I stumbled upon a conversation held by fellow Halo fans away from this site, and it was, to say the least, thought-provoking. The individuals were debating on whether or not Thel should be held accountable for the millions of human deaths he was responsible for, and charged with war crimes. Several real-life examples were used for comparison, most of which stemmed from the events of WW2 and the -Yoink!-. They did not appear to firmly decide one conclusion or the other, and I just sat there mulling it over, as I had never really thought about it.
I suppose if I had to decide, I would say no, but for a reason that’s a bit more pragmatic than what was being offered: Thel isn’t a citizen of any planet governed by humans. Even then, our laws weren’t exactly written with aliens in mind, and while we have a pretty firm idea on Earth what our standards regarding war would be, Sanghelios likely doesn’t play by the same rules (I’d be surprised if they were close.). The Thursday War in particular gave us pretty solid proof that being a “civilian” on Sanghelios (women, children, whatever) doesn’t mean jack when it comes to war. Add religious fervor/orders from a superior to that, and you’ve got a cocktail of “civilians dead, why does it matter?” on the rocks.
Humanity wasn’t exactly following the Geneva Convention to the letter anyway (especially when ONI comes out to play), and I don’t see Gray Team (other than an at-the-time unresolved personal grudge) being confronted about Glyke, where the level of destruction would have been at least somewhat similar.
What do you guys think? Should Thel 'Vadam, or any other prominent Sangheili commander, face criminal charges due to their acts in the Human-Covenant War?
And risk restarting a war with a highly adept general leading a species who would happily fight us to the death? I think we will say he is exonerated until someone else kills him, he dies from natural causes or the UNSC is up to strength to fight the elites and win.
Thel 'Vadam is sort of like Parthenax (Skyrim), in that they’ve both committed horrible atrocities, justifying severe punishment, but they both switched sides before the war ended and were instrumental in helping the “good guys” win (justifying a pardon). Also, they’re improving relations between their species and the others from their positions of leadership, whereas trying to punish them would likely reignite war.
So I say no, Thel 'Vadam should not be prosecuted.
After all he did to keep Humanity safe, i’m sure his crimes are forgotten and was granted a full pardon.
ok but at the same time he played a major role in stopping our species from going extinct so I’d say we’re even. plus he probably has enough support and advanced tech that he could probably punch a hole in the unsc if he wanted to. not win because of the unsc’s shear numbers, spartans, and infinity, but certainly do enough damage to make the banished, insurrections, and covenant splinter groups impossible to put up with. heck if he were to start fighting us the covenant (or atleast it’s largest faction) wouldn’t even be fighting him any more. they might even team up in which case we probably would lose.
Thel is the very Sangheili who convinced his species to make peace with mankind. Punishing him in any way would cause immediate chaos between the two races.
I’m going to say no, he should not be tried. I’ve got a few reasons:
- Without his decision to join the humans after / during the Great Schism, we would not have been able to hold back the flood outbreak in Voi (or at least as effectively) and manage to beat Truth’s fleet over the Ark. From what I recall from Halo 3, we only had a few frigates left for additional operations like attacking the forerunner keyship and I don’t think a few frigates could defeat 10+ covenant cruisers. Also post-war events show that he just wants peace between elites and humans which is one of humanities best options so trying him would just ruin further progress. - As for his war crimes of killing million (maybe billions?) of humans during the war, I don’t know if he would be solely responsible. The prophets were pushing their generals / admirals to wipe out humanity, Thel wasn’t the only admiral / general / Fleetmaster that was glassing human colonies. So really any prophet and shipmaster who carried out a colony’s glassing should be tried (unnecessary destruction and killing civilians). And I think it would be difficult to track down every covenant-era shipmaster and prophet so it might just be ignored and later written in the history books that ________ was a genocidal alien who we had to work with.
- Also are the Geneva conventions still around in 2552? I would think they would be ignored and replaced as new weapons like MACs came out over the centuries (like how the Hauge Conventions were worked around in world war one and later ratified / updated / replaced by other rules of war)
You seriously want to try one of the few Sangheili who repented and atoned for his crimes against Humanity? Who also happens to be the closest thing the Sangheili have to a proper leader who maintains a semblence of stability.
Might as well declare war and make ONI’s wildest dreams come true. Not as though the Created and possibly the return of the Flood are a threat or anything right?
