The Evolution of Forge.

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

I apologize in advance, but this is a pretty long post. TL;DR at the bottom.

So it’s fairly evident from talk around the community that some changes need to be made to forge. We’re still using relatively the same editor we were running in 2010, and while it works great for a basic map making tool, it’s very limited in it’s aesthetic capabilities. This is of course due in part to the fact that the 360 wasn’t very powerful, and as such even low textured pieces in high abundance could make for some bad framerate. However now that we’ve got a stronger system, it’s probably time to step up our game a bit.

The building tools.

I’d like to start off and say that, while limiting, the forge pieces we have aren’t a bad idea. They work fairly effectively, and while they do limit capabilities from time to time, they are for the most part effective. What I’d like to see is a greater array of textures and scenery pieces. One of the biggest complaints I see about forge maps is that they simply look terrible. You feel like you’re fighting in an area made of poorly structured lego, and while not all maps are like this, many and most are. Introducing a variety of scenery pieces (such as trees, urban pieces, covenant pieces etc) and more textures for the blocks would at least help us alleviate this problem so that we could make more visually appealing maps. Hopefully this wouldn’t be overly taxing on the systems power.

If possible, I’d also like to see a way to set which parts of a block are going to be visible. At least this way we can stop the game from rendering sides of blocks that are going to go completely unseen. Perhaps make this in the shape of an adjustable hill zone of some kind? Hopefully this would serve to put less of a strain on the system… Probably not, but I’m hopeful.

Anyway, with the block textures should come weather effects. I know you had to see this coming, but being able to set the weather would be HUGE for giving the map some setting and some life. I know this point has been made to death so I’ll graze over it with that, and move on to my next one.

Lighting (still unsure about this one).

One of the best things Halo 4 introduced to the game was dynamic lighting. It made the map look a lot more realistic, and of course aided theme a bit in that way. One of the problems with it though, was that it made indoor maps a pain to make. You either had to suffer a dark interior, or use some of your 4 lights to give it a little bit of ambiance. Not fun from a forging perspective, especially if you wanted to make an entirely indoor map. It just tended to look really, really bad.

So my suggestion then would be to introduce “Light zones”. Like trait zones, these would be dynamic boxes that could be resized to whatever space you want to put them in to aid with lighting. Preferably there wouldn’t be a “Point” of light so to speak, but it would simply set how light or dark a room would appear (think the difference between blue room and blue hall on guardian). With this, being able to set those dominion lights to actually give off light would be beneficial for theme, although not entirely necessary.

Just another suggestion to add on here would be having “fog” settings in this zone as well, so we could make a foggy bottom hallway sort of thing, or a scientific coldroom of sorts. Themed stuff.

Now, I understand that this could potentially be very taxing on the system, which is why I said I’m not sure about it yet.

Dynamic Blocks/Interactive Settings

The last suggestion I want to add is interactive enviroments. Now, every game the community has come up with some convoluted way (usually involving shield doors, ghost flipping and high explosives) to create moving doors and elevators. While that’s great, more often than not they’re are just not cost effective or reliable. So the ability to set a block to move on it’s own in a certain direction (could set velocity, distance x, distance y and distance z perhaps?) would be incredibly beneficial for all sorts of maps and designs.

Even just the ability to set doors, or have a “Parent” button attached to a “Child” light bridge (just a possible system to use) would be so useful to have. Competitive, Minigame, Puzzle, Infection, you name it, this would be so helpful for map building in so many ways. Even just the ability to set a floating, dynamic platform (think the Midship bridge or the Epitaph rocket spawn) would be huge.

So those are my suggestions for forge, and how I’d like to see it evolve. I’m hoping this wouldn’t be overly hard on the system, although I could definitely see that it may not be possible. The xbox one is powerful of course, but it isn’t magic, and this may be a lot to ask.

I apologize, I know these points have been made numerous times but I felt I should bring them up again. They never seem to get much attention.

TL;DR: More blocks, block textures, and aesthetic pieces. New weather themes and settings. New lighting zones for indoor lighting. Interactive and/or dynamic blocks.

And to those who I know are going to say “Why not just add a map editor” (you know why you are), while I agree with you, it would more than likely be too complicated for the general community, and I just don’t see them replacing forge any time in the near future. This is simply a suggestion for if we are indeed keeping forge for the moment, otherwise I entirely agree with you.

Thanks for reading.

