Spartan IVs, and my problem with them.

Games Halo 5: Guardians
1

I apologize at the commencement of this thread, because I know this will be overly verbose. However, this is something that has been bothering me since Halo 4, and I want to know if any one here agrees with me. With that out of the way, let us begin.

IMPORTANT: Many of you seem to be getting the wrong idea. It seems some of you think I hate Spartan-IVs, and want them removed from everything. That is incorrect. Please try to realize that these are some problems that bother me about them.

History of Spartan IVs
Spartan IVs are the successors of the famed Spartan IIs and IIIs. Spartan IVs, unlike the previous genetically engineered super soldiers, were taken from military ranks. Only those who were deemed valuable enough were given the option to enlist in the program. In this way, the SPARTAN-IV Program shares a similarity with Project Orion, which would produce the first Spartans (Spartan 1s), in that the subjects were all consenting adults. Project Orion gave rise to many characters, one such Sergeant Major Avery Johnson is likely the first one to come to mind (This will be important later on). This differs from the SPARTAN-II Program, which abducted children, and the Spartan-III Program, which took war orphans. While Spartan IVs are at a lesser level than Spartan IIs, they are significantly better than their Spartan I, and III counterparts. Unlike all previous programs, this one was publicly showcased, as a way to boost morale. A sort of “these are Spartans” movement, that could lead to greater numbers for the UNSC. The group behind the Spartan IVs is ONI, who at the end of the Covenant-Flood-Human War, saw fit to recreate Spartans, as an elite military group of specialized marines, handpicked for genetic enhancements. They have been in service since the end of the Human-covenant war, and have aided in many military missions.

The problem
As outlined in the previous paragraph, Spartan IVs are handpicked from the most elite soldiers available to the UNSC. Those that meet the criteria are offered to become SPARTAN IVs. However, I believe that this can be quite a problem, seeing as how Spartan IVs possess all the maturity and discipline of an overly sensitive teenager with an attitude problem. They behave like children. An example of this would be during one of Halo 4’s many Spartan Ops missions, wherein Fireteam Crimson is competing with Fireteam Majestic. Once you complete it, Palmer states that you got done first, and immediately the fireteam leader for Majestic states something along the lines of “That’s not fair, they had less enemies to fight”… Yes, a Spartan IV, and elite warrior, the best of the best of marines, battle hardened veteran… was whining. I shouldn’t have to put into word how ridiculous this is. The competition was stupid enough, but the whining? Really? They lack all maturity, and behave nothing like they should. Now, I understand that they aren’t like to be as anti-social, and as serious as Spartan-II and IIIs, on account of them not being taken as children, and actually having a childhood. However, Spartan Is, like Johnson, were not childish. While Johnson would crack a good joke, or say something off hand, it always fit. It was never whiny, it was never immature. He knew the seriousness of the situation, and understood the risks and conditions. Point is, his character felt realistic (albeit the pinnacle of manliness), whereas the new Spartans do not.

Another problem is that the Spartans are generic. None of them stand out for the right reasons. If a characters most notable quality is how whiny he can be, you have failed as a character designer. Especially if he is supposed to be a badass super soldier. Now, they don’t need to be faceless characters, or incredibly developed. They just need to feel like they have some character. Noble team, for example; all of them felt unique. They felt like they were people, separate from one another. They were all different, vastly so. But their interactions, their comments, everything, gave you the idea that these people had seen combat. That they saw war, and they had killed enemies, and watched allies die.

More will be updated soon. I appreciate any helpful, or insightful discussion and even opposing opinions.

2

He wasn’t whining you know? He made a joke.

3

> 2533274944621319;2:
> He wasn’t whining you know? He made a joke.

“Oh come on! Crimson’s base can’t have had the defenses ours did!”

… Wasn’t a joke. Not sure if you completed the level or not, but he does not say it as a joke, he says it as an excuse. He’s complaining about Crimson being done first, and blaming it on the circumstances. So he’s whining. Even then, the fact that they take these missions like a joke tells me enough.

4

Congratulations, you just painted the entire Spartan-IV Program as childish because of the actions of pretty much two people on Fireteam Majestic. But I suppose when Kelly flips off a Sentinel or when the Gammas from Team Saber make dirty jokes with Veta Lopis that is the height of professionalism.

