The Marginal Advantage

The lack of marginal advantage is what I would consider the biggest problem with Halo 4’s loadouts, and probably loadouts in general.

Now when I say marginal advantage and apply it to Halo, I’m generally referring to two different styles. The first one is Player Driven Advantage, which basically means an advantage the player creates themselves over another play. This can be movement based, grenade based, position based etc… The other form is the one that is currently subject to question, which is the Weapon Based advantage.

For an example, let’s say we’re playing ragnarok 4v4 with nothing but BR’s for starters. If I pick up a Light Rifle on map, I’ve got a better weapon than you do. In this regard, I’ve got an advantage, albeit slight. So that’s the sort of thing I’m talking about when I say Weapon Based Advantage* (or WBA).

*Note, this is only in reference to non-power weapons. Power weapons are a huge advantage, not marginal.

Now, in previous games the WBA was always available via on map weapons. Things like picking up a needler, or a plasma rifle, or a plasma pistol always offered a slight advantage over the opponent in some way. Because of the weapons being on map, it also went hand in hand with the MBA (movement based advantage). If you knew your enemy had one weapon, you would move around the map to a weapon that was better suited than your current one to counter theirs. If you died and lost that weapon, you had to try something else or wait for it to respawn.

It was their job to make sure you either didn’t get the weapons or position that was better against their own, or simply make sure you didn’t kill them. I think it worked quite well over all, and it encouraged a lot of player movement, even to spots on the map that a player wouldn’t normally move to.

Now with Halo 4 , that’s basically gone. Many of the weapons that one could place on map (Light Rifle, DMR, Boltshot, Plasma Pistol) are all available in loadout options, which not only takes weapons away from the map but allows you start with the most effective weapon set-up for any given map.

Let’s move back to the ragnarok idea. I moved around the map to find a light rifle in order to gain an advantage. With the current Halo 4 system, I can spawn with that weapon and never have to move at all. If I can spawn with the best available weapon for any given map, what need is there to pick up and use or understand any other weapons?

Along with this, tier 2 power weapons have also largely gone missing. The needler for example used to be a fairly common sight on maps, but now it’s only available via ordinance drops (be it personal on random map drops). Other tier 2 weapons like the Sticky det almost never even show up. The Railgun is the only one of the set that’s fairly common, and even that could be considered stronger than a Tier 2 weapon.

So all of a sudden, basically the only weapons that are coming into play are the best loadout weapons for any given map, or the powerweapons. Even with personal ordinance which is supposed to increase the frequency of weapons, all that most people will choose is the most powerful weapon they can. And who can blame them? Would you rather have a needler or the aim assist machine we call the beam rifle?

And I think overall, this loadout system doesn’t promote the same amount of map movement or weapon knowledge that the old one used to. It was important to understand how to use what weapon most effectively in which situation, but now I feel like it’s mostly “what range is the map” and “what is the most powerful position on the map” that’s taken into account when weapons are being used.

So while the weapon based advantage remains in some sense, I think it’s significantly less important and effective than it was in the past, and I’d liked to see it return similarly to it’s former glory. I don’t want to completely remove the loadout system, but I don’t think we should have as many options as we do to the point where weapons go un-used, and nothing is placed on maps.

I think for Halo 5 it’s important that we find a balancing point where there’s weapon variety in loadouts, but not at the cost of weapon variety on the map as well.

Here’s my offered solution for a reduced loadout system. There are a couple other good suggestions made by others in there as well that I’d encourage people to think about.

Anyway, anyone else agree? Disagree? Feel free to say why or why not.

EDIT: Also I apologise, I didn’t quite encompass all that I meant to in the above, so I’ll probably update the thread at some point.

I completely agree with you there.

I’ve been playing Halo Reach for the last few weeks, and the key difference it has from Halo 4 is the abundance of weapons placed on the map. Now, in Halo 4, not only are weapons never physically placed on the map (rather through ordnance), but the map control abilities that were heralded by the “marginal difference” were completely removed.

