Shutout and Legendary BRs

Why does Legendary BRs on Shutout play so much differently than in Halo 2 and Halo 3? The game basically comes down to the entire team camping in the Sniper Tower until the other team takes it over. And then the first team takes it back. Repeat.

This didn’t happen in previous Halo games. I remember in Halo 2 and Halo 3, if your team managed to control the BR tower, Sniper tower, and top lift, you pretty much had control of the entire map, since each of those positions were able to support each other. But in Halo 4, those other positions are near useless. What changed?

Based on the few games I’ve played on it, I think the problem is that the map has been slightly upsized to accommodate Sprint. In upsizing, many of the positions have been moved outside the BR’s effective range, making it much more difficult to support teammates who are in different positions. Thus, the only way for teammates to support each other is for everyone to be in the same place, and the easiest place to defend is the Sniper tower.

Since removing Sprint and downsizing the map is obviously not going to happen, what if we placed a power weapon on top of the BR tower? I think this would promote map movement and hopefully reduce camping in the process.

Definately not a rocket launcher. People would get overkills non stop on that map.

The lack of descope and sprint ruin the map. Especially no descope. Makes sitting on the towers shooting across the map to easy. I played a bunch of Halo 3 last night and descope was sooooooooo much better. You actually had to get closer and engage your enemy.

Interesting feedback. From my experiences, I’d wager that a top blue / Sniper setup is indeed the best way to control the map, which is relatively consistent with Halo 2’s Lockout. Controlling Snipe, Top Blue AND BR Tower in any of the titles is quite a tall order.

Do you expect that adding a power weapon to the BR tower would create a stale-mate (balance the towers)? Or maybe increase map movement by allowing players to re-take Sniper tower? Then, are we back to teams fighting over Snipe tower again until the BR power weapon spawns?

I’m curious if adding a power weapon to BR tower will just delay the inevitable rush / desire to hold the Sniper Tower.

p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:

> p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:

A Light Rifle or maybe the DMR.

> p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:

> Interesting feedback. From my experiences, I’d wager that a top blue / Sniper setup is indeed the best way to control the map, which is relatively consistent with Halo 2’s Lockout. Controlling Snipe, Top Blue AND BR Tower in any of the titles is quite a tall order.
>
> Do you expect that adding a power weapon to the BR tower would create a stale-mate (balance the towers)? Or maybe increase map movement by allowing players to re-take Sniper tower? Then, are we back to teams fighting over Snipe tower again until the BR power weapon spawns?
>
> I’m curious if adding a power weapon to BR tower will just delay the inevitable rush / desire to hold the Sniper Tower.
>
> p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:

Thought so it was played the same way in halo 3 Blackout. You could add a beam rifle or a railgun, but either way one team will just stay on different sides again since there won’t be a reason to move because you already get a power weapon on both sides. I think you could move the sniper to somewhere near the grav lift.

> Interesting feedback. From my experiences, I’d wager that a top blue / Sniper setup is indeed the best way to control the map, which is relatively consistent with Halo 2’s Lockout. Controlling Snipe, Top Blue AND BR Tower in any of the titles is quite a tall order.

> Thought so it was played the same way in halo 3 Blackout.

To make sure I’m not crazy, I watched some Halo 2 Lockout and Halo 3 Blackout gameplay. The main differences seem to be that in Lockout and Blackout, you can see over all of the railings without jumping, and you can BR from across the map. So in previous games, you could say that Sniper Tower was the most important, and the other positions helped you either support your teammates in that position or help overtake it from enemies.

In Shutout, since you can’t effectively BR from those positions anymore, the other positions are not just secondary, they are meaningless; hence no one uses them.

> Do you expect that adding a power weapon to the BR tower would create a stale-mate (balance the towers)? Or maybe increase map movement by allowing players to re-take Sniper tower? Then, are we back to teams fighting over Snipe tower again until the BR power weapon spawns?
>
> I’m curious if adding a power weapon to BR tower will just delay the inevitable rush / desire to hold the Sniper Tower.
>
> p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:

My hope is that if a pickup was on the BR tower, the team holding the Sniper Tower would at least poke their heads out every once in a while to see if it had spawned. Then if it has, at least one player would leave the tower to go get it. If/when he gets in trouble, his team would poke their heads out to support him, making them a little more vulnerable, which would incite battles. Of course, that’s just a theory.

Really, I just want to eliminate the hiding that takes place at the Sniper Tower. When a team controls it, they just wait and barely move.

Perhaps an Overshield? Or maybe just move the Shotgun or Energy Sword? I can’t think of any additional map-appropriate power weapons, and I think an Overshield would provide something advantageous enough to tilt the tables, but not turn them over altogether.