5

> 2533274812652989;4:
> Congratulations, you just painted the entire Spartan-IV Program as childish because of the actions of pretty much two people on Fireteam Majestic. But I suppose when Kelly flips off a Sentinel or when the Gammas from Team Saber make dirty jokes with Veta Lopis that is the height of professionalism.

Do I get an award, or just receive your sad attempt at scathing remarks? I suppose I shouldn’t have expected better. Though to your credit, I understand how difficult it can be to simply post your rebuttal, rather then starting off with a completely pompous remark but… Oh my, I believe I’ve just made myself a hypocrite… And that sarcasm doesn’t help at all.

Very well, let us continue then. I didn’t quite mention professionalism, only maturity and being serious when it calls for it. When Spartans are on a mission, from everything that’s been shown, they become lethal. Yes, there is banter, and some jokes told here and there, but often times it is quite cynical. Despite this, they still remain somewhat serious down to it. They don’t allow themselves to become distracted so that they can whine to their commander about how they had to fight more enemies, and that’s why they were the slower team. But I suppose that’s what you get when you start handing out genetic enhancements, and super armour like toothbrushes at the dentists office. Maybe what the Spartan-IVs are missing is a severe feeling of loss, and mortality. They think the missions are a game meant to decide who gets Teacher-erm-Commander Palmers attention. Oddly enough, they seem unaware of the risks, in most scenarios, and if they are aware they are so completely panicked that they become less effective at their jobs. Overall they don’t strike me as marines, let alone Spartans.

Though… perhaps it is something else. I’ll need further inquiry.

6

> 2533274916698000;5:
> > 2533274812652989;4:
> > Congratulations, you just painted the entire Spartan-IV Program as childish because of the actions of pretty much two people on Fireteam Majestic. But I suppose when Kelly flips off a Sentinel or when the Gammas from Team Saber make dirty jokes with Veta Lopis that is the height of professionalism.
>
>
> Do I get an award, or just receive your sad attempt at scathing remarks? I suppose I shouldn’t have expected better. Though to your credit, I understand how difficult it can be to simply post your rebuttal, rather then starting off with a completely pompous remark but… Oh my, I believe I’ve just made myself a hypocrite… And that sarcasm doesn’t help at all.
>
> Very well, let us continue then. I didn’t quite mention professionalism, only maturity and being serious when it calls for it. When Spartans are on a mission, from everything that’s been shown, they become lethal. Yes, there is banter, and some jokes told here and there, but often times it is quite cynical. Despite this, they still remain somewhat serious down to it. They don’t allow themselves to become distracted so that they can whine to their commander about how they had to fight more enemies, and that’s why they were the slower team. But I suppose that’s what you get when you start handing out genetic enhancements, and super armour like toothbrushes at the dentists office. Maybe what the Spartan-IVs are missing is a severe feeling of loss, and mortality. They think the missions are a game meant to decide who gets Teacher-erm-Commander Palmers attention. Oddly enough, they seem unaware of the risks, in most scenarios, and if they are aware they are so completely panicked that they become less effective at their jobs. Overall they don’t strike me as marines, let alone Spartans.
>
> Though… perhaps it is something else. I’ll need further inquiry.

You accuse the Spartan-IVs as a whole as childish and not serious because a few members of Fireteam Majestic, I’m sorry but I don’t suffer generalizations that well and folks in this community tend to see things that aren’t there, like Locke somehow being arrogant in Halo 5. The Spartan-IVs need a feeling of loss? What makes you think the entire Spartan-IV Program needs that? You seem so fixated on the errors Majestic made, yet were able to grow past AFTER Spartan Ops that you don’t see the bigger picture.

7

Clearly you have little interaction with military people, I know some brilliant people in the military that are as childish as a 5 year old and others who you’d think grew up as a stick in the mud.

I think the fact that they developed each character that they created with a quirky personally to me more accurate to the variety of people in the military. True there is a bunch of Spartans have zero personality because they are filler characters like the ODST units of Halo 2 and 3

8

Your problem stems from the remarks of one Spartan-IV, who, I might add, has been killed in action since. Move along people, just another Spartan-IV hate thread.

