Ive read some threads here about people complaining, hating, on the weapon drop system in Halo 4 claiming that it creates a “Lack of Skill”, “Punishes good Players” and blah blah blah. However isnt the system much like how in halo 3 you had to fight for, Camo or Overshield?. In my opinion it seems like these “skilled” “mlg” “map controlling” players are somewhat scared that they might not be able to handle a bunch of players going to the same weapon spawn they are headed to. They talk about strategy, outsmarting, etc. However, I see no threads about how they are going to adapt and still prove that they can play competitively. The way I see it if they were as good as they say they are they would be to devise a new plan and still be able to win…what I see here is a bunch of whining.
> Ive read some threads here about people complaining, hating, on the weapon drop system in Halo 4 claiming that it creates a “Lack of Skill”, “Punishes good Players” and blah blah blah. However isnt the system much like how in halo 3 you had to fight for, Camo or Overshield?. In my opinion it seems like these “skilled” “mlg” “map controlling” players are somewhat scared that they might not be able to handle a bunch of players going to the same weapon spawn they are headed to. They talk about strategy, outsmarting, etc. However, I see no threads about how they are going to adapt and still prove that they can play competitively. The way I see it if they were as good as they say they are they would be to devise a new plan and still be able to win…what I see here is a bunch of whining.
This proves that you don’t know anything about MLG.
> Ive read some threads here about people complaining, hating, on the weapon drop system in Halo 4 claiming that it creates a “Lack of Skill”, “Punishes good Players” and blah blah blah. However isnt the system much like how in halo 3 you had to fight for, Camo or Overshield?. In my opinion it seems like these “skilled” “mlg” “map controlling” players are somewhat scared that they might not be able to handle a bunch of players going to the same weapon spawn they are headed to. They talk about strategy, outsmarting, etc. However, I see no threads about how they are going to adapt and still prove that they can play competitively. The way I see it if they were as good as they say they are they would be to devise a new plan and still be able to win…what I see here is a bunch of whining.
Like I’ve said on almost all these threads and I’ll keep saying it until you people understand. Having to time weapons merely brings depth to the game. Players with spawn knowledge have advantages over players who don’t. And what were you talking about H3 camo and custom? You had to time those also.
And it’s not like we’ll have to adapt to anything since it would just be like everyone knowing the spawn times which happens quite a bit.
> > Ive read some threads here about people complaining, hating, on the weapon drop system in Halo 4 claiming that it creates a “Lack of Skill”, “Punishes good Players” and blah blah blah. However isnt the system much like how in halo 3 you had to fight for, Camo or Overshield?. In my opinion it seems like these “skilled” “mlg” “map controlling” players are somewhat scared that they might not be able to handle a bunch of players going to the same weapon spawn they are headed to. They talk about strategy, outsmarting, etc. However, I see no threads about how they are going to adapt and still prove that they can play competitively. The way I see it if they were as good as they say they are they would be to devise a new plan and still be able to win…what I see here is a bunch of whining.
>
> This proves that you don’t know anything about MLG.
Then please sir, enlighten me…SHOW ME THE WAYS…Honestly, its quite pathetic for you “MLG” players to be broken so easily by a few changes in a game.
> Like I’ve said on almost all these threads and I’ll keep saying it until you people understand. Having to time weapons merely brings depth to the game. Players with spawn knowledge have advantages over players who don’t. And what were you talking about H3 camo and custom? You had to time those also.
> And it’s not like we’ll have to adapt to anything since it would just be like everyone knowing the spawn times which happens quite a bit.
I would assume you guys would be up for the challenge…Everyone knowing where everything is…and when it will spawn…then having to skillfully fight for it. Whats the problem with that?
> I would assume you guys would be up for the challenge…Everyone knowing where everything is…and when it will spawn…then having to skillfully fight for it. Whats the problem with that?
That completely goes against map control.
I think it will work itself out. I’m excited about weapon drops. Now I know where the other teams going to be even more, and I can sit back and take out all the lifeless zombies running straight into the drop site.
> > I would assume you guys would be up for the challenge…Everyone knowing where everything is…and when it will spawn…then having to skillfully fight for it. Whats the problem with that?
>
> That completely goes against map control.