2

On these big well thought out threads on topics I already agree with all I can say is great read I fully support this idea 10/10 and I also want to state you are right a full map editor would prob not have ease of access as forge does.

3

At first I think that is a great list of (in my opinion) doable and appreciated suggestions.

Forge does indeed need aesthetical improvements.
You can create an amazing map in regards to gameplay but its awful front caused by the monotonous, dull and heavily limited color and scenery pallett is a direct downgrade and killjoy because the maps heavily lack atmosphere and visual appeal.
So, a varied pallett of textures for the blocks (colors and materials and perhaps even condition) as well as a varied selection of scenery pieces would definitely be appreciated.

Dynamic Lightning was a welcomed addition but unfortunately it only works with direct exposure but not with indirect exposure. I hope that can be improved.
Besides, what I think would be nice as well is when you would be able to freely position the main source of light for your map.
Electric lightning (primarily for “windowless” rooms) is something I would also like to see. Preferably with a selection of effects (bright, dimmed, flickering etc.)

To your last point about interactive pieces I haven’t much too add except: I’ve been hoping for that since Reach.

A major point that I personally would like to see getting improved is “tools of assistance”.
A controller is already an overly complicated, time consuming and annoying equipment to design proper maps why I would hope for some tools that assist you in regards to general positioning of pieces as well as finding the proper proportions and scales via some standard measures/ guidelines.
I think it would make things way more easier and more user-friendly as well as it would help to increase the constructional quality of your map

I.e:
-a tool that allows you to move entire parts of your map at once (i.e. in case it isn’t placed in the desired location)

-Spartan models/guidelines: body height (standing/crouched), jump height/range, movement, etc.

-weapon models/guidelines: effective ranges (scoped/un-scoped), blast radius, etc.

4

> You can create an amazing maps in regards to gameplay but its awful front caused by the monotonous, dull and heavily limited color and scenery pallett is a direct downgrade and killjoy because the maps heavily lack atmosphere and visual appeal.

Yup. And while many forgers have done their best to create aesthetically pleasing maps that maintain fantastic gameplay (I’ve seen it done maybe a handful of times at best) it’s very very difficult to do, due to the lack of power on the 360 (framerate lag everywhere) and the general lack of pieces to work with.

I can understand why the textures were as bad as they were, but it definitely can and should be improved for the xbox one.

> Dynamic Lightning was a welcomed addition but unfortunately it only works with direct exposure but not with indirect exposure. I hope that can be improved.
> Besides, what I think would be nice as well is when you would be able to freely position the main source of light for your map.
> Electric lightning (primarily for “windowless” rooms) is something I would also like to see. Preferably with a selection of effects (bright, dimmed, flickering etc.)

All of this would be very handy. I would say the “electric” lighting should be one of the biggest focuses, simply because the majority of themes for maps involve indoor locations. Positioning the main light source would also be handy for setting the theme.

> A major point that I personally would like to see getting improved is “tools of assistance”.
>
> I.e:
> -a tool that allows you to move entire parts of your map at once (i.e. in case it isn’t placed in the desired location)
>
> -Spartan models/guidelines: body height (standing/crouched), jump height/range, movement, etc.
>
> -weapon models/guidelines: effective ranges (scoped/un-scoped), blast radius, etc.

To add on to that first one, the ability to save that and import it into other maps would also be massively beneficial. I can’t list the number of times I started a map on one Halo 4 pallet only to decide it would work better on the next (whether it was due to framerate issues or general theme).

Spartan models would be interesting, but I don’t see them as necessary (personally). I mean, lighting generation aside, it doesn’t exactly take long to jump out of forge mode and measure it yourself. Useful? Perhaps, but definitely not a must.

Weapon guides would be fantastic. Far easier than having to wait until testing to effectively gauge the range that the lines of sight and whatnot need to be for combat. I’m curious as to how they’d put it in though. Any suggestions on that one?

5

> To add on to that first one, the ability to save that and import it into other maps would also be massively beneficial. I can’t list the number of times I started a map on one Halo 4 pallet only to decide it would work better on the next (whether it was due to framerate issues or general theme).

I fully agree. That would be just great. I’ve experienced these exact moments several times as well.

> Spartan models would be interesting, but I don’t see them as necessary (personally). I mean, lighting generation aside, it doesn’t exactly take long to jump out of forge mode and measure it yourself. Useful? Perhaps, but definitely not a must.

