If your familiar with some of the trivia surrounding pre-release Halo: CE you may know that an early weapon envisioned was a sort of UNSC sword, the machete. For reference, this is the long knife/sword found on the Normal, Heroic and Legendary difficulty symbols, which is the only remnant of this weapon that made it’s way into the final game at release and is sort of the last remaining relic of this legacy item. I know we’ve seen the combat knife make an entry into the games through assassinations as well as armor pieces but it would be really cool to see a human equivalent of the energy sword, and I mean come on, how badly do you want to wield one of those beauts on the new ‘Sword & Board’ backpack. Also Chief with a dang sword? Please, next question. You could also differentiate it from the energy sword in various ways. Perhaps by allowing it to be duel-wielded (assuming that would ever come back). In any case, I’m imagining some hardcore Doom vibes slashing my way through angry covies and flood.
That would make for an awesome skull to add kind of like having the scarab gun or unlimited ammunition. It would be pretty cool to be able to use a sword like that but if it isn’t basically just a energy sword clone and it is a new weapon that does not require ammunition it would have to be limited to a 0 scoring campaign or custom game modes only. It would change the core gameplay too much but it would be very fun to play with.
> 2535405142932928;2:
> That would make for an awesome skull to add kind of like having the scarab gun or unlimited ammunition. It would be pretty cool to be able to use a sword like that but if it isn’t basically just a energy sword clone and it is a new weapon that does not require ammunition it would have to be limited to a 0 scoring campaign or custom game modes only. It would change the core gameplay too much but it would be very fun to play with.
Eh, I sort of disagree. I don’t think the machete would be a weapon on the magnitude of a scarab gun or anything like that. Certainly could be considered a power weapon, though I’d make it less powerful than the energy sword. Basically imagine all of your basic melee stats just increased a little - damage, lunge, recovery time. In the minds of players it would nestle right into the sandbox beside the energy sword so I’m not seeing how anything core in the gameplay would be altered. It’s an item Halo players are already familiar with in the past games, in terms of how/when to use. You do bring up an extremely good point about ammunition though. The sword might degrade and eventually break or honestly you could make it indestructible. I don’t think it’s that much of an advantage to hold on to, even for as long as you want. You only have two weapon slots, and it’s a short range melee weapon, so there would be a huge payoff to keeping it around longer than needed.
The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but _______.
> 2533274810177460;4:
> The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
>
> The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
>
> But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
>
> The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but _______.
That is a big part of my point, it would probably end up basically as a weapon clone. If it was something other than that it likely would change the core gameplay too much. It would be great to see some more unique weapons but making them fit into the core gameplay puts limitations on them. It could however be added as an optional assassination weapon with no consequences, just replace the knife with it if you equip your Spartan with it through the customization options.
> 2535405142932928;5:
> > 2533274810177460;4:
> > The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
> >
> > The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
> >
> > But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
> >
> > The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but _______.
>
> That is a big part of my point, it would probably end up basically as a weapon clone. If it was something other than that it likely would change the core gameplay too much. It would be great to see some more unique weapons but making them fit into the core gameplay puts limitations on them. It could however be added as an optional assassination weapon with no consequences, just replace the knife with it if you equip your Spartan with it through the customization options.
Yeah I see what you both are saying. So this is a “yes, and”, not a “no, but” - Variety is the spice of life. there are a fair share of duplicate weapons that are slightly tweaked from one another already present in the games. That differentiation could happen with the machete. There is only one other blade in the game, the energy sword, so it seems there’s plenty of room to accommodate an addition. It wouldn’t have to be the reskinned energy sword by any means. Also, I don’t personally see moderate redundancy in the sandbox as a massive issue, as long as there is just one basic weapon type per faction - IMO provided each weapon is given the adequate amount of love, the more the merrier. Call me crazy, but I do enjoy having the options, especially with the more open nature of Infinite.
> 2533274838687111;6:
> > 2535405142932928;5:
> > > 2533274810177460;4:
> > > The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
> > >
> > > The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
> > >
> > > But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
> > >
> > > The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but _______.
> >
> > That is a big part of my point, it would probably end up basically as a weapon clone. If it was something other than that it likely would change the core gameplay too much. It would be great to see some more unique weapons but making them fit into the core gameplay puts limitations on them. It could however be added as an optional assassination weapon with no consequences, just replace the knife with it if you equip your Spartan with it through the customization options.
