Some Things to Consider About the BR v. DMR..

Games Other Halo
1

I’m no MLG player and I’m no genius at game statistics, but I’d like to give my thoughts on the BR v. DMR issue by using my own personal experiences and possibly enlighten those who don’t know what to choose. Please visit this forum topic for the basic statistics and information (as I really don’t feel like typing that tonight…): DMR vs. BR Faqs - Halo 4

Now I’ll get started. From what I’ve found, there’s a few things people have not looked at in the statistics. First I’ll start with the fact that the BR can take down a person with very low shields in one trigger pull, something that the DMR can not do. This is because the first 2 shots will pull down the shield while the last shot will land the kill. Now while this may not be necessarily important during team game types, I find it very helpful during Regicide. The next issue I’ll cover is feeling. This is something that can not be measured in statistics. For some reason when I play with the BR, I end up doing better and even winning close-mid range engagements with DMR and that directly argues against what people are saying about kill times in statistics. Whether this be an issue on skill or something else, I don’t know. The last issue I can think of for the moment is flinch. I haven’t tested it yet but my theory is that if all 3 shots land with the BR, it will cause more flinch than one shot from the DMR. As it stands, I still think that they are balanced, although I think they could increase the BR’s effective range just a tad. For me it’s still BR for game types like Infinity Slayer, and Regicide on smaller maps and DMR for Big Team Battle and maps like Complex. What do you think? Is there anything you think i could add to this? Let me know, otherwise I’ll see you on the War Games. Happy Hunting!

Some other info from posters:

> -If a DMR used its entire clip and so did a BR, they would kill the same amount of people, in addition, the DMR has a higher “margin of error”, meaning they can afford to miss more shots. I cant remember exactly, but its like 2 misses for a BR vs a DMR which can miss 3/4 shots while still getting the same number of kills.
>
> - Also the DMR is capable of killing an un-moving spartan faster by about .2 seconds.
>
> The reason i used standing targets was so that i could accurately evaluate the weapons’ raw powers. It found that the DMR was a overall “better” weapon, HOWEVER, the BR for some reason just seems to be easier to hit a moving spartan.
>
> This last part was not studied in forge. I had used a BR to around SR 48, then used a DMR. The DMR was not as combat efficient as the BR in my opinion. It seems to overall be harder to aim, im assuming due to the increased accuracy making it more difficult to hit. (think snipers at close range)

All credit goes to Invisible Poles for this set of info.

So here is some more recent information! (Given by Invisible Poles, again, thank you!)

> Conclusions:
> -The Flinch Theory does in fact exist.
> -The Flinch Theory in the involvement of the DMR and the BR states:
> 1. The DMR will cause more and receive less flinch when zoomed in
> 2. The BR has significantly less Flinch vs the DMR when NOT zoomed in
> 3. The direction of Flinching is the same as the direction you received damage from, however, this ignores “in front” and behind on a horizontal plane.
> 4.Distance plays no role in Flinch
> -The 2nd part of the Flinch Theory may be the reason why the BR has the more comfortable feel, and why it wins so often despite other statistics being in the DMR’s favor.

2

I think what most people are kinda discouraged about is the simple fact that the DMR can be used to great effect at close to mid range and outclasses the br long range.

This is largely attributed to the fact that the BR is more of a short to mid range weapon used to clear hallways in my opinion it performs that role OK.

The DMR on the other hand is for mid-to long range, the problem arises from the fact that due to a combination of rate of fire, tight bloom, and auto-aim the dmr performs almost too well in all situations and in skilled hands can outclass a br quite easily in mid range and hallways area’s the br’s burst fire should have a distinct advantage.

What they need to do is somehow make the dmr less overwhelming mid to close range and keep its long range niche. Descoping needs a comeback or flinching needs a tweak to adjust for the long range dmr only battles happening.

