Simplicity vs Innovation

Games Other Halo
1

This post is directed towards anyone who dislikes Armor Abilities, dislikes Halo: Reach, or wants the default Halo 4 multiplayer to be as simple as Halo 1 and 2. I’m not trying to troll. I’m just trying to get a actual, honest conversation going without igniting a flame war. So please be respectful of others.

Please hear me out fellow Halo veterans, I share your passion

I agree with the philosophy about simplicity in design, but I don’t think that Halo: Reach was overly complicated at all. I think that some people just don’t want new pillars of game design in new Halo games, because they change the basics and force veteran players to change the intricacies of their play-style.

Allow me to explain the pattern. Unlike core gameplay mechanics from a previous Halo game (e.g. weapons, grenades, melee attacks and vehicles), veteran Halo players do not have more experience than new players in using a new game’s additional core gameplay mechanic (like equipment in Halo 3 and AAs in Reach.) Therefore, veteran players do not have the edge over newcomers in that regard. They find themselves being killed by new players who are making use of the additions to the basic game design while they learn to play for the first time. Whereas some veterans believe that their skills and strategies from the previous Halo game should instantly make them an expert at the new one. Obviously, the game must have deviated from what “Halo meant to them” individually.

This inevitably leads to groups of people who think the new game is broken, unbalanced, and “not Halo.” In reality, it isn’t broken or inherently unbalanced. It’s just a different game than the one that came before and should be approached as such with an open mind towards adopting new strategies. Do new features need tweaking sometimes? Yes, but just because they aren’t perfectly refined doesn’t mean Halo games should go back to square one. Obviously we all want Halo games to “feel like Halo games,” but for some that seems to mean “don’t ever evolve, add to, or iterate on the core mechanics and strategies.” With all the negativity in these forums towards the multiplayer of Halo: Reach, many people are completely over-looking numerous innovations and improvements that game brought to the Halo franchise (AAs and bloom are not the only new features of Reach.)

The PC versions of Halo 1 and 2 still support online play. Halo 3 is still going strong. If you prefer the multiplayer design of one of those games then you should go play it, because Halo 4 will have new features. These features will change the intricacies of the way we play multiplayer, weather AAs remain or not.

I understand where you are all coming from. It is frustrating when I get killed by new players, but I’d rather have a game where I need to adapt new strategies instead of pining for the simpler multiplayer design of a game that came out 10 years ago.

Obviously what we all want is a fun, balanced, and competitive game. At the very least, we should all agree that classic and modern default settings should be implemented into the multiplayer matchmaking of Halo 4 to appease both camps.

-Wiz

2

I got to level 40 in Halo 2.

I got my first 50 in Halo 3 17 days after release.

I got rated Onyx first season in Reach’s Arena (the one with all the AA’s).

Skill does transfer, and it is not because of noobs being on the same level that we don’t like the changes.

3

I want Halo to keep the core mechanics of H1-3 but at the same time evolve. Halo Reach was a failure. Lowering jump height, making movement really slow, adding bloom, AA’s were fun at first but after became horrible.

I want H4 to bring back equipment, just make it better. Classes suck, everyone should start with an equal chance of being successful, AA’s ruin the game because you have to keep one from when you spawn till you die, sure you can switch every spawn but they suck because they are not pick ups. If 343 can tweak the equipment system so it can bend to both competitive and casual players then it will be perfect. Well that’s just my opinion anyway.

4

> I got to level 40 in Halo 2.
>
> I got my first 50 in Halo 3 17 days after release.
>
> I got rated Onyx first season in Reach’s Arena (the one with all the AA’s).
>
> Skill does transfer, and it is not because of noobs being on the same level that we don’t like the changes.

I think you missed the point of my post. Of coarse skill transfers. I said some people expect their skill to transfer instantly. It did for you, so you obviously adapted quickly and were already a skilled player. I’m not trying to question your, or anyone else’s, skill. I’m just trying to say that we shouldn’t expect every game to be the same experience with the same strategies.

And I never said that “noobs” were on the same level as veterans due to the changes. I was trying to say that new players don’t have the experience of playing the old games, and “the basics” of what defines a Halo game are different to them.

