BAS1STA has uploaded a spreadsheet about supply production. However, the values are wrong. For example 1 x heavy supply pad produces 330 supplies/min. BAS1STA’s formula says only 292.5. Also 1 x normal + 1 x heavy produces 510. BAS1STA’s formula says only 468. All the values in the spreadsheet are possibly wrong.
The supply production has remained unchanged from the 2009. At least Disquette has a post with similar results that I do. However dividing supply pads to different bases does not affect supply production (as he claims).
Following values are measured supply production (supplies per minute):
** 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7**
0 0 330 600 825 1005 1160 1300 1425
1 235 510 740 885 1100 1240 1365
2 430 660 860 1025 1180 1310
3 580 790 960 1120 1250
4 720 900 1050 1200
5 830 1000 1135
6 930 1070
7 1020 1690
The forerunner supply elevator produces 300 supplies per minute (and does not affect to other production).
Values can be used to calculate how many normals/heavys/elevators one needs to constantly pump some units. For example scorpion building time is 36 s (cost 500) and gremlin build time is 32 s (cost 200). It yields 60 / 36 x 500 + 60 / 32 x 200 = 1208. One needs for example 4 x normal + 1 x heavy + 1 x elevator to continuously pump both units.
If anyone cares I can add the missing supply pad combinations to the list.
1 non heavy produces 240 a minute? Seems too high. I never calculated it but it seems to me heavys produce twice as much as non upgraded pads or warehouses.
2 unupgraded should make 480 then. You have less. I don’t believe in the more pads u make the less they make. I could be wrong but I doubt it. Guess ill have to check it. Results soon.
Production does decrease with more pads. I don’t understand the logic in this tho. Why should production decrease from pads when in greater numbers?
I believe that it would limit strategic options to have linear supply production. Scaling down the production makes it more difficult to say - for example - is the second base or another supply pad a good idea.
Are these your own estimations? What method did you use to calculate it?
Skirmish settings:
Type : 1v1
Mode : Standard
Map : Chasm
A.I. : normal
Leader : Cutter
Opponent : Anders
I build all the combinations and checked how much each produces supplies in 2 minutes. Then I divided the value by 2. I believe it is accurate enough (± 10 supplies per minute).
While doing the measurement I also noticed that selling a supply pad is a bad idea (see my previous post).
I also used the same method to measure all the unit build times and research times.
These numbers may be close but still wrong. There is something called diminishing returns. You can’t just set a clock and see how many supplies you get in 2 minutes and divide by 2. Or base it off how much you can produce, that’s just silly.
You need to use this formula created by Timitron, the games developer.
S = supply rate of base building, N = number of supply pads total, Sm = modified supply rate for a warehouse or supply pad
Sm = (S * 1.5) / (((N / (13)) + 1)
Base supply rate (S) is 2.5 for a normal supply pad/ warehouse.
Base supply rate (S) is 3.5 for a heavy supply pad/ warehouse. Which is 40% better.
example.
Heavy: 4 * (3.5 * 1.5) / ((5/13)+1) = 15.1668/sec
Regular: 1 * (2.5 * 1.5) / ((5/13)+1) = 2.7084/sec
Total: 17.8752
Total per minute: 17.8752*60=1072.51
The number of pads is the TOTAL number of pads, so you have to calculate what your normal and heavies are returning separately and add them to get your total
Also, using a supply elevator vets you the return of a heavy supply pad but is not affected by diminishing returns.
Mitch’s spreadsheet is correct as it uses this formula.
Here is the original thread that Timitron posted in from www.halowars.com if you are interested in seeing it for yourself.
Halo - Official Site (en)
EDIT: I Looked at your previous post and saw bb already gave you the formula and you stumbled upon a resource glitch. Sorry for reposting.
From that thread it sounds like if you delete a pad it doesnt return resources but affects the formula still. Kinda like the cryo glitch? Is this right? I dont want to necro the previous thread.
Why the measurement is silly? That is what is real and can be verified. O.o
Example 1 : 1 x heavy supply pad
Heavy: 1 * (3.5 * 1.5) / ((1/13)+1) = 4.8750/sec
Regular: 0 * (2.5 * 1.5) / ((1/13)+1) = 0.0000/sec
Total: 4.8750
Total per minute: 4.8750*60=292.5
It is not even near the real value which is about 330.
