Spartan Abilities are fine, just not accomodated.

Games Halo Infinite
#1

Halo 5’s mechanics were clearly an experiment, but the community has proven they have potential. The supposed problems they bring are more like symptoms of how they’re improperly accomodated. Issues regarding map design, weapon tuning, spawning frequencies, etc.

Despite many people’s distaste for the new abilities, they are a great way for Halo to have some natural progression without changing its general formula, the rest of Halo 5 just wasn’t designed well enough to complement them. They simply add to the mechanics that are already there, and removing them is simply a regressive choice whether you’re for or against.

Infinite can very well capitalize on Halo 5’s triumphs and failures by improving what they already are, not removing them.

#2

they’re fine for halo 5 but I don’t want to see the same abilities just copied over to infinite. if 343 needs abilities to return they should remove some or experiment with different abilities so that infinite doesn’t feel like a copy of halo 5. in all honesty though, I’d rather bring back the equipment mechanic from halo 3. keep clamber though, that one’s pretty useful and doesn’t ruin the game.

#3

I want the spartan abilities to stay as well, minus spartan charge though.

#4

> 2533274796080930;3:
> I want the spartan abilities to stay as well, minus spartan charge though.

Agreed, though it actually exists to further balance sprint, believe it or not.

If you could sprint into someone and double melee them, it wouldn’t be very fun.

#5

> 2533274889282194;2:
> they’re fine for halo 5 but I don’t want to see the same abilities just copied over to infinite. if 343 needs abilities to return they should remove some or experiment with different abilities so that infinite doesn’t feel like a copy of halo 5. in all honesty though, I’d rather bring back the equipment mechanic from halo 3. keep clamber though, that one’s pretty useful and doesn’t ruin the game.

I certainly wouldn’t want Infinite to be a carbon copy of Halo 5, otherwise they’d be indifferentiable.

I honestly see the gameplay between 2 and 3 to be pretty intagible from one another except with notable differences like the introduction of equipment, the return of the assault rifle, and other weapon tuning, but at their core, they play exactly alike.

#6

> 2533274870445963;1:
> Halo 5’s mechanics were clearly an experiment, but the community has proven they have potential.

Source? If anythinh, the community has shown that SA/AA s are a controverse topic.

> The supposed problems they bring are more like symptoms of how they’re improperly accomodated. Issues regarding map design, weapon tuning, spawning frequencies, etc.

again: what is your source for that claim?

> they are a great way for Halo to have some natural progression without changing its general formula

that is just your own personal oppinion and it has been object of many discussions

> Infinite can very well capitalize on Halo 5’s triumphs and failures by improving what they already are, not removing them.

I kinda agree, some things could potentially work if improved, some do not have a place in Halo (IMO)

#7

If spartan charge required a charge up time similar to ground pound, during which you can’t turn direction, then the abilities would be fine as they are.

#8

Abilities & sprint need to go for the most part. They can stay for WZ/BTB. I think that would be a good balance.

#9

> 2533274889282194;2:
> they’re fine for halo 5 but I don’t want to see the same abilities just copied over to infinite. if 343 needs abilities to return they should remove some or experiment with different abilities so that infinite doesn’t feel like a copy of halo 5. in all honesty though, I’d rather bring back the equipment mechanic from halo 3. keep clamber though, that one’s pretty useful and doesn’t ruin the game.

This would be great. Get rid of stupid abilities and add equipment back in. Imo sprint isn’t needed if the movement speed is increased.

#10

> 2614366390849210;7:
> If spartan charge required a charge up time similar to ground pound, during which you can’t turn direction, then the abilities would be fine as they are.

I’ve actually thought of a few ways Spartan Charge can be improved without it’s removal. A sort of rework, if you will. I mentioned in an earlier reply that Spartan Charge basically exists to further balance sprint by preventing someone from double meleeing (efficiently, at least).

I thought Spartan Charge can be improved by:

·Reducing the damage to basic melee damage.
·Keeping the user in first-person with a more unique animation.
·GREATLY increase the end lag, so it can’t be quickly followed up with cheap automatic weapons or another melee by increasing the risk factor in using Spartan Charge but it can’t secure kills as quick as double meleeing without sprint. So there’s a trade-off and choice to be made.

However, a new issue can be met that renders THIS Spartan Charge practically useless when you can stop sprinting and double melee instead. So as a counter-buff:
·Increase the range and speed at which Spartan Charge occurs.

Because the current Spartan Charge offers too much of an advantage for the user and less options for the victim to counter it, this is the sort of rework I’d like to see.

