The fundamental effect of sprint on map flow

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

Sprint does not belong in Halo 5. A user named K2Five made an excellent analysis on the effects of sprint in Halo.

"It pains me to know that there are people out there that don’t fully understand the effects that sprint have on the game.

It goes a lot deeper than someone sprinting away one shot and not dying, it goes a lot deeper than someone sprinting off spawn to finish you off when you were still one-shot from the last battle, and it goes a lot deeper than ‘its just copying COD’
It completely messes with scale - that is the issue. Please describe to me a perfect map for sprint, a map that would work better scaled up for sprint, instead of left normal for no sprint. Does such a thing even exist? Can a map possibly be better made for sprint and with sprint, than made for no sprint and without sprint? No, its impossible.

Geometry has to be scaled to the abilities of spartans; the jump height, how far you can strafe in 1 second, how far you can throw a grenade, a grenade explosion radius, the effective range of your starting weapon, how long it takes you to move from one piece of cover to the next, all of this stuff, is extremely important to how the game plays. Yet it is all thrown to the wayside in favor of making sprint work. Maps have to be scaled up (aka overscaled in relation to all previous factors) to account for sprint.

Gandhi has talked about this before; the lack of power positions, but he wrongfully accused the killtimes as the culprit. While slow killtimes don’t help, sprint is what really ruins power positions. I have used this example before but I will use it again:
Pink on Midship in Halo 2. That was a true power position and functioned as such, but no matter what we do we haven’t been able to replicate the power and feel of the power position in anything we have made since that game. Why is that? Its because of sprint, nothing else has fundamentally changed the game as much as sprint has since then. Currently not even top middle on dispatch rivals the power and counter-strategies (which are equally important to consider) that pink provided.
When you held pink in H2, you had effective means of gunning down your foes as they walked from the base to pink. There was a relatively long journey to make from the cover of the base, to the cover of pink. This meant that it was dangerous as you had to expose yourself for a long period of time to be able to take the tower over. What this meant for the person holding pink, is that as long as they periodically checked the walkways to pink, they were free to shoot from pink and deal damage across map.
But what happens when you add sprint? That long journey is now a quick one, you can now make it into or under pink alive even if the guy at pink was looking at you, the guy holding pink now has to constantly check the walkways to pink, instead of just periodically, which means he now cant shoot from there without the serious risk of someone backsmacking him or gunning him down from the side. He also has to have ‘internal’ battles with people sprinting at pink more often, than actually using the power position. This is why top mid of dispatch, and even pink and gold of simplex, are such clusterfucks and pale in comparison to the gameplay that pink provided in Halo 2.

The fix to this issue some say, is to scale the map up. Make those walkways to pink longer so that it is still along journey to make even with sprint. But that creates two issues:

  1. Lessens the effect of shooting from pink - if the rest of the map is further away, the power position has less presence and effect on the map because you cant do as much damage or get as many angles (imagine if pink on simplex was pushed back an extra half-map length, goodbye angles into bases)

  2. Over-punishes the attackers. If you make it so a distance is a long one for sprinters, that means it will be impossible to walk. it also means you cant freaking shoot while you push. It makes balancing any area of the map extremely difficult as it needs to be large enough so that you can track players and so that power positions are actually power positions, but not large enough that it disables attackers in such away (not to mention any up-scaling messes with the scale of all the other combat components I mentioned earlier).

And the ‘but you get slowed down when you get shot’ argument doesn’t fix ANY of these absolutely serious issues.
Remove sprint now."

2

I actually made a post on why I think sprint should stay. It all depends on personal preference. I’m all for classic gametypes with sprint disabled.

3

What if theres only sprint for BTB gametypes. And leave the competitive maps and gametypes the same as Halo 2. The problem with Halo 4 was that sprint wasnt able to be disabled and the base player speed was too slow. I do agree that sprint does not belong in small competitive maps, but for those of us that would like to play on the very large maps, sprint could come in handy.

4

You have some really good points. But I think you’re train of though is very one minded. By this I mean, that your only possible solution is eliminating sprint.

As easy as that may seem (as far as fixing the problem goes). I think sprint is a nice addition. However, maps in this game were not designed with power positions in mind, or at least it doesn’t seem like it. And I don’t think sprint is the only thing to blame for the game feeling that way.

