Some Spartan-III's were on Par with Spartan-II's?

Interesting read from Reddit…

"Now I know what you’re all thinking. You must think the thread title is absurd but just hear me out guys. We all know that Spartan-II’s were the genetic cream of the crop. They were selected from some of the most genetically perfect specimens within human controlled space. Their genetic makeup and physical traits surpassed the bulk of humanities population in the 26th century. Now add Biological Augmentation procedures to improve upon these traits and then you get a walking tank.

First I’d like to state and clarify that the Spartan III’s of Noble Team were *different than other Spartan III’s. Their genetic makeup was much closer to the specifications that Halsey had laid out for her original Spartan-II’s, and they were far and away the best out of their respective companies. They received better training, augmentations, and equipment once they were removed from their companies.

For instance;

>However, there were a small number of SPARTAN-III candidates—called “cat 2s” by Kurt Ambrose—who would have met the requirements for the SPARTAN-II program; some of them would later be removed from their mainline companies, given better equipment and assigned to separate special forces units.[6]

Source: http://www.halopedia.org/Project_CHRYSANTHEMUM

So the Spartan-III’s of Noble Team will form the crux of my argument. Okay, moving on. One thing we can notice straightaway from having a first look at Noble Team is…

Their size.

Carter-A259 ~ 208.3 cm (6’10)
Kat-B320 ~ 204 cm (6’8)
Emile-A239 ~ 208.4 cm (6’10)
Jun-A266 ~ 210.5 cm (6’11)
Spartan-B329 ~ 205.7 cm (6’9)

From this we can gather that the Spartan-III’s of Noble team had physical statures comparable to that of the Spartan-II’s. Noble 6’s height is on par with Spartan Frederic-104 and John-117 is the same height as Carter-A259. Heck Kat is even taller than Spartan-037 Randall.

During the Battle of Onyx, one of the SPARTAN-IIIs briefly fought the MJOLNIR-armored Kelly-087. The SPARTAN-III in question was able to momentarily hold their own against Kelly, escaping from her arm lock and twisting her wrist despite wearing only SPI armor. While Kelly was able to quickly defeat the SPARTAN-III afterward, she took note that she would have easily torn her opponent’s arm off if he or she were unaugmented. Now imagine if that was a 7’2 Noble 6 in MJOLNIR armor? I’d think he’d dish out some serious pain and it could’ve have gone both ways.

Now ALOT of people bring up the speed running difference between the Spartan-II’s and III’s. But I find this to be unfair because during the battle on Pegasi Delta, most of Beta Company were roughly twelve years old. The physical abilities of any SPARTAN-IIIs who lived long enough to mature would supposedly have improved significantly as CPO Mendez stated that Spartans only grew stronger and faster as their bodies grew accustomed to their augmentations.

So I’m going to conclude this post by stating that the best of the Spartan-III’s performed on-par with the Spartan-II’s and some of them (think Noble Six) exceeded the majority of the Spartan-II’s.

Do you agree? Or not? Why don’t you agree?

Discuss.

Let’s have a great discussion guys! "

What do you guys think?

Source; http://www.reddit.com/r/HaloStory/comments/2ui14i/debate_some_some_spartan_iiis_were_on_par_with_if/

It’s more or less what has been said thus far. Some Spartan-IIIs were good enough to be Spartan-II-like, hence Noble Team, etc. Don’t forget that in Ghosts of Onyx, the conclusion is that the S-IIIs are finally as good as the IIs. (That’s also what Kurt thinks) And as you said, people consider the S-IIIs to be weak, but most S-IIIs were twelve year old and only had crappy SPI armors. If they had received more care, they would have been legends. Of course, Noble Team were slightly better, and more or less on par with the average S-II. And Noble Six was even better.

Yeah, the community often has some weird misconceptions of things. The SIII’s are one of them. I feel like it’s people who either haven’t read the book, or simply haven’t read it in years, and thus are running off what they remember when they were younger. For example, people focus on Lucy’s height to say S-III’s were small, but this is actually because she is strange abnormality, and because of this, is the only one from Ghosts of Onyx who gets a listed height on Halopedia.

