The problem with BR and AR starts.

There is a major flaw in both of these starts. At least by drawing conclusions from what I’ve seen here on the forums.

Let’s start with BR starts:
The BR is considered a “campy weapon,” and no “map control required.” The BR is not a campy weapon in any sense. It’s an empowering weapon. It actually makes you look for kills. Knowing that you have a power weapon makes you want to go out and find people. It is not a campy weapon. Now no “map control” required. Let’s just stop that now. There are more powerful weapons than the BR and they still require control, so yes map control is still required. Now here’s the problem with BR starts. Giving everyone a power weapon from the beginning causes many weapons to become obsolete. This is a Tiered weapon system:

Lower Tier: Pistol / AR / SMG; These weapons will protect you at close range and get the job done if used correctly.

Mid Tier: BR / DMR / LR / Carbine; These weapons are good at close, mid and far range. With minor differences. However every weapon should have it’s counter weapon and if someone gets in your face don’t be mad if the SMG shreds you, because it is suppose to.

High Tier: Sniper Rifle / Sword / Rockets / Shotgun; These all have their downside. Sniper is meant for far range. Shotgun / Sword is close up. Rockets Mid range.

Now if everyone has a BR. Why would you even think about picking up an SMG? or a Pistol? You probably don’t. Their may be a few people that will, but how often will you find yourself in someone’s face if you know they have a good mid-ranged weapon? Not often. This is seen in BR starts.

For example: I picked up an SMG myself, during BR starts, and automatically put it away for the BR. It was my “just in case weapon.” I ended up dying without using it. So the problem with BR starts is we’ve automatically skipped the Lower tier of weapons and started in the Mid tier. There is no longer competition for the Lower Tier. It leaves us with the Mid Tier and High Tier.

AR Starts:
The key complaint with AR starts seems to be that they are overpowered (ARs), and less competitive. “They cause the game to be less competitive, because they are not precision weapons and left to aim, spray and get lucky.”

It seems that some feel this causes them to die from the AR and that they are OP. The ARs have quite a range. However, with AR starts if someone gets a power weapon like the BR, while you won’t have the advantage the BR does, you will need the AR to at least be useful. This keeps the game from making BRs too overpowered in a sense that causes everyone to need/want BR starts in the first place (read as: game breaking). With AR starts you still have a powerful weapon to take out an enemy. However, the AR is not so powerful that if you lost the advantage that they gained by grabbing a BR first they don’t feel punished versus rewarded. That’s really you’re fault for losing the BR to the enemy in the first place and it’s how the game “punishes you”.

There is an upside to it though. The great thing about not gaining a BR during AR starts is that there is more than one Mid Tier weapon on the map. There are multiple BRs / DMRs. You have to work you’re way to them. This creates competitiveness. The game is more competitive when you start at the Lower Tier of weapons and have to use that to fight for a Mid Tier weapon. It’s a progression. You compete for a better weapon in order to compete for some of the best weapons on the map. Saying that BR starts is more competitive is just not true. BR starts are definitely competitive in the sense of who can aim / shoot better since you are equals, but it is not more competitive in the sense of the overall game play.

The problem with AR starts is that it doesn’t provide an “equal feel.”

Overall:
BR starts means you skip the crawl, start out walking, and then run. (Skip Low / Start Mid / High Tiers) = Higher “equal” competitiveness.
AR starts means you starts crawling, walk, and then run. (Lower / Mid / High Tiers) = Higher “overall” competitiveness.

I tried to write the above without too much bias. I really do prefer AR starts because I had more fun with my team mates covering them and working to get weapons. I believe the AR is at a point where it is providing enough edge to best the BR at points, but that if you are good with the BR you can skillfully hold an AR back. This game is a lot more team oriented from what I’ve seen in the beta. The BR starts aren’t as fun in the team sense that I feel the game play has been built around. They are definitely fun in the sense of who is more skilled with that specific weapon, but in the end I feel as if it becomes the only weapon anyone actually uses aside from a Higher Tier weapon. This removes almost any reason to have the Lower Tier weapons in the game.

That’s why I like AR starts too, you want to pick up other weapons, gain an advantage at certain ranges. It’s overall more active of a game when you don’t start with an anti everything weapon.

AR and pistol starts for small maps
BR starts for mid sized maps
DMR starts for large maps

It just makes sense

> 2684064956505966;3:
> AR and pistol starts for small maps
> BR starts for mid sized maps
> DMR starts for large maps
>
> It just makes sense

True it makes sense but people are gonna want BR starts regardless of map to “showcase their skill”.

> 2533274808578327;4:
> > 2684064956505966;3:
> > AR and pistol starts for small maps
> > BR starts for mid sized maps
> > DMR starts for large maps
> >
> > It just makes sense
>
>
> True it makes sense but people are gonna want BR starts regardless of map to “showcase their skill”.

then tough -Yoink- there are BRs on the small and large maps, find it and showcase away, halo needs a consistent system for weapon starts and 343 needs to implement it and tell all the whiners to suck it up

> 2684064956505966;5:
> > 2533274808578327;4:
> > > 2684064956505966;3:
> > > AR and pistol starts for small maps
> > > BR starts for mid sized maps
> > > DMR starts for large maps
> > >
> > > It just makes sense
> >
> >
> >
> > True it makes sense but people are gonna want BR starts regardless of map to “showcase their skill”.
>
>
> then tough -Yoink- there are BRs on the small and large maps, find it and showcase away, halo needs a consistent system for weapon starts and 343 needs to implement it and tell all the whiners to suck it up

Haha, I’m perfectly fine with it, tell that to the BR religion.