>
> Yeah I see what you both are saying. So this is a “yes, and”, not a “no, but” - Variety is the spice of life. there are a fair share of duplicate weapons that are slightly tweaked from one another already present in the games. That differentiation could happen with the machete. There is only one other blade in the game, the energy sword, so it seems there’s plenty of room to accommodate an addition. It wouldn’t have to be the reskinned energy sword by any means. Also, I don’t personally see moderate redundancy in the sandbox as a massive issue, as long as there is just one basic weapon type per faction - IMO provided each weapon is given the adequate amount of love, the more the merrier. Call me crazy, but I do enjoy having the options, especially with the more open nature of Infinite.
That’s not the direction Infinite is going though. It’s aiming to cut back on weapon redundancy, so that every weapon feels like it has a reason to be picked up.
Most players don’t bother collecting the Carbine or Magnum in a BR starts game, for example. So why just keep adding unused weapons to the game when they can, instead, completely rework the Carbine into a mid ranged team support weapon (something sorely missing from the sandbox since CE) and replace the Magnum with a fast-acting sidearm that can help you clean up a kill in a pinch. Suddenly you have two weapons that there’s a reason to pick up, other than just acting as bonus reserve utility ammo.
I think the Machete could have been a joke weapon that defeats mainly Flood forms with an instant dismemberment. Would be fun or something I don’t know.
> 2533274810177460;4:
> The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
>
> The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
>
> But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
>
> The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but _______.
You know, I really don’t get this redundancy thing and I think it’s ridiculous. I don’t want to lose weapons I enjoy using just because some people think they’re a little too similar to other weapons. Isn’t it enough that the weapons differentiate themselves significantly through vastly different visual designs and sound effects, as well as various other little things such as melee animations, reload animations and idle animations?
I suppose the Beam Rifle, one of Halo’s most beautiful guns (until Halo 4, which ruined the design), should never return because some people somehow see just a “purple sniper” despite its differences? Or the Mauler? One of my favourite new weapons in Halo 3. It feels like a shotgun, obviously, but not like the shotgun we had already, thanks to things like the unique design and sound effects (which I really love!) and the ability to dual wield, among other things. But don’t worry, I’ve already given up hope of seeing the Mauler return. The Mangler made sure of that! What a rip-off!
A-and how can you even call the Gravity Hammer a sword? It’s literally a war hammer. It doesn’t have the sword’s lunge, the attack is an area-of-effect strike instead of a precise single target strike, you can conserve its energy by melee-ing with the B button, and like you said, the weapon’s attack can affect physics like deflecting rockets (I’ve never managed to do that). Isn’t that more than enough?
And now we can’t have a human machete or blade because it has to be exactly like the energy sword, or it has some insignificant difference/similarities. Well then, let’s just remove the Energy Sword! Problem solved, right? Now we can have a human sword weapon without any talk of redundancy. I’m sure 343 won’t mind! They did give us a new pistol and shotgun already, both of which are replacing the original versions, at least at launch.
> 2533274810177460;7:
> > 2533274838687111;6:
> > > 2535405142932928;5:
> > > > 2533274810177460;4:
> > > > The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
> > > >
> > > > The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
> > > >
> > > > But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
> > > >
> > > > The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but _______.
> > >
> > > That is a big part of my point, it would probably end up basically as a weapon clone. If it was something other than that it likely would change the core gameplay too much. It would be great to see some more unique weapons but making them fit into the core gameplay puts limitations on them. It could however be added as an optional assassination weapon with no consequences, just replace the knife with it if you equip your Spartan with it through the customization options.
> >
> > Yeah I see what you both are saying. So this is a “yes, and”, not a “no, but” - Variety is the spice of life. there are a fair share of duplicate weapons that are slightly tweaked from one another already present in the games. That differentiation could happen with the machete. There is only one other blade in the game, the energy sword, so it seems there’s plenty of room to accommodate an addition. It wouldn’t have to be the reskinned energy sword by any means. Also, I don’t personally see moderate redundancy in the sandbox as a massive issue, as long as there is just one basic weapon type per faction - IMO provided each weapon is given the adequate amount of love, the more the merrier. Call me crazy, but I do enjoy having the options, especially with the more open nature of Infinite.
