STATE OF THE GAME: REACH

Games Other Halo
1

State
Of
The
Game

With your ever-annoying host: Drowsy Demon

> Topics of discussion:
> #1: Variety and the detrimental affects on balance it can create.
> #2: Headshot damage bonuses and some other musings.
>
>
> Prompts:
>
> Paul Edgewood GFW Interview

I have tried this thread before. Multiple times, in fact, yet it seems fate, God, or whatever deity you deign worthy of your belief is adamantly set against my repeated attempts to resurrect this idea, for it seems after one hour all interest in the [civilized] debates I try to hold die out. So instead, I bring this back as a sort of informal look into my viewpoint of elements of gameplay in Multiplayer Matchmaking, and how they tie into balance, as well as the idea of “competitive play” and what “Halo gameplay” really is.

For those of you who skimmed the first sentence of the above paragraph and are now desperately looking for a “too long didn’t read” tag, I’ll try to simplify my goal as much as possible:

I rant about completely theoretical nonsense and you, [the community], either agree with me or point out all my logic fallacies and stupid arguments, before starting a civilized discussion. Or not. Your choice.

When I post my rants and prompts, as well as what the subject of said rants will be on, is completely at my discretion. I could go for two months without so much as a peep at this thread, or I could upload a bunch of posts consecutively every week. I also will jump subjects a lot, so if you’re ADHD you might grow to like this thread.

So, without further ado, I give you my first discussion prompt (Skip down to my next post):

Further notes/trivia which will entice you for endless hours of enjoyment:

-The date-stamp informs the reader of when the discussion prompt was written, not when the rant was actually finished.

-I’m thinking about duplicating this thread in the MLG and Bungie forums. Feel free to give advice.

-Yes, I do take this seriously and I ask you to do the same. Attempts to troll, flame, or derail this thread will be met with the full force of the Waypoint Forums Censorship Force.

-If I have a lot of discussion material to upload, I try to stick to a 24 hour window in-between posts to keep people from feeling overwhelmed.

-A final note: Please refrain from posting until you are certain that I have uploaded all my material. Some of it is quite lengthy (not really, but it is according to the word limit the Waypoint forum uses) and can be spread out over a couple posts.

2

Date-stamp: Friday, September 02, 2011

History of Edits: One editor’s note. Some sentences changed slightly to reflect Title Update information recently revealed by 343 Industries. Any further edits will be marked as formatting, grammar, or spelling edits.

Topic: Variety and the detrimental affects on balance it can cause in Reach.