Example 2 : 2 x regular supply pad
Heavy: 0 * (3.5 * 1.5) / ((2/13)+1) = 0.0000/sec
Regular: 2 * (2.5 * 1.5) / ((2/13)+1) = 6.5000/sec
Total: 3.2500
Total per minute: 6.5000*60=390
It is not even near the real value which is about 430.
Example 3 : 2 x heavy supply pad + 1 x regular supply pad
Heavy: 2 * (3.5 * 1.5) / ((3/13)+1) = 8.53125/sec
Regular: 1 * (2.5 * 1.5) / ((3/13)+1) = 3.046875/sec
Total: 11.578125
Total per minute: 11.578125*60=694.6875
It is not even near the real value which is about 740.
Example 4 : 4 x heavy supply pad + 1 x regular supply pad
Heavy: 4 * (3.5 * 1.5) / ((5/13)+1) = 15.1668/sec
Regular: 1 * (2.5 * 1.5) / ((5/13)+1) = 2.7084/sec
Total: 17.8752
Total per minute: 17.8752*60=1072.51
It is not even near the real value which is about 1100.
It is obvious that Timotron’s formula is wrong. It is different thing to have a formula in the code and in the notes.
> Why the measurement is silly? That is what is real and can be verified. O.o
>
>
>
> Example 4 : 4 x heavy supply pad + 1 x regular supply pad
>
> Heavy: 4 * (3.5 * 1.5) / ((5/13)+1) = 15.1668/sec
> Regular: 1 * (2.5 * 1.5) / ((5/13)+1) = 2.7084/sec
> Total: 17.8752
> Total per minute: 17.8752*60=1072.51
>
>
> It is not even near the real value which is about 1100.
>
> It is obvious that Timotron’s formula is wrong. It is different thing to have a formula in the code and in the notes.
so you are saying that 28 res a minute difference isnt even close? sounds like less than a half a res a sec discrepancie. Which is more likely. your observations of animations in the game, Or the formula the guy who made the game designed? Ill trust the formula rather that you thanks. no offense
I meant by “not even near” that measurement error does not explain the difference. 28 supplies is small amount when production is about 1100 supplies/minute. However the difference is more significant in the beginning where production is low.
I know that some of the best players do not know even approximately how much supply pads are producing. They just play and win. So… it is not so important issue anyway.
My microing is so bad that I wanted to check how I could benefit from macroing. That’s why I measured supply production and unit build/training times.
However, when I saw the difference to BAS1STA’s values (he obviously used the same formula as you and everyone else) I decided to post my notifications here.
Is the difference significant? I do not know. I do know that my values are closer the real values than the ones the flawed formula gives.
Lol, seriously? the formula works fine. Have you heard of human error, syntax error, or measuring error? I think not. You were probably sitting in front of your screen with a stopwatch for two minutes. This does not account for:
a. lag between xbox and tv
b. any possible reflex errors in your hand.
c. misreading or mistiming the stopwatch.
d. not enough trials
There’s probably more possibilities, not off the top of my head though.
I’ve done my own testing, which seems to correlate well with the formula. Furthermore, the variation in your data from the given formula is easily explained through sampling variance and the errors I discussed earlier. My brother and I had played a game where he had 11 bases, and I decided to time his supplies, and he was getting ~1200 per minute (was a VERY rough calculation, so don’t hold me to it) and when he upgraded like 30 supply pads there was no easily discernible increase.
DISCLAIMER: My numbers are a very rough estimate - my methods were not advanced or precise enough to be very conclusive, but they seem to support the previous formula.
Furthermore, even IF you measured 330, you may have hit the stopwatch start to late and the stopwatch stop to early. A difference of 37.5 between your data and the formula suggests a 10-11% difference in numbers, which, over the course of a minute is a mere six or seven seconds, and over two minutes is about twelve seconds. Clicking the stopwatch at the wrong time could easily account for at least 3 seconds, but more likely 5 seconds or more, and your reflex error could account for 1-2 seconds. Oh, and the Xbox isn’t perfect. It is also important to consider that the formula is also a general approximation for the players - it may be slightly different in the coding. When you’ve read the coding, it’s harder to make errors - that is to say, the guy who saw exactly how supply pads generate supply probably has a more accurate idea on it than someone who sat in front of their xbox with a stopwatch and a calculator.