5

LoadOut’s were GOOD they allowed game to be more Customized, and Classes are only when the Player has full control on what they get. Not only 0-5 choies

6

> This inevitably leads to groups of people who think the new game is broken, unbalanced, and “not Halo.” In reality, it isn’t broken or inherently unbalanced. It’s just a different game than the one that came before and should be approached as such with an open mind towards adopting new strategies. Do new features need tweaking sometimes? Yes, but just because they aren’t perfectly refined doesn’t mean Halo games should go back to square one. Obviously we all want Halo games to “feel like Halo games,” but for some that seems to mean “don’t ever evolve, add to, or iterate on the core mechanics and strategies.” With all the negativity in these forums towards the multiplayer of Halo: Reach, many people are completely over-looking numerous innovations and improvements that game brought to the Halo franchise (AAs and bloom are not the only new features of Reach.)
>
> -Wiz

I completely agree with this paragraph
Good post , worth reading.The Veterans should really change their attitude stop
being very askful for a halo 3.1 multiplayer because no matter how hard you explain
halo 4 will still change.The game needs something new to hook other gamers to the series.

7

It’s not that I expect to be better than everyone else, as I know I’m an average player and don’t expect to be better than anyone else, and I’m not against innovation either, but the core mechanics that made the game popular should stay. I’m talking gameplay where you start with guns, grenades and melee only when you spawn, everyone starts off equal and on the same foot, and vehicles can dominate anyone without a power weapon. Things like that. It should innovate, but shouldn’t cross those boundaries.

8

> > This inevitably leads to groups of people who think the new game is broken, unbalanced, and “not Halo.” In reality, it isn’t broken or inherently unbalanced. It’s just a different game than the one that came before and should be approached as such with an open mind towards adopting new strategies. Do new features need tweaking sometimes? Yes, but just because they aren’t perfectly refined doesn’t mean Halo games should go back to square one. Obviously we all want Halo games to “feel like Halo games,” but for some that seems to mean “don’t ever evolve, add to, or iterate on the core mechanics and strategies.” With all the negativity in these forums towards the multiplayer of Halo: Reach, many people are completely over-looking numerous innovations and improvements that game brought to the Halo franchise (AAs and bloom are not the only new features of Reach.)
> >
> > -Wiz
>
> I completely agree with this paragraph
> Good post , worth reading.The Veterans should really change their attitude stop
> being very askful for a halo 3.1 multiplayer because no matter how hard you explain
> halo 4 will still change.The game needs something new to hook other gamers to the series.

halo 3.1 is not a valid Argument, so stop using it. Reach tried to “hook” other gamers in, and look what happened with that. It was trying too hard. Why alienate the old fan base that got you there to begin with, Does not make sense to me.

I am not against change, But that change better be good.

9

> Allow me to explain the pattern. Unlike core gameplay mechanics from a previous Halo game (e.g. weapons, grenades, melee attacks and vehicles), veteran Halo players do not have more experience than new players in using a new game’s additional core gameplay mechanic (like equipment in Halo 3 and AAs in Reach.) Therefore, veteran players do not have the edge over newcomers in that regard. They find themselves being killed by new players who are making use of the additions to the basic game design while they learn to play for the first time. Whereas some veterans believe that their skills and strategies from the previous Halo game should instantly make them an expert at the new one. Obviously, the game must have deviated from what “Halo meant to them” individually.
>
> This inevitably leads to groups of people who think the new game is broken, unbalanced, and “not Halo.” In reality, it isn’t broken or inherently unbalanced. It’s just a different game than the one that came before and should be approached as such with an open mind towards adopting new strategies. Do new features need tweaking sometimes? Yes, but just because they aren’t perfectly refined doesn’t mean Halo games should go back to square one. Obviously we all want Halo games to “feel like Halo games,” but for some that seems to mean “don’t ever evolve, add to, or iterate on the core mechanics and strategies.” With all the negativity in these forums towards the multiplayer of Halo: Reach, many people are completely over-looking numerous innovations and improvements that game brought to the Halo franchise (AAs and bloom are not the only new features of Reach.)
>
> The PC versions of Halo 1 and 2 still support online play. Halo 3 is still going strong. If you prefer the multiplayer design of one of those games then you should go play it, because Halo 4 will have new features. These features will change the intricacies of the way we play multiplayer, weather AAs remain or not.
>
> I understand where you are all coming from. It is frustrating when I get killed by new players, but I’d rather have a game where I need to adapt new strategies instead of pining for the simpler multiplayer design of a game that came out 10 years ago.
>
> Obviously what we all want is a fun, balanced, and competitive game. At the very least, we should all agree that classic and modern default settings should be implemented into the multiplayer matchmaking of Halo 4 to appease both camps.
>
> -Wiz

thats the problem.