Everyone knowing where everything is, knowing when it spawns, everyone fighting over one location… NOTHING HAS CHANGED! The only difference it holds is where it spawns each time during a match.
timing power weapons and powerups spawns…
Seems to me to be a necessary skill to learn in a FPS. Because that’s all the match turns into in “serious games” (dangerously close to an oxymoron)
Players with this timing knowledge shouldn’t claim that they are better at halo than others. They are just taking that one extra obsession driven advantage over the other players who are more involved and impressed with the mechanics and gameplay and not clock memorization.
If you take that timing element out of the equation what do you have?
A battle driven, less camp happy, and more equal matches then ever before.
If you are worried that you will never touch a power weapon again because you have no idea where it’s gonna be and when it will get there, tough cookie. A pro should have no problem disarming a power weapon wielding noob anyway or you better team up on that guy (communicate).
Still upset that you may not touch a power weapon? GUESS WHAT? turns out they are dropping power weapons all over the freakin place all at the same time! “Guess we can’t camp here anymore, We gotta go out and compete or DEATH by rockets” AND this match in particular just took a wild swing on how it is going to play from here on out. (this should happen multiple times in a single match)
and not… “blue team just picked up all the power weapons again because their timing is flawless and therefore makes this game more enjoyable for everybody” Thats BS and everybody should know it.
How they implement ordinances will not be like invasion slayer I would hope to promise all of you out there. But don’t try to convince people that static spawns are more appreciated by skillful players other than dynamic ones. How the weapons spawn is irrelevant when discussing skill or strategy building. old strategies will have to be updated (face it clock watchers). This is how the revolution won. because we refused to line-up and get shot by red-coats.
This is elementary folks.
Obviously you guys just don’t understand that it brings depth to the game. Your guys’ arguments are very weak.
Lol, wow. I’m really sorry, but you guys have NO idea, at all do you?
This argument is long done. Timing weapons is still possible, its just merely harder. Which I have no issue with. The reason it WAS such a big deal was because the GI article made it seem like the weapon drops were completely unpredictable and random. Which Frankie has already denied saying they are variable, but still predictable.
The main reason for initial concern was this for an example:
In a game of Team Slayer, 50 kills to win. Score is:
Red:49
Blue:48
Rockets drop directly next to a blue player, they get two easy kills and win, due to a lucky weapon drop. Not skill, this was the original worry. But not now.
This argument is old.
Stop trolling and trying to give ya crap
A lot of players are making me really hate the word “skill”. Not for what it means, but because they treat it as the ultimate undefeatable rebuttal. They don’t need to explain themselves or anything, they just need to say something doesn’t have skill and apparently that’s it.
Also, they ignore the word “skill” if someone who doesn’t agree with them uses it. Because clearly only they know what it means…
OP is right, the new system does promote skill worth the name, not camping or experience or memorising maps, but knowledge of maps, teamplay and map control.
Anyone can camp weapon spawn points, even a 45 years old casual mom, they can also time weapon spawns (really, it’s not that hard), it takes no real “skill”.
The new system on the other hand lets all players know when power weapons are arriving, what and where, so even new players have a chance at getting them. Further more, map control is more important then ever since camping 2-3 spots ain’t enough, you must be able to mobilize and take any given key area to get that weapon.
Teamplay is more important too since everyone will know where and when the weapon spawns, hence there will be competition, and the better team will claim the weapon, or at least the team that plays as a team, lone wolf guys will be obliterated. Map knowledge still matters, but now not only weapon spawns, but LoS and the fastest way to get to point A without getting killed.
> > I would assume you guys would be up for the challenge…Everyone knowing where everything is…and when it will spawn…then having to skillfully fight for it. Whats the problem with that?
>
> That completely goes against map control.
Memorizing spawns =/= map control.
> Players with this timing knowledge shouldn’t claim that they are better at halo than others. They are just taking that one extra obsession driven advantage over the other players who are more involved and impressed with the mechanics and gameplay and not clock memorization.
Technically, they are. Knowledge is a skill of its own kind. When a player plays the game first time, they lack huge amounts of skill the first time because they don’t know the game, they don’t know how the mechanics work, they don’t know how maps are constructed, they don’t know how spawns work. All that lack of knowledge makes them perform less optimally. Coincidentally, optimal performance ≈ skill. So, yes that knowledge in itself is skill.