Also, I believe halsey’s journal mentions the whole ‘awesome genetics’ thing was mostly to ensure the survivial rate of the augmentations. It’s something the fan base also tends to inflate the importance of (sort of like the “unbreakable bones”). Of course, with Geas stuff going around these days, it’s also likely that.

The main handicap was the budget, which cost them the armor. But i think the suicide nature of their missions is also a biproduct of the nature of the human-covenant war. I mentioned this is in another thread about Yggdrasil’s armor effect (or lack there of) on the war with the covenant.

The S-II’s were designed for an era where ground combat was prevalent. The Innies weren’t big on ships, and fighting was likely closer to modern day fighting. In this scenario, the Spartans are amazing soldiers. Of course, given that the Innies were human, the S-II’s could also play a stealth role, as seen in their first mission.

Of course, this shifts when the covies show up. We have a overwhelming space-based enemy that you can’t really infiltrate like you used to. We’re honestly lucky we had so many forerunner artifacts around that we apparently didn’t realize, because the covenant could have just glassed us from orbit and rendered our ground forces effectively useless. This is why every halo game has to feature forerunner stuffs in some form.

During the war, the S-II’s are relegated to what seems to primarily defensive operations. No victory on the ground really seems to save a planet, because the covenant just glass it. I don’t recall the S-II’s truly going on the offensive against the covenant until Red Flag and First Strike. They’re too expensive to throw away on a risky mission unless things get desperate, such as the final months of the war, or earlier when Halsey is captured.

What does this all have to do with the S-III’s? Because the S-III’s are cheaper, but still extremely capable. They’re given the offensive missions the S-II’s can’t be given because the S-II’s are too costly to replace. The S-II’s are needed where they are, while the S-III’s are deployed where they are more efficient. Teams like the headhunters and Noble team are further proof that the S-III’s themselves are not really inferior, as the cream of the crop that they consider too valuable are kept to operate more like S-II teams. You even have a S-II put under the command of an S-III.

In the end, armor aside, I think the only real difference between S-II and S-III in terms of performance, is that the S-III program was less picky about who they let join.

Nothing ever suggests that the IIIs’ augmentations are inferior to the IIs; if anything, what is said gives the impression they may even be better (at least they’re way more survivable). It’s just that if you augment people who are already above 99.99% of humanity mentally and physically, you get better results than if you give the same treatment to superficially ordinary kids who just happen to have very specific genes.

Sure, there’s the ridiculous outlier of an out-of-control Lucy punching Halsey in the face and somehow not painting the walls with pieces of her skull and brains in the process, but that can be ignored as the usual Traviss cluelessness. Suffice it to say, when a Spartan hits you in the face you don’t walk away with a mild nosebleed.

Don’t forget the Headhunters!

I’ve planned to make an in-depth thread or - as I’d much prefer - a blog about the Spartan-IIIs’ numbers, capabilities, and so forth for a long time. See “SPARTAN-II: A Comprehensive Headcount” as a rough idea of what I have in mind. In particular I want to address the non-company teams featured or otherwise alluded to in Reach and later media, particularly in The Essential Visual Guide. I’ll also touch on the “cat 2s”, whom I’ve found intriguing since they were first mentioned promotional material for Reach.

As for the fandom’s perception of the IIIs, I agree with UrbaneRocket495: It’s a case of people misremembering Ghosts of Onyx, or of having never read it and taking others’ word for granted. That Alpha and Beta Companies were deployed on many successful, fatality-free missions before PROMETHEUS and TORPEDO is often forgotten. Alpha took part in at least ten operations before they were wiped out. Operation: CARTWHEEL, which occurred prior to the Pegasi debacle, is an explicit part of Kat’s backstory.

