The 'Goldilocks' Zone For Weapon Range

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

We need to try and hammer out what is a proper weapon range for spawn weapons and ones that are overly abundant on maps for a few reasons.

  1. Starting weapon range can determine if a map flows well or not, for instance look at Halo 3’s ‘The Pit’ and Halo 4’s "Pitfall’.

In Halo 3, the BR could not get the RRR (Red Reticule Range) on an opposing player with sniper when both players are standing next to the turret.

Now in Halo 4, a person can get a RRR lock with a DMR/LR from both standing next to turret.

This in my opinion can adversely affect map flow, giving players the ability to affect a large radius around the player as opposed to someone with the range of a BR, which can translate to less moving around and more long range shooting.

  1. These weapons can have a massive impact on map design, for example larger maps to accommodate stronger starting weapons as well as better movement speed.

This is partly why Halo 4 had such massive maps, it’s not good to have players easily spawn kill with a loadout weapon.

With that said, I feel the BR is the perfect weapon to gauge range on, the maps in Halo 3 were extremely well made and fairly balanced in regards to weapon range for small team battles.

The best weapon to build a map around for 4v4 IMO would be the BR’s range, it’s accommodating enough to allow CQB fights but has enough of a buffer to fight AR’s at good ranges and allows and even encourages map movement.

Thoughts and opinions?

2

I’m of the opinion that the DMR should be a midsized PW like the Conc Rifle or SAW. Make it a three shot kill but balance it with little amounts of aim assists.

Solves a lot of problems right there.

As for the LR, chop it’s range down to the BR/Carbines and adjust it accordingly.

I’m also of the opinion that we should do more to blur the concept of close and mid range weapons and make automatics much more similar to the precision weapons by increasing their effective range utilizing Short Controlled Bursts and giving them a damage boost to headshots. Automatics are still niched and underutilized weapons because of their short effective ranges, more so after the TU, and unfit for use if the majority of the players on the map are using precision weapons.

Still give precision weapons the instant kill headshot bonus and still give automatics unprecedented damage at close range with full auto.

3

I do not think that a map should be build around a single weapon because then that weapon will be clearly dominating on that map.
I mean why have the precision rifles been almost everytime the more viable option, even in Halo 4 where they have all a dominating niche after the update?
It’s because the majority of the maps already supports the precision rifles more than the assault rifles.
There has been way more maps with long ranges of sight (“hallways”), open fields and long range power positions that give you an wide view/controle over a large part of the map than short ranges of sight (“winding alleys”), narrow areas/rooms and close range power positions.

Building maps solely around the BR would mean that the maps have more “hallways” instead of “winding alleys” and with that the BR would become clearly superior to all the other rifles.

In conclusion, I think that the majority of the 4v4 map should equally support assault rifles and precision rifles with an even amount of hallways"/open fields/long range power positions and “winding alleys”/narrow rooms/close range power positions.
It mainly depends on map design if either the precision rifles or the assault rifles are the most effective.

The issue with the DMR and Lightrifle is indeed their effective range: long range.
The player should simply not be able to spawn with those weapons, since spawning with them has led to static cross map battles, a discouragement of map movement.
I think the DMR and Lightrifle should simply be placed on the map, perhaps even with a slight buff in some way.
At least, the Lightrifle should definitely become a power weapon in my opinion since it is a Forerunner weapon. (i.e. 3sk when scoped, 4sk when unscoped)
To balance them for close range you could decrease the size of their reticle.

4

> I do not think that a map should be build around a single weapon because then that weapon will be clearly dominating on that map.
> I mean why have the precision rifles been almost everytime the more viable option, even in Halo 4 where they have all a dominating niche after the update?
> It’s because the majority of the maps already supports the precision rifles more than the assault rifles.
> There has been way more maps with long ranges of sight (“hallways”), open fields and long range power positions that give you an wide view/controle over a large part of the map than short ranges of sight (“winding alleys”), narrow areas/rooms and close range power positions.
>
> Building maps solely around the BR would mean that the maps have more “hallways” instead of “winding alleys” and with that the BR would become clearly superior to all the other rifles.
>
> <mark>In conclusion, I think that the majority of the 4v4 map should equally support assault rifles and precision rifles</mark> with an even amount of hallways"/open fields/long range power positions and “winding alleys”/narrow rooms/close range power positions.
> It mainly depends on map design if either the precision rifles or the assault rifles are the most effective.
>
>
> The issue with the DMR and Lightrifle is indeed their effective range: long range.
> The player should simply not be able to spawn with those weapons, since spawning with them has led to static cross map battles, a discouragement of map movement.
> I think the DMR and Lightrifle should simply be placed on the map, perhaps even with a slight buff in some way.
> At least, the Lightrifle should definitely become a power weapon in my opinion since it is a Forerunner weapon. (i.e. 3sk when scoped, 4sk when unscoped)
> To balance them for close range you could decrease the size of their reticle.

