Spartan-II clones and their "secrecy "

Ever since I read Glasslands months ago, this particular subject has been a real thorn in my side. When Parangosky and Halsey come face to face at the end, Margaret says that the Spartan-II flash clones were done in secret and she didn’t know and that is one of the reasons she hates Halsey.

This is nothing new for those of us who read Glasslands, but one fundamental question remains for me: Since when have the clones been secret? I’ve went back to other sources of canon to see if such a thing was even mentioned, but I couldn’t find anything to back that up.

To me, it just seems like a Traviss mistake that 343 decided to let happen. I mean, if there was prior support for this, that’s one thing. But really, it just seems like a contrived reason to justify Maggie’s hatred.

Well it’s a known thing that Traviss has a habit of not doing any research about the universe she’s writing.Tbh Glasslands is the only Halo book I could never finish because I just found it boring and there was a couple things that made me scratch my head. Like Mendez hating on Halsey or Lucy flat out punching Halsey as hard as she could and Halsey not being dead or Blue Team not doing anything.

> Well it’s a known thing that Traviss has a habit of not doing any research about the universe she’s writing.Tbh Glasslands is the only Halo book I could never finish because I just found it boring and there was a couple things that made me scratch my head. Like Mendez hating on Halsey or Lucy flat out punching Halsey as hard as she could and Halsey not being dead or Blue Team not doing anything.

Yeah it had it’s flaws, which was disappointing since I liked her short story Human Weakness. I just don’t see the justification for the clones now being secret.

I was under the impression the whole process of the SPARTAN-II program was kept a secret. That probably includes the information of usage of flash clones.

Also, I’m pretty sure Big Maggie (lol) was taking a stab at Halsey’s conscience.

> I was under the impression the whole process of the SPARTAN-II program was kept a secret. That probably includes the information of usage of flash clones.
>
> Also, I’m pretty sure Big Maggie (lol) was taking a stab at Halsey’s conscience.

Well yes it would all be a secret of course, but it still required a lot of resources and manpower overall. What Glasslands implies is that Halsey did the flash clones herself or with a small group and nobody knew about it. Which I call BS on.

> > I was under the impression the whole process of the SPARTAN-II program was kept a secret. That probably includes the information of usage of flash clones.
> >
> > Also, I’m pretty sure Big Maggie (lol) was taking a stab at Halsey’s conscience.
>
> Well yes it would all be a secret of course, but it still required a lot of resources and manpower overall. What Glasslands implies is that Halsey did the flash clones herself or with a small group and nobody knew about it. Which I call BS on.

Judging by the fact that no innocent soul knows what the procedures of the SPARTAN-II programs are, I’m pretty sure they kept that on the down low as well.

But on the other hand Biggie Maggie was a pretty high official and should have known about it, so I think the flash clones were made for Halsey’s personal or conscientious reasons. I also recall the fact that Halsey was able to create a clone of herself (by herself iirc) during the construction of Cortana.

> > > I was under the impression the whole process of the SPARTAN-II program was kept a secret. That probably includes the information of usage of flash clones.
> > >
> > > Also, I’m pretty sure Big Maggie (lol) was taking a stab at Halsey’s conscience.
> >
> > Well yes it would all be a secret of course, but it still required a lot of resources and manpower overall. What Glasslands implies is that Halsey did the flash clones herself or with a small group and nobody knew about it. Which I call BS on.
>
> Judging by the fact that no innocent soul knows what the procedures of the SPARTAN-II programs are, I’m pretty sure they kept that on the down low as well.
>
> But on the other hand Biggie Maggie was a pretty high official and should have known about it, so I think the flash clones were made for Halsey’s personal or conscientious reasons. I also recall the fact that Halsey was able to create a clone of herself (by herself iirc) during the construction of Cortana.

Yes, but I believe she had a few trusted individuals and this was well after the Spartan-II program. Even then, ONI doesn’t have much room to complain. Making Cortana did break ethical laws, but is ONI ethical? No.

The flash clones were made at the height of the program and shipped out to the families. ONI had to know about them as Halsey helped hunt down some of the S-IIs who left, like Daisy and Ralph.

I’m just saying, looking at other parts of the lore, nothing suggested the S-IIs clones were treated any differently in terms of secrecy than with the main project.

> > > > I was under the impression the whole process of the SPARTAN-II program was kept a secret. That probably includes the information of usage of flash clones.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I’m pretty sure Big Maggie (lol) was taking a stab at Halsey’s conscience.
> > >
> > > Well yes it would all be a secret of course, but it still required a lot of resources and manpower overall. What Glasslands implies is that Halsey did the flash clones herself or with a small group and nobody knew about it. Which I call BS on.
> >
> > Judging by the fact that no innocent soul knows what the procedures of the SPARTAN-II programs are, I’m pretty sure they kept that on the down low as well.
> >
> > But on the other hand Biggie Maggie was a pretty high official and should have known about it, so I think the flash clones were made for Halsey’s personal or conscientious reasons. I also recall the fact that Halsey was able to create a clone of herself (by herself iirc) during the construction of Cortana.
>
> Yes, but I believe she had a few trusted individuals and this was well after the Spartan-II program. Even then, ONI doesn’t have much room to complain. Making Cortana did break ethical laws, but is ONI ethical? No.
>
> The flash clones were made at the height of the program and shipped out to the families. ONI had to know about them as Halsey helped hunt down some of the S-IIs who left, like Daisy and Ralph.
>
> I’m just saying, looking at other parts of the lore, nothing suggested the S-IIs clones were treated any differently in terms of secrecy than with the main project.

