just because I like labs. Enhanced Mobility is a Lie in 90 Seconds - YouTube Two mice. One is faster, and the other has workable thumbs. If you put both of them in a race, the faster one wins (that’s halo 5).
>
> But what’s actually going on here is that mouse 5 and mouse 2 are in different laboratories that both look white, as a lab does. But lab 5 is larger in scale. So Mouse 5 might be physically faster. but 5 is going as fast as he can, and he cannot shoot, turn, throw grenades, reload, melee, or anything like that. 2 is working with an average jog, he can spin around, and do all of those things and both characters reach the end of their respective courses at around the same time.
>
> In no way am I alleging that in Halo 2 you’re somehow faster (world measurements and things, like an actual footrace [same map, same room]) than you are in 5. That’s ridiculous. The point is that the map design has to be changed around the fact that now you can run fast and you are unable to do anything while running fast. In Halo 5’s version of the same map you reach the same spot at the same time but you’re sprinting and you cannot shoot.
>
> Also in regards to clamber, it’s the exact same argument. You probably have the tools to tell me that in halo 5 you can clear higher areas vertically with clamber than you do in 2. Let’s just take that as fact, but in halo 2 you just jump and land on it, wherever you’re supposed to be you can get there. You can do it forwards, backwards, side to side, you aren’t locked in an animation.
>
> The reason why enhanced mobility is bad is that despite reaching the (Relative) same spot at the (Exact) same time, you’re limited in what you can actually do.
>
> Sprint in Halo is an illusion and CAN NOT be Defended! (Please Read The Description) - YouTube

Well, sorry if I misinterpreted what you said. The phrasing just made it sound like you were talking about movement speed, namely the part “Halo 5 and older (say Halo 2) are exactly the same speed at full sprint”.

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> 2533274825830455;2685:
> > 2535446427305943;2684:
> > I edited my post to say that I didn’t do pixel measurements, I’m looking at the way the maps are.
> >
> > The reason why enhanced mobility is bad is that despite reaching the (Relative) same spot at the (Exact) same time, you’re limited in what you can actually do.
> >
> > Sprint in Halo is an illusion and CAN NOT be Defended! (Please Read The Description) - YouTube
>
> Well, sorry if I misinterpreted what you said. The phrasing just made it sound like you were talking about movement speed, namely the part “Halo 5 and older (say Halo 2) are exactly the same speed at full sprint”.

No problem! Have a good night.

2687

Halo infinite should be more like reach (minus the load outs). Base player speed should be increased. Everyone starts off with thrusters and clamber. Sprint should be a pickup ability like equipment from halo 3. Spartan charge and slide can only be used if u have sprint attached. 343 can bring back other equipment and armor abilities, like jetpack and the bubble shield but they’ll only be pick up items.
You can’t use thrusters if you have other equipment attached and ground pound can be tied to melee power weapons like the gravity hammer and the energy sword. I don’t know how they would balance this tho.

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> > > > 2533274795123910;2672:
> > > > > 2533274874453277;2670:
> > > > > But I think it’s a good idea, and the reason is very simple: the competitive is not for everyone. never has been. Each halo had competitive playlists with different rules and settings from the rest of the game. The H5 mistake was trying to make players who do not like competitive to play it.
> > > >
> > > > No, not really. Halo 2 and Halo 3’s Ranked vs Unranked playlists were almost identical, save a few minute details, but you would always play with the same ruleset.
> > > >
> > > > MLG was nothing more than an additional different playlists like that of SWAT, Action Sack and Grifball.
> > >
> > > So, playing SMG or BR start is just a matter of small details? Halo Reach was even more extreme, removing the abilities except for only one pick-up on the map.
> > >
> > > If you don’t see significant differences in this, I certainly can’t show it to you.
> >
> > BR vs SMG is quite the minute detail when you’d compare it to enabling / disabling player traits such as sprint, clamber and so forth. You do realise I did say that the bigger and bigger differentiations between social and competitive playlists really kicked it off with Reach? Also completely disregarding the even bigger differences between your suggested game modes.
> >
> > As also mentioned in the quote, I do not regard MLG to be of any significance as it’s more of a niche playlist made by the community, like SWAT, Action Sack and Grifball.
> >
> > Or do you think SWAT should be a relevant playlist to take into account when discussing mainlinr competitive/social playlists regarding how Shields should be handled?
> >
> > Or perhaps you actually do not have a good answer to defend the notion of further drivning a wedge between what you’ve labled competitive and social?
> > Or the rest of the post for that matter.
>
> I just said my opinion bro, don’t get angry :slight_smile:

I’m not angry, sorry if it does come off as angry.
I’m challenging your views and opinions, perhaps in a bit unjust blunt way.

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> 2533274889489936;2:
> As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?

That’s why they have vehicles in the game, to get around more quickly!

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> 2533274891408731;2687:
> Halo infinite should be more like reach (minus the load outs). Base player speed should be increased. Everyone starts off with thrusters and clamber. Sprint should be a pickup ability like equipment from halo 3. Spartan charge and slide can only be used if u have sprint attached. 343 can bring back other equipment and armor abilities, like jetpack and the bubble shield but they’ll only be pick up items.
> You can’t use thrusters if you have other equipment attached and ground pound can be tied to melee power weapons like the gravity hammer and the energy sword. I don’t know how they would balance this tho.

This sounds more like Halo 4 (minus the loadouts). Also sounds like you are having two armor abilities as pickups.
Now I like Reaches Loadouts because they were set by the game type not the player. So any problems with loadouts (like BR start being too powerful) you can set that in the gametype.

As for Clamber well if you are going to have sprint as a pick up then clamber should be as well. For thrusters we can scrap that. I don’t see the need for sprint and super sprint.

> 2535410161713257;2689:
> > 2533274889489936;2:
> > As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?
>
> That’s why they have vehicles in the game, to get around more quickly!

Agreed but I don’t think sprint has to be taken out completely. Just make sure people can’t run faster than a tank.

2691

Honestly adding the running mechanic really annoyed me, it just seemed like an attempt to incorporate COD movement to steal people away from COD. I think the return to the old movement would really be a nice return.

2692

Classic movement (i.e. no sprint) with thrusters, and maybe clamber (not as a replacement for crouch jumps though), seems a good midway point for fans of each system.

2693

Strangely enough, I love both movement mechanics. Though I believe that is because of level design between the games. Halo 5 had bigger more open maps, where running climbing and boosting are needed. While the bungie halo games had smaller, more deliberate, maps where it didn’t take to long to get around. And Reach was that odd mix of large open areas with small close-quarter rooms. Honestly, I miss the old style halo games.

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> 2533274891408731;2687:
> Halo infinite should be more like reach (minus the load outs). Base player speed should be increased. Everyone starts off with thrusters and clamber. Sprint should be a pickup ability like equipment from halo 3. Spartan charge and slide can only be used if u have sprint attached. 343 can bring back other equipment and armor abilities, like jetpack and the bubble shield but they’ll only be pick up items.
> You can’t use thrusters if you have other equipment attached and ground pound can be tied to melee power weapons like the gravity hammer and the energy sword. I don’t know how they would balance this tho.

Speed boost is much better than Sprint, as you can still shoot your gun, melee, and throw grenades. All of the other Spartan Abilities can be in the game, but please, no Spartan Charge. Slide could still work with speed boost, but I’d rather be without it.

Instead of jetpacks, I would prefer grav cannons. Better for the map flow.

I’d prefer Bubble Shield not coming back, because it was essentially a “get out of jail free card”, and I didn’t personally enjoy the equipment gameplay in general.

Ground Pound attached to the Gravity Hammer is definitely a neat idea, that I’ve heard a few times, and I agree with thrusters and clamber (although it shouldn’t negate crouch jumps, if possible).

