The Needler has no place in Arena

The Needler is a fan-favorite weapon, and having been here since the beginning, is seen as a staple of the franchise on par with the Assault Rifle or the Warthog. But consistently throughout the Halo series, 343 and Bungie have failed to make this gun work within the sandbox (which I’ll spend the second and third paragraph talking about if you want to skip that and get straight to my proposal for how the gun should change). The primary issue being that the inherent characteristics of the weapon (inability for individual needles to kill (consistently), slow and sluggish projectile movement mid-air, full-auto fire mode combined with a relatively small magazine) make for something that’s very, very difficult to balance properly. What are the options here? You could give the Needler greater proficiency in Close Quarters through making the Needles turn and track more accurately, but that would create a fire-and-forget weapon entirely lacking required skill to use that would overpower every other weapon in its class. Alternatively, you could give it more range and increase the speed at which the Needles move through the air, but unfortunately that niche exactly has been filled by the Suppressor. Or, you could give it a larger magazine and a wider spread or rate of fire, decreasing the damage to compensate and effectively making it a Covenant equivalent to the SAW, but as proven with Halo 2’s Dual Wielding the Needler doesn’t improve its effectiveness at all, and only serves to create a weapon that appears overwhelming and hectic but can easily be four-shotted by anyone even remotely paying attention.

This is an issue that both 343 and Bungie were and are aware of, regardless of if they’ve publicly stated it or not. As far as evidence towards this claim, the proof is in the changes they’ve tried to make to the weapon. From CE to Halo 2, all weapons now dual wieldable (Pistol, Plasma Rifle, SMG (if you see it as the successor to the AR in the H2 sandbox)) were all nerfed from their CE counterparts to take Dual Wielding into account… except for the Needler. The Needler, being the only useless weapon in CE (ignoring the PC-exclusive Flamethrower), was in-fact buffed by giving it more aim assist and heightened tracking accuracy. Still, even under these circumstances, the Needler remained a weak weapon to use. In Halo 3, the Needler again represents the outlier amongst Dual Wieldable weapons, being the only gun that had this ability revoked. Instead, Bungie tried to buff its base stats to fix the weapon, through increasing damage, rate of fire, accuracy, and projectile speed. Despite definite improvements being made, the Needler remained an unused weapon within the sandbox. In Reach Bungie continued this approach and again attempted to tweak its base stats (granted only slightly, as they were nearing the Needler’s fine line and threshold of ‘absolutely underpowered’ to ‘incredibly overwhelming’) via an increase magazine size and increased damage dealt. Again, no success was made towards making the Needler a fitting weapon in the sandbox.

343, having inherited this problem from Bungie, tried their best to make the weapon work in their sandbox. 343 buffed the Needlers damage and returned its ability to super-combine through Shields, a trait that was lost in Reach due to the game’s gameplay mechanics surrounding shielding. Within Ordinance drops, the Needler was made to stand next to the SAW as if the two weapons were comparable, which I speculate 343 might have been trying to accomplish within Halo 4’s balancing. However, as most who’ve played Halo 4 know, even with Needlers being one of the primary requisition drops the game had to offer, its increased usage was only superficial, and often would be turned down for Speed Boosts or Grenades, demonstrating its low status on the sandbox pecking order. In Halo 5, the gun plays more-or-less the same as it did in Halo 4, having been effectively pushed out of a possible niche by the Suppressor (not blaming the Suppressor, as its actually a pretty smart gun design), assumedly being left on the wayside by 343 in an attempt to bottleneck their focus during development towards issues more pressing.

To put its faults simply, it is the most niche gun in the game. Since Halo 3, the Needler has been a gun that works decently (through its ability to occasionally out gun the BR, granted this is done with the Needler user losing all of their shields) in Medium Range ONLY. In Medium - Long Range engagements, and just Long Range engagements entirely, the Needler is useless the second the target is out of reticle range (which is far enough away for any precision weapon in the game to comfortably engage), and in Close Quarters its projectile turning radius of the Needler makes the weapon more hectic and stress inducing for its user than it does its target, again being out gunned by all other Full Auto weapons in the game. The Needler is exclusively useful at one range, and is unusable at all others. A DMR can somewhat be used in Close Quarters. A Storm Rifle can somewhat be used at Medium Range. An Assault Rifle can somewhat be used at Medium - Long Range. This cannot be said for the Needler in any capacity.