Thanks,
Mike
If you do not believe measure it by yourself. You can build an 1 heavy supply pad and wait for 10 minutes. You will notice that 330 is pretty accurate value. There is no way that “measurement error” could be about 40 supplies per minute (in 10 minutes it would mean that you do not differ the values 2935 vs 3300).
It is funny how much you guys believe to the formula. I am a programmer myself. I have also taught statistics in University. I am very well aware of “human” and “measurement” error. I am also very aware that not every formula from note end up to actual code. Also programs are maintained and things fixed/adjusted/modified. Maybe someone has balanced something and changed the formula. O.o
Maybe this whole issue is insignificant. Still it is quite harsh to claim that the result of the measurement is “silly” or “wrong”. It is not.
P.S. There is a timer in the game (no need for stopwatch).
I might have some figures of my own that i recorded before the formula was posted. But people should trash sadstone’s work, especially if they’re not giving any opposing evidence of their own. It is completely possible that the formula was an earlier version that was fine tuned to fit better with the rest of the game (easier to adjust coefficients than the number of buildings on a base or the supplies to build a wardhog).
I trust his methods but I would be even more convinced if you redid it with 5 or 10 minute lengths.
> I trust his methods but I would be even more convinced if you redid it with 5 or 10 minute lengths.
Actually I did measure that 1 x heavy with 10 minute time. The result was still 330 supplies/minute.
Also the guy I referred in the opening post did it with 5 minutes. The result was 328.8 supplies/minute.
You don’t even have to set up a dedicated timed test to know that the equation is wrong. Its common knowledge that you need about 8 heavy supply pads to fully double pump tanks. That’s 1000 resources/35 seconds. According to the equation and Mitch’s table, you need over nine to have enough to fully double pump. I believe the constants (the 2.5 or 13 probably) in the equation were tweaked to decrease the speed of the game or whatever to the developers liking, and the moderator gave an old formula accidentally.
Also Fun fact: according to the equation, at about 40 heavy supply pads, adding another supply pad and not upgrading it slightly decreases your total income. =)
Correct (difference max +/- 10) supply rates for one base (normals + heavys = max 7) and value also for 7 x normal + 7 x heavy. Amount of normals increase downwards and amount of heavies increase rightwards.
** 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7**
0 0 330 600 825 1005 1160 1300 1425
1 235 510 740 885 1100 1240 1365
2 430 660 860 1025 1180 1310
3 580 790 960 1120 1250
4 720 900 1050 1200
5 830 1000 1135
6 930 1070
7 1020 1690
Holy -Yoink-! BAS1STA MADE AN INCORRECT STATEMENT? SOMEBODY CALL FOX NEWS!.. You know he has roughly 200 videos full of incorrect information on his youtube page right? You would need superhuman patience to correct everything wrong he says, so I wouldn’t suggest trying. The last player to attempt to correct all of BAS1STA’s errors was Justin, and nobody has seen him for months. RIP his little brain just couldn’t handle it anymore.
You should check the Halo Wars Build Order Program thread. I have been modeling Halo Wars engine for that program. That is why I wanted to find correct values for that.
P.S. I love BAS1STA’s videos and appreciate the effort he puts to Halo Wars
I finally found the correct equation for supply production. It is:
Sn = 258.0 x (9 / (N + H + 9))
Sh = 361.2 x (9 / (N + H + 9))
Sn = supplies produced by single normal supply pad
Sh = supplies produced by single heavy supply pad
N = count of normal supply pads
H = count of heavy supply pads
Note: 258 = 60 x 4.3 and 361.2 = 1.4 x 258
> Holy Yoink!! BAS1STA MADE AN INCORRECT STATEMENT? SOMEBODY CALL FOX NEWS!.. You know he has roughly 200 videos full of incorrect information on his youtube page right? You would need superhuman patience to correct everything wrong he says, so I wouldn’t suggest trying. The last player to attempt to correct all of BAS1STA’s errors was Justin, and nobody has seen him for months. RIP his little brain just couldn’t handle it anymore.
It’s not mitch’s own statement, it was by an Ensemble/Robot Employee, so it was assumed to be correct by everyone on the halowars.com forums.
It looks like things are about the same. I looked at the heavies only, and it seems that they actually produce more with few pads, but have more diminishing returns than the original formula?