So, how long do you think AR starts will last?

Games Halo Infinite
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> snip

I think we might be talking past each other a bit here, because I think we agree for the most part here?

We both seem to agree utility starts are good or at least better than auto starts. I just don’t think the BR specifically has ever been the primary cause of balance issues in past games. I may have misunderstood your post as being pro-AR start because AR start supporters love to pretend that the BR was the issue with the sandbox and not the bad design of other weapons

I don’t really have any special attachment to the BR, but in terms of what we know about the Halo Infinite sandbox it seems to be the only proper utility weapon in the game. The sidekick could be a great close range precision weapon, but based on what we know about it is closer to the Halo 5 gunfighter or a buffed up Halo 2 Pistol. Could be a good weapon, just not a suitable starting weapon on its own.

Unlike Halo 5, Infinite doesn’t seem to have a 4 other near identical utility weapons cluttering up the sandbox so we hopefully won’t have the same issues.

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I’m hoping there’s a nice comp playlist at launch. I’m fine with AR starts in social.

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> I’m hoping there’s a nice comp playlist at launch. I’m fine with AR starts in social.

The playlist selection has to be there at launch after Halo 5’s mess.

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BR all the way. Versatile, mid range precision weapon that requires skill to use. All you will do in auto slayer is make the BR dominate anyhow, lol… or DMR/Carbine.

The most important thing is to make the maps good, so all weapons are viable. That’s the thing 343 hopefully understands now. Every single Halo has a precision weapon of sorts. Be it magnum, dmr or br. BR being the most balanced of them all.

AR starts in general are boring, spam + melee. In Halo 5, the AR was broken til patch. The magnum in 5 fires too fast, to accurate + high magnetism, and beats every other precision weapon. Let alone the maps are pretty bad. The only AR start that is worth a squat is Halo 3. but we encounter the problem in the first sentence above. AR start fans are a small percentage of the player-base. If you want your own playlist, ask for it… don’t force it on the majority.

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I think it would depend on the game mode

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AR starts are common for the games in development for two primary reasons. Up close combat looks great for trailers. From all the footage of interviews/behind the scenes from previous halo games, a lot of people in the studio help with play testing even though some admit of their skills for FPS or arena style games aren’t up there with MLG

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The AR is a good noob weapon to just hold down the trigger and empty a clip on em.’ I feel like the current MCC separation of Auto Slayer and Precision Slayer is good enough.

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In Halo 3, the other weapons fill their specific roles just fine, they all fall into one or two range roles (close, close+mid, mid, mid+long, long) and stick within that grouping. The Battle Rifle on the other hand is effective at every range except extreme distances covered by the Sniper Rifle or Spartan Laser. The only time the BR loses to the AR for example is if the AR user gets the drop on the BR user. There is no reason to swap your BR out for another weapon unless it’s out of ammo. You are given the most versatile tool in the sandbox from the moment you spawn, and that is a fundamental problem because it damages the idea of specialised weapons that don’t insta-kill your enemies.

If BR starts are going to become the norm again, the weapon needs to lose its effectiveness at close range, and stop being the #1 choice in almost every situation. There has to be alternatives that are just as good if not better in specific scenarios. The Commando full-auto precision rifle in Infinite better be a powerful contender.

I’m still salty that the Halo 5 Assault Rifle was nerfed because the competitive scene complained it was beating the BR at close range and an equal weapon at mid range, which it should be. The BR still outclassed the AR at long range which gave it just as much of an edge.

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I think AR starts could facilitate a good pace of the game where players will spread out across the map to find BRs or other precision weapons to fight with. The BR in Halo 3 was incredibly strong and often I felt like there was no reason to get another weapon. I think the maps they showed in the trailer had a good mix of longer sightlines where a BR would dominate and closer range areas where an AR could be more effective. Granted it was only a trailer and I can’t really give a conclusive idea of how either AR or BR starts would play until I can actually play the game. I think at the end of the day it will come down to map design. If the AR is made to be a close range weapon that loses firepower rapidly starting at medium distances then I think it would be fine to have AR starts. The AR should dominate at close range. That is after all its intended role. The BR should be a mid-range to longer mid-range gun where you need to keep your distance a little bit in order to be most effective and to keep out of range of shotguns and Assault Rifles. The BR should still be somewhat effective at closer ranges but it should be harder to use and not just dominate close up. If there is a DMR it should be most effective and beat out a BR at long ranges, but lose most of the time to the BR at mid-range and be all but ineffective close range versus an AR. Again this would be determined by map design. You have to be able to choose the types of engagements you want to get into most of the time and then be able to fight to maintain control of those areas of the map where you will be most effective. If I want to main an AR then I should be able to have portions of the map where I can remain relatively close quarters. If I want to main the BR there should be areas of longer sightlines that I can use to my advantage. Map control after all is key to any arena-style shooter and Halo should be no exception to that.