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> 2535419441797248;2694:
> > 2533274891408731;2687:
> > Halo infinite should be more like reach (minus the load outs). Base player speed should be increased. Everyone starts off with thrusters and clamber. Sprint should be a pickup ability like equipment from halo 3. Spartan charge and slide can only be used if u have sprint attached. 343 can bring back other equipment and armor abilities, like jetpack and the bubble shield but they’ll only be pick up items.
> > You can’t use thrusters if you have other equipment attached and ground pound can be tied to melee power weapons like the gravity hammer and the energy sword. I don’t know how they would balance this tho.
>
> … All of the other Spartan Abilities can be in the game, but please, no Spartan Charge. …

Yes.

It rewards players for sprinting, which shouldn’t be the case, while frustrating to be on the receiving end of it.

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> 2533274825830455;2682:
> > 2535446427305943;2678:
> > If you want to be exactly 100% factual, Halo 5 and older (say Halo 2) are exactly the same speed at full sprint. In Halo 2 you can shoot, and do whatever you want without breaking top speed. in Halo 5, doing anything makes you slower.
> >
> > Enhanced Mobility is a Lie in 90 Seconds - YouTube is a good visual aide.
>
> This is false. The movement speeds of Halo games are as follows.
>
> Halo CE, 2, 3: base movement speed (BMS) 2.25 world units per second (WU/s)
> Halo Reach, 4: BMS 2.2 WU/s, sprint 3.63 WU/s
> Halo 5: BMS 2.6 WU/s, sprint 3.38 WU/s
>
> I can provide sources for Halo CE, 2, 3, 4, and 5 if necessary, as well as for BMS of Reach. The sprint speed of Reach I would need to recheck, but you get the point: the BMS of the original trilogy is definitely lower by quite a significant margin than the sprint speed of Halo 5 (and in fact it is lower than the BMS of Halo 5).
>
> You are a victim of a common misconception. The reason in the video you linked both players arrive at the same spot at the same time after seemingly taking the same path is that they didn’t. Now, the reason is quite obvious when said explicitly: because Midship and Truth are not the same map. Crucially for this point, Truth is quite a bit larger than Midship, which is why the Halo 5 player takes as much time to move around despite moving at a significantly greater speed than the Halo 2 player.
>
> In terms of maximum movement speed, Halo 5 is in fact the third fastest Halo. In terms of base movement speed, Halo 5 is the fastest Halo.

yes technically, but it doesn’t matter because halo 5 maps are huge to accommodate sprint making the bms feel slow

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> 2535425511078773;2681:
> Look at where sprint and advanced mobility are in the current landscape of fps games. CoD has returned to boots on the ground, Borderland’s is still just sprint, with sliding and mantling now, Battlefield is just sprint, Destiny is also just sprint essentially. DOOM has what I would consider the best form of movement currently and that’s just the character moving at a faced pace, that’s not really sprint, with double jump. Granted in Eternal they’re adding a dash but it’s still the bare basics. It’ll feel like DOOM. And that’s the point, as long has it feels like Halo then that needs to be the focus. We aren’t seeing advanced mobility as much anymore, that time came and went. I’d like to see classic movement, but if it leans to some combination of both current and classic then I’ll be okay with it and make it work. Halo 4 is just sprint and that was, I’m sure, jarring at first but with time you learn to play and get used to the controls. I played a lot of Halo 5 and got used to it. I play a lot of MCC and can play it fine just as well. It’s whatever 343 decides and I’m sure us talking about it has some influence.

You are wrong on the Destiny front. High level players use enhanced mobility all the time to avoid damage, move quickly, and entire encounters are designed around it. “Classic” movement works for Halo, but it never was the default for all of FPS like many blinded Halo fans think. .Games like Tribes and Quake played much faster than Halo and never had the restricted mobility Halo had. I want classic movement back, but we need to realize that part of the reason for the longer time to kill and lack of mobility of the original games was the fact developers were still getting used to making console FPS games.

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> 2533274889489936;2:
> As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?

No. As in the return of better designed maps and better gameplay.

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I feel like a more accurate term for what’s being discussed here is “removal of movement mechanics”. Because the classic movement mechanics are still there. You can still crouch jump, you can still strafe and duck to avoid shots. you just can supplement that moveset with other things.