  • Personal Ordnance is completely random, unpredictable, and shatters the ability to strategize through equipment placed on the map.

  • In their current form, Personal Loadouts also contribute to the destruction of the marginal difference by offering the player the ability to spawn with tier-3 power weapons such as the Boltshot, Plasma Pistol, LightRifle, and the DMR.

  • Armor Abilities and Armor Mods add a level of imbalance to the game by not only offering game-altering abilities to the player (being able to fly and see through walls), but the fact that you have no way of knowing which AA/perk your opponent has adds to more unpredictability.

  • Vehicle combat is severely negated by people spawning with Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades, and through bullet-based weapons doing extra damage to them.

However, despite the evil that is endured by the current eventuality of Loadouts, there are ways to fix them. Apart from what you detail in your linked thread, my personal fate for Loadouts is the following:

Primary Weapons:
- Assault Rifle
- Storm Rifle
- Battle Rifle
- Covenant Carbine
Secondary Weapons:
- Magnum
- GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol
- SMG
- Plasma Rifle
Grenades:
- Locked at 2 Frags
Armor Abilities:
- Removed from the game and replaced with Equipment
Armor Mods:
- Removed from the game, and wiped from our memories.

> I completely agree with you there.
>
> I’ve been playing Halo Reach for the last few weeks, and the key difference it has from Halo 4 is the abundance of weapons placed on the map. Now, in Halo 4, not only are weapons never physically placed on the map (rather through ordnance), but the map control abilities that were heralded by the “marginal difference” were completely removed.
>
> - Personal Ordnance is completely random, unpredictable, and shatters the ability to strategize through equipment placed on the map.
>
> - In their current form, Personal Loadouts also contribute to the destruction of the marginal difference by offering the player the ability to spawn with tier-3 power weapons such as the Boltshot, Plasma Pistol, LightRifle, and the DMR.
>
> - Armor Abilities and Armor Mods add a level of imbalance to the game by not only offering game-altering abilities to the player (being able to fly and see through walls), but the fact that you have no way of knowing which AA/perk your opponent has adds to more unpredictability.
>
> - Vehicle combat is severely negated by people spawning with Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades, and through bullet-based weapons doing extra damage to them.
>
> However, despite the evil that is endured by the current eventuality of Loadouts, there are ways to fix them. Apart from what you detail in your linked thread, my personal fate for Loadouts is the following:
>
> Primary Weapons:
> - Assault Rifle
> - Storm Rifle
> - Battle Rifle
> - Covenant Carbine
> Secondary Weapons:
> - Magnum
> - GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol
> - SMG
> - Plasma Rifle
> Grenades:
> - Locked at 2 Frags
> Armor Abilities:
> - Removed from the game and replaced with Equipment
> Armor Mods:
> - Removed from the game, and wiped from our memories.

I still disagree with your loadout options.

The SMG (Halo 3 variant) and the AR is essentially the same weapon thus I don’t see the point of having them both occupy your loadouts primary choices and secondary ones. Whether we are talking about the Halo 1,2 or 3 Plasma Rifle they are all close combat shield draining “Power Weapons” and shouldn’t be in a loadout.

I am however okey with:

[/li]- Assault Rifle

  • Storm Rifle
  • Battle Rifle
  • Covenant Carbine[/list]
    Secondary Weapons:
    [/li]- Magnum
  • GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol (Haven’t read about Ghost of maine’s Needle Pistol).