What’s wrong with it in H5? It’s a pretty damn powerful tier 2 weapon in this game.

The solution I propose actually comes from Halo Wars, and is to prioritize the ability against vehicles, something which it has quite literally been the worst gun for this purpose in every single Halo first person shooter. The Halo 5 sandbox lacks a weapon class utilized in vehicle intensive maps that has been filled since Halo 2 by weapons like the Brute Shot and the Concussion Rifle: a modest power weapon that cannot destroy a vehicle in a single magazine, but causes recognizable and respectable damage and creates movement hazards for the vehicle’s operator. An obvious argument would be that the Plasma Caster fills the niche of the Brute Shot and the Concussion Rifle, but the Plasma Caster’s inability to detonate on impact while firing semi-automatically makes it unable to do so. 343 looked at the Halo 2 Brute Shot, the Concussion Rifle, and the Plasma Launcher and tried to do their best by simplifying the sandbox and making it all one gun, but failed on the execution (personally I’d say the solution to that problem would be to make the standard firing mode like the Concussion Rifle and the charged firing mode similar to how it is, leaving the Halo 2 Brute Shot as its own separate weapon, but that argument is off-topic and for another time). This classification of weapon, when placed symmetrically on maps and within plausibly safe distance from each team’s initial spawn, acted as a means to give a team a balanced defense towards enemies who could employ a spawn trap using vehicles (think Halo 3 BTB CTF on Standoff) and allow players to counter an employed tactic like this through means that were earned and not just given by the game to prevent hurt feelings.

If the Needler was buffed so that it could embed itself into vehicles, and super-combine to create a small explosion that would throw off (possibly flip a Warthog, definitely flip or spin out a Mongoose) enemy vehicles, the Needler would have a viable usage in the game. Further buffs I would suggest would be a slight increase to the magazine size and reticle range, but a massive buff to the distance and time that the Needler rounds will follow a target for, in tandem with a mechanic to allow each Needle to exponentially as it tracks its target. Given that the reticle range isn’t increased, this wouldn’t effect infantry engagements, as the enemy target would be too close to make the Needler rounds fly fast enough to be overpowered. Through these buffs, the Needler would become a weird Covenant equivalent to the Hydra Launcher, and would act radically different from the Hydra given its greater accuracy and magazine size in trade for a lower damage output.

tl;dr: The Needler is an iconic gun and I don’t hate it, but it only performs at one range and can’t in any other, which makes it less useful than every other gun. If the Needler was redesigned to be good at attacking vehicles over infantry, then the gun would be better balanced.

Comments and Suggestions are very much appreciated. Thank you for reading!

> 2535413436964227;2:
> What’s wrong with it in H5? It’s a pretty damn powerful tier 2 weapon in this game.

I wasn’t expecting anyone to respond this quickly, so I posted the first half and copy and pasted the second half to a second post. That half has the rest of my argument in it. Wish I didn’t have to double post to say this, but the character limit for posts is a bit too small for threads like this.

<mark>This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post comments that are discriminatory in nature.</mark>

*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

Quit -Yoinking!- aboit something so retarded. The needler works well for regret if you get raped by it its your fault

> 2535416132239562;5:
> Quit -Yoinking!- aboit something so retarded. The needler works well for regret if you get raped by it its your fault

lmao I barely get killed by the Needler, the whole post is about how bad it is compared to other guns its supposed to be competing against. Thanks for reading before posting, friend.

