> 2533274819446242;27:
> > 2533274882898126;25:
> > Kidding.
> > To be honest, if you’re in an Arena match and it gets to the point where the enemy team has every power weapon and power up on the map, you weren’t gonna win either way. The sidekick being a precision weapon requires some amount of skill to use, and it’s not difficult to best someone when you’re using an AR. Nobody ever uses it, yet anytime I decide to use it I completely annihilate people. If you’re predictable it’s not because of your weapons, it’s because you just don’t have the capacity to use your tools as they were meant to be used.
>
> I say these things because of my experience doing it to others. You are predictable because your weapon is inherently limited regardless of how good it might be, which inherently limits what you can realistically do. Other players are just as aware of your strengths and weaknesses as you are which is why you can’t rely on whatever super secret stat you think you have. You can split hairs about how much more predictable you are spawning with an AR, but the fact of the matter is that you are more predictable when you spawn with close range weapons than you are spawning with a versatile one and that inevitably leads to more one sided matches.
>
>
> > Like I get what you’re saying and I agree that the BR is more well-rounded since most engagements are either mid or long range, but certainly don’t discount the AR like it’s useless. The whole point of AR starts is to scavenge the battlefield and find weapons that might be more desireable for your playstyle. If you don’t like using automatic weapons in mid range, pick up something else or channel your inner marksman and make sure you land your shots with the sidekick. The AR is good at every range but long range. I can easily beat someone using the BR in close to mid range. What’s the point in having weapons on the map if everyone is just gonna be using the BR anyway?
> >
> > Point is, the AR is not a useless weapon and can be just as effective in mid to close range as the BR if you know what you’re doing.
>
> I not saying the AR isn’t or can’t be a useful weapon, only that it is inherently limited and unsuitable as the main starting weapon. Even in games where the AR is a good weapon, like Halo 4 and 5 precision weapons like the BR or H5 Magnum still dominate the field because they can respond to a variety of threats. It has more value as a niche tool you can pull out to try to give you an advantage at close range than it does as a starting weapon where the predictability of always spawning with an AR will work against you.
>
> The AR does not have the ability to realistically outrange rockets, it doesn’t have the capability stave off snipers and other ranged weapons. You can’t take the route with long sightlines because you will be a sitting duck. These are not situations that you can “get gud” your way out of because you simply do not have the tools to do so. The possibility of a fresh spawn turning the tide is so much higher when they spawn with a weapon that can actually respond to a variety of threats. Unlike other arena shooters the relatively lower speed, higher aim assist, weaker strafe and team focus means that you can’t dance your way out of bad situation off spawn. Utility starts whether they take the form of a Magnum, BR, DMR, result in more competitive (re:fair and balanced) than auto starts.
>
> Its been 20 years of devs and players learning the same lesson over and over again and after Halo 5 actually started us with a halfway decent weapon day 1 I actually hoped that 343 had finally learned their lesson, but now I’m back to being concerned.
This is one of the few things I liked about Halo 4 and 5. 343i planned to have utility starts from the get go. Knock Halo 4’s Loadout system as much as you want, I sure do, but at least I never had to rely on the devs changing the default spawn weapon to a utility one. Heck, I liked the fact that I could choose between the BR and the Carbine, because I like the Carbine and starting with it relieved me of the itch to go pick one up that saw me getting killed or ignoring far more important weapons (provided it even spawned on the map in the first place… Halo 2 and 3’s biggest flaw in my eyes is not making the Carbine more readily available on maps)
> 2533274882898126;28:
> I like your points. So, in this case, perhpas it’d be best to have AR starts in Social playlists (generally speaking) and BR starts for Ranked? With BTB maybe having BR/AR starts as prim and sec weapons.
See the thing is that I actually am a pretty casual player, I just don’t enjoy fighting against bad settings in addition to the other team. If we absolutely must have AR/Sidekick starts, either the Sidekick needs to absolutely blow my mind despite how it has been described so far or BR/precision starts need to at least be a match composer option ala MCC. Folks have been enjoying “BR”/Auto starts in very casual BTB for the entirety of Halo’s existence but for some reason folks get all weird about it when 4v4/8FFA gets involved.
I would be just as happy with universal AR/BR and I would be open to potentially trying out the commando, which itself seems like it was an attempt to marry the user friendliness of the auto weapon with the range capabilities of a precision weapon but for whatever reason got pushed to the wayside, but now I am getting into rampant speculation territory.
