Sprint discussions are pointless on this forum

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I’ll start off by saying that these are just the facts and this is not intended to offend anyone.
If you somehow do get offended over an internet post I suggest you get help.

First let’s talk about the general population of the Halo Waypoint forums.
I’ll start by introducing myself. My gt is Voidal and I am a well known member of the halo 3 twitch community, which consists almost entirely of players with multiple H3 50s. In other words, I associate with very high skilled players. I have ~100 players with multiple H3 50s on my friendlist and many more associates I frequently chat with on twitch.
Personally I have 2 50s but I would not consider myself decent at best. Regardless I have a lot of experience playing at the highest level and playing with and against top tier players.

The reason I say this is to demonstate that I have a pretty good idea of what the more competent Halo players think about Halo’s future and also why most of them tend to stay away from Waypoint. The reason for this is that most of them do not want to deal with the ignorance of bad players, which unfortunately makes up for a large part of the Waypoint community.
Once again, this is not intended to offend anyone, it’s just the truth.

Given the fact that there are so little highly skilled players on this forum, it really crushes the opportunity for reasonable discussions.
Again, this will sound elitist but it is true. Bad players generally don’t understand game mechanics very much, especially the more complex ones such as sprint.
Think about it. There is a reason why 99% of players who have played at the highest level of Halo hate sprint.
It’s because they understand it, we understand exactly what all game mechanics do and how they affect gameplay in every way.
Not just a casual level but at a competitive level. This is something that the majority of this forum will never understand.

Certain mechanics play out very differently in a setting where all players are highly skilled.
Sprint is one of these mechanics. Most of you will say that “sprint speeds up gameplay”. In a setting where the majority of players are terrible at the game then yes, they can sprint faster towards combat with their AR out.
In a setting where everyone is a highly skilled player however, it is quite the opposite. Sprint slows gameplay down.
Competent players work as a team, when they feel that they’re about to lose a gunfight they sprint away.
A bad player would most likely chase after him, a good player knows that chasing is a terrible move, especially if you are controlling a key position.
In other words, combat is stretched out. Every gunfight. Every encounter.
The majority of this forum will never get to experience how horrendous sprint can be in these situations because they’ll never compete at such a level.

As elitist as this may sound, the opinion of a bad halo player is generally uninformed.
How am I supposed to debate a complex mechanic like sprint with players who don’t understand the game mechanics and have never played in a highly skilled setting?
It is essentially like a licensed car mechanic trying to debate cars with random car fans who enjoy cars but don’t really understand how they work.
I’m not saying that a bad player’s opinion is completely worthless, I’m just saying it’s uninformed, which makes these type of discussions futile.

This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.

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> 2535438961934440;2:
> This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.

In my experience those discussions usually end up in insults from both sides. The less skilled players either don’t understand, label people as elitist, or they get angry because someone referred to them as a bad player. On the other hand the more skilled players are often angered by the uninformed opinions of lesser skilled players, which in turn results in more insults.
You simply can’t have a good debate here when the majority has an uninformed opinion.
Saying that a highly skilled player has a more informed opinion is a fact, not just elitism.

These discussions are nothing more than circular messes, where both sides claim victory and both sides spew crap arguments.

> 2535410018832644;3:
> > 2535438961934440;2:
> > This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.
>
>
> In my experience those discussions usually end up in insults from both sides. The less skilled players either don’t understand, label people as elitist, or they get angry because someone referred to them as a bad player. On the other hand the more skilled players are often angered by the uninformed opinions of lesser skilled players, which in turn results in more insults.
> You simply can’t have a good debate here when the majority has an uninformed opinion.

What make you assume that one side is “lesser skilled”? that in itself is an insult and is also quite elitist.

> 2535410018832644;3:
> > 2535438961934440;2:
> > This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.
>
>
> In my experience those discussions usually end up in insults from both sides. The less skilled players either don’t understand, label people as elitist, or they get angry because someone referred to them as a bad player. On the other hand the more skilled players are often angered by the uninformed opinions of lesser skilled players, which in turn results in more insults.
> You simply can’t have a good debate here when the majority has an uninformed opinion.
> Saying that a highly skilled player has a more informed opinion is a fact, not just elitism.

