The new meta and unit relevancy

Games Halo Wars Series
1

Please be aware that EVERYTHING in this thread relates to the first 24 hours. This all could well be rubbish after a few days/weeks of play.

In the first 24 hours I’ve noticed a very violent meta switch, this is really surprising given that the patch seem quite small! I’m now noticing a very heavy emphasis on reaching Tech 3 and spam Tanks. What are the methods people are using to achieve this so quick?

Core units
Core units do not require power allowing a player to spam a bit of core units like infantry or flying while saving for T3. (Used core units are infantry and air, core vehicles are still not effective enough).

Bait
There’s a lot of baiting involved in this strategies, take this for example:
T1 - Chopper Opener: Harass infantry collecting resources.The enemy will try and counter with Hunters/Cyclops (using lots of Power).
T2 - Switch to Banshees: The Banshees can kill Hunters or Harass minibases. The enemy will try and counter with Reavers/Wolverines (using lots of Power again)
T3 - Tanks: The Tanks will destroy all the reavers/wolverines/infantry: The enemy now lost the game because he’s behind on power and can’t reach T3.

Power Bank
This strategy revolves around saving all the power for teching up really fast without giving up map dominance or harassment to the enemy.

Is this a problem?
I’m still undecided on whether this is a problem or not, at least I can see the UNSC and Banished factions are closer to each other now, so that’s always a good thing. The game is still very fun and engaging, and while these strategies make use of different unit types on each phase it doesn’t quite support too much unit variety in army composition.

Unit Variety
Most games I’ve had are defined on whoever throws more tanks at the enemy. And lack of unit variety I think it is in fact a problem (not as big as the teleporting locust problem or Jackrabbit map dominance problem).
It seems you must counter tanks with tanks, Hunters and Cyclops aren’t effective enough against scorch and canister. And air can be easily countered mixing a few wolves/reavers in.

How contradictory of you! You just said unit variety is no more!
There’s a third kind of unit variety and that’s in counter play between players. When the game revolves around a specific unit type the game loses appeal, sort of like Marine spam fights pre-season I and Jackrabbit fights in season I. When both players are using tanks and tanks and more tanks is when it can be a problem.

Unit upgrade race and relevancy
How can then we re-introduce units like the Hunter/Cyclops and Hornet/Banshee in the late late game? These units lose relevancy at T3. I think the easiest way to achieve this is by creating new T3 upgrades for these units, firing off an upgrade race between players (making power a relevant currency throughout the whole game).

A great example of this is Starcraft, Siege Tanks destroy zerglings in one shot, but the zergling armor upgrade allows them to survive with 1 hp, so the Terran player can research an attack upgrade to counter that and so on. So the game is not just about who has more units or better tech but also about who has the better upgraded units.

Having new upgrades for counter units would make them have relevancy throughout the match all the way into T3. Increasing unit variety in composition, unit variety through each phase and unit variety between players, the appeal of the game would skyrocket!

Here’s some Ideas on T3 upgrades

Hunter Improved Shields: Allows them to deflect heavy explosive damage, similar to how the Shroud works but on a longer cooldown. If this is too strong then have the upgrade provide a passive damage reduction against heavy explosive damage.

Banshees Blast: When a Banshee is destroyed it will instead charge at an enemy unit (can’t target buildings) and deal a bit of damage (This is not AoE).

Cyclops Piercing Rounds: Cyclops piercing rounds will light on fire the insides of heavy armored vehicles dealing damage over time.

Hornets Chaff Pods: Chaff pods deviate incoming homing fire. This would allow the hornet to survive a bit against tank/anti-air mix.

Please take note that these upgrades all require power and they also require that you research the first upgrade, this is NOT supposed to make these units overpowered, these upgrades are supposed to mantain the unit relevancy throughout the game all the way up to T3.
This would also fire off an upgrade race in which players have to try and stay on top of the enemy in terms of upgrades to gain small advantages that turn the tide of a game.

Please let me know what you guys think.

2

Totally agree with everything. Upgrades for units and making core units a bit better would make Tech 3 more varied, as opposed to just tanks. I still think they should bring back the Locust special ability from Halo Wars 1, trading max damage for shields. It would make them a bit easier to counter

3

I like that core units are involved more. It’s not so much, spam marines, grunts, Locusts, etc and you win. There is more variety now. I think core vehicles need a buff still (Maurders especially are not worth the cost in my opinion), but I’m liking this meta.

Unit variety is key and I like that aspect is more prevalent now compared to how it was in the beginning. That is what I’ve been noticing. Bring out marines and grunts with healing units and once t2 comes in, then go from there. I see a lot of mixed infantry from both factions now.