>
> That’s not the direction Infinite is going though. It’s aiming to cut back on weapon redundancy, so that every weapon feels like it has a reason to be picked up.
>
> Most players don’t bother collecting the Carbine or Magnum in a BR starts game, for example. So why just keep adding unused weapons to the game when they can, instead, completely rework the Carbine into a mid ranged team support weapon (something sorely missing from the sandbox since CE) and replace the Magnum with a fast-acting sidearm that can help you clean up a kill in a pinch. Suddenly you have two weapons that there’s a reason to pick up, other than just acting as bonus reserve utility ammo.
Lot’s of interesting points. So! First, it’s an interesting point you bring up with the weapon design philosophy in Infinite. I did not actually know that. I assumed it would head the direction of Destiny and introduce more weapons into the sandbox. And while I do appreciate your supporting arguments & critiques on the nature of balancing weapons to fill unique tactical scenarios (one side point btw I happen to always go for the Carbine and tend to perform much better with it over the BR in squad battles), what I’m trying to say is this basic sentiment could be applied to a UNSC sword. I think there is room for human melee weapon in the sandbox so far as they create a proper tactical niche for it.
If not, maybe just have as a forge item that’s a reskinned energy sword ¯_(ツ)_/¯
> 2533274838687111;10:
> > 2533274810177460;7:
> > > 2533274838687111;6:
> > > > 2535405142932928;5:
> > > > > 2533274810177460;4:
> > > > > The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
> > > > >
> > > > > But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but ______.
> > > >
> > > > That is a big part of my point, it would probably end up basically as a weapon clone. If it was something other than that it likely would change the core gameplay too much. It would be great to see some more unique weapons but making them fit into the core gameplay puts limitations on them. It could however be added as an optional assassination weapon with no consequences, just replace the knife with it if you equip your Spartan with it through the customization options.
> > >
> > > Yeah I see what you both are saying. So this is a “yes, and”, not a “no, but” - Variety is the spice of life. there are a fair share of duplicate weapons that are slightly tweaked from one another already present in the games. That differentiation could happen with the machete. There is only one other blade in the game, the energy sword, so it seems there’s plenty of room to accommodate an addition. It wouldn’t have to be the reskinned energy sword by any means. Also, I don’t personally see moderate redundancy in the sandbox as a massive issue, as long as there is just one basic weapon type per faction - IMO provided each weapon is given the adequate amount of love, the more the merrier. Call me crazy, but I do enjoy having the options, especially with the more open nature of Infinite.
> >
> > That’s not the direction Infinite is going though. It’s aiming to cut back on weapon redundancy, so that every weapon feels like it has a reason to be picked up.
> >
> > Most players don’t bother collecting the Carbine or Magnum in a BR starts game, for example. So why just keep adding unused weapons to the game when they can, instead, completely rework the Carbine into a mid ranged team support weapon (something sorely missing from the sandbox since CE) and replace the Magnum with a fast-acting sidearm that can help you clean up a kill in a pinch. Suddenly you have two weapons that there’s a reason to pick up, other than just acting as bonus reserve utility ammo.
>
> Lot’s of interesting points. So! First, it’s an interesting point you bring up with the weapon design philosophy in Infinite. I did not actually know that. I assumed it would head the direction of Destiny and introduce more weapons into the sandbox. And while I do appreciate your supporting arguments & critiques on the nature of balancing weapons to fill unique tactical scenarios (one side point btw I happen to always go for the Carbine and tend to perform much better with it over the BR in squad battles), what I’m trying to say is this basic sentiment could be applied to a UNSC sword. I think there is room for human melee weapon in the sandbox so far as they create a proper tactical niche for it.
>
> If not, maybe just have as a forge item that’s a reskinned energy sword ¯_(ツ)/¯
The think about melee weapons in Halo, is that then it gets down to it it always fills the same role as the shotgun weapons. In fact, in most Halo titles the sword in particular has had an even longer one-hit-kill range than the Shotgun has. An argument can even be made that they use the exact same playstyle and skillset, either biding your time or closing the game until the target enters your kill range, then aim and hit RT (followed by a Melee if the shotty doesn’t quite land enough pellets). So for all intents and purposes, the shotgun is the UNSC melee weapon. More often though, I tend to think of the Sword and Hammer as Covenant and Brute shotguns.