3

Thanks for your input. What if they made the reticle bloom bigger when firing from the hip while it mantains what it has right now when zoomed in (This would make sense to me as when the shooter is firing from the hip he may not be able to focus on direct aim or he might handle the recoil in a different way as opposed to him focusing when he’s scoped in)

4

Oh i also did some research on this one day. I came to similar conclusions as you did. However, i did not test vehicular damage or account for aim. On a solitary target i found: (out of a test count of 50 spartan targets each, these are averages)(yes i have a lot of time on my hands)

-If a DMR used its entire clip and so did a BR, they would kill the same amount of people, in addition, the DMR has a higher “margin of error”, meaning they can afford to miss more shots. I cant remember exactly, but its like 2 misses for a BR vs a DMR which can miss 3/4 shots while still getting the same number of kills.

  • Also the DMR is capable of killing an un-moving spartan faster by about .2 seconds.

The reason i used standing targets was so that i could accurately evaluate the weapons’ raw powers. It found that the DMR was a overall “better” weapon, HOWEVER, the BR for some reason just seems to be easier to hit a moving spartan.

This last part was not studied in forge. I had used a BR to around SR 48, then used a DMR. The DMR was not as combat efficient as the BR in my opinion. It seems to overall be harder to aim, im assuming due to the increased accuracy making it more difficult to hit. (think snipers at close range)

So this was my research, i suggest you add it to your research (with credit to me for this portion). We should stay in touch, perhaps one day we could expand and research other weapons such as the light rifle and the carbine.

5

> Thanks for your input. What if they made the reticle bloom bigger when firing from the hip while it mantains what it has right now when zoomed in (This would make sense to me as when the shooter is firing from the hip he may not be able to focus on direct aim or he might handle the recoil in a different way as opposed to him focusing when he’s scoped in)

Sad thing is i don’t think any of us truly understand how much it would take to balance the dmr, fact of matter is the community were the ones who wanted no bloom in the first place. I think there comes to a point where the 343 needs to take a page from MMO developers and balance the game not to what certain people want but whats best for balance.

I’m not saying a bigger bloom when not scoped is the answer, could work however we just won’t know until tried and tested, problem is this community has shown that they aren’t very forgiving and if it doesn’t work then it will just be rage fest all over the forums.

6

Agreed Invisible Poles, we’ll stay in touch. I’ll add your research to the OP tomorrow (won’t forget to give you credit) but I’m going to try and get some half decent sleep tonight as for once in my life, I have no homework :D. Anyways well continue this research tomorrow! And if you get any chance could you check out the flinching theory? My suggestion would be to go into split screen, create a general spot and have the spartan standing there looking in one direction and zoom in then shoot him once with a DMR and once with a BR and see where the reticle ends up at. Catch you tomorrow!

7

don’t forget SWAT, I’ve gotten a double kill with one trigger pull of BR, and I saw a montage video of a guy getting a triple kill with 1 BR burst.

BR also slows you down more when you sprint because of the 3 bullets hitting.

these don’t make it better than DMR, but I wouldn’t say it as bad as people make it out to be.

8

Sure i will investigate the “Flinching Theory”… however it will take me a few more days before i can test the Flinching Theory with a Rogue perk, considering that perk affects weapon flinch it would be smart to test with that as well as default.

Also sadly, i cannot conduct full testing on default settings until thursday… I have school as well as a prior obligation (voluntary job of sorts). I could do minor testing tomorrow, but i would be unable to respond with accurate results until at least Thursday…

P.S. Enjoy your extra sleep, no hw is a rare thing so close to an end of a semester, what with finals and all.

9

The BR has “bleed through”, and yes it helps killing someone say if their shields just started recharging… instead of for instance a dmr shot would just drop their shields completely again. But the DMR is better in every aspect, doesnt matter what range… even has a faster kill time than the BR… DMR is second to none other than a person spamming a pistol up close.

10

Gombee, while the DMR may have more raw power and a better variety of range, I think the main cause for the BR being able to stack up to the DMR is feeling/ movement. I find it easier to be jumping and use a BR than to jump and use a DMR. Like I said, I’m not the best player in the world, but I’m pretty darn good so whether this is a skill issue or not, I still think the BR will when out in close engagements and down mid-range tight hallways.

-xLonewolf5064x, “I aim to please…”

11

The DMR performs amazingly well in almost all situations. This is the problem with it.