In regards to upgraded units at T3, as much as that would be cool to have, I believe the reason we have global unit upgrades is to compensate for that fact tbqh.

4

I played a few games with Isabel earlier today, and her tanks are extremely strong. Canister shell is still a bit buggy, but when it does go off… wow.

I went 6 minute tanks in a 3v3 and a single canister shell completely wiped half a guys locusts army.

5

the meta 10x better. now that you dont gotta worry about 10 locusts on your doir step at 6 minutes. i mean lol the meta was so bad

this 2nd nerf to locusts was absolurely perfect, it knocked off the freakib spam ans moved the mets to more of a fight instead of a kite fight.

6

> 2533274904506600;5:
> the meta 10x better. now that you dont gotta worry about 10 locusts on your doir step at 6 minutes. i mean lol the meta was so bad
>
> this 2nd nerf to locusts was absolurely perfect, it knocked off the freakib spam ans moved the mets to more of a fight instead of a kite fight.

This thread is not about locusts. Or which meta was/is better. This thread is about T3 unit variety.

7

Only thing Banished has to do to win is use the Wraith/Reaver/Shroud/Engineer/ combo. It’s just ridiculous. You can even mix in Banshees or Rangers to make it even more Hellacious.

8

> 2535471149170617;7:
> Only thing Banished has to do to win is use the Wraith/Reaver/Shroud/Engineer/ combo. It’s just ridiculous. You can even mix in Banshees or Rangers to make it even more Hellacious.

That would be a solid army composition.

It’s still too early to say whether UNSC can come up with a similar combo or not, I mean that’s what I’m hoping, but the first 24 hours have been tank spam (so far as games reach T3).

9

> 2533274821521504;1:
> **Please be aware that EVERYTHING in this thread relates to the first 24 hours. This all could well be rubbish after a few days/weeks of play.**In the first 24 hours I’ve noticed a very violent meta switch, this is really surprising given that the patch seem quite small! I’m now noticing a very heavy emphasis on reaching Tech 3 and spam Tanks. What are the methods people are using to achieve this so quick?
>
> Core unitsCore units do not require power allowing a player to spam a bit of core units like infantry or flying while saving for T3. (Used core units are infantry and air, core vehicles are still not effective enough).
>
> BaitThere’s a lot of baiting involved in this strategies, take this for example:
> T1 - Chopper Opener: Harass infantry collecting resources.The enemy will try and counter with Hunters/Cyclops (using lots of Power).
> T2 - Switch to Banshees: The Banshees can kill Hunters or Harass minibases. The enemy will try and counter with Reavers/Wolverines (using lots of Power again)
> T3 - Tanks: The Tanks will destroy all the reavers/wolverines/infantry: The enemy now lost the game because he’s behind on power and can’t reach T3.
>
> Power BankThis strategy revolves around saving all the power for teching up really fast without giving up map dominance or harassment to the enemy.
>
> **Is this a problem?**I’m still undecided on whether this is a problem or not, at least I can see the UNSC and Banished factions are closer to each other now, so that’s always a good thing. The game is still very fun and engaging, and while these strategies make use of different unit types on each phase it doesn’t quite support too much unit variety in army composition.
>
> Unit VarietyMost games I’ve had are defined on whoever throws more tanks at the enemy. And lack of unit variety I think it is in fact a problem (not as big as the teleporting locust problem or Jackrabbit map dominance problem).
> It seems you must counter tanks with tanks, Hunters and Cyclops aren’t effective enough against scorch and canister. And air can be easily countered mixing a few wolves/reavers in.
>
> **How contradictory of you! You just said unit variety is no more!**There’s a third kind of unit variety and that’s in counter play between players. When the game revolves around a specific unit type the game loses appeal, sort of like Marine spam fights pre-season I and Jackrabbit fights in season I. When both players are using tanks and tanks and more tanks is when it can be a problem.
>
> Unit upgrade race and relevancyHow can then we re-introduce units like the Hunter/Cyclops and Hornet/Banshee in the late late game? These units lose relevancy at T3. I think the easiest way to achieve this is by creating new T3 upgrades for these units, firing off an upgrade race between players (making power a relevant currency throughout the whole game).
>
> A great example of this is Starcraft, Siege Tanks destroy zerglings in one shot, but the zergling armor upgrade allows them to survive with 1 hp, so the Terran player can research an attack upgrade to counter that and so on. So the game is not just about who has more units or better tech but also about who has the better upgraded units.
>
> Having new upgrades for counter units would make them have relevancy throughout the match all the way into T3. Increasing unit variety in composition, unit variety through each phase and unit variety between players, the appeal of the game would skyrocket!
>
> Here’s some Ideas on T3 upgrades****Hunter Improved Shields: Allows them to deflect heavy explosive damage, similar to how the Shroud works but on a longer cooldown. If this is too strong then have the upgrade provide a passive damage reduction against heavy explosive damage.
>
> Banshees Blast: When a Banshee is destroyed it will instead charge at an enemy unit (can’t target buildings) and deal a bit of damage (This is not AoE).
>
> Cyclops Piercing Rounds: Cyclops piercing rounds will light on fire the insides of heavy armored vehicles dealing damage over time.
>
> Hornets Chaff Pods: Chaff pods deviate incoming homing fire. This would allow the hornet to survive a bit against tank/anti-air mix.
>
> Please take note that these upgrades all require power and they also require that you research the first upgrade, this is NOT supposed to make these units overpowered, these upgrades are supposed to mantain the unit relevancy throughout the game all the way up to T3.
> This would also fire off an upgrade race in which players have to try and stay on top of the enemy in terms of upgrades to gain small advantages that turn the tide of a game.
>
> Please let me know what you guys think.