But it’s not skill of knowing when a weapon will spawn that is important. After all, in high level play, everyone knows when the weapons will spawn and knowledge being a fairly shallow skill, nothing intresting comes out of it. Where the skill is then, is the strategy and the encounters. Knowing exactly when and where a weapon will spawn allows better coordination, which allows deeper strategies. Strategies on the other hand, most definitely drop under the category of skill. Then there are the encounters, which you possibly have to win when getting to a power weapon because there is teh possiblity that an opponent has timed the power weapon too.
> If you take that timing element out of the equation what do you have?
>
> A battle driven, less camp happy, and more equal matches then ever before.
> If you are worried that you will never touch a power weapon again because you have no idea where it’s gonna be and when it will get there, tough cookie. A pro should have no problem disarming a power weapon wielding noob anyway or you better team up on that guy (communicate).
If we take the timing out of the equation, we have a slightly more caothic and less skillful match. As, as I described in my previous paragraph, timing weapons in itself isn’t much of a skill, but it adds lots of skill.
Removing timed power weapons does none of the things you say it does. Battle driven? Anyone had the chance to time power weapons, matches could’ve been battle driven if people had learnt that skill. In fact, high level matches were battle driven because all people knew when and where a weapon will spawn. This creates much more fluid gameplay.
The game most certainly won’t be any more “camp happy”. The most common misconception for people who don’t understand is probably the “Oh, but timing weapons creates camping”. No, it doesn’t. In fact, it’s an anti-camping tool. When you think about it, if you know exactly when and where a weapon will spawn, why would you have to camp? Why would you waste precious time on a weapon spawn when you know the weapon won’t spawn in a while and when you know exactly when it spawns and can walk over the spawn at that exact moment? That’d just be insane, and that’s why no one who actually knows when a weapon will spawn camps on the spawn.
> Still upset that you may not touch a power weapon? GUESS WHAT? turns out they are dropping power weapons all over the freakin place all at the same time! “Guess we can’t camp here anymore, We gotta go out and compete or DEATH by rockets” AND this match in particular just took a wild swing on how it is going to play from here on out. (this should happen multiple times in a single match)
Again there is no point in this paragraph. As I said, only a person who lacks knowledge would claim that static weapon spawns cause camping and don’t create battles. The removal of static spawns only makes the game a little less strategic and less skillful. It really brings nothing new. No new important skills are born out of randomness.
> and not… “blue team just picked up all the power weapons again because their timing is flawless and therefore makes this game more enjoyable for everybody” Thats BS and everybody should know it.
Again, you completely ignore the fact that red team shouldn’t be playing against blue team in the first place if they lack the ability to time power weapons. There is a reason skilled players aren’t meant to fight against less skilled players. We should only assume that if the blue team can time power weapons, so can the red team, in which case both teams are equal and every time a weapon spawns, encounter is created by the people trying to get it.
You seriously need to understand the concept that anyone has the possibility to time a power weapon. If someone, for some reason, lacks said ability, they shouldn’t be playing against people who can do it in the first place. That’s where a well working ranking system comes in. It should be there to provide everyone an enjoyable experience with other players on their skill level.
> How they implement ordinances will not be like invasion slayer I would hope to promise all of you out there. But don’t try to convince people that static spawns are more appreciated by skillful players other than dynamic ones. How the weapons spawn is irrelevant when discussing skill or strategy building. old strategies will have to be updated (face it clock watchers). This is how the revolution won. because we refused to line-up and get shot by red-coats.
>
> This is elementary folks.
With certainity I can tell you that you lack the knowledge pertaining to the skill of the game. You don’t understand the way static spawns create skill, you don’t understand how even slightly random weapon spawns take skill away and add nothing interesting to gameplay. You can ask any actaully skillful player do they favor static spawns on weapons or dynamic. If they are actually skillful and play on high levels, they say statistics. If they also happen to have deep understanding of the game and time, they tell you why, possibly in an even deeper manner than I did.
Just shows how much everyone doesn’t understand released information, and competitive players.
In Halo 3, Reach or any other game. I do not camp power weapon spawns. My team and I time it, and set up just before the spawn. If drops were variable at different points on the map. It would actually promote camping those areas just in case rockets for example spawned there. But with the way it is being done, it does promote nap movement and flow, becauee I’m sorry. But the people that can time spawns and put the effort into setting up are going to have a huge advantage over the kids seeing the hud icon up and rushing. DIE KID!
> OP is right, the new system does promote skill worth the name, not camping or experience or memorising maps, but knowledge of maps, teamplay and map control.