You’re not wrong. I have a couple decent sprint discussions though. They can occur when you meet a lesser skilled player who is a very intelligent person.

> 2535438961934440;6:
> > 2535410018832644;3:
> > > 2535438961934440;2:
> > > This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.
> >
> >
> > In my experience those discussions usually end up in insults from both sides. The less skilled players either don’t understand, label people as elitist, or they get angry because someone referred to them as a bad player. On the other hand the more skilled players are often angered by the uninformed opinions of lesser skilled players, which in turn results in more insults.
> > You simply can’t have a good debate here when the majority has an uninformed opinion.
> > Saying that a highly skilled player has a more informed opinion is a fact, not just elitism.
>
>
> You’re not wrong. I have a couple decent sprint discussions though. They can occur when you meet a lesser skilled player who is a very intelligent person.

So anyone who disagrees with you is not intelligent?

do you not understand opinion?

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> 2533274857398125;7:
> > 2535438961934440;6:
> > > 2535410018832644;3:
> > > > 2535438961934440;2:
> > > > This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.
> > >
> > >
> > > In my experience those discussions usually end up in insults from both sides. The less skilled players either don’t understand, label people as elitist, or they get angry because someone referred to them as a bad player. On the other hand the more skilled players are often angered by the uninformed opinions of lesser skilled players, which in turn results in more insults.
> > > You simply can’t have a good debate here when the majority has an uninformed opinion.
> > > Saying that a highly skilled player has a more informed opinion is a fact, not just elitism.
> >
> >
> > You’re not wrong. I have a couple decent sprint discussions though. They can occur when you meet a lesser skilled player who is a very intelligent person.
>
>
> So anyone who disagrees with you is not intelligent?
>
> do you not understand opinion?

No, I’m saying that their opinion is uninformed. If someone who has also played at the highest level of competition and then favors sprint, that is an opinion I can respect.
Not that you will ever find a highly skilled player who favors sprint, but regardless in that hypothetical situation I would respect his opinion because he has experienced the effects of sprint at all levels and obviously knows how the game works.
The truth is, the vast majority of sprint favorers are bad players. When most of the players don’t really know what they’re doing, I bet sprint makes it more fun for them.
At that level, sprint isn’t really a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when the players actually know what they’re doing, and that’s something sprint favorers rarely experience.

I’ll give you another example of how certain mechanics are completely different depending on the players involved.
AR/SMG starts. Another gameplay element that is favored mostly by bad players and is hated by every highly skilled player.
AR starts favorers often claim that it promotes more variety in the game. At the level they play at, that is correct.
However in a setting where all players are highly skilled, it does not promote more variety at all, it promotes imbalance.
Here’s what happens when skilled players play AR starts. The game begins, the players know where the BRs spawn so they immediately pick up all BRs available.
They then push for map control against the other team. Whoever wins the initial push wins the game the vast majority of the time.
Team A has gained map control with the BR, team B is now defenseless and tries to find BRs but struggle to gain map control.
Team A will now try to force a spawntrap. The rest of the match will either consist of spawnkilling or a very slow game of Team B camping because they don’t have a BR to reconquer the map control or get out of a spawntrap.
As you can imagine, this is boring for Team A and extremely frustrating for Team B. That is why highly skilled players despise AR starts.

That is also why competitive players are begging to remove AR starts from all ranked playlists and only keep it in social. It has no place in a competitive setting.
Another solution would be to include AR starts in ranked playlists but only up to a certain rank like 35 or 40.
This would keep the AR starts favorers happy because they’ll never reach above a 35 or 40, and it also keeps the upper echelon players happy.