Your midship example is a perfect one, and because of that, I’ll use it to show you what can be done. Imagine Midship, and now just making the covers between bases longer. You don’t necessarily need to scale up the whole map, just sections of it. This can be applied to many maps in Halo 4. Adrift (hallways with boxes and no outlets), Abandon (purple street with a whole bunch of trees, and beach with a bunch of rocks) heck, even Dispatch has an abundance of cover areas. Ultimately, this is what breaks that exposure you’re talking about. Imagine dispatch without yellow pillars/blocks, you’d have to make your sprint from cover to cover while someone on Ring 3 or 2 can pick you out easily, (4 shots, no problem).

There are various ways of fixing the spring issue in Halo 4, without having to eliminate sprint. 343 did a wonderful job of making beautiful and elaborate maps, but they didn’t take their time to balance them out, and test them out competitively. Sure, you can disable sprint and be done with that, but the upside to it is, you can design your maps in Halo 5 with sprint in mind. It IS possible, it just takes more tweaking and practice.

5

> You have some really good points. But I think you’re train of though is very one minded. By this I mean, that your only possible solution is eliminating sprint.

I hate to say, but yes, this is the simplest answer as it also reduces the need for larger maps. Every Halo they keep adding more and more extra items to maps, this wont change in Halo 5. Extra clutter and Sprint = poor gameplay.

It worked for 10 years without sprint, Unreal and Quake played without it for almost 20 years, I fail to see why it’s needed.

One large thing over looked by the addition of sprinting is, camping. The number of people NOT MOVING has gone up since sprint was add. Why you ask? People get tired of slowly walking around, so they sprint everyone. This causes them to die more often in 1 vs 1 because the other guy gets 1 to 2 shots first. So instead of moving around “not sprint away” they sit in areas so they don’t have to more. They let other sprint into them.

6

K2Five speaks wisdom. This is why sprint is annoying to competitive players, and more people should realise that. It is a big problem that only really gets noticeable at highly competitive play. It’s a shame that those problems get fixed last… or way too late anyways.

7

> You have some really good points. But I think you’re train of though is very one minded. By this I mean, that your only possible solution is eliminating sprint.
>
> As easy as that may seem (as far as fixing the problem goes). I think sprint is a nice addition. However, maps in this game were not designed with power positions in mind, or at least it doesn’t seem like it. And I don’t think sprint is the only thing to blame for the game feeling that way.
>
> Your midship example is a perfect one, and because of that, I’ll use it to show you what can be done. Imagine Midship, and now just making the covers between bases longer. You don’t necessarily need to scale up the whole map, just sections of it. This can be applied to many maps in Halo 4. Adrift (hallways with boxes and no outlets), Abandon (purple street with a whole bunch of trees, and beach with a bunch of rocks) heck, even Dispatch has an abundance of cover areas. Ultimately, this is what breaks that exposure you’re talking about. Imagine dispatch without yellow pillars/blocks, you’d have to make your sprint from cover to cover while someone on Ring 3 or 2 can pick you out easily, (4 shots, no problem).
>
> There are various ways of fixing the spring issue in Halo 4, without having to eliminate sprint. 343 did a wonderful job of making beautiful and elaborate maps, but they didn’t take their time to balance them out, and test them out competitively. Sure, you can disable sprint and be done with that, but the upside to it is, you can design your maps in Halo 5 with sprint in mind. It IS possible, it just takes more tweaking and practice.

I agree, sprint is not needed in every gamemode and every map. However, it does help out on larger maps and in some ways it can speed up gameplay. By the way why the hell shouldn’t my spartan be able to sprint? He is a freakin supersoldier in the future…

8

> By the way why the hell shouldn’t my spartan be able to sprint? He is a freakin supersoldier in the future…

If I had a dime for every time I heard this…

Gameplay > Canon, no matter your stance on sprint. It’s as simple as that.