That’s outside of the point I was trying to make. AR and BR can easily co-exist on 4v4 maps, look at Pitfall and The Pit, Snowbound, Epitaph, Guardian and many more.

They all support a varied form of weapons, Guardian has long hallways to allow a BR user to push to the other side, then there are two other ways an AR user can safely push to one side or the other.

The point I am generally trying to make is there should be a general focus of what the primary weapon range for the maps is, and then build the map with that in mind, -e.g the two sniper towers on The Pit, outside of the effective range of the BR, giving it a powerful position for sniping, but allows cover for AR, BR and all other users in between.

But the problem is, I doubt it’s fair to make a 4v4 type map that is built for AR’s only, we just need maps built enabling multiple forms of combat; just built for in terms of size of a long range weapon allowed on the map.

5

I agree, one of the biggest problems with Halo 4 was that the average range of encounters went from being mid-range to long-range due to the massive size of maps. This problem was created both by Sprint as well as the ability to spawn with long-ranged weapons (though the former was a bigger issue, I think).

For future Halo games, 343i should try to focus more on the mid-range encounters that were seen in Bungie’s Halo games. This promotes more tactical gameplay, forcing players to move around and be smart. In Halo 4, it’s far too easy to stick to one spot and destroy anybody who comes relatively near you.

6

Agree having a spawn able gun that can shoot across a map is Not going to work that well.

Look at Halo 4s BTB most maps have little to no safe map movement
But if you make everyone spawn with a BR in H4 BtB tons would change and much would be better. Then add the other guns on Map

7

Having a set number or goal for where Short Range combat ends, medium range combat ends and long range combat ends would definetly help improve map making. Not only for the devs themselves, but potentially Forge maps as well if they were adjusted properly.

I’m not going to give numbers, but allowing a fixed number to allow players to know which weapon would work best can help make the game better overall. I would also think that maybe re-doing the radar to have a mark indicating a certain number of meters that can help players get a more informative decision on what they should have can definitely make the game better IMO.

I’d like this. It would make the game more understandable, not easier like Halo 4 attempted to do, and messed up.

8

> I agree, one of the biggest problems with Halo 4 was that the average range of encounters went from being mid-range to long-range due to the massive size of maps. This problem was created both by Sprint as well as the ability to spawn with long-ranged weapons (though the former was a bigger issue, I think).
>
> For future Halo games, 343i should try to focus more on the mid-range encounters that were seen in Bungie’s Halo games. This promotes more tactical gameplay, forcing players to move around and be smart. In Halo 4, it’s far too easy to stick to one spot and destroy anybody who comes relatively near you.

Indeed! We need maps that are flexible enough to support 4v4/5v5 but small enough to allow good map flow with set limitations in mind for utility weapons such as AR/BR.

And allow DMR/LR be more prevalent on BTB maps but still, not as widely used because the massive ranges still slow map flow if you look at Ragnarok, it’s far too easy to slay a team into their base and keep them in a terrible position from top laser spawn.

9

> Having a set number or goal for where Short Range combat ends, medium range combat ends and long range combat ends would definetly help improve map making. Not only for the devs themselves, but potentially Forge maps as well if they were adjusted properly.
>
> I’m not going to give numbers, but allowing a fixed number to allow players to know which weapon would work best can help make the game better overall. I would also think that maybe re-doing the radar to have a mark indicating a certain number of meters that can help players get a more informative decision on what they should have can definitely make the game better IMO.
>
> I’d like this. It would make the game more understandable, not easier like Halo 4 attempted to do, and messed up.

I wonder if giving a range finder in monitor mode would also help building forged maps, allowing easier spacing in maps allowing the designer to do things a bit more on the fly.

10

there isn’t a perfect balanced range as long as “skilled” players can snipe across the length of the longest map with the pistol and get head shots at will.