with halo reach, nearly every single core game mechanic (every AA, melee, grenades, shooting) is broken, or blatantly suboptimal in the eyes of many players. not only that, a lot of the mechanics are just flat out worse, and not even remotely debatable. you can say ‘bloom is fine’ in default reach, buy you will be 100% wrong because its factually broken, and it factually does not work as intended by bungie.

i really dont understand why you think us ‘veteran players’ are on even terms with people when it comes to AA’s. if anything, we are able to integrate the use of AA’s into our gameplay and gamestyles EASIER than newer players (not that we should be playing these new players in the first place, but we will anyways, constantly and consistently because reach matchmaking is abysmal).

good example of this is evade. my motto is literally ‘spawn with evade, win the game’. why? because it fits my playstyle perfectly. i am able to take my already superior grasp of the game, then apply this AA in full to push my skill to the point where im often times able to simply flat out win the game because of my ‘enhanced’ actions, plus the actions of my (hopefully semi-)competent teammates.

AA’s arent the inherent problem bro, its their implementation thats abysmal. jet pack should not be in halo, period. it throws MAP CONTROL out the window, and for no foreseeable gain other than some people like using it. and why wouldnt they like using something this god-tier incredible? the problem isnt that people like it, and that others dont like it (hate it, rather), the problem is that it convolutes the game and makes it play like a childrens FPS game instead of a SERIOUS FPS game where map control, terrain, and movement actually matter in the slightest.

then you have armor lock, that is so trashy i literally dont even have to explain why its stupid for halo because you already know why.

or sprint, letting people simply RUN AWAY whenever they are down a single shot in a DMR battle, or receive any damage whatsoever (oh, and mini nukes to throw behind in the choke points you ran thru helps here too LOL)

or invis, letting good players know exactly where you are…

or hologram, being literally 100% useless when you could pick ANYTHING else because all the other AA’s are strictly better.

AA’s arent the problem. its terrible implementation thats the problem, along with game-breaking aspects of certain AA’s that have no place in halo, regardless of their implementation (like jet pack, for example).

10

> with halo reach, nearly every single core game mechanic (every AA, melee, grenades, shooting) is broken, or blatantly suboptimal in the eyes of many players. not only that, a lot of the mechanics are just flat out worse, and not even remotely debatable. you can say ‘bloom is fine’ in default reach, buy you will be 100% wrong because its factually broken, and it factually does not work as intended by bungie.
>
> i really dont understand why you think us ‘veteran players’ are on even terms with people when it comes to AA’s. if anything, we are able to integrate the use of AA’s into our gameplay and gamestyles EASIER than newer players (not that we should be playing these new players in the first place, but we will anyways, constantly and consistently because reach matchmaking is abysmal).
>
> good example of this is evade. my motto is literally ‘spawn with evade, win the game’. why? because it fits my playstyle perfectly. i am able to take my already superior grasp of the game, then apply this AA in full to push my skill to the point where im often times able to simply flat out win the game because of my ‘enhanced’ actions, plus the actions of my (hopefully semi-)competent teammates.
>
> AA’s arent the inherent problem bro, its their implementation thats abysmal. jet pack should not be in halo, period. it throws MAP CONTROL out the window, and for no foreseeable gain other than some people like using it. and why wouldnt they like using something this god-tier incredible? the problem isnt that people like it, and that others dont like it (hate it, rather), the problem is that it convolutes the game and makes it play like a childrens FPS game instead of a SERIOUS FPS game where map control, terrain, and movement actually matter in the slightest.
>
> then you have armor lock, that is so trashy i literally dont even have to explain why its stupid for halo because you already know why.
>
> or sprint, letting people simply RUN AWAY whenever they are down a single shot in a DMR battle, or receive any damage whatsoever (oh, and mini nukes to throw behind in the choke points you ran thru helps here too LOL)
>
> or invis, letting good players know exactly where you are…
>
> or hologram, being literally 100% useless when you could pick ANYTHING else because all the other AA’s are strictly better.
>
> AA’s arent the problem. its terrible implementation thats the problem, along with game-breaking aspects of certain AA’s that have no place in halo, regardless of their implementation (like jet pack, for example).