> p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:

I’m always thinking grenade launcher.

In all seriousness, I’m not sure. We already have a sword and shotgun. Any of the explosives would be too powerful in doorways and right angle corners.

Needler wouldn’t be too useful because of the long lines of sight and corners to duck behind.

We already have a sword and shotgun. Putting a scattershot in too would result in situations where all three end up at the sniper tower and make it completely impregnable.

That leaves you with the rail gun. I’m not sure its a good idea, but that’s all I’ve got for you.

I would put an OS top mid. That would enable a push to take over tower and more effectively punish campers.

Yoself’s lockout had an OS top mid and I liked the way it forced map movement.

DMR.

> What changed?

De-scope.

Well, the lack of it.

How about overshield?
Sniper up on snipe tower, OV on BR. If the team wants to control the power spawns, they have to split up at some point.

I feel like any explosive projectile weapon-- incineration cannon, rockets, fuel rod, etc. wouldn’t be fair, as that’d be handing over multi kills to someone who didn’t work for it, and it doesn’t make much sense to have two snipers on such a small map.
OV can still rush sniper and work with their team to clean up the base, and both teams have to try to control both sniper and OV. It’d be more interesting.

> > What changed?
>
> De-scope.
>
> Well, the lack of it.

Sprint. Extended radar range. Lower base movement speed.

> Interesting feedback. From my experiences, I’d wager that a top blue / Sniper setup is indeed the best way to control the map, which is relatively consistent with Halo 2’s Lockout. Controlling Snipe, Top Blue AND BR Tower in any of the titles is quite a tall order.
>
> Do you expect that adding a power weapon to the BR tower would create a stale-mate (balance the towers)? Or maybe increase map movement by allowing players to re-take Sniper tower? Then, are we back to teams fighting over Snipe tower again until the BR power weapon spawns?
>
> I’m curious if adding a power weapon to BR tower will just delay the inevitable rush / desire to hold the Sniper Tower.
>
> p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:

Machine Gun Turret.
Because Halo 2 allowed it. lol

> > p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:
>
> http://i.imgur.com/5ZnP683.png

Lol.

I honestly think having a sword/shotgun already is good, so if adding another I say make it sticky det. Needler would not be as effective, too many turns etc for it.

halo 4s default movement speed was the same as halo 3s. since the “turbo” update, it is 10% faster. the more you know.

> Lower base movement speed.

> p.s. what weapon you thinkin’? :slight_smile:

Actually, I think shutout needs a slight redesign first. Bottom mid is a deathtrap due to the line of sight from Bottom sniper to bottom BR tower. In the Halo 2 version the ramp leading into bottom mid (well, mid mid I guess) from sword was more to the right (when facing BR tower from sniper tower) which cut the sightline into bottom BR, which meant you had to move closer to bottom mid (if not all the way in) in order to get a sightline.

This then made the sword more useful, as it forced the other team closer.

Because of the way the Halo 4 version is designed, it gives the sniper more power on the lower levels, something it didn’t have (or at least, not to that extent) in the Halo 2 version.

I think recreating that change of LoS would be a good place to start in balancing the map, as this would put more emphasis on the Sword by allowing it to more easily combat (or at least get closer to) the ever powerful sniper (more powerful due to the increase in magnetism and lack of de-scope) which should help level the playing field for the two towers.

Snipe tower has the advantage of cover and sniper (not to mention LoS), BR tower has the advantage of height and on the lower levels the advantage in close range engagement (due to the sword) with the shotgun being the balancer (effective against both sides within close range).

However, the Halo 4 version gives the sniper the advantage of range and LoS on both the top and the lower levels, which greatly increases the power of the position. Hence the unbalance in favour of the Snipe tower (while the snipe tower was the power position before as well, it was less so than it is now).

Changing the Line of Sight from Bottom snipe to bottom BR would at least give the sword a bit more of an advantage and hopefully help level the playing field a bit.

If not then it might be time to consider a weapon change up, but I think the re-design should be attempted first.

> halo 4s default movement speed was the same as halo 3s. since the “turbo” update, it is 10% faster. the more you know.
>
>
>
>
> > Lower base movement speed.

And not coincidentally, the Halo 2 version was the most popular one.

An LR or DMR at either BR locations, but then again there already is a Pistol and a Carbine to help with pushing up. Os at top mid could definitely make things interesting and add some needed movement.

I only played the Reach version of this map, and there was definitely a different feel to the games there as well. I actually find a lot of camping bottom mid, with shotgun and sword. Or just a ridiculous amount of running across top mid to inevitable death.

In terms of other power weapons I think either the rail gun or sticky det could do the job nicely.

Thanks for asking Bravo. I am excited to see what you all decide.