> 2533274819446242;30:
> > 2533274882898126;28:
> > I like your points. So, in this case, perhpas it’d be best to have AR starts in Social playlists (generally speaking) and BR starts for Ranked? With BTB maybe having BR/AR starts as prim and sec weapons.
>
> See the thing is that I actually am a pretty casual player, I just don’t enjoy fighting against bad settings in addition to the other team. If we absolutely must have AR/Sidekick starts, either the Sidekick needs to absolutely blow my mind despite how it has been described so far or BR/precision starts need to at least be a match composer option ala MCC. Folks have been enjoying “BR”/Auto starts in very casual BTB for the entirety of Halo’s existence but for some reason folks get all weird about it when 4v4/8FFA gets involved.
>
> I would be just as happy with universal AR/BR and I would be open to potentially trying out the commando, which itself seems like it was an attempt to marry the user friendliness of the auto weapon with the range capabilities of a precision weapon but for whatever reason got pushed to the wayside, but now I am getting into rampant speculation territory.
I would be cool with them experimenting with Commando starts. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if it replaces AR starts for “Auto Slayer”, essentially giving us the Commando/Sidekick combination in one gametype, and BR/AR in the other. Which would be good, because if BR/AR becomes the norm I don’t think we will ever see a Sidekick again xD
> 2533274810177460;31:
> > 2533274819446242;30:
> > > 2533274882898126;28:
> > > I like your points. So, in this case, perhpas it’d be best to have AR starts in Social playlists (generally speaking) and BR starts for Ranked? With BTB maybe having BR/AR starts as prim and sec weapons.
> >
> > See the thing is that I actually am a pretty casual player, I just don’t enjoy fighting against bad settings in addition to the other team. If we absolutely must have AR/Sidekick starts, either the Sidekick needs to absolutely blow my mind despite how it has been described so far or BR/precision starts need to at least be a match composer option ala MCC. Folks have been enjoying “BR”/Auto starts in very casual BTB for the entirety of Halo’s existence but for some reason folks get all weird about it when 4v4/8FFA gets involved.
> >
> > I would be just as happy with universal AR/BR and I would be open to potentially trying out the commando, which itself seems like it was an attempt to marry the user friendliness of the auto weapon with the range capabilities of a precision weapon but for whatever reason got pushed to the wayside, but now I am getting into rampant speculation territory.
>
> I would be cool with them experimenting with Commando starts. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if it replaces AR starts for “Auto Slayer”, essentially giving us the Commando/Sidekick combination in one gametype, and BR/AR in the other. Which would be good, because if BR/AR becomes the norm I don’t think we will ever see a Sidekick again xD
Like anything else it can be a map pickup as a close range oriented precision weapon with a blistering ttk balanced by the lack of range and the relatively shallow magazine(and aiming difficulty). I’m of the opinion that spawn weapons should be on the map anyways so changing settings won’t delete certain weapons from MM.
I hate BR starts. You don’t have to be able to shoot everyone you see off the rip and it literally ends up being 99% BR battles.
> 2533274823629657;33:
> I hate BR starts. You don’t have to be able to shoot everyone you see off the rip and it literally ends up being 99% BR battles.
You do if you don’t want the other team to just set up shop outside your spawn with a bunch of ranged weapons and win the game after the first major push.
> 2533274810177460;1:
> I couldn’t help but notice that all of the gameplay in the multiplayer reveal appeared to be AR starts.
>
> Considering Halo’s history with AR starts, that being it only works if the Magnum is a competent utility weapon, how long do you think it will be before the community pushes for BR starts to become the norm?
>
> The Sidekick is no CE/5 Magnum, so I really don’t think it will be that long.
Balance suffered greatly in the past games because of the existence of the BR. I think it will launch with BR starts for competitive.
> 2533274842046585;35:
> > 2533274810177460;1:
> > I couldn’t help but notice that all of the gameplay in the multiplayer reveal appeared to be AR starts.
> >
> > Considering Halo’s history with AR starts, that being it only works if the Magnum is a competent utility weapon, how long do you think it will be before the community pushes for BR starts to become the norm?
> >
> > The Sidekick is no CE/5 Magnum, so I really don’t think it will be that long.
>
> Balance suffered greatly in the past games because of the existence of the BR. I think it will launch with BR starts for competitive.
The BR has never been the issue with balance outside of just being 1 of 2-5 redundant precision weapons in any given game. The balance issues have always been because of a small subset of shallow, redundant weapons that were bad at their jobs. You could remove the BR completely from any of the games that feature it and another near identical weapon would still be their to take its place filling the exact same role and the same subset of bad weapons would still be bad and/redundant.
