It should not be biased and forcing you to remain relative to a hidden stat. If you won the game, you deserve to be rewarded well for winning that game. Doesn’t matter who you were playing against, how you played in previous games, how high your KD was, etc. If you won that game you deserve tp be rewarded with a fair amount of CSR. If you lose the game, you deserve to lose a fair amount of CSR. Not nothing, and not literally ALL your rank progress either. Just a fair amount for losing.
Matchmaking should just be you can match anyone your rank, 2 sub ranks below or 2 sub ranks above you. So if you are a Diamond 4, you should match anyone in the ranks Diamond 2-6. Thats it. No bronze, silver, gold, platinum, onyx players should be in your lobbies unless you are in the same rank range. It should not be based on some hidden stat.
Furthermore dont balance the teams in a way that puts someone really good on a team with terrible players and then the other team balance out by being all average. That sounds fine on paper but in game is AWFUL.
Why does it have to be so complicated and weirdly put together? Just keep it simple. Go up for a win, down for a loss. Match similar ranks together and against each other. The skill levels will be determined through the ranks as the season goes on and you will get good games for the whole season even with a lower population.
It’s not forcing you to remain at that “hidden” stat. It’s up to you to prove you deserve to rank up - by showing that you can go toe to toe with that level.
And it’s not “hidden”. Once your MMR has narrowed and settled your CSR pretty much oscillates around it.
Once you have played about 50 games you can be pretty sure that your MMR is within +/- 15 points of your CSR.
That’s not how ranking systems work. The quality of your opposition is everything.
If the #2 tennis player in the world beats the #1000 player in a warm up tournament - should they rank up to #1?
Lucky for you KD means nothing. Zilch.
The metric is kills per minute. And it’s only a weighting.
The only thing you “deserve” is XP. And the sooner they bring in a proper XP rank the better. And it should be weighted to wins, medals, and score.
I don’t think you ever get “nothing”. But the numbers are rounded up and down on the scoreboard.
And the CSR progress is tricky. The system gives you a small amount of CSR for any win - but your MMR isn’t that silly. It won’t budge until you beat (or lose) to a better (or worse) team. So you may gain a bit of CSR on the back of “token” wins - but you haven’t proved to your MMR that you deserve it - and on the next loss it takes it back.
MM is probably even tighter than that. But it has to make concessions based on population strength and waiting times.
And generally your CSR reflects your MMR so it’s not “hidden”. It’s really only post placement that your CSR can be way below your MMR (when your MMR curve is wide).
Wide spreads of ranks is usually because of a group of players together as a squad. But recent changes have put a restriction on who can play together so it shouldn’t be as bad as it was.
Again - a lot of it was people playing as squads.
And it can upset the game experience - so 343 have now put a limit on squads.
But MM may have to cobble things when server populations are struggling (which seems to be sadly becoming more frequent).
Keep in mind that squads are weighted in the MMR balance - so while the games may not be as fun - there are still pretty much as predicted in terms of match making.
It is complicated. But it ranks you so much faster than simple win / loss sorting (which can take 100’s if not 1000’s of games to sort everyone).
TrueSkill2 can ball park your skill in a handful of games. And nail it in less than 50 (for a 4v4 game list).
The system knows your skill. The “good” games is sadly dependent on what the MM can do at the time.
Well, I agree with this, That you should go up as you win and when you play against higher levels and you lose you go down I shouldn’t have to win 50 games to go up or not while playing with lower ranks and they are going up how is that fair to the people who are trying to put in the time. and you can say it’s not hidden but when the hidden MMR stops your CSR growth there is a problem because that should be something that is not so heavily used when its a value the players cant see go up or down so it makes the growth seem like it’s not there.
It’s pretty much the basis of any ranking algorithm.
Beat a team ranked above you and move up.
Lose to a team ranked below you and move down.
No. By 50 games is the time the system needs to nail your rank as accurately as possible.
The early games are the most volatile. Your MMR is going up and down all over the place (performance depending). Swinging on each result. It’s pretty much why they have to hide your CSR for the first ten games.
Are we talking about the same thing?
You can put in the time… but the truth is once you hit your skill ceiling it is going to be very slow improvement. It’s the same with any skill - tennis, crochet, chess.
Golf players spend months, if not years, trying to shave a stroke off their handicap.