That you have to measure it yourself is what personally bothers me though.
It’s like you try to cut a line of exact 10 cm only with visual judgement and then measure it and in case it isn’t 10 cm you have to repeat that until it fits.
Why not simply using a ruler to save time and avoid unnecessary work. :slight_smile:

> Weapon guides would be fantastic. Far easier than having to wait until testing to effectively gauge the range that the lines of sight and whatnot need to be for combat. I’m curious as to how they’d put it in though. Any suggestions on that one?

I would handle it like the regular pieces.

I.e:
you select weapon guides/models. Select BR unscoped. And then you would have a BR model with a (colored) visible straight line from its barrel to the exact point where its (unscoped) red redicule range ends. And that model would be able to freely rotate and able to get placed in the position you currently need it to be(just like every other forge piece).

A blast radius could be portrayed as a ball.

That is what I’ve had in mind when I was suggesting the idea.

6

My problem with Forge (and it’s my problem because of the way I am) is that just when a map really starts to take shape I run out of assets or use up my budget. I know I should just exercise some restraint, but it does seem to me that we don’t get enough stuff to work with, especially with large maps like Forge Island.

I tried to make a 5 base Dominion map on Forge Island but there weren’t enough Dominion specific pieces to make each base a real base, and the Dominion stuff was really expensive, budget-wise.

There is obviously a technical, memory, disk space allocation reason for this. I would hope either the Xbox One will allow for more space, or somehow everything gets done in the cloud.

I think this is also why we never got the weather effects we always wanted.

7

> That you have to measure it yourself is what personally bothers me though.
> It’s like you try to cut a line of exact 10 cm only with visual judgement and then measure it and in case it isn’t 10 cm you have to repeat that until it fits.
> Why not simply using a ruler to save time and avoid unnecessary work. :slight_smile:

True, although personally I haven’t really had that problem :P. A ruler I can see working though, so long as it wasn’t totally intrusive.

> I would handle it like the regular pieces.
>
> I.e:
> you select weapon guides/models. Select BR unscoped. And then you would have a BR model with a (colored) visible straight line from its barrel to the exact point where its (unscoped) red redicule range ends. And that model would be able to freely rotate and able to get placed in the position you currently need it to be(just like every other forge piece).
>
> A blast radius could be portrayed as a ball.
>
> That is what I’ve had in mind when I was suggesting the idea.

One thing that might be easier is simply having the weapons do that by default (in forge that is). Just so long as it isn’t annoying as all heck and can be disabled either in forge settings (and later enabled on the weapon itself should you choose) I can’t see it being much of a problem.

Would save time for the devs at least, not having to put in an extra menu.

> My problem with Forge (and it’s my problem because of the way I am) is that just when a map really starts to take shape I run out of assets or use up my budget. I know I should just exercise some restraint, but it does seem to me that we don’t get enough stuff to work with, especially with large maps like Forge Island.

Yeah that was always a problem. Simply running out of pieces was the bane of my forging existence, especially when you only get something like 50 walls or rocks. Makes certain map styles really challenging to create. Heck, you can end up running out of pieces on a guardian sized map without even trying, let alone proper 4v4 maps.

> There is obviously a technical, memory, disk space allocation reason for this. I would hope either the Xbox One will allow for more space, or somehow everything gets done in the cloud.
>
> I think this is also why we never got the weather effects we always wanted.

I definitely hope we have more to work with even if it’s at the cost of some of the above listed features. Hopefully the power of the Xbox One can provide this.

8

> If possible, I’d also like to see a way to set which parts of a block are going to be visible. At least this way we can stop the game from rendering sides of blocks that are going to go completely unseen.

Graphics engines do this automatically.

As I understand it, engines compute where on the screen a polygon is, but they don’t commit to rendering the textures and shaders until they’re sure that the polygon isn’t being covered up by other objects.

> Anyway, with the block textures should come weather effects. I know you had to see this coming, but being able to set the weather would be HUGE for giving the map some setting and some life. I know this point has been made to death so I’ll graze over it with that, and move on to my next one.

A good, cheap way to do this would be to let Forgers limit an FX orb to an area of effect, and offer an “undo” orb that can undo the effects of other orbs.

If they do that, then we can place a rain FX orb on a map, and then place “undo” orbs indoors to keep it from raining inside. That way, the game engine doesn’t have to do collision/bounds checking to keep rain from falling on the inside of the map. It also gives Forgers greater control, which can be useful in some cases (e.g. using rain to simulate a leaky ceiling – not possible if the engine automatically determines where rain can and can’t fall).