9

> > You have some really good points. But I think you’re train of though is very one minded. By this I mean, that your only possible solution is eliminating sprint.
> >
> > As easy as that may seem (as far as fixing the problem goes). I think sprint is a nice addition. However, maps in this game were not designed with power positions in mind, or at least it doesn’t seem like it. And I don’t think sprint is the only thing to blame for the game feeling that way.
> >
> > Your midship example is a perfect one, and because of that, I’ll use it to show you what can be done. Imagine Midship, and now just making the covers between bases longer. You don’t necessarily need to scale up the whole map, just sections of it. This can be applied to many maps in Halo 4. Adrift (hallways with boxes and no outlets), Abandon (purple street with a whole bunch of trees, and beach with a bunch of rocks) heck, even Dispatch has an abundance of cover areas. Ultimately, this is what breaks that exposure you’re talking about. Imagine dispatch without yellow pillars/blocks, you’d have to make your sprint from cover to cover while someone on Ring 3 or 2 can pick you out easily, (4 shots, no problem).
> >
> > There are various ways of fixing the spring issue in Halo 4, without having to eliminate sprint. 343 did a wonderful job of making beautiful and elaborate maps, but they didn’t take their time to balance them out, and test them out competitively. Sure, you can disable sprint and be done with that, but the upside to it is, you can design your maps in Halo 5 with sprint in mind. It IS possible, it just takes more tweaking and practice.
>
> I agree, sprint is not needed in every gamemode and every map. However, it does help out on larger maps and in some ways it can speed up gameplay. By the way why the hell shouldn’t my spartan be able to sprint? He is a freakin supersoldier in the future…

Realism is irrelevant.

10

> I actually made a post on why I think sprint should stay. It all depends on personal preference. I’m all for classic gametypes with sprint disabled.

The problem with that is map design. Unless 343i decide to make double the usual amount of maps, there are only three options.

[list}[/li]- A: Infinity Slayer gets most if not all of the maps and Classic is left to forge maps or maps not designed for its own gameplay.

  • B: Classic gets all the maps (highly unlikely) and Infinity slayer has to deal with maps not designed for sprint, jetpack etc.

  • C: They both get one or two maps each, seriously limiting the amount of maps per playlist and the overall enjoyment of the game.[/liTst]

So it generally comes down to that. Are we going to make doubles the maps, have a heavy limitation of maps, or have a completely unfair bias in terms of one gametype or the other. Doesn’t seem like a hard decision to make, but is 343i willing to put in the effort?

11

I dont have anything against MLG players, infact i really enjoy playing Halo competitively myself, but if these MLG players got their way there would be no large maps and only maps like midship and lockout, which would make Halo very boring because a lot of ppl like variety. You can tell us to go play battlefield or cod, but why cant we give 343 a chance to make some changes that can compliment the classic Halo that we all love.
What if 343 make some arena style maps with sprint disabled and the same base player speed as halo 2 while also making large btb maps that can use sprint and other AAs.

12

> I agree, sprint is not needed in every gamemode and every map. However, it does help out on larger maps and in some ways it can speed up gameplay.

BTB is meant to be a vehicular type of game. Players on foot would typically will go to the central and cliffside hallway areas (see Avalanche, Valhalla, Sandtrap, Rat’s Nest) to fight other players on foot, while vehicles stick to the outskirt plain areas. Sprint and sprint-tuned maps encourage and enable players on foot to take on vehicles, changing the flow of gameplay completely. With sprint, you can’t stick to one area, since sprint allows the guy you just killed to rush your position.

Put simply, positioning means nothing to players on foot with sprint.

For example, having the laser or sniper behind the Valhalla Pelican was a strategic, solid position. Now you just sprint-rush up to it and nade it to your heart’s content. If there was no sprint on Exile, having the Beam Rifle at Sticky Det spawn would be another such tactical position.

So yes, even BTB is affected by sprint, not just 4v4.

13

> > I actually made a post on why I think sprint should stay. It all depends on personal preference. I’m all for classic gametypes with sprint disabled.
>
> The problem with that is map design. Unless 343i decide to make double the usual amount of maps, there are only three options.
>
> [list}[/li]1. A: Infinity Slayer gets most if not all of the maps and Classic is left to forge maps or maps not designed for its own gameplay.
>
> 1. B: Classic gets all the maps (highly unlikely) and Infinity slayer has to deal with maps not designed for sprint, jetpack etc.
>
> 1. C: They both get one or two maps each, seriously limiting the amount of maps per playlist and the overall enjoyment of the game.[/liTst]
>
> So it generally comes down to that. Are we going to make doubles the maps, have a heavy limitation of maps, or have a completely unfair bias in terms of one gametype or the other. Doesn’t seem like a hard decision to make, but is 343i willing to put in the effort?
>
>
[/quote]
There is a fourth option:
>
> [/li]- D: Sprint is removed, and both Traditional/Infinity use the same maps for their respective styles of gameplay.
>
> I understand it may not be the ideal option, but it is the best scenario I can offer at the present time.
>
> Of course, this obviously operates opposite to halojunky117G’s position of sprint staying in the game.

