This overdone tactic has just about destroyed Halo Wars. If you’re reading this, you probably know what I’m talking about, but I’ll elaborate:
I play 3v3 or 2v2 with my friends every other night and without fail, we will encounter a team using this strategy. To break it down, the opposing team will have either the Chieftain, Arbiter and a UNSC character, or two UNSC characters and either the Chieftain or the Arbiter. As soon as the leader <strike>pop out, the micro-managing will begin.</strike>
<strike>One leader can be stopped. It will do a bit of damage, but, alone, a leader rush can be thwarted. Two leaders at a base is, of course, a lot tougher. They will do a lot moar damage, but, if the defending players work together, the two leaders can still be overpowered. But the leaders are nothing but a diversion; sent to waste resources of the defending players. While my mates and I are busy trying to overthrow a Covenant leader or two [at only two or three minutes into the game] the UNSC character will be working on an army of Scorpions, while the Covenant players build up Banshees. Or, in the case of one Covenant leader attacking with two UNSC characters, the leader will stroll in with an army of Warthogs, while the second UNSC character builds up an army of tanks.</strike>
<strike>Anyway, my question is; how on Earth is it possible to defend against Scorpions and Banshees when:</strike>
<strike>1). All resources have been used defending against the diversion, and;</strike>
<strike>2). Anti-vehicle/air requires tech three to build as UNSC, while tanks only require tech two and, similarly, Vampires require tech two, while Banshees only require tech one?</strike>
<strike>So far, the only answer I can come across is to defend with the exact same units.</strike>
<strike>This means we will have to anticipate the rush and then be forced into playing the exact same way as our opponents, every time we come up against it, which hardly seems fun at all. And, if we’re wrong, it means we’ve built up a stupid tank/Banshee rush force and are no better than our would-be attackers.</strike>
<strike>Is there a way around this rush which we have not encountered?</strike>
<strike>So far, the closest we’ve come is massing a Warthog army and driving it straight to a Covenant base in a pre-emptive rush - which only worked once.</strike>
<strike>And still, we felt dirty doing it because we don’t believe there is any skill involved in a rush, and fail to see how anyone takes any enjoyment out of it, as opposed to a longer game with actual skill.</strike>
<strike>The bottom line in this drawn out, rant of a question is that this rush involves no actual skill; it is nothing but a formula followed by players who would fail in a longer game, where they’d have to think on their feet and/or would rather win at absolutely any cost.</strike>
<strike>Good for you; you can follow a formula.</strike>
<strike>But really, what’s the point?</strike>
After an hour or so of perusing through the forums, I’m sad to say I’ve learned that I was right; the only way to defend against this bollshot rush is to try and hit the enemy first, with pretty much the exact same units - which just seems cheap.
If I’m wrong, please offer advice.
I’m not entirely against rushing; people should be able to play however they want - but I do feel that the rush tactic I’ve mentioned is too unbalanced.
In any other RTS I’ve played, rushes could be countered with a decent defence, but Halo Wars offers far fewer options against this rush, mainly revolving around a [quicker] offensive stance - which is hardly playing defensively at all…
Couple of questions I’d like answered before I tell you what I think and how it can be handled in 2v2. First off, in 2v2 how long does it typically take you to get the rushing covey leader off your base? If you are playing straight defense it shouldn’t take too long (unless you’re playing defense poorly). Secondly, after you push off the covey leader rush, what do you do? What you mentioned about a counter-rush to match theirs is done a lot, but sometimes playing defense is a good option (unless your covey is a chieftain).
Counter attack vs an arbiter or vs a hog rush with your own hogs + leader powers to deny depos/summits.
D-bomb with gunner hogs vs a chieftain then counter attack to deny summits.
You can’t defend with no offense vs a double covy UNSC team because you give them free summits + expansions.
Gauss banshee arby >>> tank banshee arby on every map assuming you’re playing a meta combo.
edit: if you want to play defensively then do so - Brute with brute squad defense vs an arbiter or other brute into a counter attack to deny summits or arbiter defense with hogs and grunts and rage into a counter attack to deny summits works fine.
Let me highlight something important about what was just posted, Cyborg: You stop their production. Here’s a common problem for players today, they let the other team rush, then let them produce. It doesn’t matter what strategy game you play, if you put resources into defense and don’t push back, you’re further behind than the guy who’s rushing. The only way defense works is if you deny mid-game production while getting yours up.