> 2535410018832644;8:
> > 2533274857398125;7:
> > > 2535438961934440;6:
> > > > 2535410018832644;3:
> > > > > 2535438961934440;2:
> > > > > This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In my experience those discussions usually end up in insults from both sides. The less skilled players either don’t understand, label people as elitist, or they get angry because someone referred to them as a bad player. On the other hand the more skilled players are often angered by the uninformed opinions of lesser skilled players, which in turn results in more insults.
> > > > You simply can’t have a good debate here when the majority has an uninformed opinion.
> > > > Saying that a highly skilled player has a more informed opinion is a fact, not just elitism.
> > >
> > >
> > > You’re not wrong. I have a couple decent sprint discussions though. They can occur when you meet a lesser skilled player who is a very intelligent person.
> >
> >
> > So anyone who disagrees with you is not intelligent?
> >
> > do you not understand opinion?
>
>
> No, I’m saying that their opinion is uninformed. If someone who has also played at the highest level of competition and then favors sprint, that is an opinion I can respect.
> Not that you will ever find a highly skilled player who favors sprint, but regardless in that hypothetical situation I would respect his opinion because he has experienced the effects of sprint at all levels and obviously knows how the game works.
> The truth is, the vast majority of sprint favorers are bad players. When most of the players don’t really know what they’re doing, I bet sprint makes it more fun for them.
> At that level, sprint isn’t really a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when the players actually know what they’re doing, and that’s something sprint favorers rarely experience.
>
> I’ll give you another example of how certain mechanics are completely different depending on the players involved.
> AR/SMG starts. Another gameplay element that is favored mostly by bad players and is hated by every highly skilled player.
> AR starts favorers often claim that it promotes more variety in the game. At the level they play at, that is correct.
> However in a setting where all players are highly skilled, it does not promote more variety at all, it promotes imbalance.
> Here’s what happens when skilled players play AR starts. The game begins, the players know where the BRs spawn so they immediately pick up all BRs available.
> They then push for map control against the other team. Whoever wins the initial push wins the game the vast majority of the time.
> Team A has gained map control with the BR, team B is now defenseless and tries to find BRs but struggle to gain map control.
> Team A will now try to force a spawntrap. The rest of the match will either consist of spawnkilling or a very slow game of Team B camping because they don’t have a BR to reconquer the map control or get out of a spawntrap.
> As you can imagine, this is boring for Team A and extremely frustrating for Team B. That is why highly skilled players despise AR starts.
>
> That is also why competitive players are begging to remove AR starts from all ranked playlists and only keep it in social. It has no place in a competitive setting.
> Another solution would be to include AR starts in ranked playlists but only up to a certain rank like 35 or 40.
> This would keep the AR starts favorers happy because they’ll never reach above a 35 or 40, and it also keeps the upper echelon players happy.

I’ve seen quite a few highly skilled players in my days who favour sprint. Do not remember the reasoning though.

I would also suggest strongly against having different types of game modes, even if it is only starting weapons, between different skill ranks. It would make it confusing once you hit the rank border and the game suddenly changed to something you’re not used to or familiar with.

> 2533274857398125;7:
> > 2535438961934440;6:
> > > 2535410018832644;3:
> > > > 2535438961934440;2:
> > > > This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.
> > >
> > >
> > > In my experience those discussions usually end up in insults from both sides. The less skilled players either don’t understand, label people as elitist, or they get angry because someone referred to them as a bad player. On the other hand the more skilled players are often angered by the uninformed opinions of lesser skilled players, which in turn results in more insults.
> > > You simply can’t have a good debate here when the majority has an uninformed opinion.
> > > Saying that a highly skilled player has a more informed opinion is a fact, not just elitism.
> >
> >
> > You’re not wrong. I have a couple decent sprint discussions though. They can occur when you meet a lesser skilled player who is a very intelligent person.
>
>
> So anyone who disagrees with you is not intelligent?
>
> do you not understand opinion?

Where did he say that? Tell me. Where?

I would argue that this anti-discussion thread is pointless, given that the very nature of a forum is to have discussions.