Eventually the reality is that all your hard time and effort is needed to simply maintain the rank you have!
It is your skill in the game that is stopping your MMR going up, which in turn is stopping your CSR going up.
Sadly, at some stage, the “growth” just isn’t there.
Which is why we so desperately need an XP rank to direct the focus of attention.
I see you all the time on these posts defending this ranking system. Why are you defending something the majority of people agree is terrible and have stopped playing ranked because of it? There is no way you have played any other ranked games if you think this is a good system.
And your little analogy of the #2 tennis player against the #1000 tennis player doesnt work because if it is a “warm up tournament” like you said then it wouldnt have any impact on their “rank”. And if it wasnt a “warm up” tournament the #1000 player would get knocked out long before he played the #2 player, which matches my reasoning as to why you shouldnt be matching anyone way outside your rank range.
take a look at my first 7 games. The system puts me in games I’m apparently not supposed to be, there is no other explanation for getting a K/d of over 2.5
In 2 games where I got 1 and 3 CSR have been onyx/D6 players. My teammares mostly were tge same skill as the opponents. And yet, I get almost no CSR. Thats the H3 rank lock all over again…
And dare me losing ONE game, for whatever reason… the 6 wins are completely useless.
Why putme in these games anyway if Im supposed to win those?
Don’t get me wrong, I usually play D4-D5, im only down to D2 because I don’t play on US servers… I simply don’t care about the rank. And it’s kinda relaxing playing these games, especially because the servers feel great today. BUT: what’s the point?
A) The system doesn’t put me up against equal players (even if there CSR says so)
I’m not defending Darwi, nor do I want to speak for anyone else, but as of late I believe Darwi is expressing that the rank we are given shouldn’t be the focus for us to strive for. He has said something like an xp should be the focus (although that apparently motivates no one as it hasn’t really caught steam yet). So something else should be there for us to achieve, otherwise I completely agree that this current system gives ZERO motivation for me to try to win (for me atleast and I think many others from what I’ve read)
I know, I think he and I are on the same page regarding a xp rank system. But still: my games today show that system just isn’t working. Maybe it’s due to low population I don’t know. But I can’t imagine that there arent any D3-6 players (roughly my skill).
Anyway… it’s been discussed so many times before… I just wanted to bring it up because the experience today is pretty unique to me.
And there you have it: first loss, 1078 mmr (my team) vs 1094 mmr. -15 CSR.
How, how on earth can a system like this pass QA. Its the perfect example that something may look good on paper but ISNT working in RL. There can be 100 more talks at GDC, the system fails. Not only in matching good teams (look at tge 7 games in a row) nor in, at that’s the most cricial part: encouraging the player to play. Even without a XP rank system, the ultimate goal has to be: keep the player playing. Playing for 5 hours just to be at the same point as at the beginning doesn’t do that.
The system may work in the back, it may work in other games. In infinite, it fails miserably the was. it is implemented, presented and explained. In other words: the system is trash.
Did you ever play with Golds and Plats with Onyx backgrounds/emblems, ie legit Onyxs in Gold, then they just wipe the floor with everyone and don’t rank up? It’s hilarious. I think we’re all just getting trolled.
The last 10 games I’ve played have been no fun, I win three games and go up only to lose one and lose any progress I’m sick of going from plat 6 to diamond 1to plat six again and again.
Each match also feels super sweaty I don’t know what changed from about a month ago to now but I just can’t enjoy Halo at all.
I’m just defending the ranking system (TrueSkill2) as a ranking system.
Mainly just trying to stop the spread of misinformation.
I don’t see why people would stop playing ranked for that particular reason.
It was a soft analogy.
My point was only that the system can’t make any new conclusions if you beat up a lower ranked team.
If it makes you any happier make it the #2 player vs the #100 in a pre-major qualifying tournament.
I’m not trying to. A ranking system should just do it’s job and rank you. And I think the way TrueSkill2 does that is fascinating.
Of course, the rank you achieve should be motivating in itself.
But it’s up to the developer to dress up the CSR and make it fun and encouraging, And here I agree that 343 have pretty much failed.
Both in execution and communication.
Using the same scale as the MMR was just silly. The way they engineered the CSR to oscillate around the MMR just sets up people for disappointment as they are teased with a slow gain of CSR only to lose it on the next loss just upsets people.