> And to those who I know are going to say “Why not just add a map editor” (you know why you are), while I agree with you, it would more than likely be too complicated for the general community, and I just don’t see them replacing forge any time in the near future.

This. Forge is ideal for Halo because it’s fast and intuitive, which is great for rapidly building and prototyping ideas. If you have a good idea, you can build it in Forge without having to spend half a year learning how to use five different devtools effectively.

9

> My problem with Forge (and it’s my problem because of the way I am) is that just when a map really starts to take shape I run out of assets or use up my budget. I know I should just exercise some restraint, but it does seem to me that we don’t get enough stuff to work with, especially with large maps like Forge Island.

The budget system needs to go.

As it stands, there are currently three limits on how many objects you can place: the global object limit (roughly 700 objects), the per-category limits, and the budget system. Those last two limits are completely arbitrary. They demonstrably fail to prevent us from building maps that perform poorly. In some cases, they can even make performance worse, by forcing Forgers to use inefficient objects after reaching the limits on efficient ones.

In the majority of cases, the global object limit is the only limit we need. The exceptions are things like lights (rendering perf) and vehicles (physics perf). So why bother keeping the unnecessary limits?

10

> > I would handle it like the regular pieces.
> >
> > I.e:
> > you select weapon guides/models. Select BR unscoped. And then you would have a BR model with a (colored) visible straight line from its barrel to the exact point where its (unscoped) red redicule range ends. And that model would be able to freely rotate and able to get placed in the position you currently need it to be(just like every other forge piece).
> >
> > A blast radius could be portrayed as a ball.
> >
> > That is what I’ve had in mind when I was suggesting the idea.
>
> One thing that might be easier is simply having the weapons do that by default (in forge that is). Just so long as it isn’t annoying as all heck and can be disabled either in forge settings (and later enabled on the weapon itself should you choose) I can’t see it being much of a problem.
>
> Would save time for the devs at least, not having to put in an extra menu.

Yes, that is likely more advisable. :slight_smile:

In addition to the point of blocks and their texture/appearance.

Personally, I would prefer simplicity for the default block or piece.
Slick edges, no ornaments and a consistent grey but then fully customizable with the color/texture/material pallett.

I think maps could look even quite appealing with such default pieces (all in grey but slick as hell :P) and not so terrible like in Reach and especially 4 where you are forced to build maps with overly ornamented and bumpy blocks and pieces.

11

I love each and every idea in this thread. I’d also like to ask however (on a more macabre note) that we get corpses and wreckage pieces as set pieces for maps. Corpses for immersion in infection. (Kind of a wtf moment when there is an abandoned shotgun on the floor.) And wreckage so we don’t spend $3000 building a perfect pelican.

12

Maybe we could design our own textures via the cloud, ms paint or whatever…and then add the object in the game?
Perhaps we could have a custom objects list where we could save all of our favourite creations to use later?
Maybe a wider range for timed events would also be appreciated.
The ability to change 3rd person to 1st person or vice versa would also be great.
Maybe we might be able to designate simple enemy Ais which could serve a ‘mob’ approach?
Explosion effects on certain objects at a designated time would also be great!

All the ideas which you posted would be greatly appreciated as well!

13

> Maybe we could design our own textures via the cloud, ms paint or whatever…and then add the object in the game?

That could be useful, albeit a bit difficult to pull off. Perhaps with this the devs could also release “Texture Packs” (hopefully for free, but as a forger I wouldn’t mind paying for them) for players to use as time goes on. One possible way of making this work is making it an automatic download (with the weakly updates) so that everyone could play with the textures, but forgers would have to pay to use them…

Not sure yet, and hopefully they wouldn’t be too expensive.

> Maybe a wider range for timed events would also be appreciated.

So, similar to the train on the one Halo 2 map? That could be interesting.

> The ability to change 3rd person to 1st person or vice versa would also be great.

That seems like something for custom options as opposed to Forge, but it’s a good idea none-the-less.

> Maybe we might be able to designate simple enemy Ais which could serve a ‘mob’ approach?

I was tempted to put this or something similar in the original post, but I think this may be more difficult to pull off than the other suggestions. AI tend not to be very intelligent, and while you can make it possible for them to navigate maps on their own (without having to make “AI paths”) it would probably take up a lot of time. While it would be fun, I don’t think it’s entirely necessary, at least not yet.