EDIT: Accidental Premature Post

> > I completely agree with you there.
> >
> > I’ve been playing Halo Reach for the last few weeks, and the key difference it has from Halo 4 is the abundance of weapons placed on the map. Now, in Halo 4, not only are weapons never physically placed on the map (rather through ordnance), but the map control abilities that were heralded by the “marginal difference” were completely removed.
> >
> > - Personal Ordnance is completely random, unpredictable, and shatters the ability to strategize through equipment placed on the map.
> >
> > - In their current form, Personal Loadouts also contribute to the destruction of the marginal difference by offering the player the ability to spawn with tier-3 power weapons such as the Boltshot, Plasma Pistol, LightRifle, and the DMR.
> >
> > - Armor Abilities and Armor Mods add a level of imbalance to the game by not only offering game-altering abilities to the player (being able to fly and see through walls), but the fact that you have no way of knowing which AA/perk your opponent has adds to more unpredictability.
> >
> > - Vehicle combat is severely negated by people spawning with Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades, and through bullet-based weapons doing extra damage to them.
> >
> > However, despite the evil that is endured by the current eventuality of Loadouts, there are ways to fix them. Apart from what you detail in your linked thread, my personal fate for Loadouts is the following:
> >
> > Primary Weapons:
> > - Assault Rifle
> > - Storm Rifle
> > - Battle Rifle
> > - Covenant Carbine
> > Secondary Weapons:
> > - Magnum
> > - GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol
> > - SMG
> > - Plasma Rifle
> > Grenades:
> > - Locked at 2 Frags
> > Armor Abilities:
> > - Removed from the game and replaced with Equipment
> > Armor Mods:
> > - Removed from the game, and wiped from our memories.
>
> I still disagree with your loadout options.
>
> The SMG (Halo 3 variant) and the AR is essentially the same weapon thus I don’t see the point of having them both occupy your loadouts primary choices and secondary ones. Whether we are talking about the Halo 1,2 or 3 Plasma Rifle they are all close combat shield draining “Power Weapons” and shouldn’t be in a loadout.
>
> I am however okey with:
>
> [/li]1. Assault Rifle
> 1. Storm Rifle
> 1. Battle Rifle
> 1. Covenant Carbine[/list]
> Secondary Weapons:
> [/li]1. Magnum
> 1. GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol (Haven’t read about Ghost of maine’s Needle Pistol).
[/quote]
After thinking about it a little more, you are correct about the SMG/Plasma Rifle. The SMG’s essentially just a mini AR, and the PR’s extra extended shield damage could lead to annoyance with people using constant melee combos with it up close.
>
> As for the Needle Pistol:
>
> In the first discussions that Ghost and I had about it, we established that not only would it use supercombines rather than being headshot capable, but it’d also fire in bursts rather than single rounds. In addition to that, holding down the trigger on the Needle Pistol would allow it to fire automatically (similar to the CE Magnum and the Needle Rifle), and it would have a higher ROF than the Magnum but with less damage per shot.
>
> STATISTICS:
> - ROF: Twice as fast as the Magnum.
> - DAMAGE: 10 Bursts to break shields, 2 more to supercombine.
> - MAGAZINE SIZE: 16 Bursts.
> - MAX AMMO: 6 Mags (96 Bursts)
> - STARTING AMMO: 3 Mags (48 Bursts)
> - SCOPE: 2x Zoom

Won’t marginal advantage always be there so long as loadouts exist to begin with?

If I choose an AR, I’m already better at close range than a BR.

Now sure, it might not be anywhere near the degree of a rocket launcher beating a sniper rifle at medium range, but there is still a marginal advantage.

> I don’t want to completely remove the loadout system

Frankly, why not?

> Won’t marginal advantage always be there so long as loadouts exist to begin with?
>
> <mark>If I choose an AR, I’m already better at close range than a BR.</mark>
>
> Now sure, it might not be anywhere near the degree of a rocket launcher beating a sniper rifle at medium range, but there is still a marginal advantage.
>
>
>
> > I don’t want to completely remove the loadout system
>
> Frankly, why not?

But then aren’t you at a disadvantage at mid range to the BR. Its all about playing to the weapons strengths.