That makes sense, specially since Maggie was made out as ONI’s grim reaper - that she’s cold and ruthless. Maybe she was just cranky from old age? LOL

I, too, was starting to wonder why she got so worked up with this information.

> > Well it’s a known thing that Traviss has a habit of not doing any research about the universe she’s writing.Tbh Glasslands is the only Halo book I could never finish because I just found it boring and there was a couple things that made me scratch my head. Like Mendez hating on Halsey or Lucy flat out punching Halsey as hard as she could and Halsey not being dead or Blue Team not doing anything.
>
> Yeah it had it’s flaws, which was disappointing since I liked her short story Human Weakness. I just don’t see the justification for the clones now being secret.

I also liked Human Weaknesses so that just further my disappointment with the book.

I imagine that later installments in the series will go into detail about these issues between Halsey and Parangosky. The was always tension between these two (it’s evident as early as The Fall of Reach).

The way I see it, Halsey laid out her plans for the program, but left out the part about the clones because, for a time, there was no way to copy the memories from one subject to the clone. However, when she made this breakthrough, she added this without necessarily getting full approval. It’s also possible she went to Admiral Stanforth directly, going around and cutting out Parangosky about her ideas.

> > > > I was under the impression the whole process of the SPARTAN-II program was kept a secret. That probably includes the information of usage of flash clones.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I’m pretty sure Big Maggie (lol) was taking a stab at Halsey’s conscience.
> > >
> > > Well yes it would all be a secret of course, but it still required a lot of resources and manpower overall. What Glasslands implies is that Halsey did the flash clones herself or with a small group and nobody knew about it. Which I call BS on.
> >
> > Judging by the fact that no innocent soul knows what the procedures of the SPARTAN-II programs are, I’m pretty sure they kept that on the down low as well.
> >
> > But on the other hand Biggie Maggie was a pretty high official and should have known about it, so I think the flash clones were made for Halsey’s personal or conscientious reasons. I also recall the fact that Halsey was able to create a clone of herself (by herself iirc) during the construction of Cortana.
>
> Yes, but I believe she had a few trusted individuals and this was well after the Spartan-II program. Even then, ONI doesn’t have much room to complain. Making Cortana did break ethical laws, but is ONI ethical? No.
>
> The flash clones were made at the height of the program and shipped out to the families. ONI had to know about them as Halsey helped hunt down some of the S-IIs who left, like Daisy and Ralph.
>
> I’m just saying, looking at other parts of the lore, nothing suggested the S-IIs clones were treated any differently in terms of secrecy than with the main project.

I didn’t take it as nobody knew about it, I took it as the clones weren’t approved, and Halsey used money and resources to make them without getting approval. From what I interpreted Maggie was saying the clones weren’t needed to get the Spartan program running so it was unneccesary.

And I honestly just think she was pissed about Corana because of how advanced she is, and Maggie doesn’t have a AI like that. I got (from Glasslands anyway) that Maggie even at 90 something, is like a giant child - Thats mine don’t touch it/Halsey got a Cortana AI and I didn’t-. I get the moral implications of flash cloning a person, but I thought Halsey simply flash cloned her brain to get Cortana. That isn’t really morally bad since a brain needs a body to survive.

> Ever since I read Glasslands months ago, this particular subject has been a real thorn in my side. When Parangosky and Halsey come face to face at the end, Margaret says that the Spartan-II flash clones were done in secret and she didn’t know and that is one of the reasons she hates Halsey.
>
> This is nothing new for those of us who read Glasslands, but one fundamental question remains for me: Since when have the clones been secret? I’ve went back to other sources of canon to see if such a thing was even mentioned, but I couldn’t find anything to back that up.
>
> To me, it just seems like a Traviss mistake that 343 decided to let happen. I mean, if there was prior support for this, that’s one thing. But really, it just seems like a contrived reason to justify Maggie’s hatred.

Parangosky would lie like crazy. In fact she would probably lie that she didn’t authorize the Spartan-II program, and she did authorize it.

… It’s not like big Maggie was a crazy psychopath that enjoyed torturing others, she did what had to be done and she accepted that, but not more. That’s what I see.

I’m pretty sure even cold as ice she wouldn’t go and watch children get tortured for fun.

> Judging by the fact that no innocent soul knows what the procedures of the SPARTAN-II programs are, I’m pretty sure they kept that on the down low as well.
>
> But on the other hand Biggie Maggie was a pretty high official and should have known about it, so I think the flash clones were made for Halsey’s personal or conscientious reasons. I also recall the fact that Halsey was able to create a clone of herself (by herself iirc) during the construction of Cortana.