> Imagine this:
>
> It’s Invasion Slayer on Hemorrhage. You’re playing on the Elite team. As the game starts, you grab the Focus Rifle before your teammates can, and decide to head through the teleporter. Immediately, you spot a lone Spartan in a Mongoose driving straight towards you. Pulling out your plasma pistol, you disable his vehicle. He gets out before the blast hits, and you start firing with your focus rifle. He calmly bears the abuse for a few seconds, and then lackadaisically pulls out his Sniper Rifle and snipes you, before running over to -Yoink!- your body. You are left staring at the respawn screen in utter disgust.
>
> There are, obviously, those who will claim that this single Elite was an absolute moron.
>
> “Why didn’t he take a different route? He was asking for it.”
>
> “Why didn’t he use Evade and try to get out of the way? What’s he doing?”
>
> “Why didn’t he stick the Mongoose with a plasma grenade instead, and then run away?”
>
> Of course, all of these issues ignore the one thing that allowed the Spartan in this scenario to triumph over the Elite: the weapon imbalance in the sandbox.
>
> The Sniper Rifle, as I am sure many are aware, dominates the Focus Rifle. A good Sniper will always beat a good Focus Rifle user. That is an established fact. Why? Because the kill time of the Sniper user is so much faster than the kill time of the Focus Rifle user.
>
> Place two computer bots in control of the player characters and have them attack at the same time. Delete unnecessary factors such as environmental terrain, Armor Abilities, secondary weapons, grenades, and other things.
>
> The computer bot controlling the player using the Sniper Rifle will win 100% of the time.
>
> And here we get into one of the major design philosophies that are extremely trending among major game developers nowadays: the need to add variety to their games to, theoretically, increase enjoyment for everyone.
>
> Don’t get me wrong, variety is okay. It’s fine. It’s a noble goal. It’s one of the reasons, for example, that we have access to so many playlists. Want a fast-twitch reaction type game? Go for Team SWAT. Want the most “pro” gametype of Halo? Go to MLG. Want to experience some of the Classic Halo setups that endeared you to the game series? Go to the Classic Playlist.
>
> [Editor’s note: It is interesting to note that the Classic Playlist is nothing like Halo: CE, or even 2 for that matter. Bloom, nuke grenades, and a wonky melee system show that with Reach’s limited custom game options, we can’t truly create a “classic” Halo experience on the Reach engine. Personally, I’m glad 343i has taken the reigns and steered this forward with the TU.]
>
> Yet when variety takes the place of balance at the forefront of a game developer’s multiplayer design team, it becomes a problem.
>
> Take the Call of Duty series, for instance. Multiple threads on the Bungie forums and other game forums always compare these two FPSs, simply because they are both top-selling video-game series.
>
> However, what truly turned me off from the COD series is what I like to term the “throw as much cool stuff in the game as possible and hope it sticks” mentality of Activision and co.
>
> Killstreaks, deathstreaks, a seemingly infinite amount of weapon customization options, poorly balanced “perks” that in certain combinations are hated on and bemoaned across the COD community, and asymmetrical maps that favor one team or the other absolutely ruined what shred of balance the series possessed in the first place.
>
> So it is with an uneasy feeling that I watched the final Halo game take the same steps of its competition, especially in design philosophy concerning Armor Abilities. I’ll get into that later.
>
> The most obvious and clear example of variety taking precedence over balance, however, is the Invasion gametype; specifically, balance between Human and Covenant weapons, vehicles, and base traits.
>
>
> Let’s start with the vehicles.
>
>
> Banshees destroy Falcons.
> Scorpions destroy Wraiths (and Banshees too, come to think of it)
> Warthogs chew up Ghosts
>
> Revenants are too weak and pitiful to include in this equation, unless you count the “Sniper in side-seat of Revenant gets access to massive enemy hitboxes” glitch, but we’ll ignore that for obvious reasons.
>
> Yes, I am aware that this sort of vehicle balance has been inherently present in all the Halo games. I also argue that this sort of thing is absolutely horrible for balance.
>
> Why, you ask?

3

(Continued from above)

> Well in Halos 1-3, there was no such thing as an Invasion gametype. BOTH teams had equal access to vehicles. That meant that they all had Ghosts, Scorpion tanks, or whatever. Thus, balance was present since both teams were at equilibrium, vehicle wise.
>
> In Invasion and Invasion Slayer, this equilibrium shifts in favor of the Spartan team, for the reasons mentioned above.
>
> Why isn’t there a Covenant vehicle that behaves exactly like a Scorpion? Why isn’t there a Covenant vehicle that behaves exactly like a Warthog? (Uhwait a second wasn’t the Specter in Halo 2?) On another note, why isn’t there a Human vehicle that behaves exactly like a Banshee?
>
> The answer? Variety. And here is why variety is bad: it can in certain situations unbalance the game. Invasion is definitely unbalanced.
>
> I remember reading an article about a Bungie employee, where he was saying that when designing multiplayer, they didn’t want to have bland, vanilla sides facing off, and they wanted to inject a bit of variety and unique elements into the Elite and Human weapon sandboxes. I’ll assume that is why the Beam rifle was replaced by the Focus Rifle.
>
> That’s great. Really, it is. That also doesn’t stop people from racking up “Be the Bullet” medals [For the poor, tired, huddled masses, that’s the medal you get when you have 15 kills with the Sniper Rifle without dying], because the Elite focus rifle is too damn weak against the Human weapon. I’d rather have bland, vanilla sides facing off, because that’s where true competition arises and the so called “skill-gap” kicks into play.
>
> Beating a team while possessing inherent advantages is fun. So what. I’d rather have it be a fair fight in which both teams are granted equal access to the same materials, and thus the better team will triumph all the time.
>
> As for the Covenant and Human weapons in Invasion? Don’t get me started on that.
>
> Shotgun beats Energy Sword (good thing 343i is going to remove Sword Block), Grenade Launcher beats Concussion Rifle by a mile, DMR beats Needle Rifle, Magnum beats energy pistol simply because of the range advantage, Assault Rifle beats Plasma Repeater, and Sniper Rifle beats Focus Rifle.
>
> With this super-stacked assortment of weapons and vehicles against Elite players, it’s a wonder that Spartans actually lose games in Invasion. And all plasma weapons fall to the onslaught of bullet weapons. I believe plasma weapons drain shields faster, but take longer to damage health, while bullet weapons do the opposite.
>
> Why is this? Why couldn’t they do the same damage to health and shields?
>
> The answer? Variety. Variety rearing its head once again to forsake balance. And all the Elites have to make up for this is a boost in Health, the ability to regen Health, increased jump height (I don’t know HOW that would help) and.a whole lot of nothing besides a bigger hitbox.
>
> Moving on.