> 2533274857398125;7:
> > 2535438961934440;6:
> > > 2535410018832644;3:
> > > > 2535438961934440;2:
> > > > This is exactly why these discussion are a good thing. It’s a good chance to let lesser skilled/experienced players hear the opinion’s of people who see the game in a different light.
> > >
> > >
> > > In my experience those discussions usually end up in insults from both sides. The less skilled players either don’t understand, label people as elitist, or they get angry because someone referred to them as a bad player. On the other hand the more skilled players are often angered by the uninformed opinions of lesser skilled players, which in turn results in more insults.
> > > You simply can’t have a good debate here when the majority has an uninformed opinion.
> > > Saying that a highly skilled player has a more informed opinion is a fact, not just elitism.
> >
> >
> > You’re not wrong. I have a couple decent sprint discussions though. They can occur when you meet a lesser skilled player who is a very intelligent person.
>
>
> So anyone who disagrees with you is not intelligent?
>
> do you not understand opinion?

Thats not what I said.

You try to soften the blows of your, dare I say “self righteous” claims by warning that it’ll sound elitist, you know why? Because everything you are saying IS elitist as hell. Every time I see you pull that “Halo 3 50’s this, Halo 3 50’s that” it just makes me laugh. Like seriously, get over yourself. Ever heard of the word subjective? Did you know that things like faster/slower gameplay, and having/or not having more frequent cat and mouse situations in gameplay is entirely subjective? There are fine points of game design that are factual, not subjective, but you make it seem as if all things that you don’t enjoy or like about Halo 5 is factually wrong, and try to claim it all as fact because “multiple Halo 3 50’s agree with me, DERH!” I’ve said this once, and ill say it again, there are plenty of competent Halo players that dont have the type of credentials that you consider a must to be a competent halo player (having at least one 50 in Halo 3), because they dont have the time to waste their life away just to have the right to say “I’m a competent Halo player, now smell my finger” (if you didn’t get the pun, its implying that people with your “superior” mindset are probably deluded fools who think its okay to get people to smell the finger they just picked their -Yoink- with).

End of Rant
Now go ahead and keep throwing your “factual” opinions in everyone’s face with the oh so legitimate backbone of your arguments that is the word of “multiple Halo 3 50’s.” Because a few kids who sat in their parents basement playing Halo 3 ENOUGH to get to that rank totally understand the fine points of game design… Totally.

All of the above is based upon the presumption that fast gameplay = good gameplay and slow gameplay = bad gameplay. I may not be a competitive player, but I read what everyone has to say, understand most of it, and I’ve watched plenty of competitive play. If you want to preface every anti-sprint argument with “assuming that we can all agree that a faster game is superior to a slower game…” then that’s just fine. And I get that it is more desirable for competitive players. Anything that is hard to do already is even harder to do when you’re in a hurry. This means no sprint = more fluid gameplay = faster games. Wider skill gap, more challenge, etc. etc. etc. I get that.

a) I’m not sure how the numbers break down, but these highly competitive players, such as yourself, are a minority. Probably a pretty small minority. Probably getting smaller all the time. If you’re wondering why a developer might be reluctant to build an entire franchise around one single game type, this is part of the reason.

b) The dynamics you describe may be (for you) a desirable characteristics of competitive 4v4 Halo. But there is a great deal more to Halo than competitive 4v4. Campaign without sprint? BTB without sprint? Firefight or SpartanOps without sprint? I’m not saying it’s absolutely necessary, but…

c) For me personally, speed is not only not necessary for fun game play, it is actually detrimental. I actually prefer a slower, more methodical, less chaotic approach to game play. If that makes me a scrub, than so be it. My personal feeling is that this does not make a game less competitive, but that it shifts the emphasis from tactics to strategy. One skill set, which used to be the only skill set, now has to be balanced with another. Maybe this means that “anti-sprinters can’t adapt” or maybe it means “Halo isn’t Halo anymore.” You tell me.

Having multiple people agree with you doesn’t make you right.

When you have actual facts and data showing and proving your claims you can state that sprint is in fact a problem, until then nothing you say, or anyone else arguing sprint, matters.

It’s pointless to argue sprint because no one has actual facts, it’s just opinion against opinion, which leads nowhere.

If game designers feel that it isn’t as much of a problem i’m more inclined to believe them than random people over the internet.