No, I don’t think so. And I’m not sure that Thel has any WW2 comparisons. I’m not a historian or anything but I don’t think there are any records of -Yoink!- generals or concentration camp directors who, part way through the war decided to switch sides and fight with the allies to save Europe. Although several thousand Germans did flee and later joined British and French soldiers in fighting against -Yoink!-.
The only person I can think of who might (maybe, but not really) draw a comparison with Thel is Rommel. Maybe?
But if we’re going to keep talking about WW2 comparisons, maybe it would be worth mentioning that the U.S. did grant asylum (and pardons) to quite a few -Yoink!- or -Yoink!--sympathizing scientists in exchange for their help during the Cold War. Sooooo… shrugs
But sticking with Halo, I’m going to go with what has already been said. Thel’s actions in the last part of the war helped save the human race, and he continues to be an important figure in Human-Sangheili relations. I’m sure among the general public though he’s a very controversial figure, with some willing to look past his actions in the war, and others wanting to hold him (and all Sangheili) accountable.
Yes. That scum murdered on a barbaric scale.
He should be executed.
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> No, I don’t think so. And I’m not sure that Thel has any WW2 comparisons. I’m not a historian or anything but I don’t think there are any records of -Yoink!- generals or concentration camp directors who, part way through the war decided to switch sides and fight with the allies to save Europe. Although several thousand Germans did flee and later joined British and French soldiers in fighting against -Yoink!-.
> The only person I can think of who might (maybe, but not really) draw a comparison with Thel is Rommel. Maybe?
> But if we’re going to keep talking about WW2 comparisons, maybe it would be worth mentioning that the U.S. did grant asylum (and pardons) to quite a few -Yoink!- or -Yoink!--sympathizing scientists in exchange for their help during the Cold War. Sooooo… shrugs
>
> But sticking with Halo, I’m going to go with what has already been said. Thel’s actions in the last part of the war helped save the human race, and he continues to be an important figure in Human-Sangheili relations. I’m sure among the general public though he’s a very controversial figure, with some willing to look past his actions in the war, and others wanting to hold him (and all Sangheili) accountable.
During the battle for Castle Itter,the german
general Josef Gangel as well as part of his artillery group joined togheter with the american group under the commado of Jack Lee in order to defend castle Itter from the approching SS regiment “Götz von Berchelingen”.
So yes it happend that a german general switched sides
Charging Thel for a war crime would probably cause a new war so the UNSC wont do it.
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> > 2535415966174493;9:
> > No, I don’t think so. And I’m not sure that Thel has any WW2 comparisons. I’m not a historian or anything but I don’t think there are any records of -Yoink!- generals or concentration camp directors who, part way through the war decided to switch sides and fight with the allies to save Europe. Although several thousand Germans did flee and later joined British and French soldiers in fighting against -Yoink!-.
> > The only person I can think of who might (maybe, but not really) draw a comparison with Thel is Rommel. Maybe?
> > But if we’re going to keep talking about WW2 comparisons, maybe it would be worth mentioning that the U.S. did grant asylum (and pardons) to quite a few -Yoink!- or -Yoink!--sympathizing scientists in exchange for their help during the Cold War. Sooooo… shrugs
> >
> > But sticking with Halo, I’m going to go with what has already been said. Thel’s actions in the last part of the war helped save the human race, and he continues to be an important figure in Human-Sangheili relations. I’m sure among the general public though he’s a very controversial figure, with some willing to look past his actions in the war, and others wanting to hold him (and all Sangheili) accountable.
>
> During the battle for Castle Itter,the german
> general Josef Gangel as well as part of his artillery group joined togheter with the american group under the commado of Jack Lee in order to defend castle Itter from the approching SS regiment “Götz von Berchelingen”.
> So yes it happend that a german general switched sides
Thank you for teaching me something new today! I never learned about Gangel when I was in school!
> 2535408730995228;11:
> > 2535415966174493;9:
> >
>
> During the battle for Castle Itter,the german
> general Josef Gangel as well as part of his artillery group joined togheter with the american group under the commado of Jack Lee in order to defend castle Itter from the approching SS regiment “Götz von Berchelingen”.
> So yes it happend that a german general switched sides
>
> Charging Thel for a war crime would probably cause a new war so the UNSC wont do it.
Wow! That’s really cool! We never got to read about events like this in my high school “World History”, so everything I’ve learned about WW2 comes from articles I’ve found or movies I’ve seen (I know it’s not the most accurate information, I’m sorry).