4

(Continued from above)

> The second most glaring example of variety taking precedence over the goal of balance is Armor Abilities.
>
> Armor Abilities, are, for the lack of a better word, controversial. I must confess my amusement at how many times I’ve seen the older members of the Halo community react with such distaste at the abilities. Equipment, which people even complained about back in Halo 3, was revamped to be loadouts selected at spawn.
>
> This would have been all fine and dandy, yet it seems the lack of clear counters to certain abilities throws a wrench right into balance.
>
> Armor Lock is a common example of this.
>
> I’m not going to go into all the reasons of why it is overpowered versus the other Armor Abilities, for that has been discussed to life, death, and beyond.
>
> Instead, I’m going to present a clear example of just how from a casual glance alone you can really tell balance wasn’t high-up in the “to-do” list of the people in charge of Multiplayer Matchmaking.
>
> Team Slayer is a playlist where 4 players face off against another 4 players. At spawn, you can select from a variety (variety, huh, get it? Terrible pun, sorry.) of Armor Abilities. If my memory serves me correctly, those abilities are Armor Lock, Sprint, Jetpack, Hologram, and Active Camo (not in order, of course). Right off the bat, if you passed grade 1 math, you can instantly see that something is wrong.
>
> Team Slayer. Four players, right? But there’s five abilities. Five. This means no matter what type of layout you’re going to command your team to choose, there will always be one Armor Ability that cannot be defended against by your team. Let’s pretend for a moment that all of the Armor Abilities act as perfect rock-paper-scissor counters.
>
> So there you are, waiting for the countdown timer to spring your team into action, and you have all your callouts and power weapon positions memorized. You get teammate A to select Sprint, teammate B to select Armor Lock, teammate C to select Active Camo, and you decide to take Hologram.
>
> As soon as your team engages the enemy you realize that they’re all using Active Camo. What do you do? Since Active Camo beats Sprint beats Jetpack beats Hologram beats Armor Lock, Active Camo’s only counter is itself. All your teammate’s abilities are completely useless. The only option available is to die and get your team to all switch to Active Camo. But then the enemy team switches to Jetpack. And you know Jetpack’s only counter is Sprint.
>
> So you can see how just one teeny element completely screws over all semblance of balance.
>
> Yet the really sad thing is none of the Armor Abilities even act as hard-counters to others, as shown in the above hypothetical example. Camo doesn’t beat Sprint. Sprint doesn’t beat jetpack. There’s no real sense of which rock beats which scissors beats which paper. Armor Abilities are just sort of.there. Some are useless (Hologram). Some are overpowered (Armor Lock). Some just help you move faster (Sprint).
>
> It would be fine if the abilities were like equipment/power weapons to be fought over for. Even if you hated Equipment back in Halo 3, you couldn’t really argue (on a well designed map) that they were unbalanced, since, hey, it was only your fault that your opponent got to them first, right?
>
> Instead, we’re stuck with all this junk that looks nice on television ads and are fun to play around with from a casual perspective, but are incomprehensibly stupid from a competitive point of view.
>
> Ask anyone who supports Armor Abilities, and they’ll tell you that “they don’t want Reach to be Halo 3.5,” or that Armor Abilities “add variety to the Halo formula,” or are just “fun.” These are the same people who see nothing wrong with Invasion and do not understand that competitive players don’t really care if it’s Halo 3.5 or not, they just want a big skill-gap, and balance, not variety, is the answer.
>
> MLG has adapted in the most logical manner by actually placing Armor Abilities in power weapon locations to encourage map control and balance them better. None of the other playlists have followed suit, unfortunately, and Invasion is just simply too inherently broken for anyone to even attempt to balance.
>
> Still, it’s a sad day when the ideal of variety tarnishes the scales of balance.