In every scenario, if you’re not on the other team’s side at some point in the game, you’re going to lose no matter what because you’re not slowing them down, but they’re slowing you down.
Thank you for the replies.
> edit: if you want to play defensively then do so - Brute with brute squad defense vs an arbiter or other brute into a counter attack to deny summits or arbiter defense with hogs and grunts and rage into a counter attack to deny summits works fine.
The problem with this is playing defensively against this rush [in 3v3] DOES NOT WORK. The only way around it we’ve found [and others in this thread seem to have confirmed] is a pre-emptive rush. However, this will usually happen while a leader or two is on their way to [or at] a team base on our side. Without assistance, that base will go down, so the game turns into a “who will lose their base first” kind of game.
Another thing, which I didn’t mention earlier, is that we like to play as ‘random all’ and make up our strategies on the fly. Sometimes, we’re dealt a bad hand, sometimes not.
I guess my point to this post is that there should be enough balance in the game to take a defensive stance against this rush and hold it off. And, by defensive, I don’t mean hitting their base first and dropping a d-bomb on their grav. lift to prevent troop drops at our base, or leader powers defending their own. Every other rush has a defensive strategy which can be exploited, but not this one, which is why I know Ensemble would have corrected it, if still in business. Because of this weakness in the game development, all players are forced to take an immediate aggressive stance, or risk being rushed themselves. That is NOT balance. For every aggressive stance, there should be a defensive solution - even if it means you’re slightly worse-off economically for it. Taking a defensive approach should NOT seal the game within only a few minutes.
You’re missing the point. The defensive options are there and are ALL VERY VIABLE up till like 40, 45 TS with nearly every combo.
What I’m assuming you’re failing to do is counter attack. Every defense has some sort of follow up offense or tech play and if you just push off a rush and fail to expand or tech afterwards you’re failing.
All UNSC leaders and the arbiter are able to play strictly defensive assuming you defend while expanding and play defense on your FE.
Brute and POR in COVY mirrors have to utilize their ability to harass or to have a strong offense and have weaker defensive plays because a covy mirror is generally a battle to summit first.
Since you seem to be missing what I’m saying, I’ll give you an example.
Vs a typical double arby anders, you get cutter/forge/brute.
You scout a double temple 2nd and reactor 3rd gunner (standard) and go temple 2nd brute and double reactor 3rd gunner(also a standard offensive/defensive build able to adapt for either as necessary).
You can either offense with the chief to force an arbiter to play D (or otherwise you win) on his own with double hogs on D, offense with hogs with chief(Forces 1 arbiter and hogs or 2 arbiters no hogs on D) and hogs+dbomb on D or you can defend with double hogs and brute squads (will force the double arby/anders to bless pads and expand rather than rushing as damage won’t be done). You’d dbomb kill one arbiter then immediately offense with 10-12 hogs and your brute squads while getting up tanks and summits behind your pressure.
If they deny your depo/summits rather than defending the counter pressure you’ll continue hog production and tech grenadier and continue to build brutes and chief tech.
From here you want the chief to get up vamps to deal with banshees and protect the tanks and you want to secure an expo. Tanks will protect the covy base and the expansion till vamps are up.
This is a good example of a defense of a rush that hits between 1:30 and 2:30 and counterattacks between 4:00 and 6:00 to deny production/expansions and allow your own. By opting to rush the rushing team makes themselves vulnerable to a counter push when they’re weak and if you fail to counter attack vs an all out rush you’ll end up behind.
If the double arby anders opts for a double temple 3rd with bless pads and reactor 4th hogs you’ll be able to double clear expansions using the same opener with hogs and stack brutes while going on offense with your chief - then the hogs will defend a single expansion till it has a few pads then counter attack with dbombs, gren and carpet/mac on covy pads to punish greedy economic builds while expanding yourself.
Neither examples are ‘rushes’ because they aim to allow your own team to tech/expand/boom economy. Unless the enemy is sacrificing their own economy to attack you you have to plan to counter attack. A good example is against double brute anders rush, if they double temple first and reactor 2nd gunner you can defend the entire time with hogs into tank/wolve and brutes into vamps because the brutes are going to have much later summits and the anders much later gauss so you are ahead just by defending. Vs an economic harass like temple 2nd or 3rd you’d be forced to counter attack.
I’m a General and have been for a while, but I don’t play enough these days to learn how to fight off these kinds of attacks. I’ll take the advice listed here for the next time I play, but I do agree this play-style is way too common. I’m hoping that when 343 says they have more stories to tell in the Halo Universe, like they have been recently, that one of those stories is Halo Wars 2.