9

> 2535437652903765;8:
> Your problem stems from the remarks of one Spartan-IV, who, I might add, has been killed in action since. Move along people, just another Spartan-IV hate thread.

And he died bravely and selflessly in order to allow the delegations on Ealen VI to escape.

10

You do realize that it was even recognized by Dr. Halsey in spartan ops. Which means how spartan IV’s are, is intentional. Dr. Halsey sees them as children and can never recreate what she did which just makes it even more dramatic. Since they are handpicked, they feel entitled and better. But as Dr. Halsey said, not in verbatum, that they will never be Spartans. Btw, Spartan IV’s are people too.

11

> 2535409103705542;10:
> You do realize that it was even recognized by Dr. Halsey in spartan ops. Which means how spartan IV’s are, is intentional. Dr. Halsey sees them as children and can never recreate what she did which just makes it even more dramatic. Since they are handpicked, they feel entitled and better. But as Dr. Halsey said, not in verbatum, that they will never be Spartans. Btw, Spartan IV’s are people too.

She didn’t say they couldn’t be Spartans, but some are better suited at it than others. Even so, I don’t think the S-IVs need to be the S-IIs. The S-IVs represent the culmination of everything Halsey made and better mankind in the long-run. Now humans can be enhanced without crippling side-effects or worse and MJOLNIR armor can be made cheaper and yet still retain it’s quality. Are you going to have some who don’t live up to the Spartan name? Yes, but kidnapping children and using war orphans as disposable heroes aren’t viable anymore.

12

> 2533274812652989;11:
> > 2535409103705542;10:
> > You do realize that it was even recognized by Dr. Halsey in spartan ops. Which means how spartan IV’s are, is intentional. Dr. Halsey sees them as children and can never recreate what she did which just makes it even more dramatic. Since they are handpicked, they feel entitled and better. But as Dr. Halsey said, not in verbatum, that they will never be Spartans. Btw, Spartan IV’s are people too.
>
>
> She didn’t say they couldn’t be Spartans, but some are better suited at it than others. Even so, I don’t think the S-IVs need to be the S-IIs. The S-IVs represent the culmination of everything Halsey made and better mankind in the long-run. Now humans can be enhanced without crippling side-effects or worse and MJOLNIR armor can be made cheaper and yet still retain it’s quality. Are you going to have some who don’t live up to the Spartan name? Yes, but kidnapping children and using war orphans as disposable heroes aren’t viable anymore.

Wasn’t really word for word, its technically what she said. And yes I remember the line when she said some are closer than others. Its that saying that made me think her idea of a spartan is what Spartan IV’s will never be. I mention this well because OP doesn’t like how they are, even though its intentional. Its intentional because why make them like that? Of course they weren’t abducted nor were they war children and their augmentation was not as horrifying as the spartan II and III went through. So they were handpicked and they feel special and some feel entitled of course. However, it added to the story really, well mostly spartan ops. But with much of fireteam osiris, except for locke, they experienced probably the worse of the worse. Mostly glassing of planets which is funny. I don’t get why OP is fixated on a couple spartan’s who are whiny and competitive. Not all of them are like that.

13

I highly recommend everyone likes all of Halsey’s comments I already have.

14

> 2535409103705542;12:
> > 2533274812652989;11:
> > > 2535409103705542;10:
> > > You do realize that it was even recognized by Dr. Halsey in spartan ops. Which means how spartan IV’s are, is intentional. Dr. Halsey sees them as children and can never recreate what she did which just makes it even more dramatic. Since they are handpicked, they feel entitled and better. But as Dr. Halsey said, not in verbatum, that they will never be Spartans. Btw, Spartan IV’s are people too.
> >
> >
> > She didn’t say they couldn’t be Spartans, but some are better suited at it than others. Even so, I don’t think the S-IVs need to be the S-IIs. The S-IVs represent the culmination of everything Halsey made and better mankind in the long-run. Now humans can be enhanced without crippling side-effects or worse and MJOLNIR armor can be made cheaper and yet still retain it’s quality. Are you going to have some who don’t live up to the Spartan name? Yes, but kidnapping children and using war orphans as disposable heroes aren’t viable anymore.
>
>
> Wasn’t really word for word, its technically what she said. And yes I remember the line when she said some are closer than others. Its that saying that made me think her idea of a spartan is what Spartan IV’s will never be. I mention this well because OP doesn’t like how they are, even though its intentional. Its intentional because why make them like that? Of course they weren’t abducted nor were they war children and their augmentation was not as horrifying as the spartan II and III went through. So they were handpicked and they feel special and some feel entitled of course. However, it added to the story really, well mostly spartan ops. But with much of fireteam osiris, except for locke, they experienced probably the worse of the worse. Mostly glassing of planets which is funny. I don’t get why OP is fixated on a couple spartan’s who are whiny and competitive. Not all of them are like that.