The bullet magnetism on this gun is INSANE. This, coupled with the huge head hitboxes in this game plus ridiculous amounts of aim assist, makes it more poweful and overall more dominant in pretty much all situations compared to every other Primary weapon. Even the automatics struggle to match the efficiency of this weapon at close ranges.

The bloom on the DMR does nothing. 0. Zilch. It seems to be there more for visual effect than anything else.

12

I agree with you, even after all the things I said, the DMR still needs to be de-buffed slightly. I’m continuing to own with my BR at mid-close range though (: But I want to know why because all of these statistics seem to be pointing to a 100% death rate when not using a DMR.

-xLonewolf5064x, “I aim to please…”

13

Agreed. BR ‘feels’ so much better to use. Something satisfying about that sound and just decimating your opponents’ shields.

Obviously, the DMR is much better far away. But I think if we had more ACTUAL 4v4 sized maps, such as Haven and Adrift, the BR would be appreciated much more.

Up close and personal though (or even down a decent-length hallway) the BR is the bomb.

14

It really comes down to map size for me. I have ducked into a corner and changed the loadout from one to the other, so that I would have it next time.

15

If the DMR was only good at long range it would be inferior to the Light Rifle.

There really doesn’t seem to be any way to balance this weapon. It overlaps way too many niches.

16

It seems at long range light rifle is king with the disadvantage of being worthless at close range. While DMR although not as good at long range as light rifle can still defend itself at close, but from what I’ve seen the Assault Rifle is king at close range even occasionally besting two DMRs up close.Finally the BR does the exact same tactical thing as armor customization in Halo, 70% of being awesome is looking awesome. Holding the classic weapon gives you the feel of a veteran soldier who may lose at long range in an ambush, but is wise enough to win in most Head-to-Head.

17

The DMR is too easy to use when compared to the other rifles. Really, it has no downsides like the others do. Here’s what the DMR can do.

DMR
-It has range
-solid ROF
-Negligible/non existent bloom
-tons of aim assist (big problem here)

Carbine

-Fast ROF
-Weak damage per projectile (major buff required)
-less aim assist (a little more would not hurt this gun)
-Scope is 2x like BR and Magnum

BR

-3 round burst. 3 bullets landing equals one DMR shot but you can and will miss, meaning less damage to shields overall.

-Recoil climbs up after each trigger pull

-2x scope

-Bleedthrough on the bursts (something the Carbine and DMR can’t do).

LR

-Scoped shots are 4 shot kill. Hip shots are 5sk.
-Not hitscan
-ROF isn’t exactly that fast
-I believe it’s scope is like the DMRs.

See the problem here? The DMR, unlike the other guns, has no drawbacks whatsoever. What needs to happen is less aim assist and a slightly ROF nerf on the DMR. If it’s going to dominate at longer ranges, it needs to be less effective at closer ranges.

18

BR needs more Flinch Damage, even when Stability perk is in use. The bleed through is good, just more flinch to balance out CQC.
343 will do this soon.

19

I love seeing these ideas and some reasons why the DMR is better. I still personally like both equal, but feel that the BR should have a slight advantage in close or mid range. Like others have said possibly increase the flinch received, or give it a VERY slight RoF buff. I want the BR to stack up a little better, but I don’t want it to become the next, and I quote, “OMGzzz that wepun iz overpowrdsss!!!” gun on the forums:P

20

I have returned with more information on the elusive “Flinch Theory”. And in response to your question of “why because all of these statistics seem to be pointing to a 100% death rate when not using a DMR”. The secret may lie in this Flinch Theory. These are my results, SKIP TO THE BOTTOM FOR MY CONCLUSIONS BASED ON THE DATA, HOWEVER I HIGHLY SUGGEST YOU READ THE WHOLE POST:

For all of these tests i was aiming the crosshair of the target’s gun at a fixed sticky grenade. To prevent my inability to aim at the same spot every time, i only used data from a spartan who was freshly re-spawned, untouched, and unmoved. I made my measurements after the shot that broke the energy shields. No bullets were hit on the spartan himself. Assuming they cause similar damage, (from my prior research, read original post) no damage was inflicted on the spartan himself.