5

> Topic #1 Conclusions:
>
> -Variety can screw up balance, and perhaps took precedence over it during the development stages of Reach.
> -Variety was perhaps an instrumental factor in the design of Armor Abilities
> -Armor Abilities, (when taken as a whole set), are not balanced, and lack clear, definite, hard counters, and are arguably better off as Equipment
> - The Invasion playlist favors the Spartan team, in part because of the goal of variety
>
> -There’s no clear reasoning as to why Plasma weapons are so ineffective compared to their Kinetic/Bullet counterparts (Actually, I’m going to go into this at a later date, but it was implied in the paragraphs where I was discussing Invasion.)

6

Going to make some minor formatting edits around here soon

Edit: Minor edits done. Looks more presentable I guess.

7

> Going to make some minor formatting edits around here soon.
>
> On second thought, maybe this belongs in general discussion since I might bring it back for Halo 4. Then again, looking at the amount of replies my thread has garnered, this project seems as big a monumental failure as the last few times.

You can’t rush perfection :slight_smile:

8

Wow, this is quite the thread. Nice work.

> we’re stuck with all this junk that looks nice on television ads and are fun to play around with from a casual perspective, but are incomprehensibly stupid from a competitive point of view.
>
> Ask anyone who supports Armor Abilities, and they’ll tell you that “they don’t want Reach to be Halo 3.5,” or that Armor Abilities “add variety to the Halo formula,” or are just “fun.” These are the same people who see nothing wrong with Invasion and do not understand that competitive players don’t really care if it’s Halo 3.5 or not, they just want a big skill-gap, and balance, not variety, is the answer.

I’m liking this. Hopefully 343 sees it.

9

> Wow, this is quite the thread. Nice work.
>
>
>
> > we’re stuck with all this junk that looks nice on television ads and are fun to play around with from a casual perspective, but are incomprehensibly stupid from a competitive point of view.
> >
> > Ask anyone who supports Armor Abilities, and they’ll tell you that “they don’t want Reach to be Halo 3.5,” or that Armor Abilities “add variety to the Halo formula,” or are just “fun.” These are the same people who see nothing wrong with Invasion and do not understand that competitive players don’t really care if it’s Halo 3.5 or not, they just want a big skill-gap, and balance, not variety, is the answer.
>
> I’m liking this. Hopefully 343 sees it.

Thank you for the compliment.

10

> > Going to make some minor formatting edits around here soon.
> >
> > On second thought, maybe this belongs in general discussion since I might bring it back for Halo 4. Then again, looking at the amount of replies my thread has garnered, this project seems as big a monumental failure as the last few times.
>
> You can’t rush perfection :slight_smile:

Again, thanks.

The first topic [Variety vs Balance] has gotten little replies so far, perhaps because it’s a bit general and not many people really complain about balance issues in Invasion, which is where the majority of my examples were set.

I’ve already finished another discussion prompt (not as long as this one, haha) on Bloom, and the 3 fundamental reasons that I feel it failed to fulfill it’s purpose, as well as some suggestions to help fix it. That’ll be uploaded most likely by tomorrow.

11

A truly most excellent read. I do agree that (or rather acknowledging the fact) that the elites are always at an extreme disadvantage. It was never that way in the beta, where I recall Bungie stating that “On average the elites won 60/40 against spartans” we could only dream of that ever happening now - what happened? In the beta elite’s shields recharged 3-4 seconds faster, and the plasma launcher was far deadlier to name a few changes. I’m sorry but the slight bonuses to being an elite do not make up for they’re massive hitbox and worthless weapons.

12

> A truly most excellent read. I do agree that (or rather acknowledging the fact) that the elites are always at an extreme disadvantage. It was never that way in the beta, where I recall Bungie stating that “On average the elites won 60/40 against spartans” we could only dream of that ever happening now - what happened? In the beta elite’s shields recharged 3-4 seconds faster, and the plasma launcher was far deadlier to name a few changes. I’m sorry but the slight bonuses to being an elite do not make up for they’re massive hitbox and worthless weapons.

Also the focus rifle became the bogus rifle.

13

That was quite the read, but everything you had to say on the topic of variety is completely true. I think MLG has it right, because they’ve eliminated all of the game’s useless weapons (read: almost all of them) in favor of a balanced, concise setup. It’s not just that Covenent weapons are underpowered compared to human weaponry, it’s that nearly the entirety of this game’s sandbox is either unbalanced or redundant.