In the sequel, hopefully there’s almost twice as many units as there are now. Maybe people won’t be so quick to repeat their same lame strategies over and over again. That and they should re-think the triangle Halo Wars runs on (Infantry beat Air, Air beat Vehicle, Vehicle beats Infantry). In the next game, each unit should have units they specialize in killing. I know that exists already, but not something as broad as Wolverines that are good against all air units. More like Wolverines- Effective against slow moving aircraft: Vultures, Phantoms, etc.
Incase that wasn’t clear enough, I’ll post more examples. The point I’m trying to make though is when units have less of an effective range, you’re forced to make more than 1 or 2 types of units to defeat your enemies.
Examples:
Ghost- Effective against Marines, Grunts, Brutes, and Elites.
Warthog- Effective against Ghosts, Grunts, Brutes, Elites, Marines, and Hornets.
Chopper- Effective against Warthogs, Marines, Ghosts, Grunts, Brutes, and Elites.
Wolverine- Effective against Vultures and Phantoms.
Anything with a Spartan Laser- Effective against Hornets, Banshees, Falcons, and Vampires.
Cobra- Effective against Scorpions, Wraiths, Rhinos, and Scarabs.
UNSC Light Armored Vehicle- Effective against Ghosts, Locust, Warthogs, Wolverines, and Cobras.
I’ll stop there, hopefully anyone reading get’s the idea. I don’t think just because the enemy is building Vehicles means a Human has to build Cobras or Gremlins. I think to effectively fight back you need the correct units instead of something that does good against a third of the available units. Then again, most people would disagree because of how easy Halo Wars is to learn and play, but that’s just what I think.
That’s the case… moreso in 1s.
Vs a Covy building brute/jackal into hunter jackal you can’t mass flamers. You need hogs+flamers into flamers + tanks + gauss hogs, for example, or in a UNSC mirror it ends up being a tank/cobra/gremlin vs tank/cobra/gremlin battle if players open similar or it becomes tanks + hogs + wolves vs hogs + gremlins + hornets
In teams, tanks soft counter nearly everything in the midgame gauss hogs soft counter nearly everything except tanks in the midgame, arbiters counter everything if you have adequate micro and economy, so a tank + arbiter or gauss + arbiter with air as needed counters nearly everything with proper harass.
I feel your frustration bud. The lack of effective variety in this game really kills it. I dislike being forced into the same strategies again and again. I have found, so long as you aren’t playing anyone too good, that so long as you use light harrassment with warthogs then you will preven them from rushing and delay things until the mid game, which I personally enjoy a lot more.
By light harrassment, I mean attacking with a force large enough that the enemy is forced to react to, but nothing large enough to do serious damage. This leaves both teams around equal footing considering the fact that even though you are technically doing better economically, you don’t actually want to win things immediately and will let them get onto an even footing while you prepare your own army. I realize this sounds incredibly stupid to intentionally do, but people like myself and Cyborg both enjoy mid-late game much more.
So if covies attack, attack their base with some hogs or your own covie. Attack with just enough to kill their leader once he is forced to defend his base. This is easiest to do because you really should be building at least 3-4 hogs off the beginning even without trying to counter rushes, gather supplies and dominate scouting, so just build a few more to get the job done.
In short, prevent them from rushing but don’t go for the kill
> So if covies attack, attack their base with some hogs or your own covie. Attack with just enough to kill their leader once he is forced to defend his base. This is easiest to do because you really should be building at least 3-4 hogs off the beginning even without trying to counter rushes, gather supplies and dominate scouting, so just build a few more to get the job done.
>
> In short, prevent them from rushing but don’t go for the kill
You’re really on the right track with this. A vast majority of high level play is based on causing the maximum amount of damage with the smallest amount of input cost. Often times, overspending a rush can lose you a match in a high level game, so gauging yourself for the mid-game is just as important as the early game. I can’t tell you the last time I played a challenging game when the goal was to kill a base, it’s all about harassment.
Okay I read this thread the other day, and I figured I’d give my advice. You probably won’t agree with it, but IMO it will help so try to hear me out.
The first thing you need to do is read this:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
(I had trouble loading this today so you may have to refresh a few times)
At the risk of sounding like a jerk, it looks like you and your team are a textbook example of what this chapter is talking about. Your team needs to start doing these strategies that you have a problem with. You need to learn how to actually play Halo Wars so that you improve and get out of this rut you’re in.