Initial testing; first i must find out if range has an effect of amount of flinch received. To test this, i tested with a DMR and a BR against a non-moving scoped in sniper (for accurate measurements). Results:
-Of 10 kills at point blank, close range (about one warthog), med range (about 3 or 4 warthogs), and long range (10 warthogs or so), i found NO variation.
-The cross hair of the sniper moved consistently to the same spot, every time.

Initial testing: Next, i had to see if flinch was equal throughout where in the body the target was shot. Using the same method as the last test i found:
-No variation
-Consistent flinch from foot, waist, chest, and head

Now real testing: To begin, i tried to answer the initial question: which weapon causes more flinch? Using the same method as above, i measured using coordinates, pillars, and other things of that sort to mark and measure how far from the original sticky grenade that the target flinched. Results:
-Fairly consistent flinch, if any dilatation, they were too small to measure
-Both guns caused about the same flinch on first glance, however upon closer inspection, it has been shown that a DMR will cause a VERY small amount of flinch MORE than that of the BR

Next, i decided to go further, which weapon will take more flinch from damage. Same method, however i now changed the weapon of the Target. From killing the target 10 times with the BR and 10 times with the DMR, i found:
-The DMR-wielding Spartan received LESS flinch. Surprise.

However, now is when the interesting part comes in. Up until now, the target has always been zoomed in, regardless of his weapon. And every time, the crosshair consistently moved upwards, not to the right or left. Well now i decided to attack hip-firing-spartans. Of 25 kills of a spartan firing from the hip with a DMR and 25 kills on a spartan of the same situation but with a BR instead, i found:

  • The BR received less flinch
  • The BR user received almost half the amount of Flinch

In close-med range, as most engagements are, this detail of the Flinch Theory may be the deciding factor of DMR-BR engagements. With this large difference in Flinch, a DMR user just might not be able to aim in these types of engagements, giving the BR the overall better “Feel” many of us experience.

Finally, one final small detail: The direction of the Flinch is not always upwards. Above, i mentioned “the crosshair consistently moved upwards, not to the right or left”. However, i found this only to be true IF the target was zoomed in. Otherwise the target will flinch in the direction of damage. But it’s not quite that simple:
-on a horizontal plane or surface where everyone is of equal height, the target crosshair of a hip-firing-spartan will move left or right ONLY. NEVER up or down. Even if you think you are directly behind a spartan, it will always move left or right. Right if you are right of the target, and left if you are to the left.
-on a vertical plane neither to the right or left of a target, the target crosshair will only move up or down. Neither left or right. It will move up if you are higher than the target, and down if you are below the target.
-Now, if you were to combine those two, and shoot from an angle on a horizontal and a vertical plane, then you would move their crosshair diagonally. For example, if i was above you, and to the right, and i shot you. Your crosshair would move up and to the right.

Conclusions:
-The Flinch Theory does in fact exist.
-The Flinch Theory in the involvement of the DMR and the BR states:

  1. The DMR will cause more and receive less flinch when zoomed in
  2. The BR has significantly less Flinch vs the DMR when NOT zoomed in
  3. The direction of Flinching is the same as the direction you received damage from, however, this ignores “in front” and behind on a horizontal plane.
    4.Distance plays no role in Flinch
    -The 2nd part of the Flinch Theory may be the reason why the BR has the more comfortable feel, and why it wins so often despite other statistics being in the DMR’s favor.

Thank you for your attention, everyone. I think some parts of this theory apply to more than just that of the BR and DMR. In addition, i think some more testing may be beneficial even in flinch alone of the BR and DMR. Perhaps, if one of you get a moment or two, try an experiment as well? And we can see if we receive similar results.

One last note, i think it would be beneficial to experiment with:

  • Flinch Theory and its application to other weapons, such as the sniper, the carbine, light rifle, etc.
  • I hypothesize that there is a strong connection with the damage received per bullet and the amount of flinch. I believe that more damage= more flinch. This is based on battlefield combat, such as when i get shot by a sniper, you know, before the second shot finishes me off. We should conduct some tests.

Oh, and Lone Wolf, if you are going to reference the Flinch theory, i suggest just taking the summary and just noting the full information is below. Considering it seems like i wrote an article here. XD