No offense, but it looks like you might be misunderstanding what Cobra’s question is and what this thread is about…I could be wrong too, but I don’t think so, or I could just be misreading your post. It looks to me that Cobra is asking why Parangosky, the head of ONI, wouldn’t know about one of the key features/points of expenditure on an ONI project. She should know about that sort of thing in the Spartan Program considering she has to approve the budget.

Simply cloning herself is different than cloning and distributing 75+ kids all around the galaxy. One, or just a couple, clones are easy to hide or keep hidden, hiding the fact that you clone upwards of 75 people and then left them back with their parents again, is something that is not. I think that part in Glasslands was just Traviss not really properly researching the Spartan Project and trying to find something to make useless drama.

> Simply cloning herself is different than cloning and distributing 75+ kids all around the galaxy. One, or just a couple, clones are easy to hide or keep hidden, hiding the fact that you clone upwards of 75 people and then left them back with their parents again, is something that is not. I think that part in Glasslands was just Traviss not really properly researching the Spartan Project and trying to find something to make useless drama.

Where is Traviss not doing the research here?

Is it that Parangosky should know about the flash cloned kids? Because she does know that, she’s mad that Halsey didn’t seek her approval for it.

> > Simply cloning herself is different than cloning and distributing 75+ kids all around the galaxy. One, or just a couple, clones are easy to hide or keep hidden, hiding the fact that you clone upwards of 75 people and then left them back with their parents again, is something that is not. I think that part in Glasslands was just Traviss not really properly researching the Spartan Project and trying to find something to make useless drama.
>
> Where is Traviss not doing the research here?
>
> Is it that Parangosky should know about the flash cloned kids? Because she does know that, she’s mad that Halsey didn’t seek her approval for it.

But where is past lore is it ever stated the flash clones were some rouge element in the program?

> > > Simply cloning herself is different than cloning and distributing 75+ kids all around the galaxy. One, or just a couple, clones are easy to hide or keep hidden, hiding the fact that you clone upwards of 75 people and then left them back with their parents again, is something that is not. I think that part in Glasslands was just Traviss not really properly researching the Spartan Project and trying to find something to make useless drama.
> >
> > Where is Traviss not doing the research here?
> >
> > Is it that Parangosky should know about the flash cloned kids? Because she does know that, she’s mad that Halsey didn’t seek her approval for it.
>
> But where is past lore is it ever stated the flash clones were some rouge element in the program?

Thats a great point, Traviss just seemed to add it to make so kind of conflict between Halsey and Maggie. It’s a pretty poor one as well. They could have just stuck with Maggie hated her for whatever reason, and used the stealing the Spartans to jail her or whatever.

> Thats a great point, Traviss just seemed to add it to make so kind of conflict between Halsey and Maggie. It’s a pretty poor one as well. They could have just stuck with Maggie hated her for whatever reason, and used the <mark>stealing the Spartans to jail her or whatever.</mark>

Maggie can’t talk back in that regard seeing as she detained Blue Team and had Fred interrogated about what happened on Reach WHILE the Covenant were laying waste to Earth.

> > Thats a great point, Traviss just seemed to add it to make so kind of conflict between Halsey and Maggie. It’s a pretty poor one as well. They could have just stuck with Maggie hated her for whatever reason, and used the <mark>stealing the Spartans to jail her or whatever.</mark>
>
> Maggie can’t talk back in that regard seeing as she detained Blue Team and had Fred interrogated about what happened on Reach WHILE the Covenant were laying waste to Earth.

Military wise even though it was a piss poor call, cause they definitely could have used those Spartans. It isn’t illegal, especially for someone so high up in the food chain. Halsey is a civilian contractor, that essentially lured the Spartans to Onyx to hide them. Which I am fine with.

However, say, The commander of the American forces in Iraq calls back a Delta Force attachment during combat. Yes, poor call, but not illegal. Now say I’m a contarctor over there, and I lure a delta force attachment away from battle for whatever reason, I’m screwed.

> > > Simply cloning herself is different than cloning and distributing 75+ kids all around the galaxy. One, or just a couple, clones are easy to hide or keep hidden, hiding the fact that you clone upwards of 75 people and then left them back with their parents again, is something that is not. I think that part in Glasslands was just Traviss not really properly researching the Spartan Project and trying to find something to make useless drama.
> >
> > Where is Traviss not doing the research here?
> >
> > Is it that Parangosky should know about the flash cloned kids? Because she does know that, she’s mad that Halsey didn’t seek her approval for it.
>
> But where is past lore is it ever stated the flash clones were some rouge element in the program?

The more important thing is that it was never said or implied that they weren’t. Past lore that discusses the flash clones does it only from the perspective of the Spartan-II Program, not all of ONI.

Yeah Traviss made this up but it’s not like it contradicts anything. In fact I think it’s a reasonable expansion on Halsey’s misgivings about the Spartan-II Program that Nylund wrote about but still lines up with the relative moral certainty Halsey had in the early days of the program. That’s just my opinion, but the point is that it doesn’t indicate a lack of research because as I said it’s not contradictory.