I’d like to see improvements to Halo 5 WITHOUT removing anything.

#11

I don’t see why removing things is so taboo now when previous games have shown us that removing things work just fine when warranted.

Halo 5’s very existence can be given in part due to the removal of half the Armor Abilities and things like Halo 4’s flinch. we could have fine-tuned Regeneration Field to be perfect after its 2 soft iterations, but at the end of the day they opted to remove it.

Of course you can remove things and make things worse, such as the removal of bleedthrough, which made short range and melee battles less effective. Therefore it was eventually put back in and now we still have it.

Removing things is perfectly fine, when warranted. Even better if you can replace it with an improved idea that solves the same problem. That’s why I always opt to remove Sprint and “replace” it with a higher base movement speed. It solves the same problem with less drawbacks.

#12

> 2533274870445963;1:
> They simply add to the mechanics that are already there, and removing them is simply a regressive choice whether you’re for or against.

I couldn’t disagree, more. What mechanics do they “add to,” then? And reverting to a proven formula is anything but regressive, just look at what WWII did for Call of Duty; they moved away from enhanced mobility mechanics, went back to their roots, and it was IMMENSELY popular. Trimming the fat is always a healthy option to have on the table, even if it shouldn’t be a priority by default. But in the case of Halo, it’s immensely clear that an astoundingly massive portion of the community does not like Spartan Abilities and enhanced mobility, in general, so it’d be both arrogant and senseless for 343 to ignore the community’s blowback.

Starting with sprint, it literally adds nothing to the sandbox, at the end of the day. Every environment is simply arbitrarily enlarged to accommodate for it (both campaign and multiplayer), so even though players feel like they’re moving faster, there’s no net change, in the end; it’s all in the player’s head. AND, since you can’t shoot while sprinting, it actually ends up slowing the overall gameplay experience, unlike in classic Halo titles where your weapons were always ready, and firefights were consistent. (Spartan Charge also only exists to combat sprint+melee spam, so it goes hand-in-hand with sprint. Both could be removed with no impact on overall gameplay.)

A super common example is comparing H2’s Midship and the Halo 5 “remake,” Truth; the latter is noticeably larger than the original to compensate for increased player mobility, so the time it takes a player to get into the “action” from spawn is nearly identical to what it was before. However, since weapons are lowered while sprinting, it adds another second or so to actually start firing once you actually get into a fight; slower than it originally was without sprint, oddly enough. In this case, sprint results in a net loss in combat fluidity.

And as for clamber, the platforms in Truth are raised to keep clamber in play, but inso doing, ultimately shrink the skill-gap. Before, there were certain jumps/pathways around the map that required extra player skill to make with just traditional jumps, but are now easily and automatically accessible to all players due to how forgiving clamber is. Even in original H5 maps, “skill” jumps are no longer a thing because of clamber, so this is a universal thing across all maps designed with enhanced mobility in mind, not just remakes.

Thrusting (and increased mobility, in general) also results in the need for higher aim-assist, which, again, only serves to lower the skill gap in a lot of ways. Yeah, everyone moves around more, but they also make it easier to land shots, so the net change is again cancelled out.

Also, as a general issue, a HUGE impact increased mobility has had on the franchise is that vehicles are increasingly irrelevant, now. Vehicle play has always been a staple of the Halo series, and served to help differentiate the gameplay from most other FPS games; however, vehicles are now even less useful than they’ve ever been, and it sucks, in my opinion, because it’s a pretty significant change to the sandbox a lot of us have grown accustomed to. That feeling simply can’t return without the sandbox also returning to “classic” movement mechanics.

#13

I don’t see them as evolving, I see them as trend following.

#14

I don’t see Halo 5s abilities as an experiment, are we going to pull that excuse over and over? What was reach and Halo 4 for? At some point, you come to the realization forcing things isn’t going to work, something 343 needs to come to grips with considering each game they’re criticized.

“They simply add to the mechanics that are already there, and removing them is simply a regressive choice whether you’re for or against.” You play with fire with what you said at the very end of this. I’d argue it’s progression more than regression.

You say they add, I’m going to say they take away. With sprint you lose the ability to move omni-directional at Max speed, you can’t do this with sprint, only when going forward. Clambor also shares the same regression as you can use it when going forward, you can’t use it going backwards or sideways like you could with crouch jumping. Thrusters has also taken focus away from strafing (sprint as well) as weapons are adjusted to hit faster targets, so when you’re not using those abilities, you’re an easier target, there is no dodging weapons with such high magnetism to them.