> 2533274812371483;1:
> The Needler is a fan-favorite weapon, and having been here since the beginning, is seen as a staple of the franchise on par with the Assault Rifle or the Warthog. But consistently throughout the Halo series, 343 and Bungie have failed to make this gun work within the sandbox (which I’ll spend the second and third paragraph talking about if you want to skip that and get straight to my proposal for how the gun should change). The primary issue being that the inherent characteristics of the weapon (inability for individual needles to kill (consistently), slow and sluggish projectile movement mid-air, full-auto fire mode combined with a relatively small magazine) make for something that’s very, very difficult to balance properly. What are the options here? You could give the Needler greater proficiency in Close Quarters through making the Needles turn and track more accurately, but that would create a fire-and-forget weapon entirely lacking required skill to use that would overpower every other weapon in its class. Alternatively, you could give it more range and increase the speed at which the Needles move through the air, but unfortunately that niche exactly has been filled by the Suppressor. Or, you could give it a larger magazine and a wider spread or rate of fire, decreasing the damage to compensate and effectively making it a Covenant equivalent to the SAW, but as proven with Halo 2’s Dual Wielding the Needler doesn’t improve its effectiveness at all, and only serves to create a weapon that appears overwhelming and hectic but can easily be four-shotted by anyone even remotely paying attention.
>
> This is an issue that both 343 and Bungie were and are aware of, regardless of if they’ve publicly stated it or not. As far as evidence towards this claim, the proof is in the changes they’ve tried to make to the weapon. From CE to Halo 2, all weapons now dual wieldable (Pistol, Plasma Rifle, SMG (if you see it as the successor to the AR in the H2 sandbox)) were all nerfed from their CE counterparts to take Dual Wielding into account… except for the Needler. The Needler, being the only useless weapon in CE (ignoring the PC-exclusive Flamethrower), was in-fact buffed by giving it more aim assist and heightened tracking accuracy. Still, even under these circumstances, the Needler remained a weak weapon to use. In Halo 3, the Needler again represents the outlier amongst Dual Wieldable weapons, being the only gun that had this ability revoked. Instead, Bungie tried to buff its base stats to fix the weapon, through increasing damage, rate of fire, accuracy, and projectile speed. Despite definite improvements being made, the Needler remained an unused weapon within the sandbox. In Reach Bungie continued this approach and again attempted to tweak its base stats (granted only slightly, as they were nearing the Needler’s fine line and threshold of ‘absolutely underpowered’ to ‘incredibly overwhelming’) via an increase magazine size and increased damage dealt. Again, no success was made towards making the Needler a fitting weapon in the sandbox.
>
> 343, having inherited this problem from Bungie, tried their best to make the weapon work in their sandbox. 343 buffed the Needlers damage and returned its ability to super-combine through Shields, a trait that was lost in Reach due to the game’s gameplay mechanics surrounding shielding. Within Ordinance drops, the Needler was made to stand next to the SAW as if the two weapons were comparable, which I speculate 343 might have been trying to accomplish within Halo 4’s balancing. However, as most who’ve played Halo 4 know, even with Needlers being one of the primary requisition drops the game had to offer, its increased usage was only superficial, and often would be turned down for Speed Boosts or Grenades, demonstrating its low status on the sandbox pecking order. In Halo 5, the gun plays more-or-less the same as it did in Halo 4, having been effectively pushed out of a possible niche by the Suppressor (not blaming the Suppressor, as its actually a pretty smart gun design), assumedly being left on the wayside by 343 in an attempt to bottleneck their focus during development towards issues more pressing.
>
> To put its faults simply, it is the most niche gun in the game. Since Halo 3, the Needler has been a gun that works decently (through its ability to occasionally out gun the BR, granted this is done with the Needler user losing all of their shields) in Medium Range ONLY. In Medium - Long Range engagements, and just Long Range engagements entirely, the Needler is useless the second the target is out of reticle range (which is far enough away for any precision weapon in the game to comfortably engage), and in Close Quarters its projectile turning radius of the Needler makes the weapon more hectic and stress inducing for its user than it does its target, again being out gunned by all other Full Auto weapons in the game. The Needler is exclusively useful at one range, and is unusable at all others. A DMR can somewhat be used in Close Quarters. A Storm Rifle can somewhat be used at Medium Range. An Assault Rifle can somewhat be used at Medium - Long Range. This cannot be said for the Needler in any capacity.