so ur saying they shoudl take notes from how hw1 did their units and gave most of them 2-3 upgrades which i agree with and have been saying for awhile lol

10

I actually haven’t had too much trouble with the tank spam as of yet, but that could all change. I would say that I think that tanks are in the best spot they have been since launch, as tanks from BOTH factions are useable now. And I also think it’s fine they kill anti-vehicle infantry (to a certain degree), as that’s something a super expensive tech 3 unit really should do. What I’m not fine with is the state of Air. It honestly needs a significant cost reduction or damage buff to remain relevant, or else the rock-paper-scissors balance is completely obsolete. Mass air really needs to be able to shut down tank spam, and do so effectively.

11

> 2533274924073601;10:
> I actually haven’t had too much trouble with the tank spam as of yet, but that could all change. I would say that I think that tanks are in the best spot they have been since launch, as tanks from BOTH factions are useable now. And I also think it’s fine they kill anti-vehicle infantry (to a certain degree), as that’s something a super expensive tech 3 unit really should do. What I’m not fine with is the state of Air. It honestly needs a significant cost reduction or damage buff to remain relevant, or else the rock-paper-scissors balance is completely obsolete. Mass air really needs to be able to shut down tank spam, and do so effectively.

If they buff air, they should really give the Wolverine some love. The Reaver has shields, shoots faster, and has a very good special ability. The Wolverine shoots too slow to effectively counter air.

12

I only experienced tank spam once…but that was only after I shut down his Locust attack.

Thay said I do think we need some T3 variety. Spesically air and anti-vehicle infantry like you said. My Hunters full pop Hunters got WIPED by the Wraiths, and all they needed to shut down my Banshees was 4 Reavers.

13

> 2533274924073601;10:
> I actually haven’t had too much trouble with the tank spam as of yet, but that could all change. I would say that I think that tanks are in the best spot they have been since launch, as tanks from BOTH factions are useable now. And I also think it’s fine they kill anti-vehicle infantry (to a certain degree), as that’s something a super expensive tech 3 unit really should do. What I’m not fine with is the state of Air. It honestly needs a significant cost reduction or damage buff to remain relevant, or else the rock-paper-scissors balance is completely obsolete. Mass air really needs to be able to shut down tank spam, and do so effectively.

They are in the best spot yes. I’m fine with tanks beating anti vehicle infantry too, since you already spent your resources teching up. But on the other hand if a player spends resources upgrading his infantry levels and hunter beam for example he should as well be rewarded for it. Hence why I’m calling for more upgrades to be introduced.

> 2533274894485687;11:
> > 2533274924073601;10:
> > …
>
> If they buff air, they should really give the Wolverine some love. The Reaver has shields, shoots faster, and has a very good special ability. The Wolverine shoots too slow to effectively counter air.

Way I see it is not by flat buffing units, if the Wolverine had upgrades it would be better.

Remember how in HW1 wolves started out with a single missile launcher and then you could upgrade it to dual launchers? Something like that.