The ground pound and charge could probably go, not because they totally overshadow the other mechanics but they don’t really complement them. Other than that, we should just be adding more things that offer new possibilities and design spaces.

by the way, the fact that map design has changed due to the new mechanics is a POSITIVE thing. Just arbitrarily deciding that stretched out map design is bad is just as dumb as looking at old halo maps and saying they’re “too small” and offering that as a reason why they’re bad

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> 2535449076192416;1:
> In my opinion, this game has a really high chance of bringing back the classic gameplay so many old Halo fans have adored! I am so pumped for this!
>
> EDIT: Wow, I didn’t expect such diverse opinions on this subject. The Halo community really is split in half. I’m sorry you have to deal with us, 343 :confused:
>
> EDIT: 1100 comments. __What have I done?__FINAL EDIT: I’m just going to stop counting at this point. The level of which this thread has grown is simply ridiculous.
>
> POINTLESS EDIT: Hey, 117 likes. Good for me.

Well lets see the statistics. Halo: CE was a risk Bungie made, and it payed off. They made a LOT of money due to its success, and was a major hit in the gaming industry. Then they released Halo 2, and it did far better than CE did, both in sales and popularity. When Halo 3 came around, same thing: It made more money, and was the most popular game (possibly top 5) for nearly 10 years straight! Then Bungie released Reach, and it was… debatable… possibly the best, and worst, release for the Halo franchise. The only negatives was that it broke MLG, and became a game of cat and mouse (I don’t remember… going to have to watch HiddenXperias video about it again). Other than that, Reach was really good. Sadly, sold less than Halo 3… but then Bungie left, gave it (still debatable if that was a mistake) to 343. Then 343 created Halo 4. Its success in profit was merited from the success of Halo 3. But the community? Outraged. There is a drastic mechanical difference between Halo 3 and Halo 4, and needless to say, the community was not at ALL happy about it. Then 343, had the audacity to ignore its core audience, and created Halo 5. The only up side? Custom games… otherwise, things came in late, such as Forge, Infection, so on… the story sucked badly, multiplayer tainted with out of character designs, the lighting was badly designed (or redesigned), the spartan armors looed like plastic, and not armor at all… customization was bare bones between 4 options, of a helmet, chest, arms and legs (with lack of selectivity in either the left or right arms/legs). Armors were reskins of themselves by nearly hundreds… 343 could have done it better, by offering 1 helmet type of all the types, and added a new mechanic to add a shape to the helmet instead of 10+ of the same helmet with different shapes. The game was a cat and mouse design, designed by those who HATED Halo and coincidentally LOVED Call of Duty (I’d call that a breach in National Security, if you know what I mean). More on the campaign, it was NOT fun on Legendary. It became a game of sniping all the enemies from across the maps, trying to prevent myself from being snipped by tracking rounds from even the most common Promethean enemy. When enemies melee’d, you had no time to react, AI designs were poor… in short, comparing Halo 5 to Halo 3, even Halo 4, Halo 5 was a complete downgrade with the only positives being literally custom games. Another down side? The lootboxes, or as 343 put it: Req points/packages. Again, the audacity and arrogance (I’m being heavily critical, because I believe I have to). So going back to the point, Halo 4 sold so well because of Halo 3, but Halo 5 sold better than Halo 2, but worse than Halo 3 (if I recall correctly). So with that said, its a MUST that classic gameplay return, because otherwise, Infinite will flunk like 4 and 5 did. So IMO? Either Infinite becomes what it must, or I’d rather the honor and dignity of the franchise have died off since Reach due to the embarrassment (yes, I’m heavily critical, but when you seemingly intentionally ruin such a near perfect game into oblivion, there are some that will be heavily critical, maybe others being extreme about it).

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> 2533274985411302;2698:
> > 2533274889489936;2:
> > As in we all have to walk around really slowly and such?
>
> No. As in the return of better designed maps and better gameplay.

no one has ever been able to explain to me why they’re badly designed other than pointing out how the design has changed in practical ways to accommodate the gameplay additions, which sounds… normal? and good?