Now we are getting the Bulldog this time around which looks to be serving as Infinite’s attempt at distancing the role between the Shotgun and Sword. Making the Sword the more lethal, closer range option while the Bulldog seems to have sacrificed one-shot-kill power for a much tighter pellet grouping and longer range. It kind of looks like it’ll be replacing the Storm Rifle and SMG’s “close range assault weapon” role with something that feels more unique. The storm rifle is notorious for just being a boring plasma SMG. Which is already just a close range AR. So these weapons will stick out more, but we’ve also got Brutes which means Hammers. So how they will rework the balance between the Sword and Hammer will remain to be seen.
> 2533274810177460;11:
> > 2533274838687111;10:
> > > 2533274810177460;7:
> > > > 2533274838687111;6:
> > > > > 2535405142932928;5:
> > > > > > 2533274810177460;4:
> > > > > > The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but ______.
> > > > >
> > > > > That is a big part of my point, it would probably end up basically as a weapon clone. If it was something other than that it likely would change the core gameplay too much. It would be great to see some more unique weapons but making them fit into the core gameplay puts limitations on them. It could however be added as an optional assassination weapon with no consequences, just replace the knife with it if you equip your Spartan with it through the customization options.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah I see what you both are saying. So this is a “yes, and”, not a “no, but” - Variety is the spice of life. there are a fair share of duplicate weapons that are slightly tweaked from one another already present in the games. That differentiation could happen with the machete. There is only one other blade in the game, the energy sword, so it seems there’s plenty of room to accommodate an addition. It wouldn’t have to be the reskinned energy sword by any means. Also, I don’t personally see moderate redundancy in the sandbox as a massive issue, as long as there is just one basic weapon type per faction - IMO provided each weapon is given the adequate amount of love, the more the merrier. Call me crazy, but I do enjoy having the options, especially with the more open nature of Infinite.
> > >
> > > That’s not the direction Infinite is going though. It’s aiming to cut back on weapon redundancy, so that every weapon feels like it has a reason to be picked up.
> > >
> > > Most players don’t bother collecting the Carbine or Magnum in a BR starts game, for example. So why just keep adding unused weapons to the game when they can, instead, completely rework the Carbine into a mid ranged team support weapon (something sorely missing from the sandbox since CE) and replace the Magnum with a fast-acting sidearm that can help you clean up a kill in a pinch. Suddenly you have two weapons that there’s a reason to pick up, other than just acting as bonus reserve utility ammo.
> >
> > Lot’s of interesting points. So! First, it’s an interesting point you bring up with the weapon design philosophy in Infinite. I did not actually know that. I assumed it would head the direction of Destiny and introduce more weapons into the sandbox. And while I do appreciate your supporting arguments & critiques on the nature of balancing weapons to fill unique tactical scenarios (one side point btw I happen to always go for the Carbine and tend to perform much better with it over the BR in squad battles), what I’m trying to say is this basic sentiment could be applied to a UNSC sword. I think there is room for human melee weapon in the sandbox so far as they create a proper tactical niche for it.
> >
> > If not, maybe just have as a forge item that’s a reskinned energy sword ¯_(ツ)/¯
>
> The think about melee weapons in Halo, is that then it gets down to it it always fills the same role as the shotgun weapons. In fact, in most Halo titles the sword in particular has had an even longer one-hit-kill range than the Shotgun has. An argument can even be made that they use the exact same playstyle and skillset, either biding your time or closing the game until the target enters your kill range, then aim and hit RT (followed by a Melee if the shotty doesn’t quite land enough pellets). So for all intents and purposes, the shotgun is the UNSC melee weapon. More often though, I tend to think of the Sword and Hammer as Covenant and Brute shotguns.
>
> Now we are getting the Bulldog this time around which looks to be serving as Infinite’s attempt at distancing the role between the Shotgun and Sword. Making the Sword the more lethal, closer range option while the Bulldog seems to have sacrificed one-shot-kill power for a much tighter pellet grouping and longer range. It kind of looks like it’ll be replacing the Storm Rifle and SMG’s “close range assault weapon” role with something that feels more unique. The storm rifle is notorious for just being a boring plasma SMG. Which is already just a close range AR. So these weapons will stick out more, but we’ve also got Brutes which means Hammers. So how they will rework the balance between the Sword and Hammer will remain to be seen.