> 2535411125532250;15:
> Having multiple people agree with you doesn’t make you right.
>
> When you have actual facts and data showing and proving your claims you can state that sprint is in fact a problem, until then nothing you say, or anyone else arguing sprint, matters.
>
> It’s pointless to argue sprint because no one has actual facts, it’s just opinion against opinion, which leads nowhere.
>
> If game designers feel that it isn’t as much of a problem i’m more inclined to believe them than random people over the internet.

> Sprint makes maps massive. All useful points are too far away for a player to use base speed (moving and shooting) in a decent amount of time, not to mention the space between players is now, on average, increased. Try playing Prisoner or Beaver Creek with Sprint. Go ahead. Reach has an anniversary collection. Spoiler: you -Yoinking- can’t.
>
> Lines of sight are muddled because movement negates the use of weaponry. If I can’t move and shoot (and because maps are huge, I can’t,) then I am under insane pressure to get to cover because I can’t reciprocate anyone shooting at me. Therefore, lines of sight must be closed down to allow players to Sprint to their heart’s content, rather than have combat be initiated as soon as you step onto the map. Try playing Hang Em’ High with Sprint. You -Yoinking- can’t.

> “Sprint” does not fit the definition of movement, however. Halo’s Sprint is movement without use of weaponry in a single direction. In order to strafe, move backwards, or shoot my dang gun, I must be reduced to a crawl on a massive map. In order to do anything important, I must move slowly on a larger map. This is different than moving slowly on a smaller map, or faster on a larger map. Therein lies one of my greatest qualms with this mechanic. What is it? Is it an addendum that now players must stare directly forward and cripple themselves to travel from place to place? Is it a designated “tuck your tail between your legs, spin around and run the -Yoink- away” button? Is it an attempt to fit a mechanic into Halo to pretend it’s still relevant, even though, as population charts would indicate, it only stopped being so around 2010?

> The open center of a 4 v 4 map without Sprint is a place of death and judgment. It’s where -Yoink- gets real and all the big firefights happen.
>
> With Sprint? Well, the centers of Countdown, the Cage, Asylum, Reflection, Powerhouse, and Zealot become ghost towns. At least in 4, they had the bright idea to stick giant pieces of geometry in the middle of all the maps. After all, if the center of Guardian is too big, and the lines of sight too wide, than fighting there means that you must be reduced to a snails pace, and moving there means that you can’t shoot back at whoever is shooting at you.

> It is a fact Sprint impacts the game this way. It’s also a fact that I’m of the opinion I don’t like it.

You’re welcome.

> 2535464699776153;13:
> You try to soften the blows of your, dare I say “self righteous” claims by warning that it’ll sound elitist, you know why? Because everything you are saying IS elitist as hell. Every time I see you pull that “Halo 3 50’s this, Halo 3 50’s that” it just makes me laugh. Like seriously, get over yourself. Ever heard of the word subjective? Did you know that things like faster/slower gameplay, and having/or not having more frequent cat and mouse situations in gameplay is entirely subjective? There are fine points of game design that are factual, not subjective, but you make it seem as if all things that you don’t enjoy or like about Halo 5 is factually wrong, and try to claim it all as fact because “multiple Halo 3 50’s agree with me, DERH!” I’ve said this once, and ill say it again, there are plenty of competent Halo players that dont have the type of credentials that you consider a must to be a competent halo player (having at least one 50 in Halo 3), because they dont have the time to waste their life away just to have the right to say “I’m a competent Halo player, now smell my finger” (if you didn’t get the pun, its implying that people with your “superior” mindset are probably deluded fools who think its okay to get people to smell the finger they just picked their -Yoink- with).
>
> End of Rant
> Now go ahead and keep throwing your “factual” opinions in everyone’s face with the oh so legitimate backbone of your arguments that is the word of “multiple Halo 3 50’s.” Because a few kids who sat in their parents basement playing Halo 3 ENOUGH to get to that rank totally understand the fine points of game design… Totally.

I had a h3 50 after like 200 games. It didnt take long in h3.

It didnt take long to get a h3 if you had the skill. But you already know this. Youre just pissed.