14

> 2533274821521504;13:
> > 2533274924073601;10:
> > I actually haven’t had too much trouble with the tank spam as of yet, but that could all change. I would say that I think that tanks are in the best spot they have been since launch, as tanks from BOTH factions are useable now. And I also think it’s fine they kill anti-vehicle infantry (to a certain degree), as that’s something a super expensive tech 3 unit really should do. What I’m not fine with is the state of Air. It honestly needs a significant cost reduction or damage buff to remain relevant, or else the rock-paper-scissors balance is completely obsolete. Mass air really needs to be able to shut down tank spam, and do so effectively.
>
> They are in the best spot yes. I’m fine with tanks beating anti vehicle infantry too, since you already spent your resources teching up. But on the other hand if a player spends resources upgrading his infantry levels and hunter beam for example he should as well be rewarded for it. Hence why I’m calling for more upgrades to be introduced.
>
>
> > 2533274894485687;11:
> > > 2533274924073601;10:
> > > …
> >
> > If they buff air, they should really give the Wolverine some love. The Reaver has shields, shoots faster, and has a very good special ability. The Wolverine shoots too slow to effectively counter air.
>
> Way I see it is not by flat buffing units, if the Wolverine had upgrades it would be better.
>
> Remember how in HW1 wolves started out with a single missile launcher and then you could upgrade it to dual launchers? Something like that.

^^^^^

15

> 2533274894485687;14:
> > 2533274821521504;13:
> > > 2533274924073601;10:
> > > I actually haven’t had too much trouble with the tank spam as of yet, but that could all change. I would say that I think that tanks are in the best spot they have been since launch, as tanks from BOTH factions are useable now. And I also think it’s fine they kill anti-vehicle infantry (to a certain degree), as that’s something a super expensive tech 3 unit really should do. What I’m not fine with is the state of Air. It honestly needs a significant cost reduction or damage buff to remain relevant, or else the rock-paper-scissors balance is completely obsolete. Mass air really needs to be able to shut down tank spam, and do so effectively.
> >
> > They are in the best spot yes. I’m fine with tanks beating anti vehicle infantry too, since you already spent your resources teching up. But on the other hand if a player spends resources upgrading his infantry levels and hunter beam for example he should as well be rewarded for it. Hence why I’m calling for more upgrades to be introduced.
> >
> >
> > > 2533274894485687;11:
> > > > 2533274924073601;10:
> > > > …
> > >
> > > If they buff air, they should really give the Wolverine some love. The Reaver has shields, shoots faster, and has a very good special ability. The Wolverine shoots too slow to effectively counter air.
> >
> > Way I see it is not by flat buffing units, if the Wolverine had upgrades it would be better.
> >
> > Remember how in HW1 wolves started out with a single missile launcher and then you could upgrade it to dual launchers? Something like that.
>
> ^^^^^

I wish they had the salvo still

16

> 2533274924073601;10:
> I actually haven’t had too much trouble with the tank spam as of yet, but that could all change. I would say that I think that tanks are in the best spot they have been since launch, as tanks from BOTH factions are useable now. And I also think it’s fine they kill anti-vehicle infantry (to a certain degree), as that’s something a super expensive tech 3 unit really should do. What I’m not fine with is the state of Air. It honestly needs a significant cost reduction or damage buff to remain relevant, or else the rock-paper-scissors balance is completely obsolete. Mass air really needs to be able to shut down tank spam, and

> 2533274894485687;11:
> > 2533274924073601;10:
> > I actually haven’t had too much trouble with the tank spam as of yet, but that could all change. I would say that I think that tanks are in the best spot they have been since launch, as tanks from BOTH factions are useable now. And I also think it’s fine they kill anti-vehicle infantry (to a certain degree), as that’s something a super expensive tech 3 unit really should do. What I’m not fine with is the state of Air. It honestly needs a significant cost reduction or damage buff to remain relevant, or else the rock-paper-scissors balance is completely obsolete. Mass air really needs to be able to shut down tank spam, and do so effectively.
>
> If they buff air, they should really give the Wolverine some love. The Reaver has shields, shoots faster, and has a very good special ability. The Wolverine shoots too slow to effectively counter air.

I would prefer a damage buff to any cost reduction. Mass air not that long ago was a big problem because how fast people could pump them out. (still don’t understand how a hornet or banshee does not use power but a Flamethrower does)

Yes wolverines are absolute garbage the only unit more garbage Rn is the marauder and that’s because it costs a little to much.

17

> 2533274968042384;16:
> > 2533274924073601;10:
> > …
>
> I would prefer a damage buff to any cost reduction. Mass air not that long ago was a big problem because how fast people could pump them out. (still don’t understand how a hornet or banshee does not use power but a Flamethrower does)
>
> Yes wolverines are absolute garbage the only unit more garbage Rn is the marauder and that’s because it costs a little to much.

