I dont have a problem to support the team, to be a teamplayer. But when 1 of my team mates is going -10, then i just stopped to care about the match. Its like you said, the other 3 player have to get the other 10 kills.
It cant work this way. You reach a point where you give up. Because at the end of the week, you are just on the same point where you started at the begin of the week.
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It’s not ideal. But the lower population means that teams are going to be spread in ranks.
Some players may be expected to go negative.
You can’t expect a Gold or Silver player to go positive if there are Onyx players on the other team.
But if they are expected to go -10 then you can win the game by helping them to go -5 instead.
Just like you can lose the game by going +5 instead of +10.
I’ve had plenty of games going negative with my sons - but I feel I’ve contributed with the assists, holding the objective, and communication. The key there is being “part” of the team.
When you lose a game it’s natural to look for the weakest link and blame them. But you rarely thank them in win.
It just feels like you have to put 110% into every match just to win occasionally and gain nothing for the effort. You can sweat so hard you need a shower after every match, and just one loss will take you back to the beginning of all that effort. And the game WILL MAKE YOU LOSE, one way or the other. It might not mean to, but it inevitably puts you in a situation where you can’t possibly win and then you get punished for it.
I don’t know who thought that was a good way to plan a ranking system, but they made a mistake
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The problem gets worse the higher you rank up, since you are matched with higher skilled opponents. When the game gives you weaker teammates the enemy team will know how to exploit that weakness by focusing on the stronger players in the match and keep them away from the objective.
Ontop of that, the servers are getting worse in matchmaking. One match you have 30 ping and then the next can be a 100+ ping server. Higher ranked players barely miss their shots, so you can get outgunned by whoever has the better ping.
It’s the matches where you have weaker teammates in combination to being placed in a high ping server and expected to perform at the same level as opponents playing on their closest server are the most frustrating for me.
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If you beat anyone ranked higher than you - your MMR will go up.
Reward for effort!
Oh. We’re still counting every CSR point?
It’s not worth the emotional effort.
The game won’t make you lose.
You’ll just eventually lose because you either stuffed up vs a similarly or lower ranked team or just weren’t good enough against a higher ranked team.
Again, you aren’t being “punished”.
You haven’t demonstrated an improvement in skill so you haven’t ranked up. Your CSR may oscillate a bit. But that’s neither here nor there.
They did. But the problem isn’t TrueSkill2 / MMR.
It’s the CSR.
They need to make it a smaller scale so there isn’t any change on a game by game basis. Reward players for improving over days to weeks. And put a maximum cap on it to stop the toxic grind.
It’s sad that the population has gotten to this point.
At least most games have weaker team mates on both sides.
Again population.
343 have some work to do.
But it’s not the fault of the current ranking or MM system. The alternative is to make players wait longer - or time them out entirely.
This is why nobody likes what you have to say about ranked matchmaking. You have a very “rank is pointless” outlook and think the game is working perfectly fine.
Ranked is the only playlist that has BR starts and consistent weapon layouts, it’s as much about the quality of the game as it is the CSR competition. But the rank is the point at the end of the day, and having the game throttle your ability to improve by being a broken mess and/or saddling you with an anchor on purpose is nothing short of enraging.
Yes, it will make you lose. You’re ignoring the points we make about certain key features of this game:
Mismatched teams
Poor server quality that directly influences outcomes
People lagging out/dc’ing from games randomly
People cheating
People betraying on purpose to grief
People going AFK
Desync impacting every BR fight
Full teams matching randoms
And a host of other issues
The fact that all these things are present in a game built around competition makes the outcome so unpredictable that claiming “you just have to shoot straighter bro” is annoying and completely ridiculous.
The game is built around a toxic system and nobody likes it. Not one person. You are constantly punished no matter how good or bad you are. Bad players just don’t know the difference, which is why they just keep bumbling through matches without understanding the consequences.
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Far from it. I value ranking a lot.
I thought my fascination with ranking systems was quite obvious.
I’m just saying the scale of the CSR (1 to 1800+) lacks precision. And it’s creating an unhealthy focus on relatively meaningless changes.
And the way it is set up results in the CSR oscillating around your MMR. But the drops are causing distress.
In reality there isn’t a lot of difference between a CSR of 1500 and 1515 - so why waste emotional energy on small changes.