So, you’re saying that the Needler in Halo 5 is only useful at medium range, therefore, it doesn’t belong in Arena…

I think the Needler is a quite deadly weapon and very useful in certain situations and encounters. If the Needler was more effective at other ranges, then I think this would make this weapon quite unbalanced and a little OP.

> 2533274812371483;4:
> > 2535413436964227;2:
> > What’s wrong with it in H5? It’s a pretty damn powerful tier 2 weapon in this game.
>
>
> I wasn’t expecting anyone to respond this quickly, so I posted the first half and copy and pasted the second half to a second post. That half has the rest of my argument in it. Wish I didn’t have to double post to say this, but the character limit for posts is a bit too small for threads like this.

I don’t see anything about H5 in your second post.

I just don’t see the problem. It’s a powerful weapon in this game. Much more powerful than the suppressor.

> 2533274859103405;7:
> > 2533274812371483;1:
> >
>
>
> So, you’re saying that the Needler in Halo 5 is only usual at medium range, therefore, it doesn’t belong in Arena…
>
> I think the Needler is a quite deadly weapon and very useful in certain situations and encounters. If the Needler was more effective at other ranges, then I think this would make this weapon quite unbalanced and a little OP.

I’m saying the characteristics inherent to the Needler will always make it a worse gun to use in Arena environments, except for very specific engagements at a very specific range. My suggestion is to avoid the issue of trying to make it work in Arena when instead it could be repurposed to be primarily used in larger scale maps.

Haters gonna hate… the needler is awesome in H5. I am glad it kicks yoink again. It’s an iconic Halo weapon IMO.

Your complaint is invalid as well seeing how ALL weapons have there ranges and effective ranges and what not and I feel the Needler is a great short to mid range weapon.

> 2533274816788253;10:
> Haters gonna hate… the needler is awesome in H5. I am glad it kicks yoink again. It’s an iconic Halo weapon IMO.

I agree entirely that its iconic in the franchise (its one of the first things I wrote in the post), I just feel like it’d be a less underwhelming weapon if it was repurposed to be a vehicle-intensive weapon over a close quarters weapon.

This just in: poster confirms that a niche weapon does indeed function in its intended niche.

But seriously, I don’t see why that means it shouldn’t be in Arena.

I do like the vehicle supercombine idea though. Maybe the Talon of the Lost can replace the Needler in BTB.

> 2533274816788253;11:
> Your complaint is invalid as well seeing how ALL weapons have there ranges and effective ranges and what not and I feel the Needler is a great short to mid range weapon.

While all weapons obviously need to have a limited range of effectiveness, I’d say the Needler has a considerably smaller effective range than automatic weapons like the Assault Rifle or Suppressor.

It all depends on how you employ the weapon .

> 2533274831950975;13:
> This just in: poster confirms that a niche weapon does indeed function in its intended niche.
>
> But seriously, I don’t see why that means it shouldn’t be in Arena.
>
> I do like the vehicle supercombine idea though. Maybe the Talon of the Lost can replace the Needler in BTB.

It serves its intended niche, but my point is that the Needler is only capable of performing in that niche, whereas all other weapons in the game are capable of performing outside their intended areas. I would say that this makes the Needler an underwhelming weapon in the sandbox that could be repurposed for something better.

I love the Needler. Especially when I’m guarding the flag on the BTB map Pegasus (I think it’s Pegasus). Great weapon for when you have the drop on somebody. Oh an by the way, the OP was waaaaaay TLDR.

I think the needler works just fine as is. You can get some easy kills with it. It isn’t suppose to be exactly the same as other weapons. You have to know when to use it over other weapons.

The Hailstorm should be in arena, that thing is awesome!

That’s like saying the shotgun doesn’t shoot far enough. It does what its supposed to in the range its supposed to. Its probably (In my opinion) the most lethal weapon in the short-mid range category after shotguns for obvious reasons. Its awesome if you know how to conserve the ammo and make each one count. Sure you can thruster the way out of some of them, but not all of them. Its a guarantee killer weapon