> Won’t marginal advantage always be there so long as loadouts exist to begin with?
>
> If I choose an AR, I’m already better at close range than a BR.
>
> Now sure, it might not be anywhere near the degree of a rocket launcher beating a sniper rifle at medium range, but there is still a marginal advantage.
>
>
>
> > I don’t want to completely remove the loadout system
>
> <mark>Frankly, why not?</mark>

Probably because it has the potential to make the game more supportive of personal preferences without shattering balance in the way that it currently does.

In Halo 2, it is arguable that the Energy Sword’s infinite ammo, insane lunge, and excessively fast swinging was horrible overpowered. However, instead of blatantly removing the weapon in Halo 3, the Energy Sword was not only given the ability to parry with other Swords, but it was much more balanced.

There are better ways to fix things than just plain out removing them. Every issue has a solution.

> Won’t marginal advantage always be there so long as loadouts exist to begin with?
>
> If I choose an AR, I’m already better at close range than a BR.
>
> Now sure, it might not be anywhere near the degree of a rocket launcher beating a sniper rifle at medium range, but there is still a marginal advantage.

I was more putting it towards the dynamic that it shared with movement and maps than the actual advantage itself. Certainly the Weapon Based Advantage is still there, but it doesn’t do much in order to promote map movement and a dynamic sense of gameplay.

Not to mention you’ve got all the weapons you need in order to succeed at your fingertips as opposed to finding the most effective available weapon you can at any given time.

If I spawn with a boltshot, there’s no need to push out and find one. Not to mention I can spawn with it regardless of map, and can use it regardless of how many times I die. Same cannot be said for on-map weapons.

Indeed, there’s still a marginal advantage, but not the dynamics created by the previous versions.

> > I don’t want to completely remove the loadout system
>
> Frankly, why not?

Weapon variety for those who want it. I could frankly live without, but there’s not much harm to be had by offering people a couple of weapons (think AR/BR Storm/Carbine and ODST SMG) to simply change things up a little. No point in forcing someone to use a weapon they don’t want to use (Halo 3 Death Charge AR starts anyone?) when it’s pretty simple to give them a balanced choice.

That’s just a thought though. I could go either way, to be honest.

> I completely agree with you there.
>
> I’ve been playing Halo Reach for the last few weeks, and the key difference it has from Halo 4 is the abundance of weapons placed on the map. Now, in Halo 4, not only are weapons never physically placed on the map (rather through ordnance), but the map control abilities that were heralded by the “marginal difference” were completely removed.
>
> - Personal Ordnance is completely random, unpredictable, and shatters the ability to strategize through equipment placed on the map.
>
> - In their current form, Personal Loadouts also contribute to the destruction of the marginal difference by offering the player the ability to spawn with tier-3 power weapons such as the Boltshot, Plasma Pistol, LightRifle, and the DMR.
>
> - Armor Abilities and Armor Mods add a level of imbalance to the game by not only offering game-altering abilities to the player (being able to fly and see through walls), but the fact that you have no way of knowing which AA/perk your opponent has adds to more unpredictability.
>
> - Vehicle combat is severely negated by people spawning with Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades, and through bullet-based weapons doing extra damage to them.
>
> However, despite the evil that is endured by the current eventuality of Loadouts, there are ways to fix them. Apart from what you detail in your linked thread, my personal fate for Loadouts is the following:
>
> Primary Weapons:
> - Assault Rifle
> - Storm Rifle
> - Battle Rifle
> - Covenant Carbine
> Secondary Weapons:
> - Magnum
> - GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol
> - SMG
> - Plasma Rifle
> <mark>Grenades:</mark>
> <mark>- Locked at 2 Frags</mark>
> <mark>Armor Abilities:</mark>
> <mark>- Removed from the game and replaced with Equipment</mark>
> <mark>Armor Mods:</mark>
> <mark>- Removed from the game, and wiped from our memories.</mark>**
> **
[/quote]
You don’t think the last part was a little over zealous. I understand that people don’t like plasma grenades being on spawn because they hate getting stuck but it is to some peoples playstyle and you would be leaving others dry. So, we either include an alternative or remove spawning grenades.**
> I had a thread a while ago explaining two different types of starting grenades. Anti personnel and anti vehicle, anti vehicle grenades would be the map and and do half the damage to players if hit. Anti personnel were the ones we had now but they did little damage to vehicles. It makes it so players would have to go looking on the map for the anti armor grenades but be able to spawn with their frags and plasma.
> Introducing alts.
> Plasma and Frag-Players would be able to spawn with. Plasma more anti personnel than frag and sticking to all surfaces, frag have a bigger blast radius and can’t instant kill live plasma.
> Spike and Pulse-Spike grenades would be able to stick to vehicles and players but depending on how many spikes that hit the target is how much damage. Pulse grenades would emp vehicles and when they explode doing massive damage.
> The only difference between AA’s and equipment is that equipment is on the map. No need to be over zealous. Both can work with Halo. Just think of equipment as massive, team grade on the map buffs while AA’s are small, able to spawn with and exclusive to one players abilities.
> Armor Mods-I understand that many were stripped from actual player attributes but others were n’t and were pretty cool to have. I just thin 343i needs to make it so they are very subtle surprises to players.
> Like able to push off a player if they try to jack your vehicle. Of course players would have to respond to a button, it won’t be passive. Another could be when you get jacked you won’t be slowed down for a few moments or be able to jump back on the vehicle. Those are exclusives to vehicles but they could work well. I wouldn’t add in faster reloads because that really hurts the flow of gameplay, but like i said small surprises.
> Such as when you crouch you go lower and pull in tighter, jumping as high if you were to be crouch jumping, moving at 110% speed, and seeing grenades on your motion tracker.