Your philosophy is a peek into a lot of the mathematical balancing that goes on behind the scenes with how players damage one another. And it’s a really nice breakdown. However, to speak about that technical level of analysis as indistinguishable from the level of player experience is an error IMO. While yes, shotguns do function in some ways similar to a sword and hence may be useful in similar scenarios, it’s not that simple of an equivocation. Hammers =/= swords =/= shotguns. It would be a gross oversimplification to assume the opposite. True, they are all CQB weapons but that’s where the comparison should stop before it becomes reductionist. You know, we don’t go around claiming that the BR and DMR are redundant - We’ve justified both of their unique tactical uses in order to entrench them in further Halo games, when in reality we keep them around because they are just really dang awesome. And if you start to look into it you could make the case that you only need a single mid-range human scoped weapon, and indeed that was the case many fans were making in H4 when 343i announced they were carrying over the DMR from Reach and simultaneously reintroducing the BR from the original trilogy. The differentiation in practice occurs foremost in the minds of players as SpecialShelf753 was alluding to earlier in the chain. The “cool/fun” factor should always be #1 consideration when developing any game.
The Katana could also be a really nice skin for the machete…
> 2533274838687111;12:
> > 2533274810177460;11:
> > > 2533274838687111;10:
> > > > 2533274810177460;7:
> > > > > 2533274838687111;6:
> > > > > > 2535405142932928;5:
> > > > > > > 2533274810177460;4:
> > > > > > > The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but _______.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That is a big part of my point, it would probably end up basically as a weapon clone. If it was something other than that it likely would change the core gameplay too much. It would be great to see some more unique weapons but making them fit into the core gameplay puts limitations on them. It could however be added as an optional assassination weapon with no consequences, just replace the knife with it if you equip your Spartan with it through the customization options.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah I see what you both are saying. So this is a “yes, and”, not a “no, but” - Variety is the spice of life. there are a fair share of duplicate weapons that are slightly tweaked from one another already present in the games. That differentiation could happen with the machete. There is only one other blade in the game, the energy sword, so it seems there’s plenty of room to accommodate an addition. It wouldn’t have to be the reskinned energy sword by any means. Also, I don’t personally see moderate redundancy in the sandbox as a massive issue, as long as there is just one basic weapon type per faction - IMO provided each weapon is given the adequate amount of love, the more the merrier. Call me crazy, but I do enjoy having the options, especially with the more open nature of Infinite.
> > > >
> > > > That’s not the direction Infinite is going though. It’s aiming to cut back on weapon redundancy, so that every weapon feels like it has a reason to be picked up.
> > > >
> > > > Most players don’t bother collecting the Carbine or Magnum in a BR starts game, for example. So why just keep adding unused weapons to the game when they can, instead, completely rework the Carbine into a mid ranged team support weapon (something sorely missing from the sandbox since CE) and replace the Magnum with a fast-acting sidearm that can help you clean up a kill in a pinch. Suddenly you have two weapons that there’s a reason to pick up, other than just acting as bonus reserve utility ammo.
> >
> > The think about melee weapons in Halo, is that then it gets down to it it always fills the same role as the shotgun weapons. In fact, in most Halo titles the sword in particular has had an even longer one-hit-kill range than the Shotgun has. An argument can even be made that they use the exact same playstyle and skillset, either biding your time or closing the game until the target enters your kill range, then aim and hit RT (followed by a Melee if the shotty doesn’t quite land enough pellets). So for all intents and purposes, the shotgun is the UNSC melee weapon. More often though, I tend to think of the Sword and Hammer as Covenant and Brute shotguns.
> >
> > Now we are getting the Bulldog this time around which looks to be serving as Infinite’s attempt at distancing the role between the Shotgun and Sword. Making the Sword the more lethal, closer range option while the Bulldog seems to have sacrificed one-shot-kill power for a much tighter pellet grouping and longer range. It kind of looks like it’ll be replacing the Storm Rifle and SMG’s “close range assault weapon” role with something that feels more unique. The storm rifle is notorious for just being a boring plasma SMG. Which is already just a close range AR. So these weapons will stick out more, but we’ve also got Brutes which means Hammers. So how they will rework the balance between the Sword and Hammer will remain to be seen.