A smaller scale, eg. 1 to 100, would be far less frustrating.
Again. Far from it. I’ve been very critical with the CSR system. And 343’s communication. And how they hide so much of the ranking from us (eg. we should be able to see graphs of our actual CSR / MMR changes over time).
Some valid griefs. But few of them are the fault of the ranking system or SBMM.
And those that are - more an issue with low population.
Don’t think I ever said that.
Assuming everyone is exposed to the same “issues” the ranking system will continue to rank people as appropriate. It just sorts people into a normal distribution of relative performance.
If you want to rank up then cope with the issues better than the people ranked above you.
Is that better advice?
No, it’s just accepting the problems with this game instead of offering a solution. MMR should not impact rank, win/loss should be the deciding factor, along with added bonus credit for performance. If you carry the team in kills and/or objective play, it should reward you.
MMR assembling teams is fine but the problem is in how CSR is gained or lost based on how it compares to your MMR. The game shouldn’t give you 3 CSR for a win and take away 15 for a loss based solely on who you matched. That’s asinine. At that rate you have to win 5 matches for every loss, just to even out for the day after 6 matches.
Winning should have a base value, losing should have a base value, and performance should add or subtract bonus value. Simple as. If the game then compensates for something like your team being down a man for all or most of the match, that’s a good upside.
And quit pretending all the broken aspects of this game impact everyone equally, because they don’t. It’s pay to win in many aspects.
You have a very high quality pc or an Xbox series x and you automatically outclass people on low end pc’s and Xbox ones. You basically have super powers.
Where you live has a tremendous impact, because living right next to a server and getting 15 ping lobbies every match is worth far more than practicing your aim in the training mode.
Having better headsets and controllers and monitors, all the hardware really, gives you more and more benefits as you stack them together.
Being in a lobby where people have mics makes a huge difference, especially if they speak the same language.
None of these non-mathematically tangible aspects are taken into consideration by the MMR system, because it’s an algorithm and cannot calculate such nuances. But don’t pretend it’s some kind of skill issue alone. It’s as much about luck and wealth as it is gunplay skills.
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Your MMR is the core of the ranking system.
It is.
But taking into account who you played is how ELO systems work. It’s why they are so much faster and more accurate than primitive W/L sorting systems.
It would be silly to go backwards.
You are. Weightings for KPM and DPM.
Unfortunately other metrics failed to improve the accuracy of the ranking.
So unless you can prove a new metric is useful it would be very silly to deliberately lower the accuracy of your system.
Actually, what you are describing is a performance based XP system.
Nov 8 will be your friend.
Agree. The scale is a problem. It needs to be smaller.
The tiny amounts of CSR are a problem.
But the amount of rank should be based on who you played. That’s an integral part of the ranking system. Beating a Bronze team shouldn’t influence your rank the same as beating an Onyx team.
The problem is your expectation.
Why would automatically expect to rank up every day?
That’s asinine.
Again. A simple win loss rank sort would be too slow. It would take 100’s if not 1000’s of games to sort the population. Maybe more. And in the meantime you would have horribly mis-matched games.
TrueSkill2 can do the same thing in 50 games.
Why would you go backwards?
They would be factors… but what are you going to do?
Life can suck.
None of the rest of your statements are relevant because you said this.
If you win 5/6 games, you should rank up. It’s ridiculous that you would argue with this so consistently.
I suggest doing some reading about (effective) ranking systems.
A Diamond team who beats five Platinum lobbies and loses to an Onyx lobby shouldn’t rank up. That would just put them up against teams they are not good enough to beat. As well as slowing the whole population ranking down.
What’s upsetting people is the scale of the CSR. They see their score go up 10 points and think they have ranked up. They haven’t. Their value is just oscillating. The system lacks that amount of precision.
In the good old days of 1-50 you wouldn’t rank up (or down) for weeks. People were oblivious to the machinations of their MMR and were happy.
343 have created this grinding mentality where they think 5 points is important.
At least Halo 5 hid the CSR value until you hit Onyx.
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Why are diamond teams matching platinum lobbies in ranked in the first place?
in your own words “again, population”
But why should the population being wonky prevent you from ranking up when you win 5 matches? Why be punished for the devs failing to make the game and the ranked playlist appealing enough for high skill-tier retention?
Why aren’t those platinums ranking up to diamond?