> 2535411125532250;15:
> Having multiple people agree with you doesn’t make you right.
>
> When you have actual facts and data showing and proving your claims you can state that sprint is in fact a problem, until then nothing you say, or anyone else arguing sprint, matters.
>
> It’s pointless to argue sprint because no one has actual facts, it’s just opinion against opinion, which leads nowhere.
>
> If game designers feel that it isn’t as much of a problem i’m more inclined to believe them than random people over the internet.

Do you facts and data showing its not a problem?

> 2535421619942348;16:
> > 2535411125532250;15:
> > Having multiple people agree with you doesn’t make you right.
> >
> > When you have actual facts and data showing and proving your claims you can state that sprint is in fact a problem, until then nothing you say, or anyone else arguing sprint, matters.
> >
> > It’s pointless to argue sprint because no one has actual facts, it’s just opinion against opinion, which leads nowhere.
> >
> > If game designers feel that it isn’t as much of a problem i’m more inclined to believe them than random people over the internet.
>
>
>
>
> > Sprint makes maps massive. All useful points are too far away for a player to use base speed (moving and shooting) in a decent amount of time, not to mention the space between players is now, on average, increased. Try playing Prisoner or Beaver Creek with Sprint. Go ahead. Reach has an anniversary collection. Spoiler: you -Yoinking- can’t.
> >
> > Lines of sight are muddled because movement negates the use of weaponry. If I can’t move and shoot (and because maps are huge, I can’t,) then I am under insane pressure to get to cover because I can’t reciprocate anyone shooting at me. Therefore, lines of sight must be closed down to allow players to Sprint to their heart’s content, rather than have combat be initiated as soon as you step onto the map. Try playing Hang Em’ High with Sprint. You -Yoinking- can’t.
>
>
>
>
> > “Sprint” does not fit the definition of movement, however. Halo’s Sprint is movement without use of weaponry in a single direction. In order to strafe, move backwards, or shoot my dang gun, I must be reduced to a crawl on a massive map. In order to do anything important, I must move slowly on a larger map. This is different than moving slowly on a smaller map, or faster on a larger map. Therein lies one of my greatest qualms with this mechanic. What is it? Is it an addendum that now players must stare directly forward and cripple themselves to travel from place to place? Is it a designated “tuck your tail between your legs, spin around and run the -Yoink- away” button? Is it an attempt to fit a mechanic into Halo to pretend it’s still relevant, even though, as population charts would indicate, it only stopped being so around 2010?
>
>
>
>
> > The open center of a 4 v 4 map without Sprint is a place of death and judgment. It’s where -Yoink- gets real and all the big firefights happen.
> >
> > With Sprint? Well, the centers of Countdown, the Cage, Asylum, Reflection, Powerhouse, and Zealot become ghost towns. At least in 4, they had the bright idea to stick giant pieces of geometry in the middle of all the maps. After all, if the center of Guardian is too big, and the lines of sight too wide, than fighting there means that you must be reduced to a snails pace, and moving there means that you can’t shoot back at whoever is shooting at you.
>
>
>
>
> > It is a fact Sprint impacts the game this way. It’s also a fact that I’m of the opinion I don’t like it.
>
>
> You’re welcome.

I think you need to look up what fact means. All of these are unfounded opinions, like me saying not having sprint causes the player to camp more because he won’t want to walk all across the map. Would I expect you to believe me? No.

Instead of just taking what these guys say as fact, ask for them to prove their claims with actual evidence. It shouldn’t be too hard if they’re right.

The only fact is sprint makes tha maps bigger, we know that because Truth is bigger than Midship. Is it good or bad? We don’t know because there’s nothing that proves either.

> 2535438961934440;18:
> > 2535411125532250;15:
> > Having multiple people agree with you doesn’t make you right.
> >
> > When you have actual facts and data showing and proving your claims you can state that sprint is in fact a problem, until then nothing you say, or anyone else arguing sprint, matters.
> >
> > It’s pointless to argue sprint because no one has actual facts, it’s just opinion against opinion, which leads nowhere.
> >
> > If game designers feel that it isn’t as much of a problem i’m more inclined to believe them than random people over the internet.
>
>
> Do you facts and data showing its not a problem?

I never said it wasn’t. What i’m saying is that neither side has any leg to stand on, so it’s completely useless to argue.