>
> Your philosophy is a peek into a lot of the mathematical balancing that goes on behind the scenes with how players damage one another. And it’s a really nice breakdown. However, to speak about that technical level of analysis as indistinguishable from the level of player experience is an error IMO. While yes, shotguns do function in some ways similar to a sword and hence may be useful in similar scenarios, it’s not that simple of an equivocation. Hammers =/= swords =/= shotguns. It would be a gross oversimplification to assume the opposite. True, they are all CQB weapons but that’s where the comparison should stop before it becomes reductionist. You know, we don’t go around claiming that the BR and DMR are redundant - We’ve justified both of their unique tactical uses in order to entrench them in further Halo games, when in reality we keep them around because they are just really dang awesome. And if you start to look into it you could make the case that you only need a single mid-range human scoped weapon, and indeed that was the case many fans were making in H4 when 343i announced they were carrying over the DMR from Reach and simultaneously reintroducing the BR from the original trilogy. The differentiation in practice occurs foremost in the minds of players as SpecialShelf753 was alluding to earlier in the chain. The “cool/fun” factor should always be #1 consideration when developing any game.
Reductionist suggests Infinite is set to have a smaller sandbox than previous titles. But that’s not the design goal 343 highlighted in the Inside Infinite sandbox post. It’s not about shrinking the sandbox, it’s about building a sandbox with less redundancy, by exploring how to make weapons that actually serve unique purposes in the sandbox.
I’m not sure if the DMR will return, but if it does I wouldn’t be surprised if not only do we not see the Light Rifle, at least not in the form of a DMR/BR hybrid counterpart, but also that effort is made to further separate it’s role from the BR. Having it serve a more dedicated long range archetype through damage and aim assist values, as opposed to being a “Utility weapon” that trades off a tiny bit of DPS for a significantly longer effective range, it might be designed to actually struggle in close-mid range engagements due to a complete lack of unscoped aim assist. Making it a truly “designated” marksman rifle.
Or what seems the most likely, is that it’s being replaced completely by the Commando. An extremely precise automatic weapon that’s been shown to have a 3x scope. Which would definitely provide the precision archetype with something it has never really had before outside of the fully automatic Carbine variant in Warzone. And that gun felt very fun and unique to use. (Before you mention them, I know the NR and CE magnum are technically automatic, but they don’t have a high RPM and are rarely, if ever, used like autos)
> 2533274810177460;14:
> > 2533274838687111;12:
> > > 2533274810177460;11:
> > > > 2533274838687111;10:
> > > > > 2533274810177460;7:
> > > > > > 2533274838687111;6:
> > > > > > > 2535405142932928;5:
> > > > > > > > 2533274810177460;4:
> > > > > > > > The problem is sandbox redundancy. The “close range” niche has had problems with blood ever since Halo 3, with there constantly being 4 or more weapons that are just slightly different close-range one-hit-kill weapons.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Sword and Shotgun found a nice balance, with the Sword being more effective in general with the shotgun sacrificing one-hit-kill range for the ability to directly counter the sword.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But then the Hammer, Mauler, and Scattershot only served to be shotguns and swords with some bonus property, the Hammer is a Sword that also causes physics, probably the coolest one because it can be used to counter rockets and vehicles, the Mauler is just the Shotgun but dual wield able, and the Scattershot is just the Shotgun but with bouncy projectiles.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Mechete would fall into the same problem. It’s just the sword but _______.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That is a big part of my point, it would probably end up basically as a weapon clone. If it was something other than that it likely would change the core gameplay too much. It would be great to see some more unique weapons but making them fit into the core gameplay puts limitations on them. It could however be added as an optional assassination weapon with no consequences, just replace the knife with it if you equip your Spartan with it through the customization options.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah I see what you both are saying. So this is a “yes, and”, not a “no, but” - Variety is the spice of life. there are a fair share of duplicate weapons that are slightly tweaked from one another already present in the games. That differentiation could happen with the machete. There is only one other blade in the game, the energy sword, so it seems there’s plenty of room to accommodate an addition. It wouldn’t have to be the reskinned energy sword by any means. Also, I don’t personally see moderate redundancy in the sandbox as a massive issue, as long as there is just one basic weapon type per faction - IMO provided each weapon is given the adequate amount of love, the more the merrier. Call me crazy, but I do enjoy having the options, especially with the more open nature of Infinite.