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> After all he did to keep Humanity safe, i’m sure his crimes are forgotten and was granted a full pardon.
Nice point. It’s a numbers game really, isn’t it? Is the number of humans who survived, multiplied by what Thel had to do with their survival, higher than the number of those he killed?
Probably, to be fair. I’d never actually considered it quite as simply as that. It’s still one of the things I’m most pissed at the series for though, making me play as the Arbiter.
> 2574155679902465;14:
> > 2533274883624877;4:
> > After all he did to keep Humanity safe, i’m sure his crimes are forgotten and was granted a full pardon.
>
> Nice point. It’s a numbers game really, isn’t it? Is the number of humans who survived, multiplied by what Thel had to do with their survival, higher than the number of those he killed?
>
> Probably, to be fair. I’d never actually considered it quite as simply as that. It’s still one of the things I’m most pissed at the series for though, making me play as the Arbiter.
Thel killed somewhere around 1 billion people, I think. Humanity was a bit angry after that fiasco and ONI wanted to execute him. But, times have changed during those events and the UNSC see’s him as a high valued ally.
I imagine his specific crimes aren’t widely known, I recon many more civilians and SIV’s would revolt.
I would like to see more xenophobic groups attacking the Covies, think that would make for interesting reading.
To add another point to why this is a very bad idea, the UNSC would be grossly overreaching if they applied their criminal justice system to a foreigner without the foreigner’s homeland’s consent – which the UNSC almost certainly would not get. The galaxy would look on this act as an indication that the UNSC asserts dominance over the sangheili, that it thinks its criminal justice system supersedes theirs. Such an act could create a hundred new enemies in a time when the UNSC should just want to try to recuperate from near-extinction.
> 2533274794866970;16:
> I imagine his specific crimes aren’t widely known, I recon many more civilians and SIV’s would revolt.
> I would like to see more xenophobic groups attacking the Covies, think that would make for interesting reading.
I’m actually shocked Sapien Sunrise hasn’t had more of a role in the books as of late. That would be a perfect group to try and stir up chaos with.
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> > 2574155679902465;14:
> > > 2533274883624877;4:
> > > After all he did to keep Humanity safe, i’m sure his crimes are forgotten and was granted a full pardon.
> >
> > Nice point. It’s a numbers game really, isn’t it? Is the number of humans who survived, multiplied by what Thel had to do with their survival, higher than the number of those he killed?
> >
> > Probably, to be fair. I’d never actually considered it quite as simply as that. It’s still one of the things I’m most pissed at the series for though, making me play as the Arbiter.
>
> Thel killed somewhere around 1 billion people, I think. Humanity was a bit angry after that fiasco and ONI wanted to execute him. But, times have changed during those events and the UNSC see’s him as a high valued ally.
Yeah I understand that, I just never really consider the trade off of lives taken vs lives saved. Still unsure that clears him of being a war criminal, but that’s neither here nor there.
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> > 2533274794866970;16:
> > I imagine his specific crimes aren’t widely known, I recon many more civilians and SIV’s would revolt.
> > I would like to see more xenophobic groups attacking the Covies, think that would make for interesting reading.
>
> I’m actually shocked Sapien Sunrise hasn’t had more of a role in the books as of late. That would be a perfect group to try and stir up chaos with.
Agreed. I think it would be a really good story to have groups like them committing violent acts against Covies (basically the Human equivalent of factions like Jul’s) and then having UNSC personnel (Spartans/ODST’s) have to take them down, maybe have conflicts of interest, I imagine many Humans would be indifferent or even sympathise with Sapient Sunrise, civilian and military alike.
This general kumbaya rubbish irks me, it wasn’t some equal conflict, Humanity was on the edge, people would be chomping at the bit to get at the Covies in any (rational or irrational) way they could - forget joining the Innies (although I get it as a protest against the UNSC palling up with the Covies), I think most people would care far less about breaking from the UNSC as they did about boycotting, attacking, lobbying against the Covies. It heart my brain in H5 when Buck (a man that has survived two glassing’s, has had his home planet glassed, has had his squad(s) reconstructed as members have died at the hands of the genocidal Covenant) called the dead Sangheili his ‘brothers’ - I can get that reaction decades after the war, with exposure to the Covies, but a few years after Humanity was nearly murder carte blanche by those split-lipped, snake-necked, Gorilla-bear-barbarian -Yoinks!-? No…