Spartan II Elitism (And Master Cheif)

Community Halo Universe
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It baffles me how much people just go bat-crazy over Spartan II’s, claiming they’re the best and no way that the III’s and IV’s could hold their own against these mighty god-like figures. Without even reading ANY of the books/comics mentioning III’s or IV’s. I dare any of you Spartan II fanboys to read the first chapter of Ghost of Onyx and see how freaking amazing the Spartan III’s are, Without MJOLNIR btw!

And don’t get me started on master chief, people are absolutely sure that halo itself would die if anyone else steps into chiefs shoes, and this is supposed to be a HALO fansite, not just a John-117 fanboy cesspool. Halo has so much more fascinating lore besides John.

I hope that Halo 6 is severely lacking chief and mains Lockes team or even Spartan Thorne, who I hope makes an actual appearance in the future games.

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[deleted]

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Exactly

Wheres cobra, or should I say Halsey at to back me up?

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Lol Inciting a Flame war is a sure fire way to get a thread locked

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Don’t get me wrong, I love S-II’s and the MC and Kurt in particular but I like the S-III’s more. The S-II fanboyism is pretty strong on Waypoint, but it seems like a lot of people just don’t know much about the III’s. They’re as capable (if not more so, because of the better training) as the S-II’s, they’ve done tons of crazy feats without MJOLNIR, their augmentations are exactly the same as the S-II procedure but they work on a wider (but still small) portion of the population. If an S-III was equipped the same as an S-II they would be just as effective, if not more so.

I’m not that big of an S-IV fan though, I personally think the S-III program should have been continued. But I can at least admit that an S-IV is capable of going toe to toe with an S-II (or III) if the IV has GEN2 armor and the older gen Spartan has GEN1, that’s the whole point of GEN2. Something I would like to know though is if the GEN2 suits given to older Spartan personnel gives them the extra boosts it does for the IV’s, because if so they’d be even more crazy effective.

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Educate yourselves on The Spartan III’s people, read Ghost of Onyx

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I have, several times. And I disagree with you that III’s are better. You could make the argument that in certain scenarios they’d perform on par, but they’re not better.

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Damn right. I’m with you!

Except with the part about Thorne, he’s the blandest character in Halo…

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Why not canonize what is already headcanon for so many fans? Just add some hints in the games and books to confirm we’re right.

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> 2533274924007631;10:
> > 2535411711152989;7:
> > I have, several times. And I disagree with you that III’s are better. You could make the argument that in certain scenarios they’d perform on par, but they’re not better.
>
>
> And canon and I disagree with you. Most Spartan IIIs are generally on par because while there genetics might not be Cat 2 genes(Team Saber weren’t Cat 2’s even though they wer on par with Blueteam), the were close enough that their superior training brings them to that level. Cat 2 Spartan IIIs are basically Spartan IIs with superior training. So, it’s very safe to say they are better.

Okay, I’ll grant you the Cat-II’s as being on par with the other II’s at induction, but what superior training are you talking about? The only aspect that is “better” that I’ve even read about is better unit cohesion, i.e. working together as one team rather than operating singularly or in smaller fireteams.

Don’t just repeat that their training was better, quantify it.

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> 2535411711152989;11:
> > 2533274924007631;10:
> > > 2535411711152989;7:
> > > I have, several times. And I disagree with you that III’s are better. You could make the argument that in certain scenarios they’d perform on par, but they’re not better.
> >
> >
> > And canon and I disagree with you. Most Spartan IIIs are generally on par because while there genetics might not be Cat 2 genes(Team Saber weren’t Cat 2’s even though they wer on par with Blueteam), the were close enough that their superior training brings them to that level. Cat 2 Spartan IIIs are basically Spartan IIs with superior training. So, it’s very safe to say they are better.
>
>
> Okay, I’ll grant you the Cat-II’s as being on par with the other II’s at induction, but what superior training are you talking about? The only aspect that is “better” that I’ve even read about is better unit cohesion, i.e. working together as one team rather than operating singularly or in smaller fireteams.
>
> Don’t just repeat that their training was better, quantify it.

I kind of agree, doesnt the 2s first hand experience negate the better training. Atleast for the surviving ones. My opinion on the whole thing is that 2s are generally better, but some 4s and 3s have potential to be just as capable

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> 2535411711152989;11:
> > 2533274924007631;10:
> > > 2535411711152989;7:
> > > I have, several times. And I disagree with you that III’s are better. You could make the argument that in certain scenarios they’d perform on par, but they’re not better.
> >
> >
> > And canon and I disagree with you. Most Spartan IIIs are generally on par because while there genetics might not be Cat 2 genes(Team Saber weren’t Cat 2’s even though they wer on par with Blueteam), the were close enough that their superior training brings them to that level. Cat 2 Spartan IIIs are basically Spartan IIs with superior training. So, it’s very safe to say they are better.
>
>
> Okay, I’ll grant you the Cat-II’s as being on par with the other II’s at induction, but what superior training are you talking about? The only aspect that is “better” that I’ve even read about is better unit cohesion, i.e. working together as one team rather than operating singularly or in smaller fireteams.
>
> Don’t just repeat that their training was better, quantify it.

Kurt stated that he’d make the training harsher than what he went through.