Say it’s regression all you want, I’ll view it the opposite and hell, I could say it so whether you think so or not :+1:

#15

> 2533274813244926;12:
> > 2533274870445963;1:
> > They simply add to the mechanics that are already there, and removing them is simply a regressive choice whether you’re for or against.
>
> Also, as a general issue, a HUGE impact increased mobility has had on the franchise is that vehicles are increasingly irrelevant, now. Vehicle play has always been a staple of the Halo series, and served to help differentiate the gameplay from most other FPS games; however, vehicles are now even less useful than they’ve ever been, and it sucks, in my opinion, because it’s a pretty significant change to the sandbox a lot of us have grown accustomed to. That feeling simply can’t return without the sandbox also returning to “classic” movement mechanics.

I definitely agree with you here. In the classic Halo’s, a warthog was a huge addition to a team. A single warthog could literally change the game (for better or worse). It was difficult to take one down. You were slower so you couldn’t run around and hide and I feel like the overall vehicle health was higher. I haven’t played a lot of btb like I used to, but it seems all vehicles have taken a little downgrade.

#16

> 2533274923562209;14:
> I don’t see Halo 5s abilities as an experiment, are we going to pull that excuse over and over? What was reach and Halo 4 for? At some point, you come to the realization forcing things isn’t going to work, something 343 needs to come to grips with considering each game they’re criticized.
>
> “They simply add to the mechanics that are already there, and removing them is simply a regressive choice whether you’re for or against.” You play with fire with what you said at the very end of this. I’d argue it’s progression more than regression.
>
> You say they add, I’m going to say they take away. With sprint you lose the ability to move omni-directional at Max speed, you can’t do this with sprint, only when going forward. Clambor also shares the same regression as you can use it when going forward, you can’t use it going backwards or sideways like you could with crouch jumping. Thrusters has also taken focus away from strafing (sprint as well) as weapons are adjusted to hit faster targets, so when you’re not using those abilities, you’re an easier target, there is no dodging weapons with such high magnetism to them.
>
> Say it’s regression all you want, I’ll view it the opposite and hell, I could say it so whether you think so or not :+1:

Over and over? Every new game is an experiment. That’s how they stay relevent. Trend chasing or not.

Halo isn’t capable of being a trendsetter, either. At least not anymore. It’s just plays too basic when compared to other shooters of its ever-growing genre. In an FPS, sprint just seems like a pretty natural way to progress since just about all of them incorporate it. And I’m sure every developer is acutely aware that increasing the BMS is better than sprint overall, so why do they add sprint in the first place?

The simple answer to that is utility.

EVERYONE knows that an increased BMS is better overall and I even agree with that, but replacing sprint with it only introduces how a player’s reaction time must be adjusted because instead now their target is moving more quickly overtime and overall. Sprint at least keeps people guessing.

Halo 5’s BMS is the highest it’s ever been and I do agree that the maps should’ve been designed around it; sprint should be an asset, not a requirement. In fact, ALL Spartan Abilities should be choice assets IN GAMEPLAY, not by turning them off in a menu. But my point is that, sprint gives players choice, there are pros and cons to both sprint and BMS. 343i has tried to increase the cons that come with sprinting to the point where now, it’s accomodated poorly (OP).

If sprint was so detrimental, wouldn’t you play better by NOT doing it? Perhaps. But you will find your enemy beating you to the power weapons pretty frequently. You could argue that BMS would fix this issue but in the long run, it just benefits everyone by making the game simpler to play. And when everyone benefits, the skill gap becomes narrower and narrower. Increased BMS makes the game easier, and sprint makes it more difficult. BMS makes everything predictable, while sprint adds some variation. And difficulty gives players something to strive for; why would you play on Legendary difficulty when you could just play on Normal?

Sprint isn’t bad.
It’s just difficult.

And there are many ways to use it incorrectly, ask anyone in CSR Champion. They’ll even tell you that skill-jumps still exist, believe it or not.

Which brings me to my next point: Clamber.

Yes, Clamber makes verticality easier.
Yes, Clamber may reduce the skill gap.
Yes, Clamber can only be used facing (relatively) forward.
Yes, Clamber removes your ability to shoot.
But all in all, this just returns to the point of player utility; Did you use it at the right time?

Like I also said before, skill jumping still exists, and it’s what lets the truly skilled players outshine the rest. Everyone can clamber, but only the best can skill jump, and anyone can learn to do it.

(I’m not done, but I need a break from typing this out. I’ll add more later.)