14

Make it an option, and don’t make maps to compensate for it. Let sprint remain as an option so it could be turned into an advantage. Gametypes have used sprint(no I won’t go find them) in order to enhance the experience of what was being played.

Yes to removing it form online play, no to removing it.

15

> By the way why the hell shouldn’t my spartan be able to sprint? He is a freakin supersoldier in the future…

Why the hell can’t my Spartan shoot when he is Sprinting? He is a freakin supersoldier in the future…

16

> > I agree, sprint is not needed in every gamemode and every map. However, it does help out on larger maps and in some ways it can speed up gameplay.
>
> BTB is meant to be a vehicular type of game. Players on foot would typically will go to the central and cliffside hallway areas (see Avalanche, Valhalla, Sandtrap, Rat’s Nest) to fight other players on foot, while vehicles stick to the outskirt plain areas. Sprint and sprint-tuned maps encourage and enable players on foot to take on vehicles, changing the flow of gameplay completely. With sprint, you can’t stick to one area, since sprint allows the guy you just killed to rush your position.
>
> Put simply, positioning means nothing to players on foot with sprint.
>
> For example, having the laser or sniper behind the Valhalla Pelican was a strategic, solid position. Now you just sprint-rush up to it and nade it to your heart’s content. If there was no sprint on Exile, having the Beam Rifle at Sticky Det spawn would be another such tactical position.
>
> So yes, even BTB is affected by sprint, not just 4v4.

Yes, thank you. The flow of BTB was just fine in the past even without sprint.

Moderately downsizing the astronomically-sized large maps in Halo 4 to a size more suited to having no sprint (Halo CE-3) will essentially make any issues with map travel times negligent. It will also encourage more vehicle play in Big-Team games.

17

> I hate to say, but yes, this is the simplest answer as it also reduces the need for larger maps. Every Halo they keep adding more and more extra items to maps, this wont change in Halo 5. Extra clutter and Sprint = poor gameplay.
>
> It worked for 10 years without sprint, Unreal and Quake played without it for almost 20 years, I fail to see why it’s needed.
>
> One large thing over looked by the addition of sprinting is, camping. The number of people NOT MOVING has gone up since sprint was add. Why you ask? People get tired of slowly walking around, so they sprint everyone. This causes them to die more often in 1 vs 1 because the other guy gets 1 to 2 shots first. So instead of moving around “not sprint away” they sit in areas so they don’t have to more. They let other sprint into them.

I’ve never noticed a problem with clutter. Don’t know what you’re talking about. I made a special edition of Guardian and I put all the Halo 3 weapons and items I could in there. And you know what happened? It played incredibly well.

Yes, and it can work with sprint as well. And I’m glad you brought up Unreal because I know UT games like the back of my hand. Quake actually has FASTER movement than Halo 4 due to the increased player speed and UT has faster speed AND dodging, which makes things INCREDIBLY fast paced. And they mostly have the same size maps that would you find in Halo 4.

And for camping, well people are just adjusting to the gameplay of Halo 4. This camping problem you say is there can be fought in a myriad of ways. Prom Night Vision comes right to mind. Also, you could, you know, not sprint everywhere. The maps in Team Slayer aren’t that big.

18

At this point we should all be hoping they accommodate gametypes and maps to sprint. I really doubt sprint is going to get sacked. It’s here to stay, and Halo 5 will be no exception.

Ultimately, Halo 4’s game play is flawed by a couple of things, and in my honest opinion, sprinting is not at the top of that list (doesn’t mean it’s not important). Random ordnance and AAs like Jet Packs and Camo are far more detrimental to game play than sprint is. This is my opinion of course, but I feel it’s a logical one.

19

> Yes, and it can work with sprint as well. And I’m glad you brought up Unreal because I know UT games like the back of my hand. Quake actually has FASTER movement than Halo 4 due to the increased player speed and UT has faster speed AND dodging, which makes things INCREDIBLY fast paced. And they mostly have the same size maps that would you find in Halo 4.

Erm, I think the point he was making is that increasing based movement speed is better than Sprint.

Whilst I do think sprint could work with some design changes I do think Sprint was a pointless addition that crated more problems than it fixed.

20

> By the way why the hell shouldn’t my spartan be able to sprint? He is a freakin supersoldier in the future…

Because Master Chief can flip a Tank but he runs out of breath and has to jog every five seconds.

Game-play always comes first in my book, it is what Halo is built on after all.