There’s also the erroneous line of reasoning that boils down to, “The Gamma Company Spartans were physically inferior to Blue Team. Therefore the Spartan-IIIs have inferior augmentations.” This ignores the fact that Ash, Holly, et al were recently augmented teenagers and would have needed time to grown into their bodies, so to speak. This also gets applied to the “cat 2s” featured in Reach, who are obviously tiny and weak compared to the S-IIs because they’re shorter than the 8’ 6" Elites and the 7’ 4" Jorge. As the original post mentions, the unarmored Spartan-IIIs of Noble Team were about the same height as the average, unarmored Spartan-II; Jorge was a giant much like Sam.

Honestly I’d forgotten the bit about having been more than 1 mission myself.

> 2533274953564346;1:
> So the Spartan-III’s of Noble Team will form the crux of my argument. Okay, moving on. One thing we can notice straightaway from having a first look at Noble Team is…
>
> Their size.
>
> Carter-A259 ~ 208.3 cm (6’10)
> Kat-B320 ~ 204 cm (6’8)
> Emile-A239 ~ 208.4 cm (6’10)
> Jun-A266 ~ 210.5 cm (6’11)
> Spartan-B329 ~ 205.7 cm (6’9)
>
> From this we can gather that the Spartan-III’s of Noble team had physical statures comparable to that of the Spartan-II’s. Noble 6’s height is on par with Spartan Frederic-104 and John-117 is the same height as Carter-A259. Heck Kat is even taller than Spartan-037 Randall.

These heights are of the Spartans in armour, not out of armour. This is why Jorge is a head taller than all of them despite Jorge being 7, 4 in armour. Also Randall is only 6, 8 pre-augmentations. His height post-augmentations is unspecified but he’s probably very tall and certainly taller than Kat.

I’ve seen a lot of people wondering what “cat 2s” means, but to me it just sounds like “Category 2s”, as in “These Spartan-IIIs are on the same level as the Spartan-IIs”. (And therefore we must save them from certain death and give them a chance to operate just like the IIs).

> 2533274821753519;9:
> I’ve seen a lot of people wondering what “cat 2s” means, but to me it just sounds like “Category 2s”, as in “These Spartan-IIIs are on the same level as the Spartan-IIs”. (And therefore we must save them from certain death and give them a chance to operate just like the IIs).

I’m not sure if you were referring to me specifically, but I didn’t mean to imply that I don’t understand the term. In fact, Jugus and I have done a bit of work regarding the cat 2s on Halopedia. I would say that I hope the concept is revisited (e.g. Rosenda-A344, Gauntlet and Echo Teams) but there’s approximately a 0.00001% chance of that happening. Basically all Spartan-related content these days is about Commander Palmer and Her Amazing Friends.

Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about other Waypoint users, but it was a very vague remark, I don’t remember a specific thread or person. By the way, yes, I wish we could see more of those Spartans from Reach / Ghosts of Onyx.

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making posts to rank up…

@Imrane 117

Ahhh it’s been ages since I’ve read GoO so I’ll have to give that another reading. But to be honest, I don’t think every S-III could have been on par with the II’s. You need to have a specific set of genes to get the most out of the augmentations. Noble-Six and the others would have probably been the “next” class of Spartan-II’s had the covenant not have encountered Humanity. Noble team and the headhunters were in another league of their own if we are comparing them to the vast majority of the S-III’s seeing as they got pulled out of their respective companies and being deemed too valuable to lose.

@UrbaneRocket495

Wow thanks man! Now I’m totally convinced that Noble team and the headhunters were on par with the II’s. The thing is, I’m pretty sure if Noble-Six was given the opportunity to, he could have replicated the same results and feats John-117 had accomplished. Barring of course situations where luck played a role.

@Skeleborn

So in other words, the more desirable genetic qualities you possess, the more you’ll benefit more from the augmentations? Yep! Got it! Cheers!

I also agree bro. It didn’t make sense to me at all. I actually put down my iPhone (purchased the Kilo-five trilogy on iBooks) and said “what???”