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Probably permanent for social playlists, not so much for ranked.

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I really prefer AR starts. I prefer the BR as a weapon, but starting with it discourages closer engagement. With the AR start / pistol sidearm, you have to get a little closer to the enemy team right off the bat, unless you’re an eagle with the pistol. Starting with the BR both teams could hang back or more easily snipe enemy players off of initial special weapon spawns. BR > AR as a weapon choice, but AR Start > BR Start every time.

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> I really prefer AR starts. I prefer the BR as a weapon, but starting with it discourages closer engagement.

Close range combat is not diminished by BR starts. Why do you folks insist on making such baseless claims?

> With the AR start / pistol sidearm, you have to get a little closer to the enemy team right off the bat, unless you’re an eagle with the pistol.

And unless the enemy team walks away to go have a snack they will be right there waiting for you because a fresh spawn who is stuck with close range weapons is easy to predict.

> Starting with the BR both teams could hang back or more easily snipe enemy players off of initial special weapon spawns. BR > AR as a weapon choice, but AR Start > BR Start every time.

Hey, guess what? The other team will have an even easier time “sniping enemy players off spawn” because fresh respawns will not have the ability to fight back effectively at range.

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> > 2533274822298684;48:
> > I really prefer AR starts. I prefer the BR as a weapon, but starting with it discourages closer engagement.
>
> Close range combat is not diminished by BR starts. Why do you folks insist on making such baseless claims?
>
>
> > With the AR start / pistol sidearm, you have to get a little closer to the enemy team right off the bat, unless you’re an eagle with the pistol.
>
> And unless the enemy team walks away to go have a snack they will be right there waiting for you because a fresh spawn who is stuck with close range weapons is easy to predict.
>
>
> > Starting with the BR both teams could hang back or more easily snipe enemy players off of initial special weapon spawns. BR > AR as a weapon choice, but AR Start > BR Start every time.
>
> Hey, guess what? The other team will have an even easier time “sniping enemy players off spawn” because fresh respawns will not have the ability to fight back effectively at range.

And guess what else? That’s my opinion on the topic. Its not “baseless claims” like you toss out, its based on a lot of experience and play testing. Complaining that “my weapons off the rip aren’t good enough” is just venting frustration at poor performance.
In an arena shooter like this, claiming and controlling weapon drops/equipment over the enemy team is part of the game. Not starting with super versatile weapons encourages that. If you’re getting spawn camped, your starting loadout is not the problem.
The developers will tune the game including weapon starts how they want it to be played based on the tons of data they collect and use to do so, which so far, is AR Starts.

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As long as the maps have open spawns and ample precision pick-ups (which it always does) then all it takes is 1 good player and its very 1-sided.

The AR falls off too hard to be a useful starting weapon, its like only being able to spawn with pistols in cod. There is no effective range or power and when there is power there is no effective counter play, at least the CE plasma rifle was dodgable, so it created some metagame.

When you spawn ARs once there is clear power weapon control it is too 1-sided and it takes a lot of deaths and a losing game to come back from. It may only affect the top 20% of the population but its very noticable. The amount of times i steaked players my level on AR starts where it would otherwise be competitive, and vice versa, is most games.

My argument is that social slayer should be AR starts and other social playlists, and that ranked and BTB is always precision starts. Honestly it might disincentivise sweats to spawn kill in social as AR starts, even when 1-sided, is a bore.

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> 2533274822298684;50:
> And guess what else? That’s my opinion on the topic. Its not “baseless claims” like you toss out, its based on a lot of experience and play testing. Complaining that “my weapons off the rip aren’t good enough” is just venting frustration at poor performance.