11

> > Having a set number or goal for where Short Range combat ends, medium range combat ends and long range combat ends would definetly help improve map making. Not only for the devs themselves, but potentially Forge maps as well if they were adjusted properly.
> >
> > I’m not going to give numbers, but allowing a fixed number to allow players to know which weapon would work best can help make the game better overall. I would also think that maybe re-doing the radar to have a mark indicating a certain number of meters that can help players get a more informative decision on what they should have can definitely make the game better IMO.
> >
> > I’d like this. It would make the game more understandable, not easier like Halo 4 attempted to do, and messed up.
>
> I wonder if giving a range finder in monitor mode would also help building forged maps, allowing easier spacing in maps allowing the designer to do things a bit more on the fly.

I think it would be great. It would be helpful to create a symmetrical map with a ruler instead of eyeballing the grid and hope the snap feature lines everything up right.

12

> I’m of the opinion that the DMR should be a midsized PW like the Conc Rifle or SAW. Make it a three shot kill but balance it with little amounts of aim assists.
>
> Solves a lot of problems right there.

I’m a little wary of including utility power weapons on maps. All power weapon pick ups should have a healthy counter metagame with spawn weapons. Despite their power, Power weapons should also have weaknesses and risks associated with them, giving spawners a chance to defeat them. It creates a skill gap in the use of power weapons. It creates a wrong way to use power weapons. Hence why utility weapons are the favoured starting weapon in competitive play.

Take the relationship with the DMR and the Sniper Rifle as an example of a healthy balanced relationship. They are both long range single shot rifles. But the Sniper Rifle is much more powerful and has a much greater range. But as a down side it has a very limited clip size, it has a slower ROF and it has much less aim assist. The descoping mechanic also temporarily removes the Snipers range advantage. This gives the Sniper a clear counter. It is extremely difficult to use accurately when under sustained fire. Allowing for suppressive fire tactics. Also there is only enough time for the Sniper to fire twice before the minimum kill time of the DMR. The Sniper Rifle is better but the DMR has a fighting chance.

Then take the AR and SAW as an example of an unhealthy relationship. The SAW is a straight upgrade of the AR in every way. Superior damage per second, superior range, superior ammo capacity. There is nothing that balances the 2 weapons.

If the DMR became a power weapon, it needs weaknesses, it can’t just be a straight upgrade of the BR. Similar to how it was in pre-Turbo Throwdown. But at the same time it needs to be powerful enough to be a worth while pick up and it probably shouldn’t have an inferior kill time to the BR. Maybe it could be buffed to a 4 shot kill but its ammo reduced to 12, it could have less aim assist, more recoil and highly visible bullet trails… But even then it would still not have that great of a relationship with other spawn utility weapons since it is fulfilling a similar role. Then there would also be the problem that it would be a utility weapon with a higher skill gap than the BR making it a candidate to be the primary weapon of choice in competitive play…

I don’t know, I just think if loadouts return I don’t think the weapon choices should be as restricted as many people are calling for. 4 utility starting weapons isn’t excessive, it seems fairly reasonable. I just think the DMR should be reworked to be a more balance spawning weapon and that long range combat should be much more controlled than it was in Halo 4.

13

There are 2 sides to this problem: the maps and the effective range of loadout weapons. Both must be tuned perfectly to eachother, before the game is even released.

Maps that are quite open in combination with very effective long range weapons tremendously slow down gameplay. (e.g. BTB Ragnarok in H4) The larger the map, the bigger this effect becomes because there is more emphasis on the use of long range rifles.
This can be fixed in two ways. Either create smaller, more closed-off or sectioned maps, or decrease the effectiveness of loadout weapons at long range.

For the maps, there are a lot of good examples out there. Sanctuary, The Pit, Heretic, Construct, Citadel, … All are small and easy to get around on, and feature long sight lines across the map, but also plenty of closed off sections. There is always enough cover unless you run around like an idiot. You basically have no fear to get picked on from across the map without having enough time to get to cover. As always, there is a balance that needs to be struck: maps that are very closed off with no long sightlines make precision weapons useless and that dulls down gameplay.

The weapons need to be just right. They should have high killtimes, but very difficult to get the maximum killtime from. Especially at long range. In general, the average killtime outside of the intended range should be much longer than the average killtime. This can be achieved in multiple ways. A good example is the BR from older games: The spread greatly decreases the number of bullets that hit per shot at longer ranges. Another example is Reach’s bloom, though that is a random mechanic that should be avoided. A third example is bullet travel time, where you need to lead your shot for longer ranges, though that has a poor performance in laggy conditions.