I don’t understand why the OP fixates on it either. The S-IVs are meant to be different, they are normal people when you get right down to it. You’ve got people being recruited who are highly experienced or younger people who show potential. Really, Madsen is the one I’m really worried about since he got in because of nepotism, yet even then he grew in the Escalation comics. The way the S-IVs act reminds me a lot of the Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers (the book). Yeah, you’ve got some who are cocky, some who are gruff, some who you ask how the heck they became MI, but at the end of the day they get their job done and soldier on.

15

What always bothers me with threads like these is that people seem to forget that the Spartan-IVs had to survive through the Human-Covenant War as normal humans. And that is not an easy thing to do.

16

> 2535437652903765;15:
> What always bothers me with threads like these is that people seem to forget that the Spartan-IVs had to survive through the Human-Covenant War as normal humans. And that is not an easy thing to do.

2 members of fireteam osiris faced glassing of planets. Vale was stranded in space? Who cares about locke. He had a desk job, technically… LOL Writing a dossier to kill the Thel Vadam. Yeahh OP has definitely not seen everything.

17

Wow, both the OP and Halsey seem to be ignoring the fact that they’re two sides of the same coin. Halsey on many times has pointed out that the childishness of S-IV’s isn’t exclusive to them and barters people for making the example of Majestic yet ignores the fact that she uses a few moments of a couple out of the hundreds of spartan II’s and III’s to show that the other groups to have the same tendencies.

You’re both wrong actually everyone in this thread seems to be wrong about the characters The simple and obvious truth is that 343i wrote characters that they thought would be liked same as Eric Nylund in the past and that’s what came out. Good or bad they we’re made with the best intentions and that’s how they we’re.

Bashing someone for having a small pool of evidence then supporting a same pool of evidence doesn’t help especially when you seemingly only wish to bash them. Instead of fighting how about you two try to talk this out, if anyone’s being immature here it’s the amount of know it all’s here trying to out nerd each other.

On topic, as Halsey should of said, many spartan IV’s we know of I.E Shadow, Crimson, Domino, and Osiris all aren’t children playing with their parents weapons. they’re cold and calculative. Hell, Crimson never even speaks and get more -Yoink- done on Requiem then MC did.

On the opposite point the OP is right that when you want to drive a character forward you have to do it properly when you have had amazing characters like Johnson in the series before. There is something to live up to but instead of doing that 343i would rather just kill off (Paul Demarco) force (Sarah Palmer) or ignore (literally every squad from Spartan Ops) their potential characters and start over or force horrible characterization changes that the person has clearly displayed before in the past having no interest of doing.

Personally I thought Demarco wasn’t a bad character. In combat he obviously cared for the safety of his troops by how he’d rather just have Majestic fall back and let Crimson clean up then put throne Madison and Grant in danger

Palmer on the other hand started off sworer got worse, got even worse again somehow did it again (really WTF) and then somewhat became a person in Halo 5 but again she kind of defied her whole (orders are orders thing by going back to Sangheilios, I remember her saying Lasky wanted her to leave after Halsey’s work was said and done.

Also I don’t like the idea of this new SIV squad coming out with the next book release since we literally have a dozen spartan IV teams from Sops and don’t need more until…we need more.

18

> 2535409103705542;16:
> > 2535437652903765;15:
> > What always bothers me with threads like these is that people seem to forget that the Spartan-IVs had to survive through the Human-Covenant War as normal humans. And that is not an easy thing to do.
>
>
> 2 members of fireteam osiris faced glassing of planets. Vale was stranded in space? Who cares about locke. He had a desk job, technically… LOL Writing a dossier to kill the Thel Vadam. Yeahh OP has definitely not seen everything.