So therefore, what’s wrong with Halo becoming more difficult? Where your skill and success should be determined by how you utilize your abilities? Where your degree of aptitude and affinity is completely dictated by how easily you can nail a perfect kill?

Spartan Abilities were added to give the player more choice.

#17

I whole heartedly agree with op. I think halo 5 did do some good things with the aa and multiplayer. I hope they build on what worked

#18

> 2533274870445963;16:
> So why do they add sprint in the first place?

They’ve gone on record with that, mainly player expectations. That was the big main point of sprint’s addition.

> 2533274870445963;16:
> EVERYONE knows that an increased BMS is better overall and I even agree with that, but replacing sprint with it only introduces how a player’s reaction time must be adjusted because instead now their target is moving more quickly overtime and overall. Sprint at least keeps people guessing.

Well, why would it be bad with better reflexes?
And, how is sprint keeping people guessing? I mean, if you want to traverse the map you’ll do so in the fastest way possible, right?
If you were to “be sneaky”, you’d go slower, so what’s the difference between only BMS and Sprint then?

> 2533274870445963;16:
> If sprint was so detrimental, wouldn’t you play better by NOT doing it? Perhaps. But you will find your enemy beating you to the power weapons pretty frequently. You could argue that BMS would fix this issue but in the long run, it just benefits everyone by making the game simpler to play. And when everyone benefits, the skill gap becomes narrower and narrower. Increased BMS makes the game easier, and sprint makes it more difficult. BMS makes everything predictable, while sprint adds some variation. And difficulty gives players something to strive for; why would you play on Legendary difficulty when you could just play on Normal?
>
> Sprint isn’t bad.
> It’s just difficult.

Sprint is hardly difficult.

Also, “difficulty” and “complexity” aren’t really the same thing. Sprint adds complexity by adding another set of rules for the player to take into consideration, but it doesn’t really provide any depth to the game as most of it’s “benefits” are nullified through more layers of “balancing rules”, such as map elognation ( which is required unless you want to risk adventuring the map flow in a negative way ), turn rate reductions, removal of weapon usage, cancelation of the shield recharge timer, and so forth.

Skill gap getting more narrow?
Let’s take a look at “usability”.
“Usability” is a term which somewhat describe how useful a program is for a user, the more the user learns the more usable it is for the user, obviously. Now that term is used for productive software. However, using that term loosely for games is kind of doable. You have a player who has learned the game and its rules to an extent and that player can do quite well. That’s an average user. Enter the “expert” user, the one who has perfected the tools of the program, and is more efficient than the average user despite using the same tools.
Introduce a tool to the program which benefit the average user more than the expert user, and you’ve increased the average user’s efficiency, but the expert user may not actually benefit as much from the new tool as the average user, meaning that exper user’s efficinecy is not impacted as much by the new tool. That’s a narrowing of the skill gap.
If we want to look at sprint, which’s basicly only main good usage is traversing the map “faster”, doesn’t really benefit either users as the time to travel is more or less held consistent with older titles where sprint wasn’t present. However, looking at the escape part of sprint, and you’ll see that the expert user who had good escape abilities from before, benefits less from sprint’s “push button and decrease the disadvantage” than the average user. Because the average user’s escape efficiency before sprint’s introduction may not have been up to par, but with sprint, it has certainly increased.

Here’s a small video on the matter of Complexity vs Depth.

> 2533274870445963;16:
> So therefore, what’s wrong with Halo becoming more difficult? Where your skill and success should be determined by how you utilize your abilities? Where your degree of aptitude and affinity is completely dictated by how easily you can nail a perfect kill?

Making the game purposfully “difficult” to play, I’d say complex, isn’t exactly desirable. I certainly do not want to fight the game I’m trying to play.

#19

> 2533274870445963;16:
> why do they add sprint in the first place?

->

> 2533274801973487;1261:
> We can only specualte why sprint stuck from Reach to H4, what we can tell for sure is that a major reason for keeping sprint for H5 are:
> - 343 thinks players couldn’t handle a game without sprint in 2015 - “Immersion”

#20

> 2533274801973487;19:
> > 2533274870445963;16:
> > why do they add sprint in the first place?
>
> ->
>
>
> > 2533274801973487;1261:
> > We can only specualte why sprint stuck from Reach to H4, what we can tell for sure is that a major reason for keeping sprint for H5 are:
> > - 343 thinks players couldn’t handle a game without sprint in 2015 - “Immersion”

I wasn’t talking about 343i specifically.