And 343 seem to be happy to encourage this CSR grind.
The system just isn’t accurate to this scale. I dare say that 1650 vs 1675 means little. It certainly doesn’t hold across servers or time zones. And in the old days both would have been a ‘50’ and everyone was happy.
You need to step back and separate the match making from the ranking. And it’s suffering with the available population.
Improving the ranking system isn’t going to find you better games.
No. It’s not H3 rank lock. That MMR was nigh on immovable.
I don’t know the specific of your rank vs everyone else… but if you were lower down your rank doesn’t tend to go up much on the win. I don’t know for sure but I think this is where the kpm metric is used. If you are playing out of your weight division and want to rank up on the win then you have to show your kpm matches that of everyone else in the game.
Again, this is people getting hung up one or two results. Ranking doesn’t work like that.
Yes you gone up six steps and back one “leap”. But it’s only 15 points. In the scale of things it’s not much. And essentially your CSR is just oscillating around your MMR - which hasn’t moved because you haven’t actually improved in skill.
And don’t get me wrong. I lost a couple of games recently and lost heaps of CSR. It was demoralising. And I should know better. But the way 343 presents it is just -yoink-.
Again… MM system not rank. It’s beholden to the server population at the time. And keep in mind that people early into their season may have a CSR well below their mean MMR.
You don’t progress because you don’t win the key games vs the harder opposition.
That may not always be in your control. Not getting a lot of games to give you that chance and/or badly timed team-mates and lag. Which is again a reason not to get hung up on the game by game progress. Your rank will sort itself out over days to weeks.
Because it’s a super fast way of accurately ranking you.
Just because matchmaking is suffering with poor population and the CSR is a poor excuse for a progression system - is not a reason to abandon the one component that is working.
Oh, go on. It would be nice to have someone in my corner…
You should strive for the highest rank you can. But the reality is that you will get there pretty fast and once you hit your “ceiling” then it is very tough to go up from there. It’s the same with pretty much any life or recreational skill.
And that doesn’t make for a good reward / progression system.
Hence the need for an XP rank.
Population. Even a month or so ago the games were much, much, tighter.
Again. In that 5 hours did you become a better player? Probably unlikely. So the ranking system can’t really rank you up
The fact that your CSR dropped -15 on a relatively tight match suggests that your CSR had drifted above your MMR. You were winning but not doing enough to convince the system to rank you up.
Disagree. Agree. Agree.
Not entirely sure what you are trying to say here?
But while a lot of Smurfs have a low CSR their MMR can be a lot higher. So while it looks like they aren’t ranking up a lot - remember that their CSR can only go up by 15. If they are playing better than that their MMR is probably going up a lot faster.
Impressive KDA. But remember that won’t have any affect on your CSR. If your kpm was solid against tougher opposition that may push your MMR up - which can then pull on your CSR in the next game.
The zero is just rounded. So you may have got 0.49 for all we know.
But if your CSR isn’t going up it’s probably because it has already drifted above your MMR. ie. on the back of a few wins against lower ranked teams.
And again. I agree. It is a poorly presented system. And it’s foibles are probably being exposed even more with the lower population. A lot of players are likely getting more “dead rubbers” that are just grinding your CSR even higher than your MMR. Setting you up for an even bigger fall on the next loss.
Please 343, for the love of all things Halo…
Add in the XP rank. Weighted to wins, score, and medals. Give it military ranks.
Reduce the scale of the CSR. 1 to 117 sounds lovely.
Explain the system better. Communicate with us. Josh Menke used to by on waypoint and he would produce graphics for people showing their MMR across playlists. And even let them know their kpm vs different opposition. If you don’t have someone to do this - at least set up waypoint to automatically give us this information for ourselves.
Reward wins. I would use “Championship” points. Every time you win a game that is evenly spread in a division with acceptable ping - then you get a championship point in that division. You can then have seasonal leader boards, and people can concentrate on winning in the weight division as opposed to a toxic grind to levels out of their class.
If you’ve actually improved in skill then you rank up in time. If you are going 50:50 in the games vs teams ranked above you… and matching the kpm of those players… you will rank up.
Otherwise you will keep oscillating where you are.