A hilariously uninformed opinion given checks notes the entire history of the Halo franchise. Close quarters combat does not vanish just because you spawn with a utility weapon as their versatility has always allowed them to participate in CQC. This isn’t a debate over a difference of opinion you are just denying reality.

The fundamental issue isn’t that close range weapons like the AR can’t be good weapons(though auto weapons have frequently sucked as well), its that they are fundamentally unsuited to being the main starting weapon because they are an inherently niche weapon.

But if you want to talk about experience my stance is based on both my own experience victimizing fresh spawns which is backed up by Halo’s history. This isn’t me trying to brag, my point is that it isn’t difficult in the slightest to farm kills on fresh spawns and anyone who even slightly knows what they are doing can do the same.

> In an arena shooter like this, claiming and controlling weapon drops/equipment over the enemy team is part of the game. Not starting with super versatile weapons encourages that. If you’re getting spawn camped, your starting loadout is not the problem.

Due to a variety of factors Halo differs from most typical arena shooters, versatility off spawn is a requirement to keep matches as fair as possible. The only thing that discourages players from picking weapons up off the map is filling the map with bad and/or redundant weapons which has historically been a problem in Halo.

Folks whine about how other players are not picking up a small subsection of the sandbox that was filled with redundant, badly designed weapons and loudly complaining about how the BR(or any other utility weapon) starts creates a “one gun game” while refusing to address the actual problems with the sandbox.

> The developers will tune the game including weapon starts how they want it to be played based on the tons of data they collect and use to do so, which so far, is AR Starts.

Halo developers have consistently failed to deliver starting loadouts that satisfy the Halo community as evidenced by the fact that utility starts have always returned to dominate the game from CE to Halo 5, if they were ever gone to being with. Every single time. Even in games where the automatic and redundant clone weapons are legitimately good as in Halo 4/5 players still end up sticking to the same versatile weapons they always have. At best all you accomplish with close range auto starts is adding a pointless middleman to the proceedings where everyone one runs off to grab the nearest ranged weapon anyways. You’ve done nothing but waste everyone’s time.

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If the AR performs somewhere between the H5 AR pre & post overtime changes I can see it being a legitimate starting weapon for the small maps and with the pistol. Obviously for bigger maps the BR is the preferable starting weapon. As for defending against power weapon users, I tend to see that if someone who’s near a pro level has a sniper or rockets it really doesn’t matter what weapons they face and they get free kills. Better to either use teamwork or get a power weapon yourself to counter them.

As for the debate here, there has been a changing consensus regarding starting weapons ever since MCC came to PC over a year ago. Because of the lack of handicaps like aim assist and a mouse & keyboard being a more precise aiming system than a controller, weapons like the DMR & BR became too easy to use and way to dominating on many maps to the point that BTB was a camp fest. I think this goes back to how the weapons were designed for the Xbox games with controllers with much less reliable internet connections.

H5 had a good balance with the Pistol & AR being the two weapons balanced around. To the point I remember early on it was considered that BTB switch to that setup since the BR was a bit too strong at range. Not so much when it was nerfed.

I think just depends more on the map and what game mode at this point.

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Competive Playlist no AR starts
Social/BTB AR starts
If competitive has AR starts, that’ll be a yikes.

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> 2535444847804390;45:
> The only time the BR loses to the AR for example is if the AR user gets the drop on the BR user. There is no reason to swap your BR out for another weapon unless it’s out of ammo. You are given the most versatile tool in the sandbox from the moment you spawn, and that is a fundamental problem because it damages the idea of specialised weapons that don’t insta-kill your enemies.
>
> If BR starts are going to become the norm again, the weapon needs to lose its effectiveness at close range, and stop being the #1 choice in almost every situation.

The AR totally beats the BR at close range in Halo 3.

Almost all the specialised weapons (power weapons) are instant kill. I would say there are a bunch of useless weapons in the Halo 3 sandbox and it’s mostly dual wield weapons, but even they have their own gametypes, SWAT Magnums (VIP kinda) and whatever that social dual wield slayer gametype is. Which is fun, and they are funny to use in Fiesta when you spawn with something useless, but they all have their own features in the game, just not worth picking up in other gametypes. Why would anyone pick up a Spiker when the AR or Plasma rifle does it better? These weapons are nice to experience in the campaign too.

I think spawning with the most versatile weapon is imperative to Halo which means AR starts shouldn’t really be a thing. It works at lower levels, but is usually a nightmare to play at higher level. The AR starts are either one sided spawn traps or 12 minute standoffs.