Stop scapegoating the BR because both developers failed to fill the sandbox with truly worthwhile alternatives.
> 2533274819446242;36:
> > 2533274842046585;35:
> > > 2533274810177460;1:
> > > I couldn’t help but notice that all of the gameplay in the multiplayer reveal appeared to be AR starts.
> > >
> > > Considering Halo’s history with AR starts, that being it only works if the Magnum is a competent utility weapon, how long do you think it will be before the community pushes for BR starts to become the norm?
> > >
> > > The Sidekick is no CE/5 Magnum, so I really don’t think it will be that long.
> >
> > Balance suffered greatly in the past games because of the existence of the BR. I think it will launch with BR starts for competitive.
>
> The BR has never been the issue with balance outside of just being 1 of 2-5 redundant precision weapons in any given game. The balance issues have always been because of a small subset of shallow, redundant weapons that were bad at their jobs. You could remove the BR completely from any of the games that feature it and another near identical weapon would still be their to take its place filling the exact same role and the same subset of bad weapons would still be bad and/redundant.
>
> Stop scapegoating the BR because both developers failed to fill the sandbox with truly worthwhile alternatives.
Slayer starts vs a BR…why do you think they even CREATED BR starts?..pretty straightforward dude…don’t even need to diverge any further than that…but I’ll add more to it. You need to spawn in with a main utility weapon and have the match feel balanced. It’s completely obvious how bad slayer starts were…It will always repeat that way. You get 1 of 2 things happening. Either your start weapons are completely garbage and the other weapons are OP in comparison, or you raise the starter weapon too much and the other weapons don’t serve their purpose. Hitting the sweet spot ain’t an easy task… Look at halo 5. Couldn’t get the BR right. Weapons do become redundant at that point. It’s basically better to just have 1 or the other at that point.
Weapons should fill niche roles and play styles. Advantages and disadvantages. No weapon aside from a power weapon should have such a huge advantage (outside of their role) that the match is basically over without grabbing one. Stop pretending this isn’t what happened.
The entire point Is that your starter weapon be your main utility weapon. If its the br, dmr, or pistol/Magnum, whatever as long as in the match there isn’t this elephant in the room saying hello…I’m the problem. So to see an AR and sidearm…knowing the side arm isn’t the magnum of 5 obviously…OP is just stating the obvious. So my thing is…get rid of such a weapon (whatever it is…but history shows its been the BR…this is clearly undeniable by now and the entire reason why it became COMPLETE garbage in 5…the h5 BR…)having such a huge advantage on the maps to where you could lock the entire team out of getting them. At that point it goes beyond spawn trapping and completely breaks the game.
So I stand by what I’ve said. Pretty sure competitive settings will have BR starts at launch if the non competitive playlist is AR side arm starts…It will yet once again clearly illustrate that the game is only balanced that way. Why else would they do it?..You either got a pistol/Magnum everyone moans and groans about…or the nostalgia of an old game with bad balance needing a BR starts mode…pick one.
If I completely misunderstood whatever point you were trying to make and you feel that I’m not interpreting what you said correctly I apologize and feel free to elaborate and perhaps even give your idea of the ideal sandbox of weapons halo should have…all while you, the player…not feeling extremely under powered on your next spawn losing the weapons you had just picked up because the starting weapons aren’t competent. Maybe that would help me understand, and who knows maybe you’d make the most sense of what would really work in the game…because from my experience and many others…man slayer starts in the old games were reaaaaaaal bad bro…
> 2533274842046585;37:
> snip
I think we might be talking past each other a bit here, because I think we agree for the most part here?
We both seem to agree utility starts are good or at least better than auto starts. I just don’t think the BR specifically has ever been the primary cause of balance issues in past games. I may have misunderstood your post as being pro-AR start because AR start supporters love to pretend that the BR was the issue with the sandbox and not the bad design of other weapons
I don’t really have any special attachment to the BR, but in terms of what we know about the Halo Infinite sandbox it seems to be the only proper utility weapon in the game. The sidekick could be a great close range precision weapon, but based on what we know about it is closer to the Halo 5 gunfighter or a buffed up Halo 2 Pistol. Could be a good weapon, just not a suitable starting weapon on its own.
Unlike Halo 5, Infinite doesn’t seem to have a 4 other near identical utility weapons cluttering up the sandbox so we hopefully won’t have the same issues.