When seen in a purely numerical standpoint your point is fine but what does that translate to when put into reality in the current state of the game? 15 points relates to potentially 6 or 7 win and 6 or 7 games relates to about 2-3 hours worth of gameplay. I appreciate you just want to bury your head in the sand regarding the reality of the matchmaking at the minute and justify it with stats on page but you also have to appreciate most people really can’t dedicate time to a game where 2-3 hours of someone playing well can be undone in a 20 minute match. Then the game proceeds to churn out matches where even though they might win, they aren’t winning the correct way and will make no rank progress vs that -15 CSR.
You appear to forgive they shortcomings of the system because of the condition of the game but I feel the system shouldn’t be so rigid and shortsighted that it should work within the current condition of the game and be able to deal with factors as predictable as a drop in population. If trueskill2 can’t deliver fair games and rank distribution outside it’s perfect conditions then surely that’s proof enough it’s a terrible philosophy
The problem is people are burying their heads in the sand that those few CSR points mean anything in terms of their skill level.
They don’t.
Essentially “nothing” is being undone. You haven’t improved in skill - so you don’t deserve to rank up. Of course you won the game - so you do deserve XP points etc.
And it’s 343 mistake for rewarding players with CSR that they haven’t earned. They wouldn’t have to take it back if they didn’t go handing it out willy nilly in the first place.
And yes, it’s made worse by matchmaking at the moment. Good players are getting their majority of games vs lower ranked sides. It’s just keeps pushing their CSR further above their MMR.
The reality is that 2-3 hours of play isn’t enough for players at their “skill ceiling” to show any genuine improvement. Outside, that is, of natural fluctuations in form and/or winning streaks against sub-par opponents.
I doubt there are many golfers out there that expect to see their handicap drop just on the basis of playing for a couple of hours.
So, the onus is on 343 to “reward” players and keep them playing through other mechanisms.
That’s a long bow to draw.
Any match making system relies on a healthy population to draw from.
And any ranking system relies on good data. The poorer the data the longer it will take to move players around. But in the end the better system (ie. TrueSkill2) should still out perform other options.
And again… 343 could fix this by;
Stop giving token CSR for meaningless wins. Just tell the player then and there why they didn’t get points (ie. they only beat up a crappy team and/or performed poorly).
See, thatss the problem… it doesn’t, at least always, work. Just look at my games yesterday. Last game was a win over a team of 4 with 120 MMR gap (something you usually don’t see…). KD was 2. Not ONE CSR. On the other hand, -15 for a game I was expected to loose?
MMR not matching CSR is true… because I usually play D3-D5. I just dropped to D1 because I refuse to play on BS Servers. Maybe the system kicks in to punish DNFs in this way, I don’t know…
A win rate of 86%, 12 wins and 2 losses, a K/D of 1.76 tells otherwise. Did I get better than my D4 last week? probably not, but destroying players on my same shown rank should be some kind of an indicator I play better than them
Don’t get me wrong… yesterday was oneof the most enjoyable session in a LONG time. Great serves, opponents dropping like flies, no teams of high Onyx players… hell, put me in platinum if that’s the experience I get for it.
I just brought it up, because it shows, that the system, probably due to the very low population, isn’t working. And it’s not particulary because I didn’t rank up. It’s mostly seeing the ranks of teammates and opponents. There are tons of Onyx players getting absolutely smashed, either on my team or on the other. But do they rank down? Hardly…
Same goes for D3 players, going -15. Sure, bad games happen but since the pool is so small by now, you ran into them pretty often… and -15 doesn’t happen to a D3 in a normal lobby. These palyers are clearly misplaced.
Another indicator: I’ve a win rate of 53.3 and K/d of 1.27… shouldn’t the system try to place me at 50 an 1?^^
The last 25 games are at 68% and 1.76 (even with the 5 or 6 DNF and thrown games, and that results in +10? Nice.
As I said, I don’t want to rank up… I actually just want you to acknowledge that the system isn’t the tip of perfection, the messiahs or the 100% go to system to place people.
Because I assure you… my personal skillrank would be a completely different one if I’d play 2 days with two legit D6/Onyx players. Onyx would be a piece of cake…
I completely agree with you.
I just went solo and the enemy was a party of 4 onyxes with MMR in the 1200s.
My allies were 1 onyx, 5 diamonds 1, 3 diamonds 2 and MMR was in the 1400s.
Of course, we lost the match.
The MMR was completely inaccurate. I was indeed fed up.