Because hornets and Banshees are core units and can’t be used to rush. Flamers need to have a steep power cost to ensure an all in rush will put you behind if you fail.

Of course that can always be mitigated with power nodes. But if they costed nothing but supplies it’ll be so easy to go all in with no risk whatsoever.

18

> 2533274821521504;17:
> > 2533274968042384;16:
> > > 2533274924073601;10:
> > > …
> >
> > I would prefer a damage buff to any cost reduction. Mass air not that long ago was a big problem because how fast people could pump them out. (still don’t understand how a hornet or banshee does not use power but a Flamethrower does)
> >
> > Yes wolverines are absolute garbage the only unit more garbage Rn is the marauder and that’s because it costs a little to much.
>
> Because hornets and Banshees are core units and can’t be used to rush. Flamers need to have a steep power cost to ensure an all in rush will put you behind if you fail.
>
> Of course that can always be mitigated with power nodes. But if they costed nothing but supplies it’ll be so easy to go all in with no risk whatsoever.

I just think it’s odd that they don’t cost power Imo it doesn’t feel right to call it power since it has nothing to do with powering advanced machinery.

the me the hornet and even the warthog are not core units there advanced vehicles. Core units to me are infantry and its not really a crazy notion, many rts games use food for infantry and then add in oil for more advanced units. I guess it really depends on the developer how they choose to do these things. Ensemble probably would have gone the other way based on there other games.

To me i think they should cost at least a simple 10 power for lore reasons. That wouldn’t really hurt anything and would make “power” a more believable currency

19

> 2533274968042384;18:
> > 2533274821521504;17:
> > > 2533274968042384;16:
> > > > 2533274924073601;10:
> > > > …
>
> I just think it’s odd that they don’t cost power Imo it doesn’t feel right to call it power since it has nothing to do with powering advanced machinery.
>
> the me the hornet and even the warthog are not core units there advanced vehicles. Core units to me are infantry and its not really a crazy notion, many rts games use food for infantry and then add in oil for more advanced units. I guess it really depends on the developer how they choose to do these things. Ensemble probably would have gone the other way based on there other games.
>
> To me i think they should cost at least a simple 10 power for lore reasons. That wouldn’t really hurt anything and would make “power” a more believable currency

I’d much rather have a balanced multiplayer than one that makes sense for lore reasons.

Lore is the reason we can’t play as Elites in Halo 4 or 5

20

> 2533274927740213;19:
> > 2533274968042384;18:
> > > 2533274821521504;17:
> > > > 2533274968042384;16:
> > > > > 2533274924073601;10:
> > > > > …
> >
> > I just think it’s odd that they don’t cost power Imo it doesn’t feel right to call it power since it has nothing to do with powering advanced machinery.
> >
> > the me the hornet and even the warthog are not core units there advanced vehicles. Core units to me are infantry and its not really a crazy notion, many rts games use food for infantry and then add in oil for more advanced units. I guess it really depends on the developer how they choose to do these things. Ensemble probably would have gone the other way based on there other games.
> >
> > To me i think they should cost at least a simple 10 power for lore reasons. That wouldn’t really hurt anything and would make “power” a more believable currency
>
> I’d much rather have a balanced multiplayer than one that makes sense for lore reasons.
>
> Lore is the reason we can’t play as Elites in Halo 4 or 5

I agree, although your example is incorrect. Balance is the reason we can’t play elites in H4 and H5. Elites were a horrible idea for multiplayer.

> 2533274968042384;18:
> > 2533274821521504;17:
> > > 2533274968042384;16:
> > > > 2533274924073601;10:
> > > > …
> > >
> > > …
>
> I just think it’s odd that they don’t cost power Imo it doesn’t feel right to call it power since it has nothing to do with powering advanced machinery.
>
> the me the hornet and even the warthog are not core units there advanced vehicles. Core units to me are infantry and its not really a crazy notion, many rts games use food for infantry and then add in oil for more advanced units. I guess it really depends on the developer how they choose to do these things. Ensemble probably would have gone the other way based on there other games.
>
> To me i think they should cost at least a simple 10 power for lore reasons. That wouldn’t really hurt anything and would make “power” a more believable currency

Ensemble would’ve kept a single resource type, that’s the main reason I think HW2 is a much superior RTS.

Core Unit is a concept for a unit type that has no clear advantage or disadvantage outside the rock paper scissor mechanic, you’re supposed to use power for counter units.

Although I don’t entirely disagree with you, I think I would be much in favor of a small increase in power and a small reduction in supply for an unit like the marauder. For example have it from 400/0 to 350/25.