14

This is incredibly well-thought out and intelligent. You see, I love reading (and Halo, but you all knew that) topics like these, as they contain the issues that must be fixed in a non-cringeworthy manner.

This Thread should stay alive.

15

Live!!! But yeah this is a well thought out post and i agree with putting AAs on the map as pickups. It would improve gameplay a lot.

16

I like this… when I have time I’m going to read through all of it:)

17

I LOVE Reach! :slight_smile:
I think Bungie did an amazing job with almost everything!

The soundtrack was amazing, it was different from the other Halo’s, but it had the same awesome Marty feel! :slight_smile:

Firefight is awesome, because you can customize it however you want!

You can make so many fun custom games!

Forge is AMAZING! Just messing around with your buddies in Forge is so much fun!

The multiplayer is good to. Invasion is the most fun i’ve ever had playing an online FPS!

Alot of the things you say are completly right, and i also think that Reach’s multiplayer needs some improvements.
For example, some of the AA’s needs to be balanced out… WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT 343I IS DOING! :smiley:

One of the things i like the most about Reach though, is that the design is superb! :slight_smile:
The way the Spartans, Elites, UNSC troops, Covenant, enviroments and weapons look like, are without a doubt the best in the series!

This isn’t an argument against your post, i’m just saying what i think about Halo: Reach! :slight_smile:

18

I completely agree. There are only so many situations you get yourself into in a FPS (close range, medium range, long range) and adding more weapons is just giving players different ways to do the exact same thing.

-Sword, Hammer and shotgun are all weapons to kill players at close range. They just do it differently.
-Medium range you have the assault rifle, plasma rifle, plasma repeater, rocket launcher, grenade launcher, fuel rod gun and needler,
-Sniper and focus rifle are the same for long range.
-Specialized weapons like Spartan Laser are in a category of their own.
-Weapons like the DMR or BR are kind of a utility weapon that fit across all 3

You can literally create thousands of unique weapons for a single game, but in all reality they fall into 3ish categories; Long range weapons , medium range weapons and short range weapons. I say 3ish because it is not so clear cut when you get weapons like the spartan laser. You could throw that in with long range, but it is really just anti-vehicle and it can be used at any range, it is just easiest at long range. Also weapons like the Sniper and DMR are in a gray area because they are most effective at a certain range, but can also be used at most ranges.

Just for the hell of it I am going to start a list of all the different behaviors of a gun that allow developers to create different kinds of weapons.

FIRING BEHAVIOR
-Automatic
-Semi-automatic
-Bolt action
-Manual (crossbow, grenades, etc…)

PROJECTILE BEHAVIOR
-Inertial damage (regular bullets)
-Tracking
-Bouncable
-Explosive
-Energy damage
-velocity
-Splash damage

RANGE EFFECTIVENESS
-Long
-Medium
-Close
-utility weapon (all 3)

PROJECTILE POWER (Like range there are infinite levels but I will categorize it similar to range)
-High
-Medium
-Low

This list does not even include miscellaneous items like being able to hold the trigger down for different behaviors. I will continue to add to that list as I think of proper things to add, but just by that list you can see how many combinations there are. For example lets take the Grenade launcher and create several other completely unique weapons with the basic idea of a medium range explosive weapon.

Instead of one high power, bouncing projectile that is single shot, make the gun fully automatic with low power bouncing projectiles. Imagine an AR with mini grenade launcher shots.

OR make it bolt action, high velocity, medium power shots that explode on direct impact. Think two shots anywhere to kill with a 3-4 shot clip and dead on accuracy. (but you have to lead shots)

OR make it have a large splash damage with lower power. Think the grenade launcher now except more of the EMP side with a larger splash radius.

That is 3 completely unique weapons that behave pretty much the same. A developers goal should be to make their sandbox utterly balanced before adding variety.

19

Commenting So I can read this later. Looks nice so far :slight_smile:

20

the state of multiplayer in halo reach is as follows:

fail in certain areas, and acknowledged fail in certain areas.

this fail is acknowledged by a designer of reach (shishka) in the bulletin, regarding bloom specifically.

and, improvements on the way. :smiley:

we all share your pain bro, be patient. positive change is on the way. were in good hands, right guys?