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It’s like people are in denial to the fact that there are Spartans on par/better than the II’s lol That spartan II elitism is a terrible syndrome

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> 2535411711152989;11:
> > 2533274924007631;10:
> > > 2535411711152989;7:
> > > I have, several times. And I disagree with you that III’s are better. You could make the argument that in certain scenarios they’d perform on par, but they’re not better.
> >
> >
> > And canon and I disagree with you. Most Spartan IIIs are generally on par because while there genetics might not be Cat 2 genes(Team Saber weren’t Cat 2’s even though they wer on par with Blueteam), the were close enough that their superior training brings them to that level. Cat 2 Spartan IIIs are basically Spartan IIs with superior training. So, it’s very safe to say they are better.
>
>
> Okay, I’ll grant you the Cat-II’s as being on par with the other II’s at induction, but what superior training are you talking about? The only aspect that is “better” that I’ve even read about is better unit cohesion, i.e. working together as one team rather than operating singularly or in smaller fireteams.
>
> Don’t just repeat that their training was better, quantify it.

Ghosts of Onyx states that SPARTAN-IIIs had the best training the UNSC had to offer. Their training was based on the original SPARTAN-II training, but improved upon significantly and with each new company saw even more refinements. Kurt-051 considered Gamma Company to be the “finest Spartans ever”.

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I have read most of the books, and read a lot of the lore, and I would have to say that a Spartan IV would have serious difficulties against a Spartan II and III. The II’s and III’s were trained from the age of 6 and have much better training. My favorite Charecters are Lucy and Fred. I do however like the fact that the IV’s are adults taken from different Armed forces units instead of children.

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Ever since I first read Ghosts of Onyx Spartan IIIs have been my favorite.

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> 2533274871929668;16:
> It’s like people are in denial to the fact that there are Spartans on par/better than the II’s lol That spartan II elitism is a terrible syndrome

Spartan-IIIs have received arguably better augmentations (same augmentations, but a near-0 to 0-death rate for each company produced).
Spartan-IIIs received reportedly better training, courtesy of Kurt and Mendez’s beliefs.
Spartan-IIIs come from a more wide gene pool.
Spartan-IIIs were often exposed to war before recruitment.
Spartan-IIIs completed suicide missions no other group could have completed.

These are all facts or suggested facts granted to us by Ghosts of Onyx. And I’ll agree, they’re capable of being a Spartan-II’s equal.

I could be incorrect when I state this, but I believe that the Onyx Base might not have been as well or consistently supplied as Reach when it came to personnel and the needs of the Spartan-IIIs as individuals. This is entirely conjecture and I have no evidence to back it up, but you can’t exactly funnel a crap tonne of personnel to Onyx without anybody else noticing, especially when the planet’s location is Top Secret. In Reach, the military stronghold of the UNSC, you essentially have a blank check in terms of personnel, I would imagine. You’re at the heart of the military and are never for want as opposed to a Top Secret military research world where supplies have to be carefully funnelled through.

Why is this of relevance?

Personal attention and focus on each individual Spartan. They may have had better overall techniques, but it’s a lot harder to serve 300 Spartans’ individual needs and specifications than it is to serve 70-75 Spartans during training, especially if the above conjecture has any grounding and Onyx’s staff were a little more overwhelmed than Halsey’s Reach-based Spartan-II program. This conversely would likely mean that while specialities would form within the Spartan-IIIs, they might for the most part just be more well-rounded soldiers overall than specifically honed to perfection in those areas each individual might excel at.

It’s the deployment that matters and that is where the IIIs do, in fact, fall behind if you would ask me. Obviously we never saw more than a touch above 30 Spartan-IIs complete augmentations, against the 300+ successful augments graduating a Spartan-III company. But put these Spartan-III teams pit against a Spartan-II team, who above-and-beyond has far more field experience and, even in spite of field experience, more general experience overall (because time IS a factor of experience - there’s a reason professionals in sports, games, cinema, etc. etc. dedicate many hours of their lives outside of scheduled performances). Spartan-IIs will likely win in a squad-to-squad engagement because their experiences and unit cohesion far excels that of any surviving Spartan-IIIs we know of, and even those who have passed away.

I do not think the Spartan-IIIs are bad. I do not think of myself as a Spartan-II elitist. However I recognize, from all the canon (and I’ve read/consumed just about every piece of available canon), that Spartan-IIs are more likely to outperform Spartan-IIIs than vice versa if they were to compete. The unit cohesion and field experience are huge components to being effective - augmentations and training are only half of it. While S-IIIs have delivered great results, from those intimate interactions we’ve received with squads of Gamma Company, it’s clear their unit cohesion isn’t always as strong or consistent, and that’s what’ll get you killed on the battlefield. Both Ghosts of Onyx and Last Light contain ample examples of how Spartan-III unit cohesion, due to a lack of nearly as much field experience and personal focus as Spartan-II candidates received, suffers in comparison to Spartan-IIs, which overall suggests Spartan-II fireteams are more effective than Spartan-III fireteams at this time.

Is it possible a grizzled, veteran Spartan-III fireteam surviving to the same ages as the Spartan-IIs could go toe to toe with them or even be better than them? Certainly, but until such a time comes forward we have no evidence to suggest it.