I used to think that “rushing” in this game was overpowered like you say, but I’ve since learned that’s not true. This game goes way deeper than that. IMO, the key is being active with your units and dangerous at all times. If you don’t do that, you’re just going to be steamrolled by this same thing again and again. You need to learn how to play properly, and the first step is to start mimicking these rush strategies that you’re having problems with.
Eventually you’ll lose. This will help you understand where the weaknesses are, and you’ll get to the point where you’ll be able to go toe to toe with other teams using this strategy. Good. That’s when you move on. Eventually you’ll know how to dial it back and make better, less risky decisions that still get the job done. That means you’re getting better.
In videogames in general I’ve always been sure to learn the “correct” way to play, then turned back to combine the “correct” way with what I personally believe to be strong or what I simply like doing. Halo Wars is no different. Hopefully learning to play like the people that beat you will get you to a point where you can combine what works with what you want to do. This way you’ll be earning the right to play the way you want to by winning with it, instead of just -Yoink!- it and being frustrated when things don’t go your way.
Now of course, doing this requires convincing your teammates and a lot of coordinated effort. That’s probably the hardest part lol.
…
TL/DR: Do what makes you win and don’t avoid what you don’t like and you’ll be able to learn and move past it.
“This overdone tactic has just about destroyed Halo Wars”… Seriosly LOL’d!
This IS Halo Wars, it’s not destroying anything.
Best help I can offer is search youtube for “high level halo wars”. MarcoStyleNL is my fav there. But there are others with good 2v2/3v3 vids.
I can vouch for Marcostyle nl. Great channel.
The first thing that I would like to say to you, Cyborg, and I don’t mean to offend you, is that neither you nor your partners should be running random all, because you clearly are not good enough for that. Learn a specific leader well and learn the basics of this game. Halo Wars is the most beautiful game since Chess. There is very little that is wrong with the game (with the exception of the Arbiter). I think that the problem is that you are not playing the game correctly. And this is a symptom of MANY players in this game so you’re not alone. Listen to what MLG Hitzel was saying and read the link in his post.
Most lower level players believe that rushing is a cheap tactic which is very easy to carry out. You always hear them saying “it takes no skill to rush someone’s base”. Well to this I have to say to them - try it, it’s harder than you think. Any decent player should be able to fend off an attack. They may even counter you at the same time. The point is that the first attack (rush) is never usually carried out as a plan to destroy someone’s base outright, it is merely designed to slow down their opponent’s production. Now, many players don’t know how to defend adequately against an attack and so lose their base and then the game. They then -Yoink- about the game being -Yoink- and the tactics being cheap.
On the other hand, when you play a high level match, you know that they are either going to defend their base adequately or they are going to counter at the same time (base swap). It is very, very rare to see a high level game end after the first rush because everyone knows what they are doing.
Cyborg, I’m afraid that you are going to have to do away with your current misconceptions of this game and how to play it. When you do then you will see this game with new eyes and will truly be able to see it’s depth. If you want any help in defending rushes or even carrying them out (if you’re feeling adventurous) then send me a message over Xbox live.
I wonder if Cyborg solved his problem…
What if you couldn’t pick your leaders because its random and has more and differing leaders. How would you play? Any different? Would the game be more challenging?
Cyborg is playing a different game. Maybe Halo Wars II. It’s a game I like to play as well because it stretches (and stresses) the mind. But in Halo Wars it needs to have its own playlist: No rushing allowed.
> But in Halo Wars it needs to have its own playlist: No rushing allowed.
3v3 Boring Party Teams
Rushing only works to punish greed. Not building hogs as a UNSC is greedy - Not teching while building is greedy. Not teching leaders early or building enough unique units (grunts, brutes) is greedy.
By not building hogs, by not teching leader + uniques you cannot deny greedy tech or expansion plays, nor can you scout offensive plays.
The difference from a 40TS and a 20TS is simply that the 40TS will build hogs 100% of the time and tech his leader + build multiple unique units before his 3rd bless or citadel.
Rushes only work vs greedy opponents. High level games don’t even have “rushes” but rather have a drawn out midgame because while neither side can temple first rush, neither side can rush eco and both sides end up staying on hogs / leader tech + unique units for a long time. In 3s it’s extremely difficult to transition to tanks or not possible on specific maps / combos because if you try for a depo you no longer can protect your covy.
tldr; l2play