I suggest an 11 bullet, 4 shot kill BR that has a large spread in time and minimal, fixed recoil. That way, the bullets come out slower and your aim needs to be on target for a longer time. And if you want the 4 shot, you should still aim slightly below the head. Much like the LR behaves right now, except with a perfectly fixed spread. If the maps are very open by design, the BR can be nerfed to compensate, with a short bullet travel time of 1-2 frames. (compared to 3 frames in Halo 3. This is viable because of the dedicated servers and the smaller delay) It would also have a short red reticle range. This is a small but important change from H4’s BR.

The DMR would have a similar behavior as H4’s DMR, but with a slightly slower firerate and a smaller reticle. If the maps are very open, again this should be compensated by a 1-2 frame bullet travel time. The red reticle range would be longer than the BR’s.

Novel suggestion: In order to increase skillgap and add depth to the game, perhaps headshots on shielded opponents with headshot weapons should deal some bonus damage as well? That way landing only headshots with the BR could turn it into a 3-shot kill, but doing it would be very difficult and make it a rare occasion.

TL;DR: The developers should play around with the skillful mechanics for the weapons: Bullet travel time, spread over time, creating weapons that are difficult to achieve the maximum killtime with. This needs to be done in conjunction with map design; open maps require less effective long range weapons and vice versa.

14

> > I’m of the opinion that the DMR should be a midsized PW like the Conc Rifle or SAW. Make it a three shot kill but balance it with little amounts of aim assists.
> >
> > Solves a lot of problems right there.
>
> I’m a little wary of including utility power weapons on maps. All power weapon pick ups should have a healthy counter metagame with spawn weapons. Despite their power, Power weapons should also have weaknesses and risks associated with them, giving spawners a chance to defeat them. It creates a skill gap in the use of power weapons. It creates a wrong way to use power weapons. Hence why utility weapons are the favoured starting weapon in competitive play.
>
> Take the relationship with the DMR and the Sniper Rifle as an example of a healthy balanced relationship. They are both long range single shot rifles. But the Sniper Rifle is much more powerful and has a much greater range. But as a down side it has a very limited clip size, it has a slower ROF and it has much less aim assist. The descoping mechanic also temporarily removes the Snipers range advantage. This gives the Sniper a clear counter. It is extremely difficult to use accurately when under sustained fire. Allowing for suppressive fire tactics. Also there is only enough time for the Sniper to fire twice before the minimum kill time of the DMR. The Sniper Rifle is better but the DMR has a fighting chance.
>
> Then take the AR and SAW as an example of an unhealthy relationship. The SAW is a straight upgrade of the AR in every way. Superior damage per second, superior range, superior ammo capacity. There is nothing that balances the 2 weapons.
>
> If the DMR became a power weapon, it needs weaknesses, it can’t just be a straight upgrade of the BR. Similar to how it was in pre-Turbo Throwdown. But at the same time it needs to be powerful enough to be a worth while pick up and it probably shouldn’t have an inferior kill time to the BR. Maybe it could be buffed to a 4 shot kill but its ammo reduced to 12, it could have less aim assist, more recoil and highly visible bullet trails… But even then it would still not have that great of a relationship with other spawn utility weapons since it is fulfilling a similar role. Then there would also be the problem that it would be a utility weapon with a higher skill gap than the BR making it a candidate to be the primary weapon of choice in competitive play…
>
> I don’t know, I just think if loadouts return I don’t think the weapon choices should be as restricted as many people are calling for. 4 utility starting weapons isn’t excessive, it seems fairly reasonable. I just think the DMR should be reworked to be a more balance spawning weapon and that long range combat should be much more controlled than it was in Halo 4.

I am going to say a crazy thing here… I liked Reach’s DMR more, not for close range, but for long range, you had to slow your shots down, or spam the first few shots on body and wait for the final shot on the head to be extremely accurate.

H4’s DMR feels like the ZB DMR from Reach which I absolutely hated due to the trigger happy gun fights it created.

15

> I am going to say a crazy thing here… I liked Reach’s DMR more, not for close range, but for long range, you had to slow your shots down, or spam the first few shots on body and wait for the final shot on the head to be extremely accurate.
>
> H4’s DMR feels like the ZB DMR from Reach which I absolutely hated due to the trigger happy gun fights it created.

I have a good number of reasons why I didn’t like Bloom in Reach but at least Reach actually did something to balance long range combat. Bloom, descope and only 90m RRR. But I really did feel bloom detracted far too much from mid and close range strafe duels and there was definitely a significant element of luck involved. Also the 2 second + kill times bloom created were woeful, particularly with a no stopping power Sprint in the game.

I mean if the DMR had a faster ROF and the bloom worked more similar to the Magnum it would have been alright. But to be honest I prefer mechanics like recoil and projectile bullets.