Not only that, Kurt before sacrificing himself punched and knocked out Tom right? Yet he only got a slight bruise while a normal human most likely would have suffered severe physical damage if not death thus proving his physical durability. We’ll just have to interpret it as an error on the authors behalf.

@Invader Kane

Hey that’d be awesome! Maybe we could also get a closer in depth look to the other S-III teams similar to Noble Team like Team Echo and Team Gauntlet? I really hope 343 capitalises on this opportunity and perhaps we might even see them get drafted in the Spartan-IV program.

@XI James 116

Please allow me the opportunity to correct you.

Imgur

Source Halo Initiation chapter-03

Look at that. That’s Jun there in civilian clothes and holding what looks to be a shotgun. He’s literally a hulking giant. Look how he towers over a 6 foot Lasky. Plus he’s nearly the same height as the male Spartan IV’s IN armor and slightly edges out a 205 cm Palmer.

And isn’t Jorge 7’3-7’4 OUT of armor? Could you provide some sources please? Because I’m pretty sure Jorge could dwarf the average II. The only other Spartan-II’s I can think of coming close to him are Jerome and Sam. Thanks!

@RUL MonkeyxMoo

Hell yeah man! The headhunters were such badasses!!

My fav quotes from the Headhunters;

Jonah-“They do operate on a shorter fuse. I think it makes ‘em fun—like pickin‘ on an emotionally stunted twelve-year-old.”

Roland-“You were a bully as a kid, weren‘t you?”

Jonah-“Me? No. I was the twelve-year-old”

Talk about badasses!!

> 2533274953564346;13:
> @UrbaneRocket495
>
> Wow thanks man! Now I’m totally convinced that Noble team and the headhunters were on par with the II’s. The thing is, I’m pretty sure if Noble-Six was given the opportunity to, he could have replicated the same results and feats John-117 had accomplished. Barring of course situations where luck played a role.

Oh I agree. When I mean losing the S-II’s on those missions would be more costly, I mean more in sunk costs. Despite only 1 “Mark” between the start of the covenant war and Reach, halsey’s journal mention the MK-IV went through numerous iterations. They’d pumped so much money into equipping the S-II’s that throwing them away on a mission like that would be a rather massive waste of money, which is why the guys who’ve never had power armor built for them were sent instead.

It also seems like the S-II’s had a certain amount of celebrity after the program went public. Significant losses of S-II’s due to riskier missions would be hard to cover up. Of course, they also didn’t have the numbers the S-III’s had.

> 2533274953564346;13:
> @XI James 116
>
> Please allow me the opportunity to correct you.
>
> http://imgur.com/R7VGpO6
>
> Source Halo Initiation chapter-03
>
> Look at that. That’s Jun there in civilian clothes and holding what looks to be a shotgun. He’s literally a hulking giant. Look how he towers over a 6 foot Lasky. Plus he’s nearly the same height as the male Spartan IV’s IN armor and slightly edges out a 205 cm Palmer.
>
> And isn’t Jorge 7’3-7’4 OUT of armor? Could you provide some sources please? Because I’m pretty sure Jorge could dwarf the average II. The only other Spartan-II’s I can think of coming close to him are Jerome and Sam. Thanks!

I have to disagree with you on this, the art in Initiation is not the best and there are many over scenes where Jun appears to be smaller than this, he’s obviously still going to be very tall.

No, there is no source that states this and seeing as we only see Jorge in armour we have to assume this is his height in armour.

If I had to choose between 117 coming after me, and Six . . . I’d honestly be a bit more afraid of Six. There’s something about him that’s . . . not right in the head. The way he delightfully slays his enemies with glee is more than a little unsettling. Someone said something about Geas, and I remember in another thread someone said Master Chief’s genetic traits were -near- perfect, enough to be considered that he may have Iso’s geas. What if Six’s were even better? What if Noble Six’s geas were IsoDidact’s, and not Master Chief? In Alien Resurrection (may its name be forever cursed) they cloned Ellen Ripley from 200-year-old DNA samples. Considering the fact Halo’s technology is centuries more advanced than the humans’ of the Alien universe, would it not be far-fetched to speculate on Noble Six’s DNA (even though he’s dead) playing a part?