The biggest problems, IMHO, with Halo 4’s loadouts were 1) weapons imbalance, 2) lots of features, few benefits.

To the latter point, removing perks would make the loadout experience more streamlined and preserve more core gameplay, such as shield recharge rates, grenade damage, grenade pickup, etc. Keep it simple, stupid. Right?

The other point about weapons imbalance is key. I propose 2 approaches here: Removing Personal Ordinance would help emphasize how important starting weapons are. Fewer starting weapons, more opportunity for your loadout weapons to shine. The second approach is to simplify the scoped rifles. Give each faction 1 scoped rifle, and let it switch from unscoped burst mode (mid-range) to scoped single shot (long-range). Adjust ROF, RRR, and stopping power based on scope, and it makes very little difference whether you favor full metal jackets, pink needles or orange hardlight.

These are 2 ideas I’ve taken a liking to which I feel can make loadouts more accessible and competitive without forfeiting the custom feature so many enjoy.

> > I completely agree with you there.
> >
> > I’ve been playing Halo Reach for the last few weeks, and the key difference it has from Halo 4 is the abundance of weapons placed on the map. Now, in Halo 4, not only are weapons never physically placed on the map (rather through ordnance), but the map control abilities that were heralded by the “marginal difference” were completely removed.
> >
> > - Personal Ordnance is completely random, unpredictable, and shatters the ability to strategize through equipment placed on the map.
> >
> > - In their current form, Personal Loadouts also contribute to the destruction of the marginal difference by offering the player the ability to spawn with tier-3 power weapons such as the Boltshot, Plasma Pistol, LightRifle, and the DMR.
> >
> > - Armor Abilities and Armor Mods add a level of imbalance to the game by not only offering game-altering abilities to the player (being able to fly and see through walls), but the fact that you have no way of knowing which AA/perk your opponent has adds to more unpredictability.
> >
> > - Vehicle combat is severely negated by people spawning with Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades, and through bullet-based weapons doing extra damage to them.
> >
> > However, despite the evil that is endured by the current eventuality of Loadouts, there are ways to fix them. Apart from what you detail in your linked thread, my personal fate for Loadouts is the following:
> >
> > Primary Weapons:
> > - Assault Rifle
> > - Storm Rifle
> > - Battle Rifle
> > - Covenant Carbine
> > Secondary Weapons:
> > - Magnum
> > - GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol
> > - SMG
> > - Plasma Rifle
> > <mark>Grenades:</mark>
> > <mark>- Locked at 2 Frags</mark>
> > <mark>Armor Abilities:</mark>
> > <mark>- Removed from the game and replaced with Equipment</mark>
> > <mark>Armor Mods:</mark>
> > <mark>- Removed from the game, and wiped from our memories.</mark>**
> > **
[/quote]
You don’t think the last part was a little over zealous. <mark>I understand that people don’t like plasma grenades being on spawn because they hate getting stuck but it is to some peoples playstyle and you would be leaving others dry.</mark> So, we either include an alternative or remove spawning grenades.
[/quote]
I dislike people being able to spawn with Plasma Grenades because I like being able to use vehicles without lasting less than a minute, NOT because of people sticking me with them.**
> > Also, a playstyle that includes people throwing a Plasma Grenade at someone’s face once they near defeat isn’t a very good playstyle to cater to.