Again, I think you’re missing the point of my post and misunderstanding me.

Let me help you out:

  • Nowhere did I defend Reach’s bloom here, I’m not a fan of it.
  • I’m not saying AAs are implicated perfectly. I know they aren’t, but I’d like to see them be refined so they can be implicated better. That said, I don’t feel they “break” the game in any way for me personally and I find them enjoyable to use.
  • I never said that it was harder for us veterans to integrate AAs into our play-style or that newcomers are automatically as good as us because of them. What I meant to get across is that there are people who have stepped into Reach with no prior Halo experience and do not think AAs break the “Halo experience” because it is their Halo experience. AAs are something they got used to from the start. My point is what you think “works” and “doesn’t work” in terms of AAs stems from your expectations based on previous Halo games. The thing is, Halo: Reach isn’t Halo 1-3. Halo 4 isn’t going to be either. To you, the changes in Halo: Reach make it “broken” and “blatantly suboptimal.” To me, the changes make it different than the games I’ve already played while still feeling like a Halo game. Those our the opinions and we’re entitled to them.
  • I’m not saying AAs should absolutely be or not be in Halo 4

The purpose of this post was not to bicker about AAs, but discuss the idea of how us as a community feel about iterating on this franchise. There’s a lot of talk about people wanting Halo 4 to play just like Halo 2 and that seems like taking steps backwards to me. Why not continue to iterate and refine in a new game? Obviously risks are taken when new ideas are implemented into games, that’s the nature of game development. I’m trying to find some common ground between those fans who oppose change and those who want new experiences. Hopefully, all of us are somewhere in-between.

11

> I want Halo to keep the core mechanics of H1-3 but at the same time evolve. Halo Reach was a failure. Lowering jump height, making movement really slow, adding bloom, AA’s were fun at first but after became horrible.
>
> I want H4 to bring back equipment, just make it better. Classes suck, everyone should start with an equal chance of being successful, AA’s ruin the game because you have to keep one from when you spawn till you die, sure you can switch every spawn but they suck because they are not pick ups. If 343 can tweak the equipment system so it can bend to both competitive and casual players then it will be perfect. Well that’s just my opinion anyway.

Way to fail. You talk about wanting the Core mechanics of Halo 1, 2, and 3, yet you complain about moving slower and not being able to jump as high. In Halo Reach, you move faster than you did in Halo 1 and 2, and jump higher than in Halo 1. Originally, Halo Reach was modeled entirely after Halo 1 (which people had been wanting a return to a more classic experience), but instantly complained when the game deviated from Halo 2 and 3’s jump height and movement.

And then Bloom: I will say it’s far from perfect, but people don’t seem to understand that they all mightly H1 pistol had bullet spread, of which bloom is a HUD visualization.

The only point I can agree with is your comment on AAs, at best.

12

> LoadOut’s were GOOD they allowed game to be more Customized, and Classes are only when the Player has <mark>full control</mark> on what they get. Not only 0-5 choies

By this logic, BC3 isn’t class based.

13

> > I want Halo to keep the core mechanics of H1-3 but at the same time evolve. Halo Reach was a failure. Lowering jump height, making movement really slow, adding bloom, AA’s were fun at first but after became horrible.
> >
> > I want H4 to bring back equipment, just make it better. Classes suck, everyone should start with an equal chance of being successful, AA’s ruin the game because you have to keep one from when you spawn till you die, sure you can switch every spawn but they suck because they are not pick ups. If 343 can tweak the equipment system so it can bend to both competitive and casual players then it will be perfect. Well that’s just my opinion anyway.
>
> Way to fail. You talk about wanting the Core mechanics of Halo 1, 2, and 3, yet you complain about moving slower and not being able to jump as high. <mark>In Halo Reach, you move faster than you did in Halo 1 and 2</mark>, and jump higher than in Halo 1.

Thinking like this, would make Jeremiah look like a -Yoink- for adding extra running speed, and jump heigh for Team Classic.

Do you actually know how bad it feels to play no AAs without any change made to movement and jump?