> 2533274808578327;6:
> > 2684064956505966;5:
> > > 2533274808578327;4:
> > > > 2684064956505966;3:
> > > > AR and pistol starts for small maps
> > > > BR starts for mid sized maps
> > > > DMR starts for large maps
> > > >
> > > > It just makes sense
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > True it makes sense but people are gonna want BR starts regardless of map to “showcase their skill”.
> >
> >
> >
> > then tough -Yoink- there are BRs on the small and large maps, find it and showcase away, halo needs a consistent system for weapon starts and 343 needs to implement it and tell all the whiners to suck it up
>
>
> Haha, I’m perfectly fine with it, tell that to the BR religion.

They’re a lost cause and honestly 343 needs to ignore them if they want halo to be the best game it can be, BR Starts have their place, but its not on every map for every gametype

> 2684064956505966;3:
> AR and pistol starts for small maps
> BR starts for mid sized maps
> DMR starts for large maps
>
> It just makes sense

That’s an excellent idea. This would make sense, and it would cater to more peoples’ wishes than just having AR or BR starts.

> 2533274883561809;8:
> > 2684064956505966;3:
> > AR and pistol starts for small maps
> > BR starts for mid sized maps
> > DMR starts for large maps
> >
> > It just makes sense
>
>
> That’s an excellent idea. This would make sense, and it would cater to more peoples’ wishes than just having AR or BR starts.

thanks! most of the threads I’ve posted this in seem to get a decent response so maybe it will gain some traction

The problem is that AR-starts cause teams to gobble up all of the Rifles, then set up and spawn kill players who can’t fight back with AR’s. The AR can’t fight back when it’s getting descoped instantly every time.

It’s not that big a deal though, when the game comes out there will be both options.

> 2537295861501689;10:
> The problem is that AR-starts cause teams to gobble up all of the Rifles, then set up and spawn kill players who can’t fight back with AR’s. The AR can’t fight back when it’s getting descoped instantly every time.
>
> It’s not that big a deal though, when the game comes out there will be both options.

Then they just need to add a few more spawns so it’s impossible to hold and control every single ranged weapon.

> 2672001743214585;11:
> > 2537295861501689;10:
> > The problem is that AR-starts cause teams to gobble up all of the Rifles, then set up and spawn kill players who can’t fight back with AR’s. The AR can’t fight back when it’s getting descoped instantly every time.
> >
> > It’s not that big a deal though, when the game comes out there will be both options.
>
>
> Then they just need to add a few more spawns so it’s impossible to hold and control every single ranged weapon.

That and add possibly some more weapons around the map too.

> 2684064956505966;9:
> > 2533274883561809;8:
> > > 2684064956505966;3:
> > > AR and pistol starts for small maps
> > > BR starts for mid sized maps
> > > DMR starts for large maps
> > >
> > > It just makes sense
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > That’s an excellent idea. This would make sense, and it would cater to more peoples’ wishes than just having AR or BR starts.
>
>
>
> thanks! most of the threads I’ve posted this in seem to get a decent response so maybe it will gain some traction

This is a good idea. There’d then be fights over what’s small vs mid sized, but at least there’d be some mix to weapon starts.

> 2533274808578327;12:
> > 2672001743214585;11:
> > > 2537295861501689;10:
> > > The problem is that AR-starts cause teams to gobble up all of the Rifles, then set up and spawn kill players who can’t fight back with AR’s. The AR can’t fight back when it’s getting descoped instantly every time.
> > >
> > > It’s not that big a deal though, when the game comes out there will be both options.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Then they just need to add a few more spawns so it’s impossible to hold and control every single ranged weapon.
>
>
>
> That and add possibly some more weapons around the map too.

Yeah I think this might be the best fix. I like the above quote, but really more weapons on the map and split control points of weapons. Split the BRs 3 to 4 ways so that in a 4 v 4 situation 2 people can’t hold one while the other 2 hold the only other one. Just don’t have so many BRs that everyone has one at any given time or really you’re just back at BR starts and making other weapons useless.

I’m a BR guy myself and I’m more than happy to finally have my favorite weapon from the get go. However, I do feel that some moderation might be required in terms of weapon placement and start combo.per map.(I’m a advocate for BR/AR)

Another suggestion / Thought to the BR vs AR starts:

Let’s say it’s a 4 v 4 situation.

Team Blue wipes the floor with Team Red’s bodies.

Team Blue now has control of the ranged weapons on the map. Let’s be realistic: Team Blue has two people with BRs, one a DMR and one an SMG / pistol.

Team Red spawns. The game realizes that Team Red needs a little pick me up to make it a bit more fair and takes into account that Team Blue is Holding 3 Ranged weapons.

This causes the game to calculate the amount of ranged weapons on Team Blue minus 1. So in this case 3 - 1 = 2.

The game then selects the next two players to spawn on Team Red and give them BR spawn once.

This effect can only occur once every so often.

Just an idea.

EDIT: It could even be kicked in only when Team Red is down by say 10 points.