You’re highlighting the problems you say are being solved by the current SBMM system. You’re admitting we’re right about how broken it all is.
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~18 years. You’d have to go back to H:CE; though, I’m not exactly sure how H2 Vista’s (the PC port’s) matchmaking system operated.
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It was illustrative.
A D4 team that beats four D3 teams and loses to a D5 team shouldn’t rank up.
It’s that better?
Or how about teams ranked D4.5, D4.4, and D4.6
The principle is the same.
It’s very simple. If you want to rank up all you have to do is show the system you can beat the teams above you.
It’s not a terribly hard concept.
It’s not. It’s probably making the journey a little rocky - but the basic essence remains. Too rank up you need to beat teams above you and not lose to teams ranked below you.
You are still being ranked relative to the remaining population.
On the same token, why should any of that allow you to advance ranks you haven’t earned?
Because they aren’t consistently beating teams ranked above them.
At the moment they just aren’t good enough.
Not in the slightest.
Some of us believe that ranks should be earned fair and square. Not handed out as participation awards.
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Wow, I just read everything. @Darwi I admire your patience, your explanations are perfectly clear, but I have the impression that many people have trouble understanding.
For people who still think about the plot that the SBMM manipulates us to make us win/lose at 50:50, explaining it to you in an extremely simple way, If you win, it is considered that you played better, if you play better, you will face better than you, if you lose against them you will face less good players and so on. It is easy to understand that the result will inevitably approach 50:50.
For others who feel frustrated at not being able to increase their ranks, as Darwi already says, what you want is an xp progression system. If you want to be Onyx be as good as Onyx players, I know it’s hard to achieve and your ego takes a hit, but that’s the way it is. Your rank is not a reward, nor a punishment, it is an evaluation of your skills, and it is not because you win 5 times in a row, that you have the skills to rise in rank.
Just practice, play again and again until you get better, if you want to stop stagnating, you have to push yourself, and that’s hard.
I have only taken up what @Darwi has been saying for several days.
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of course they should, they won 4 out of 5 games
You have a very weird outlook on how ranked is supposed to work IMO. You think it should be about the fun of not playing mismatched lobbies (which it does now thanks to the bad population). Its actually about ranking up at all costs.
To top it off, we actually try to commit to the GA and only use certain tactics if someone else is doing it first. But when some jerk starts grapple-swording around Catalyst that’s mostly a throwaway game at that point because they’re almost unstoppable.
Winning matches is earned. You don’t start a game, the game end immediately because one of the enemies was a Plat 4 in a Diamond lobby, and you get a free W. You still have to commit time and energy to it and should be rewarded for winning the match, especially if you do well personally. Right now you’re not. It gives you a point or two maybe, but then if you lost that same match because of ANY random factor (in your opinion being shot through walls by desyncing players is a skill issue), then you lose a ton of progress.
Frankly the slow gains aren’t the real problem, its the HUGE losses for randomly losing one match against someone lower ranked even when its completely out of your hands. It makes it so you can waste an entire night playing just from one bad game. That’s why the ranked population is suffering in the first place.
The barrier should be from people outplaying you and winning, not from you just being unlucky with who you matched based on THEIR MMR vs YOUR MMR. That should only matter related to who you match in the first place. CSR shouldn’t be directly linked to your MMR, it should be a separate ranking system so its not so frustrating, and in many cases, not literally impossible to overcome.
Because the game is matching platinums against low onyx because it’s not working appropriately.
Once again, you’re accidentally proving our points.
Nobody is asking for free rank gains, they’re asking for the system to be fair. Right now, you have to actually CHEAT the system by artificially boosting your MMR in social in order to have your CSR gains be worthwhile.
You should read up about ranking systems. Especially ELO type ones.
After you’ve read up about skull curves.
Some more than others. Hence the general principle of ranking up according to the quality of your opponents.
Sounds like XP is the perfect tonic for this
Somewhere between 0 and 15 points is hardly HUGE.
Irrelevant for a team game.
I’m sure you gladly took the points and ran when you played badly in a win.
Perspective.
It is unlikely you improved in skill so not ranking up is not really a punishment.
Yes it should. Intimately.
We keep coming back to a performance based XP rank.
Here’s hoping 343 don’t drop the ball.
You are. Literally. Rank gain for every win.
No system is infallible.