It’s just horribly slow…

14

> > I want Halo to keep the core mechanics of H1-3 but at the same time evolve. Halo Reach was a failure. Lowering jump height, making movement really slow, adding bloom, AA’s were fun at first but after became horrible.
> >
> > I want H4 to bring back equipment, just make it better. Classes suck, everyone should start with an equal chance of being successful, AA’s ruin the game because you have to keep one from when you spawn till you die, sure you can switch every spawn but they suck because they are not pick ups. If 343 can tweak the equipment system so it can bend to both competitive and casual players then it will be perfect. Well that’s just my opinion anyway.
>
> Way to fail. You talk about wanting the Core mechanics of Halo 1, 2, and 3, yet you complain about moving slower and not being able to jump as high. In Halo Reach, you move faster than you did in Halo 1 and 2, and jump higher than in Halo 1. Originally, Halo Reach was modeled entirely after Halo 1 (which people had been wanting a return to a more classic experience), but instantly complained when the game deviated from Halo 2 and 3’s jump height and movement.
>
> And then Bloom: I will say it’s far from perfect, but people don’t seem to understand that they all mightly H1 pistol had bullet spread, of which bloom is a HUD visualization.
>
> The only point I can agree with is your comment on AAs, at best.

Are you sure? I did not really play Halo2 so I assumed it was like 1 and 3. I have Hale1 on pc and the movement seems way faster then in Reach as well as the jump height seems higher. Halo3 was the game I played the most for Halo so I was mostly referring to that experience. But seriously, I played Halo just about a week ago and it surprised me when I felt like chief was speed walking up the beach in Silent Cartographer. Not sure how high the jumps are in CE but they should be how they were in H3, a good 3 meters.

15

Great post, could not agree more. The only thing 343 needs to do is make sure the new changes are Fun.

16

Really bro? You’re basically saying that AA’s are frustrating because we have about as much experience with them as players whose first halo game was Reach.

That is ridiculous.

AA’s and bloom just make the game a joke.

17

If I see Halo 4 have any of the following and I will quit Halo altogether: Bloom, Loadouts/AAs, slow moving speed, Reach’s melee system or nini nukes.

Waiting till the 15th to see if they made Reach fun with the anniversary playlist.

18

> > > I want Halo to keep the core mechanics of H1-3 but at the same time evolve. Halo Reach was a failure. Lowering jump height, making movement really slow, adding bloom, AA’s were fun at first but after became horrible.
> > >
> > > I want H4 to bring back equipment, just make it better. Classes suck, everyone should start with an equal chance of being successful, AA’s ruin the game because you have to keep one from when you spawn till you die, sure you can switch every spawn but they suck because they are not pick ups. If 343 can tweak the equipment system so it can bend to both competitive and casual players then it will be perfect. Well that’s just my opinion anyway.
> >
> > Way to fail. You talk about wanting the Core mechanics of Halo 1, 2, and 3, yet you complain about moving slower and not being able to jump as high. <mark>In Halo Reach, you move faster than you did in Halo 1 and 2</mark>, and jump higher than in Halo 1.
>
> Thinking like this, would make Jeremiah look like a -Yoink!- for adding extra running speed, and jump heigh for Team Classic.
>
> Do you actually know how bad it feels to play no AAs without any change made to movement and jump?
>
> It’s just horribly slow…

It’s just that some fanboys reject things they know nothing about (ignorant much).

19

> Really bro? You’re basically saying that AA’s are frustrating because we have about as much experience with them as players whose first halo game was Reach.
>
> That is ridiculous.
>
> AA’s and bloom just make the game a joke.

That’s not what I’m trying saying.
I’m saying AAs are frustrating to some because they were not a part of the original Halo games we learned to play and people who started with Reach don’t complain because it’s part of “the basics” to them. They aren’t “essential Halo mechanics” to you, but they are for many others. Longtime Halo players should play Reach for what’s great about it and not wish they were still playing Halo 2. Nobody should expect Halo 4 to take steps backwards in design innovation and variety. If you’d rather play Halo 1-3, you still can.

Maybe what you thought I was saying was true when the game first launched, but now there is a more even playing field.

20

> The only thing 343 needs to do is make sure the new changes are Fun.

Yes, fun is key.

> If I see Halo 4 have any of the following and I will quit Halo altogether: Bloom, Loadouts/AAs, slow moving speed, Reach’s melee system or nini nukes.

Let’s be realistic, here. You’re an active member on the official Halo forums, you’re going to play Halo 4.