I’m hoping there’s a nice comp playlist at launch. I’m fine with AR starts in social.
> 2533275031939856;39:
> I’m hoping there’s a nice comp playlist at launch. I’m fine with AR starts in social.
The playlist selection has to be there at launch after Halo 5’s mess.
BR all the way. Versatile, mid range precision weapon that requires skill to use. All you will do in auto slayer is make the BR dominate anyhow, lol… or DMR/Carbine.
The most important thing is to make the maps good, so all weapons are viable. That’s the thing 343 hopefully understands now. Every single Halo has a precision weapon of sorts. Be it magnum, dmr or br. BR being the most balanced of them all.
AR starts in general are boring, spam + melee. In Halo 5, the AR was broken til patch. The magnum in 5 fires too fast, to accurate + high magnetism, and beats every other precision weapon. Let alone the maps are pretty bad. The only AR start that is worth a squat is Halo 3. but we encounter the problem in the first sentence above. AR start fans are a small percentage of the player-base. If you want your own playlist, ask for it… don’t force it on the majority.
I think it would depend on the game mode
AR starts are common for the games in development for two primary reasons. Up close combat looks great for trailers. From all the footage of interviews/behind the scenes from previous halo games, a lot of people in the studio help with play testing even though some admit of their skills for FPS or arena style games aren’t up there with MLG
The AR is a good noob weapon to just hold down the trigger and empty a clip on em.’ I feel like the current MCC separation of Auto Slayer and Precision Slayer is good enough.
In Halo 3, the other weapons fill their specific roles just fine, they all fall into one or two range roles (close, close+mid, mid, mid+long, long) and stick within that grouping. The Battle Rifle on the other hand is effective at every range except extreme distances covered by the Sniper Rifle or Spartan Laser. The only time the BR loses to the AR for example is if the AR user gets the drop on the BR user. There is no reason to swap your BR out for another weapon unless it’s out of ammo. You are given the most versatile tool in the sandbox from the moment you spawn, and that is a fundamental problem because it damages the idea of specialised weapons that don’t insta-kill your enemies.
If BR starts are going to become the norm again, the weapon needs to lose its effectiveness at close range, and stop being the #1 choice in almost every situation. There has to be alternatives that are just as good if not better in specific scenarios. The Commando full-auto precision rifle in Infinite better be a powerful contender.
I’m still salty that the Halo 5 Assault Rifle was nerfed because the competitive scene complained it was beating the BR at close range and an equal weapon at mid range, which it should be. The BR still outclassed the AR at long range which gave it just as much of an edge.
I think AR starts could facilitate a good pace of the game where players will spread out across the map to find BRs or other precision weapons to fight with. The BR in Halo 3 was incredibly strong and often I felt like there was no reason to get another weapon. I think the maps they showed in the trailer had a good mix of longer sightlines where a BR would dominate and closer range areas where an AR could be more effective. Granted it was only a trailer and I can’t really give a conclusive idea of how either AR or BR starts would play until I can actually play the game. I think at the end of the day it will come down to map design. If the AR is made to be a close range weapon that loses firepower rapidly starting at medium distances then I think it would be fine to have AR starts. The AR should dominate at close range. That is after all its intended role. The BR should be a mid-range to longer mid-range gun where you need to keep your distance a little bit in order to be most effective and to keep out of range of shotguns and Assault Rifles. The BR should still be somewhat effective at closer ranges but it should be harder to use and not just dominate close up. If there is a DMR it should be most effective and beat out a BR at long ranges, but lose most of the time to the BR at mid-range and be all but ineffective close range versus an AR. Again this would be determined by map design. You have to be able to choose the types of engagements you want to get into most of the time and then be able to fight to maintain control of those areas of the map where you will be most effective. If I want to main an AR then I should be able to have portions of the map where I can remain relatively close quarters. If I want to main the BR there should be areas of longer sightlines that I can use to my advantage. Map control after all is key to any arena-style shooter and Halo should be no exception to that.
Probably permanent for social playlists, not so much for ranked.
I really prefer AR starts. I prefer the BR as a weapon, but starting with it discourages closer engagement. With the AR start / pistol sidearm, you have to get a little closer to the enemy team right off the bat, unless you’re an eagle with the pistol. Starting with the BR both teams could hang back or more easily snipe enemy players off of initial special weapon spawns. BR > AR as a weapon choice, but AR Start > BR Start every time.