> Anyone can camp weapon spawn points, even a 45 years old casual mom, they can also time weapon spawns (really, it’s not that hard), it takes no real “skill”.
>
> The new system on the other hand lets all players know when power weapons are arriving, what and where, so even new players have a chance at getting them. Further more, map control is more important then ever since camping 2-3 spots ain’t enough, you must be able to mobilize and take any given key area to get that weapon.
> Teamplay is more important too since everyone will know where and when the weapon spawns, hence there will be competition, and the better team will claim the weapon, or at least the team that plays as a team, lone wolf guys will be obliterated. Map knowledge still matters, but now not only weapon spawns, but LoS and the fastest way to get to point A without getting killed.
Again, as I said to Treeman, all your points are incorrect. Static weapon spawns don’t encourage camping. The new system on the other hand, doesn’t add skill and doesn’t promote knowledge, team play or map control any more than static weapon spawn system. I already explained everything that in my previous post, so instead of writing everything that again, I will simply ask you to read the post. Let me just say that considering what you just wrote, you seem to be very misinformed on the subject and have a very perverted view on what actually creates skill.
> Again, as I said to Treeman, all your points are incorrect. Static weapon spawns don’t encourage camping. The new system on the other hand, doesn’t add skill and doesn’t promote knowledge, team play or map control any more than static weapon spawn system. I already explained everything that in my previous post, so instead of writing everything that again, I will simply ask you to read the post. Let me just say that considering what you just wrote, you seem to be very misinformed on the subject and have a very perverted view on what actually creates skill.
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Again, as I said to random dude in some thread, all your points are incorrect. Instead of actually writing a post or offer a decent argument or two, I just run and hide since I got noting to say. I got no idea what I’m talking about, but I do discredit you and make a few insults so I look cool at least, since that’s what the other kids do. I know deep down that I’m wrong and wouldn’t stand a chance since I, as I said before, lack arguments, but I know that change is bad and I sure love my camping. Got a new tent and even marshmallows for Halo 4 :’("
My interpretation of your post, and really, if you got nothing to say, refrain from posting so you don’t risk making an fool of yourself. It’s so sad to see, it really is…
Since you got no arguments, I’ll just add mine again and show how superior they are, since any argument is better then none, even when talking to someone who’s on his high horses and won’t even realise when he’s wrong (that’s you, if you wonder).
- Sword base, Haemorrhage = perfect examples of how useless the old system is. Both shows how easy the old system is to exploit and how it encourages camping and lone wolf gaming, in a team based shooter.
With the new system camping elevator room would be pointless since shotty wouldn’t be free 30m away when ever you need it. Same goes for Haemorrhage sniper, no more camping the base or even killing teammates to get it, play as a team to get it or loose it. To make it simple for you, I just ask you to prove how the old system makes these 2 maps so much better, then they would be with the new system where you have to move to get power weapons, and play as a team to control them?
Well, you can’t because you’re wrong and deep down you know it, however admitting to that would require you to act like an adult. Heck, even though you know it is pointless you strive to defend a system so obviously dated, so inferior, just to get your cheap advantages?
Haha, that’s laughable at best.
I’m sorry, but you’ll have to learn true teamplay, play as a team, and map control as in “control of the map”, not “rush a weapon spawn”. Really, anyone with a webbrowser can know the weapon spawns for any map, add a timer and you’re as “skilled” as you get by your definition. Do you realise how hollow that argument is?
I’m glad they’re bringing a new system that promotes teamplay and true skill, where the better team gets the weapons, not the best campers ^^
Excellent write up Tsassi. Patience, something I’be lost on this forum.
Everything I wanted to say, explained perfectly.
As long as the weapons spawns are somewhat predictable, everyone gets the appropriate heads-up, and the weapon drops aren’t unfair, the core gameplay should be fine.
What I am concerned about: are the weapons going to spawn at set intervals, such as rockets every three minutes? Will the weapons respawn even if a player is holding them (max count)?
Grumbledock. Your argument is terrible. How about you actually read Tsassis write up.
to disprove your two points.
1: That flaw is in map design. The shotgun should not be placed that close to an obvious camping spot. Also the room should be grenadeable. Whuch, ad far as IM concerned it is. So maybe you rush, and or play against really bad players.
2: The cR system should be based on team performance, not individual performance. Weapon hoarding and camping in Reach is due to the no reward for teamwork cR system. Not static weapon spawns.