Indeed, Noble Six is dead as we know him, but a scenario involving John-117 utilizing Six’s DNA samples to bring back the Iso-Didact, or even activating some ancient Prescursor technology, bring back Cortana (or any number of other possibilities) to defeat the Flood (or change them) would preserve that ‘Halo’ feel. Something about Reach’s story just screams incomplete to me. I am aware it was rushed, but Reach’s and Noble Six’s story cannot simply be ignored. There is more story to tell (now that 343 has confirmed Six is indeed male and has a canon presence). And I feel like Cortana could be the key to tying it all together (after the Ur-Didact killed her). There has to be some way to bring the Chief and Six’s story arcs full-circle, have it tie in with a Noble Six prequel before Reach, possibly. Just as Six saved 117, there has to be some way 117 can repay Six, as it suits the Chief’s noble (no pun intended) character, and have both of their roles tie into the final conclusion. And who knows, we saw a Forerunner structure on Reach at the end of the campaign, maybe there’s some ancient Forerunner or Precursor artifact hidden deep within Reach’s crust that could hold the key to bringing back Cortana?

I feel like the final Halo game should hearken back to the authentic, ancient feel of Halo: Combat Evolved, with vast, archaic-feeling and very alien structures and deep secrets transcending anything Halo has ever before dared delve into. Obviously it would center on John-117 (and possibly the Arbiter and Locke, Lasky and Blue Team), and his quest to find out the secrets of the geas and the Precursors.

> 2533274964189700;3:
> Yeah, the community often has some weird misconceptions of things. The SIII’s are one of them. I feel like it’s people who either haven’t read the book, or simply haven’t read it in years, and thus are running off what they remember when they were younger. For example, people focus on Lucy’s height to say S-III’s were small, but this is actually because she is strange abnormality, and because of this, is the only one from Ghosts of Onyx who gets a listed height on Halopedia.
>
> Also, I believe halsey’s journal mentions the whole ‘awesome genetics’ thing was mostly to ensure the survivial rate of the augmentations. It’s something the fan base also tends to inflate the importance of (sort of like the “unbreakable bones”). Of course, with Geas stuff going around these days, it’s also likely that.
>
> The main handicap was the budget, which cost them the armor. But i think the suicide nature of their missions is also a biproduct of the nature of the human-covenant war. I mentioned this is in another thread about Yggdrasil’s armor effect (or lack there of) on the war with the covenant.
>
> The S-II’s were designed for an era where ground combat was prevalent. The Innies weren’t big on ships, and fighting was likely closer to modern day fighting. In this scenario, the Spartans are amazing soldiers. Of course, given that the Innies were human, the S-II’s could also play a stealth role, as seen in their first mission.
>
> Of course, this shifts when the covies show up. We have a overwhelming space-based enemy that you can’t really infiltrate like you used to. We’re honestly lucky we had so many forerunner artifacts around that we apparently didn’t realize, because the covenant could have just glassed us from orbit and rendered our ground forces effectively useless. This is why every halo game has to feature forerunner stuffs in some form.
>
> During the war, the S-II’s are relegated to what seems to primarily defensive operations. No victory on the ground really seems to save a planet, because the covenant just glass it. I don’t recall the S-II’s truly going on the offensive against the covenant until Red Flag and First Strike. They’re too expensive to throw away on a risky mission unless things get desperate, such as the final months of the war, or earlier when Halsey is captured.
>
> What does this all have to do with the S-III’s? Because the S-III’s are cheaper, but still extremely capable. They’re given the offensive missions the S-II’s can’t be given because the S-II’s are too costly to replace. The S-II’s are needed where they are, while the S-III’s are deployed where they are more efficient. Teams like the headhunters and Noble team are further proof that the S-III’s themselves are not really inferior, as the cream of the crop that they consider too valuable are kept to operate more like S-II teams. You even have a S-II put under the command of an S-III.
>
> In the end, armor aside, I think the only real difference between S-II and S-III in terms of performance, is that the S-III program was less picky about who they let join.