I think Vale was stranded in space as a child, and Locke was still an ONI assassin.

19

> 2533274916698000;5:
> > 2533274812652989;4:
> > Congratulations, you just painted the entire Spartan-IV Program as childish because of the actions of pretty much two people on Fireteam Majestic. But I suppose when Kelly flips off a Sentinel or when the Gammas from Team Saber make dirty jokes with Veta Lopis that is the height of professionalism.
>
>
> Do I get an award, or just receive your sad attempt at scathing remarks? I suppose I shouldn’t have expected better. Though to your credit, I understand how difficult it can be to simply post your rebuttal, rather then starting off with a completely pompous remark but… Oh my, I believe I’ve just made myself a hypocrite… And that sarcasm doesn’t help at all.
>
> Very well, let us continue then. I didn’t quite mention professionalism, only maturity and being serious when it calls for it. When Spartans are on a mission, from everything that’s been shown, they become lethal. Yes, there is banter, and some jokes told here and there, but often times it is quite cynical. Despite this, they still remain somewhat serious down to it. They don’t allow themselves to become distracted so that they can whine to their commander about how they had to fight more enemies, and that’s why they were the slower team. But I suppose that’s what you get when you start handing out genetic enhancements, and super armour like toothbrushes at the dentists office. Maybe what the Spartan-IVs are missing is a severe feeling of loss, and mortality. They think the missions are a game meant to decide who gets Teacher-erm-Commander Palmers attention. Oddly enough, they seem unaware of the risks, in most scenarios, and if they are aware they are so completely panicked that they become less effective at their jobs. Overall they don’t strike me as marines, let alone Spartans.
>
> Though… perhaps it is something else. I’ll need further inquiry.

How’s he being pompous?u gave examples of how spartan 4’s act childish and he gave u examples of spartan 2s and 3s doing similar things please explain in what world u live in how that makes him pompous

20

In my opinion, the issue I’ve seen with the Spartan IV’s is that a lot of these characters have already lived their lives. They weren’t indoctrinated as children. They already have personalities that are far more pronounced than the personalities of the Spartan II’s and Spartan III’s, which what the player base was already familiar with.

That being said however, Fire Team Majestic probably wasn’t the best way to really introduce your new Spartans. I think when you really get to it, it has less to do with professionalism and more to do with DeMarco having a really unattractive personality. He’s the tool who peaked in High School and found a way to relive his glory days (At least that’s how he originally appeared to me). That doesn’t mean that the character didn’t grow (because he does here and there), but hey, first impressions.

Vale is cheating in a sense. She’s obviously the “If we were still kidnapping promising children she would be on the list” member of the Spartan IV project. Just read up on her background. Highly intelligent, athletic, top marks on when she took the Spartan IV test? I’d be willing to bet that she’d end up on the “Genetic Perfection” list for Spartan II’s. Hell, she was more or less stranded in space and thought “Well, might as well learn an Alien Language.” She speaks it so well that it catches Elites off guard and they don’t immediately comprehend it. She even has a vast and thorough understanding of their history and culture.

Locke and Tanaka… both of them seemed really dry personality wise, which is disappointing. To me, Locke comes of too serious, to an almost unbelievable extent. It just doesn’t seem natural. But they also didn’t do the character any favors between Nightfall, the advertisement campaign and Halo 5. As for Tanaka, you have a character that Survived a Planet being glassed… and that’s about it. While that should be enough, it just didn’t play out right, and she ended up being the most bland member of Osiris.

Buck though. Big Buck fan. I’ve like him since ODST and he’s the perfect example of a Spartan IV already having a personality. He’s probably seen more combat than the rest of Osiris combined, seen more planets glassed than he cares to count (Reach included), has a real love life with actual relationship problems, has not only lost numerous friends, but numerous teams, is aware of the fact that his home planet was turned into a Covenant hunting ground and that his family was probably hunted down and eaten alive by Jackals, and has been betrayed by someone he considered family. And it shows, all of it, to one degree or another.

It’s less of a “professionalism” issue and more of a “our experiences shapes us” kind of deal. At least that’s how I see it.