> > > > >
> > > > > That’s not the direction Infinite is going though. It’s aiming to cut back on weapon redundancy, so that every weapon feels like it has a reason to be picked up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Most players don’t bother collecting the Carbine or Magnum in a BR starts game, for example. So why just keep adding unused weapons to the game when they can, instead, completely rework the Carbine into a mid ranged team support weapon (something sorely missing from the sandbox since CE) and replace the Magnum with a fast-acting sidearm that can help you clean up a kill in a pinch. Suddenly you have two weapons that there’s a reason to pick up, other than just acting as bonus reserve utility ammo.
> >
> > Your philosophy is a peek into a lot of the mathematical balancing that goes on behind the scenes with how players damage one another. And it’s a really nice breakdown. However, to speak about that technical level of analysis as indistinguishable from the level of player experience is an error IMO. While yes, shotguns do function in some ways similar to a sword and hence may be useful in similar scenarios, it’s not that simple of an equivocation. Hammers =/= swords =/= shotguns. It would be a gross oversimplification to assume the opposite. True, they are all CQB weapons but that’s where the comparison should stop before it becomes reductionist. You know, we don’t go around claiming that the BR and DMR are redundant - We’ve justified both of their unique tactical uses in order to entrench them in further Halo games, when in reality we keep them around because they are just really dang awesome. And if you start to look into it you could make the case that you only need a single mid-range human scoped weapon, and indeed that was the case many fans were making in H4 when 343i announced they were carrying over the DMR from Reach and simultaneously reintroducing the BR from the original trilogy. The differentiation in practice occurs foremost in the minds of players as SpecialShelf753 was alluding to earlier in the chain. The “cool/fun” factor should always be #1 consideration when developing any game.
>
> Reductionist suggests Infinite is set to have a smaller sandbox than previous titles. But that’s not the design goal 343 highlighted in the Inside Infinite sandbox post. It’s not about shrinking the sandbox, it’s about building a sandbox with less redundancy, by exploring how to make weapons that actually serve unique purposes in the sandbox.
>
> I’m not sure if the DMR will return, but if it does I wouldn’t be surprised if not only do we not see the Light Rifle, at least not in the form of a DMR/BR hybrid counterpart, but also that effort is made to further separate it’s role from the BR. Having it serve a more dedicated long range archetype through damage and aim assist values, as opposed to being a “Utility weapon” that trades off a tiny bit of DPS for a significantly longer effective range, it might be designed to actually struggle in close-mid range engagements due to a complete lack of unscoped aim assist. Making it a truly “designated” marksman rifle.
>
> Or what seems the most likely, is that it’s being replaced completely by the Commando. An extremely precise automatic weapon that’s been shown to have a 3x scope. Which would definitely provide the precision archetype with something it has never really had before outside of the fully automatic Carbine variant in Warzone. And that gun felt very fun and unique to use. (Before you mention them, I know the NR and CE magnum are technically automatic, but they don’t have a high RPM and are rarely, if ever, used like autos)
I do really do like the design background you’ve shared that 343i is taking to individualize each weapon and thus justify it’s role in the chess-like sandbox balance, and it’s super interesting to hear. I know they were working with a lot of pro-gamers in the lead up to H5 to alpha test the gameplay dance and get it in the best place they could so this sounds like a similar process.
That would be crazy if ithe DMR didn’t return! I’d much rather see B-rate mid-range weapons like the Light Rifle be dropped before eating away at the more beloved items. Very cool you bring up the Commando in this regard, as I had the same thought watching it in action. I was like this totally fills the role of a DMR and a SAW combined. So if they really are cutting off the fat from the sandbox, that might have been one of the ways they’ll do it. Which, if true, is an interesting look into the balancing going on behind the scenes - Will we see other new weapons that are essentially a merging of the functions of two older ones?
But yeah full auto scope at that range would be a first for Halo. I believe the first full true auto scoped weapon was the silenced SMG, but the range on that is obviously much shorter. But a lot of this conversation about balancing may be moot if 343i takes a similar approach to H5 with Infinite and adds a metric yoink-ton of new content after release. Which if they do to tie all of this back, I would love a Machete lol.