Let’s say they buff the Carbine and it’s better than the BR. If everyone spawns with a BR then whoever has a Carbine literally has a power weapon. Rather than 2-3 power weapons to control on a map there are like 10. The diverse sandbox is there for lower skilled players to enjoy and for higher skilled players to generally ignore.

Everyone should be able to stand a fair chance on the spawn, because the enemy likely already have map control at that point so it’s already stacked against spawning players.

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> I couldn’t help but notice that all of the gameplay in the multiplayer reveal appeared to be AR starts.
>
> Considering Halo’s history with AR starts, that being it only works if the Magnum is a competent utility weapon, how long do you think it will be before the community pushes for BR starts to become the norm?
>
> The Sidekick is no CE/5 Magnum, so I really don’t think it will be that long.

It honestly needs to stay, keep BR or Pistol starts for ranked.

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> > 2535444847804390;45:
> > The only time the BR loses to the AR for example is if the AR user gets the drop on the BR user. There is no reason to swap your BR out for another weapon unless it’s out of ammo. You are given the most versatile tool in the sandbox from the moment you spawn, and that is a fundamental problem because it damages the idea of specialised weapons that don’t insta-kill your enemies.
> >
> > If BR starts are going to become the norm again, the weapon needs to lose its effectiveness at close range, and stop being the #1 choice in almost every situation.
>
> The AR totally beats the BR at close range in Halo 3.
>
> Almost all the specialised weapons (power weapons) are instant kill. I would say there are a bunch of useless weapons in the Halo 3 sandbox and it’s mostly dual wield weapons, but even they have their own gametypes, SWAT Magnums (VIP kinda) and whatever that social dual wield slayer gametype is. Which is fun, and they are funny to use in Fiesta when you spawn with something useless, but they all have their own features in the game, just not worth picking up in other gametypes. Why would anyone pick up a Spiker when the AR or Plasma rifle does it better? These weapons are nice to experience in the campaign too.
>
> I think spawning with the most versatile weapon is imperative to Halo which means AR starts shouldn’t really be a thing. It works at lower levels, but is usually a nightmare to play at higher level. The AR starts are either one sided spawn traps or 12 minute standoffs.
>
> Let’s say they buff the Carbine and it’s better than the BR. If everyone spawns with a BR then whoever has a Carbine literally has a power weapon. Rather than 2-3 power weapons to control on a map there are like 10. The diverse sandbox is there for lower skilled players to enjoy and for higher skilled players to generally ignore.
>
> Everyone should be able to stand a fair chance on the spawn, because the enemy likely already have map control at that point so it’s already stacked against spawning players.

I have to fundamentally disagree with that Carbine analogy, my dude. The Carbine, as it currently exists, is pretty much a reskinned Battle Rifle. Aozolai did a pretty good side by side comparison of the two weapons, and their performance metrics are 99% the same.

Halo 3 Analysis | Battle Rifle vs Carbine - Which is better?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCOzpPUssqw

Despite these two weapons being near-identical, and your performance unlikely to drop if you preferred the Carbine and picked it up every time, nobody would willingly swap out their BR for the weapon–because you spawn with the BR. That makes the BR more valuable, because everybody you kill is an ammo piñata. By simply spawning with the BR in nearly every game mode, it’s been put on a pedestal above the Carbine. That’s how important to the core gameplay your spawn weapon is. Never mind that this weapon is already superior to most of the sandbox, and it’s very dicey on if an Assault Rifle user wins in CQC or not. If you don’t get that melee, you may as well be tossing a coin.

Halo’s strength that’s been repeatedly ignored since the first updates to Halo 2’s matchmaking has always been that you trade up for power. That’s the entire purpose of the arena sandbox, and it should never be ignored, not even by pros. If you’re just pushing aside a good 60-70% of the tools, vehicles and weapons that exist, and then demand they never be changed or improved to make them valuable over the current meta gear, then what was the point of the blood, sweat and tears that was put into them by the concept artists and 3D modellers? Even in the campaign, who says “Oh thank God, a Spiker” when they’re forced to use it in Halo 3’s story mode? Nobody. So the solution is to make them better, make them valuable tools that people want to wield. Not let them fester while everybody uses the same five guns over and over.