And if someone cheats their way to a higher rank… I don’t know what else to say. If your ego is so fragile that you need that to feel better about yourself… Well good for you Tiger.
Evidently I know more about them than you
Ok, so add 2-3 points for tougher matches, not 15
XP for what, I maxed out the battlepass in like a month
15 is huge in the current system. Each tier is 50, meaning you have to win 4 matches at max CSR gains to rank up a tier. When you only gain 3 CSR per win but lose 15 per loss, its HUGE. Now you have to win 17 matches without losing a single one, because each loss adds 5 matches to your win requirement.
Do you STILL NOT SEE THE PROBLEM? I can’t believe you still can’t see the problem with this.
Everything is relevant in a team game when you’re required to win just to rank up. Every single aspect of what happens in the match matters and should be taken into consideration.
They can easily improve this by making Ranked slayer only until they figure out how to give weighting to objective play as well, because someone on the team is always left out by playing the OBJ to win the team the match, instead of farming kills.
Once again, you have no idea what this even means. You also keep assuming luck is skill, in a game with more glitches and bugs and poor optimization than almost any other on the market right now.
No, we don’t.
Yes, you should earn credit when you win games. Your opinion is that you should not earn credit for winning games, in which case I don’t understand what you think ranked even is.
Once again, you don’t understand what you’re talking about. You’re the one that thinks the MMR system is perfect. What you fail to realize is, its easy to manipulate by playing the relevant game types in social enough to buffer your ranked MMR. The matches aren’t any tougher than they were before, but you don’t lose tons of CSR because your MMR is higher than your CSR, and you gain more CSR because its trying to catch up.
THIS IS THE SYSTEM YOU THINK IS GOOD
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Ok.
But I’m assuming you still want maximum points for the win.
Upcoming XP rank. Should fill the criteria you are looking for.
If you have somehow actually improved in skill this shouldn’t be a problem.
If you aren’t good enough to get your MMR above your CSR then you haven’t significantly improved and don’t deserve to rank up.
What it is, is a handful of wins where you didn’t rank up so your CSR is higher than your MMR.
Try not to think of it as rank gained because you didn’t really progress in skill.
Don’t think of you CSR as a hard number, eg. 1350.
Think of it as a range… 1335 to 1350.
Get comfortable with small drifts to and fro.
And yes, it’s a silly CSR system. 343 need to drop it.
They have. All you need to know, over time, is the result.
Most other metrics are just noise in the background.
And as soon as they work out how to play properly as a team they will rank up.
Especially if they are good enough to win their 1v1’s.
Because the harsh reality is those who play the objective because they can’t win 1v1’s are really just ranking anchors.
No. I’m just assuming everyone is playing under the same conditions so are still distributed up and down the rank in much the same manner.
Unless, of course, all this only happens to you.
You do. A bit of CSR.
Just don’t get too attached to it
Never said that.
But I do think it works really well. And I haven’t seen data for any other system that is as far more as accurate in terms of ranking.
The CSR system? Not so much. 343 could do some work.
Again, if you are so desperate to push up your CSR in a bid to boost your self confidence. Good for you.
The alternative of actually getting better obviously doesn’t appeal.
But the downside is that your MMR will pick up your lack of actual improvement very quickly. It knows you aren’t good enough in like 1 or 2 games. Your CSR is now above your MMR and falls hard on the next loss.
Sounds familiar?
Problem is that the current SBMM algorithm in combination with:
- how the matchmaking system builds teams
- state of the netcode like desync, unreliable hit registration
- low player base
- high ping servers
- algorithm that determines how many CSR you list/win
Does not work. A solo queing player is lost.
Simple example, last season i was Platinum 5 on my way to Diamond. This season i was placed Gold 3. Plat 5 is 1100 CSR, Gold 3 is 800 CSR. I could how could i wanted, As soon that i won a few matches, i got teamed with plaver going -10 or worse. 2 time i had a losing streak of 70%. Most of my matches i went positive, got more than expected kills, but lost the match. When you play week after week and remain locked, then there are only 2 option. First, accept how it is and dont care. Second, stop playing infinite. I choose the second option.
I was SR 152 in Halo 5. Played more than 5 years Halo 5. I was a member of a big Halo 5 spartan company. All of them tried infinite, none remained.
This is something 343 should take notice.