I hate to quote so much, but I think it’s really great what you brought up here—something I’ve always said to friends and other fans. IIs were often seen as ‘too good’ to be put at risk. But IIIs were expendable. So if you’re talking who really won the war…

SIIIs. ODSTs. Sure, IIs were heroic I’m sure, but with the ‘Spartans Never Die’ thing I get the sneaking suspicion that their actual value was FAR more on the side of morale boosting. They needed to be deployed places that they could win, or it was so desperate that it didn’t matter anymore. Those were the options. If the UNSC thought that Spartan IIs fighting and dying in the hardest battles alongside everyone else, then the IIs wouldn’t have all had no idea that the IIIs even existed. The UNSC kept its hardest-hitting weapons a secret.

Infinity’s construction. SIII. If IIs were what everyone knew about, then IIs weren’t where the real show was. I’m not saying IIs weren’t great. They’re great. I’m saying that there’s no good reason to think that IIIs were inferior, and honestly during the end of the war it was definitely the IIIs buying humanity so much time and MOST of them will never get credit for it. Master Chief getting all the praise kinda irritates me for some reason, and I feel as though narratively it’s SUPPOSED to. His story is the story of a basic–Yoink- SII, up until Reach. Then it’s the story of Cortana, luck, and the Arbiter helping him end the war. Meanwhile he only got some of the info from Reach because of IIIs. In fact, he probably only got off of Reach at all because of Noble Team (George was a II, but among a team of IIIs—and no one knew George was still around).

Hell, the tech advancements from capturing Engineers had nothing to do with the Chief. One of them came from a team of ODSTs in Mombasa. What EXACTLY did the Chief do other than escort Cortana to the things she was going to blow up to save the day? He’s an overblown bodyguard. Lamest ‘hero’ ever. Bah.

(Also, I think S IVs would be awesome if 343 would write them better.)

As mentioned above, the heights for Noble Team given are when they’re wearing their armor. B312 was Palmer-sized, not John-sized. Out of armor, he was 6’4ish, and could have pretty easily blended in to a crowd of normal humans. Now, when Escalation shows people like Jun, Thorne, and Grant towering over normal humans, that’s clearly an exaggeration. Thorne and Jun are one inch taller than B312, and Grant is Kat-sized. They would definantly not be a head taller than everyone around.
As for their combat effectiveness, B312 was the second best Spartan ever, so it’s safe to assume that the SIII’s pulled from the suicide missions were just as good as the II’s. Unless B312 was a huge outlyer.

> 2533274874990824;15:
> > 2533274953564346;13:
> > @XI James 116
> >
> > Please allow me the opportunity to correct you.
> >
> > http://imgur.com/R7VGpO6
> >
> > Source Halo Initiation chapter-03
> >
> > Look at that. That’s Jun there in civilian clothes and holding what looks to be a shotgun. He’s literally a hulking giant. Look how he towers over a 6 foot Lasky. Plus he’s nearly the same height as the male Spartan IV’s IN armor and slightly edges out a 205 cm Palmer.
> >
> > And isn’t Jorge 7’3-7’4 OUT of armor? Could you provide some sources please? Because I’m pretty sure Jorge could dwarf the average II. The only other Spartan-II’s I can think of coming close to him are Jerome and Sam. Thanks!
>
>
>
> I have to disagree with you on this, the art in Initiation is not the best and there are many over scenes where Jun appears to be smaller than this, he’s obviously still going to be very tall.
>
> No, there is no source that states this and seeing as we only see Jorge in armour we have to assume this is his height in armour.

Or we assume they use the standard of listing their actual height.

Why would they give only armor height if we get their unarmored weight?

Man alot of awesome information on this thread. A very good read indeed ^.^