> > > I completely agree with you there.
> > >
> > > I’ve been playing Halo Reach for the last few weeks, and the key difference it has from Halo 4 is the abundance of weapons placed on the map. Now, in Halo 4, not only are weapons never physically placed on the map (rather through ordnance), but the map control abilities that were heralded by the “marginal difference” were completely removed.
> > >
> > > - Personal Ordnance is completely random, unpredictable, and shatters the ability to strategize through equipment placed on the map.
> > >
> > > - In their current form, Personal Loadouts also contribute to the destruction of the marginal difference by offering the player the ability to spawn with tier-3 power weapons such as the Boltshot, Plasma Pistol, LightRifle, and the DMR.
> > >
> > > - Armor Abilities and Armor Mods add a level of imbalance to the game by not only offering game-altering abilities to the player (being able to fly and see through walls), but the fact that you have no way of knowing which AA/perk your opponent has adds to more unpredictability.
> > >
> > > - Vehicle combat is severely negated by people spawning with Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades, and through bullet-based weapons doing extra damage to them.
> > >
> > > However, despite the evil that is endured by the current eventuality of Loadouts, there are ways to fix them. Apart from what you detail in your linked thread, my personal fate for Loadouts is the following:
> > >
> > > Primary Weapons:
> > > - Assault Rifle
> > > - Storm Rifle
> > > - Battle Rifle
> > > - Covenant Carbine
> > > Secondary Weapons:
> > > - Magnum
> > > - GHOST OF MA1N3’s Needle Pistol
> > > - SMG
> > > - Plasma Rifle
> > > <mark>Grenades:</mark>
> > > <mark>- Locked at 2 Frags</mark>
> > > <mark>Armor Abilities:</mark>
> > > <mark>- Removed from the game and replaced with Equipment</mark>
> > > <mark>Armor Mods:</mark>
> > > <mark>- Removed from the game, and wiped from our memories.</mark>**
> > > **
[/quote]
You don’t think the last part was a little over zealous. <mark>I understand that people don’t like plasma grenades being on spawn because they hate getting stuck but it is to some peoples playstyle and you would be leaving others dry.</mark> So, we either include an alternative or remove spawning grenades.
[/quote]
I dislike people being able to spawn with Plasma Grenades because I like being able to use vehicles without lasting less than a minute, NOT because of people sticking me with them.**
> > > Also, a playstyle that includes people throwing a Plasma Grenade at someone’s face once they near defeat isn’t a very good playstyle to cater to.
> > > **
[/quote]
All of the problems named have solutions, and are not actually broken at their core. For instance, certain AAs are broken, like jet pack and provision. So let’s just remove THOSE and replace them, it’s not difficult to understand. And as for the random element of not knowing what ability a player has; just give each ability a sign and have it hover over players heads when they get in a certain range, say 50m.**
> > > There you go, balanced and predictable AAs, though I still would like equipment to come back, but not replace armor abilities.